Non-Autistic Siblings

[Mumble]

Probably a bit of a strange question, but I'd be really interested in other experiences/opinions either with children now or with older family members or as adults thinking about their own siblings.

 

My family is very small (parents only children, their parents dead before we were born). My brother is severely autistic and has always needed pretty much 24 hour care, I'm HFA and although only dx'ed early last year all the signs were there looking back, my father I have no contact with, but from what I remember, it seems very likely that he may well be on the spectrum, my mother I'm not sure about, but there are so many things about her that would indicate she's probably on the spectrum.

 

That leaves my 20 year old genius scholarship holding, sociable (I thought) sister. She's always appeared to me to be the only NT in the family and I've always marvelled at how sociable she is, how she gets and uses non-literal language etc. and that she's developed these skills despite having no role-models in the family. When we go out, she is always the one that does the ordering of drinks etc, she likes night-clubs and loud music, perfumes etc. She has always maintained that she was either adopted, or more likely, accidentally switched at birth.

 

I've started to think differently recently however, and a couple of incidents have suggested there may be a spectrumyness about her. I presume I have always assumed her to be very NT (if there are degrees of NTness!! ) because I've been comparing her to me/my family rather than her peers. Recently however, she's be turned down for a fantastic opportunity because of concerns about her social communication skills and her new boyfriend has said to me (not her, she doesn't know this) that there's plenty of oddness about her and has asked why she is so shy. I've never thought she was shy...

 

I believe that much of ASD is genetic (with environmental triggers) and I guess I'm just wondering what your non-autistic children/siblings are like in a house where at least one person is autistic - do they pick up characteristics, how do they learn social niceties etc (or is it just natural to them), have you been concerned about siblings and what have you done about it?

 

I haven't said anything to my sister - I've looked at the AQ and done it from what I know about her, but I doubt she would get a dx - plus we get on so well, and I rely on her so much, I wouldn't want to do anything to ruin that. Is it just a case that her socialisation has been somewhat different and that she's balancing what she's learn from the family norms with what she knows to be social norms? I don't believe in mild autism or autistic traits, so this is really pushing my belief system as I'm not sure what's going on.

 

Any ideas - are non-autistic members of your families closer to NT or closer to autistic ways of behaviour?

[Flora]

Mumble

 

My dd who is considered NT goes through phases of having significant difficulties. I have suspected for a long time that she is very like me and is very very likely AS but is able to mask and cope MOST of the time. I don't think it's going to hinder her hugely but, like me, she is going to always come accross difficulties. However, I think she's very lucky because I am aware of this and support her accordingly; unlike me who, although I have a great mum, she's very hostile to the suggestion that I am on the spectrum and instead puts it down to me being disorganised/scatty/stuborn/###### minded/lazy/dysfunctional.... take your pick depending on the situation!

 

Hope this helps.

 

Flora

[harmony]

Hi Mumble

really interesting. My 3 kids DD age 12 has AS although only dx recently she has always been very As and was dx with dyspraxia at 5. my son age 9 NT. YET.... likes order has obsessions. is considerd to be at a 12 year olds level of maths. Could tell you every detail about star wars known to man. He does not have melt downs or any social phobias (a little shy perhaps) or any other unusual behaviours, and is popular at school. other NT son age 3. very forward with speach, motor skills, numbers. YET.... likes to put all his possesions in straight lines, and likes his food best when it is symetrical on his plate. Other than that very typical 3 yr old. I am dyslexic and have always had poor fine motor skills. I have 2 cousins with autism, and am convinced my mum has some aspergers traits.

On the other side of the family my Hubby never can throw anything out, fidgets constently, and is dreadful in social situations, oftern says things others would consider innapropriate.

So my kids get a double whammy.

I am 99% convinced there is a genetic link to AS and autism, although most of the family seem fine to the outside world, I can see the traits in all of them. They maybe mild but they are there I think. My daughters consultant says "there is a little bit of AS in us all"

love Harmony x

[LizK]

I have two and wonder about my youngest at times. He is not autistic, sociable, good communication, social imagination etc but he is not quite right either! He is very influenced by his older brother and I wonder how much of growing up with an older autistic sibling influences how younger NT children develop. He plays in a different way because if how he sees his brother plays and DS1 SALT commented recently that you could tell DS2 had an autistic sibling from the way he speaks. However there are other things he does which he has not picked up from his brother but which you could class at 'autistic' - can be quite literal at times, rigid, pernickety, gets stress if things aren't just so. Whether it is just his age (3) or a smattering of autism I don't know. Mabye all NTs have a dash at autism and that's just what I'm aware of because I'm in the know. The genes are definitely there on both sides of the family so it's not unreasonable that he might have acquired some without having the full set. I have a friend with three children, two older on the spectrum and she has simialr concerns about ehr youngest not knowing whether it is nature, nurture or something else

 

As you probably gather I do believe in autistic traits mainly from what I see around me! I see autism as a spectrum that someone can move around on and that fluidity extended off the spectrum too. I'm not convinced there is a definite dividing line between ASD and NT where you are suddenly ASD or NT. I think that there is a fluid grey area between ASD and NT where you can have traits without fullblown ASD and this is where I think DS2 probably fits. I think for my son whether he has traits or not, he currently functions perfectly well wired up so where he is is really not an issue

 

Interesting topic!

 

Lx

[baddad]

Hi mumble -

 

I think genetics do play a big part along with the environmental/external triggers too... BUT:

I think maybe you're looking a bit too closely and can't see the wood for the trees.

No behaviours are exclusively autistic - everything about autism (from flapping, through hypersensitivites, obsessional 'focus', social insecurities & inabilities etc) is also seen within the neurotypical population and varies in degree from person to person. Throw enough autistic trait's at anyone, and extend the definitions a little to accommodate them and you 'have' autism. So it's not so much a case that some people have a 'predisposition' but that some people have more of a predisposition

One of my personal bugbears is that when somebody has a dx of autism everything about them (well, certainly everything 'negative') becomes part of that autism, regardless of the fact that the 'trait' being identified can be just as easily identified within members of the non-autistic community to a greater or lesser degree. Social reticence is a prime example, but so are 'special interests' and something like 'limited imagination' (which is actually not something I associate with autism at all, BTW)...

I had a bit of a bust up with someone I know very well who has an autistic teenage son and a slightly older neurotypical daughter. The reason - we were discussing the daughter (who we'll call 'Jill') and he was moaning about how selfish, inconsiderate, argumentative and bl00dy-minded she was - which was fine, until he added 'I sometimes think she has a pinch of autism too' i then asked 'Well is "Jack" (, selfish?' he said, 'no - not normally'

I said 'Is jack inconsiderate?' he said, 'Well he can be, but not if you point it out to him'

I said 'Is jack argumentative?' he said 'Well, sometimes, but not in the same way Jill is'

I said 'Is Jack bl00dy-minded', he said, 'not generally - only about his obssessions'.

So..... I said, 'well what makes you think Jill might "have a pinch of autism" too?'

He said, 'Well, she can be so selfish, inconsiderate, argu-......'

And that's someone who should know better!

 

As for the 'family life' thing... well, there's no such thing as 'normal' - it's completely subjective... If you have a family (or couple) where the behaviour of one member is 'ABO' (active but odd) but it's not overly problematic then that becomes the norm. It's only people outside of the dynamic who make judgements about it.

If two people meet, and they both have similar 'communication problems' (i.e. don't make eye contact appropriately, don't 'mirror' spontaneaously etc) they are unlikely to recognise that 'deficit' in the other - it's a non issue, whether AS or otherwise

 

Hope that's helpful

 

BD

[mariaterisa]

t

 

 

 

Any ideas - are non-autistic members of your families closer to NT or closer to autistic ways of behaviour?

 

Gosh..what a hugely fascinating topic.....i have spent the last couple of yrs wondering about the asd range of disorders ever since charlie our youngest was diagnosed 3yrs ago with as....about a yr ago.....i found this asp test online and asked my hubby to do the test given the fact that the local asd dr...dr selby had hinted that it was passed from father to sons..mainly....well M took the test and scored very obviously high on the as rating...he admits...social niceties are not his thing and over the years since i have been with him..i have got used to losing quite a few friends because of his rudeness or apparent and obvious way he shows someone he doesnt like them.....he will cross the road rather than wave and say hello to someone..even family...yet...he his admirable in so many ways...a great hubby..good father and a Sir Allan of a business man..driven,focused and extremely successful.....he ,despite his traits has afforded us a good way of life with ,i must admit,my assistance as i am always here for him and his moods.Now then...our older boys do have odd moments.....the way they wash...their methods of order or lack of it.....indeed..i agree with the doc who says that we all have a degree of the complaint...i ,have always been sociable and up front...but from reading the huge range of syptoms on asd,i find that there are quite a few i can tick myself.....hey...who is to say that...asd is the next evolutionary stage of the human being....leading to that 3rd eye and mind texting....???? now..you'll know what i am on about if you ever watched the planet of the apes films...the one with the super humans from the future...lol..maria

[mossgrove]

This is a huge and potentially troublesome topic so I will tread carefully!

 

Much of what I see in out family and when I spend time with Autistic Children and their families leads me to believe that it isn't as simple as some of the family are Autistic and some of them are not. Personally I have an open mind, I do not think I would qualify for a diagnosis, but I always score somewhere around the NT/AS borderline whenever I do AQ type tests, and there are things about me that I recognose from people that do have an ASD diagnosis.

 

There is an alternative view of the world that says that some people are are Autistic, and some people are not, and it is unhelpful to describe anyone as more or less Autistic, they simply have other things about them that may or may not be related to their Autism and mean that they experience greater or kesser degrees of difficulty as they go about their lives, and I think this is what BD is describing. (Apologies if this is not the case). The difficulty with this view of events is, it seems to me, rules put the idea that any of the traits/behaviour demonstrated by so many family members of Autistic people are anything more than coincidence as Autism is, by this definition, something you do or don't have.

 

My view is that people have unique combinations of traits behaviors. Some of these people meet the criteria to be described as Autistic and some don't. But I don't think it means that all people who are not diagnosed as Autistic can be lumped tpgether in a single category labelled 'NT' any more than individuals who are Autistic can be lumped together in a single category labelled 'Autistic.

 

Simon

[Kinda]

Hi Mumble

 

Interesting post and had me thinking. I have a son but due to the issues he had we never went for any more children due to difficulty coping with one and thinking we were bad parents and not suitable to bring another child into the world. I guess this sounds pretty dramatic but when so many are telling you are bad parents you believe them, how else would we know whether we were good parents or not.

 

The reason for my posting is that just recently I asked if AS is hereditary and its had me thinking, I have relationship issues at work and find I don't seem to fit in with the others. I'm accused of being direct with my communication and I seem to be out of step regarding not being in the "club". I also feel that most of them are uncaring about others and they also do not seem to care about what is right but rather what suits the "club".

 

This means I'm somewhat isolated

 

Anyway not sure if this answers your question but I guess I was linking myself as having some slight/possible AS traits with my son. I do realise that relationship issues alone does not mean I have AS traits but there are other areas that touch slightly on AS but they are so slight but it would explain a lot, but then perhaps we all have slight traits to a lesser or greater degree which may fall in line with Baddad's posting.

Edited April 11, 2008 by Kinda

[mariaterisa]

I have had to return to this topic as it has had me thinking about all sorts of things to do with life,people,education system etc....the kids are doing their own thing so i can stay posting a while longer.....the thing is....i actually believe that there are quite a few in the teaching profession who are spending a lot of their time...recklessly diagnosing "challenging kids" and feeling the need to label them far too readilly...it is a s if..." ahh..now her is a naughty lad...lets tag him with adhd or asp....ahh..here's a little girl whi is awkwardly shy...or the kid that is too slow academically...' just bag 'em up and label em...autistic......i actually saw this happen in epidemic proportions at my middle sons primary school and before i knew anything about asd.....it was almost like a witch hunt.....I was on the church parish council at the time and it being a church school(r.c.)'''over my 3 yrs...several parents came to me and we would wonder why there is this insistance these days to label and tarnish and blame all of humankinds failings on autism...for crying out loud...it is one big cop out.....hey...in my view..many nt people need help!!!...whereas...asd people need help coping with them!!!...But yes...i agree....we are to quick to highlight the negative points and label autimatically AS...rather than.....well this child isnt very creative...tgis child isnt bright but has a good heart....this child is a loner...but hey did you see her art piece......some of these kids who are being misdiagnosed were similar to those we went to school with 30/40 yrs ago....yes there was the ruler,the blackboard rubber throwing, the dunses hat.....but there wasnt this fixation to claim infinite knowlede on asd and brand.....only the other day...someone was asking how chas is getting on...and i was claiming his difficulties....then...she starts to claim her son is simila...could he be autistic.....???oh dear......didnt realize it was the latest fashion trend!!!....maria x

[mossgrove]

There is a world of difference between having a teacher, friend, colleage or fellow parent say that they think a child might be autistic and having a diagnosis of Autism. Off the cuff remarks are not a diagnosis.

 

Amongst the parents I have met none has undertaken the diagnostic process lightly and very few have found it easy.Getting a diagnosis as an adult is even harder. As a parent of two (diagnosed) children with Autism I find your sweeping generalisations about how children come to be diagnosed with Autism quite offensive.

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

I have had to return to this topic as it has had me thinking about all sorts of things to do with life,people,education system etc....the kids are doing their own thing so i can stay posting a while longer.....the thing is....i actually believe that there are quite a few in the teaching profession who are spending a lot of their time...recklessly diagnosing "challenging kids" and feeling the need to label them far too readilly...it is a s if..." ahh..now her is a naughty lad...lets tag him with adhd or asp....ahh..here's a little girl whi is awkwardly shy...or the kid that is too slow academically...' just bag 'em up and label em...autistic......i actually saw this happen in epidemic proportions at my middle sons primary school and before i knew anything about asd.....it was almost like a witch hunt.....I was on the church parish council at the time and it being a church school(r.c.)'''over my 3 yrs...several parents came to me and we would wonder why there is this insistance these days to label and tarnish and blame all of humankinds failings on autism...for crying out loud...it is one big cop out.....hey...in my view..many nt people need help!!!...whereas...asd people need help coping with them!!!...But yes...i agree....we are to quick to highlight the negative points and label autimatically AS...rather than.....well this child isnt very creative...tgis child isnt bright but has a good heart....this child is a loner...but hey did you see her art piece......some of these kids who are being misdiagnosed were similar to those we went to school with 30/40 yrs ago....yes there was the ruler,the blackboard rubber throwing, the dunses hat.....but there wasnt this fixation to claim infinite knowlede on asd and brand.....only the other day...someone was asking how chas is getting on...and i was claiming his difficulties....then...she starts to claim her son is simila...could he be autistic.....???oh dear......didnt realize it was the latest fashion trend!!!....maria x

[mariaterisa]

There is a world of difference between having a teacher, friend, colleage or fellow parent say that they think a child might be autistic and having a diagnosis of Autism. Off the cuff remarks are not a diagnosis.

 

Amongst the parents I have met none has undertaken the diagnostic process lightly and very few have found it easy.Getting a diagnosis as an adult is even harder. As a parent of two (diagnosed) children with Autism I find your sweeping generalisations about how children come to be diagnosed with Autism quite offensive.

 

Simon

 

Simon...I am sorry you have found my comments offensive...i dont see how....i am in fact agreeing with you...that is precisely my point but maybe not written well.....yes...there is a huge difference between a proper diagnosis and a fleeting comment or suggestion from a gp,teacher,friend etc....it is exactly this that i was rattling on about and how distasteful it all is.....please ,accaept my apologies for not putting myself across correctly.Also,when my youngest was diagnosed...believe me i did not take it lightly...it consumes my life....i spend hours each day...learning about aspergers and understanding my son...who as it happens...is my inspiration....

[mariaterisa]

...but there wasnt this fixation to claim infinite knowlede on asd and brand.....only the other day...someone was asking how chas is getting on...and i was claiming his difficulties....then...she starts to claim her son is simila...could he be autistic.....???oh dear......didnt realize it was the latest fashion trend!!!....maria x

 

Simon....i have re read my post and i believe you may have thought that this was offensive...i was actually being sarcastic in this final sentence re the trend for non profs..ie teachers,family,friends etc to claim diagnosos knowledge or for people to assume a diagnosos of their own child and when this friend of mine was echoing similar difficulties with her child from what i had said about charlie...i was angry with her...because her son does not have a diagnosis and is not having difficulties like my son is....it was just her throw away comment that maybe her son has autism....she should not have said a remark so flippantly....well hope this will clear up what i ahve said...maria

[Bard]

If you have a family (or couple) where the behaviour of one member is 'ABO' (active but odd) but it's not overly problematic then that becomes the norm. It's only people outside of the dynamic who make judgements about it.

BD

 

Oh, I love that definition! Can I keep it? Please?

It so suits all the members of my immediate family, and you are right. In most cases it's those not in the family that make negative judgements about it.

 

So, I have a daughter, 4 years older than B who is a quirky and self-contained individual. She is able, has some people skills, but they are not a strength, and has particular little mannerisms that are hers, and cause her some discomfort and distress if they are tampered with.

Do I think she's spectrum? No. Have I been asked if she has OCD? yes. Do I think she has? No

 

But do I think she's ABO? Yes.

 

 

If you want to ask more questions about this, give me a pm Mumble.

Thanks Baddad!

[baddad]

Hi all/Mossgrove -

Now I'm confused too!

There is an alternative view of the world that says that some people are are Autistic, and some people are not, and it is unhelpful to describe anyone as more or less Autistic, they simply have other things about them that may or may not be related to their Autism and mean that they experience greater or kesser degrees of difficulty as they go about their lives, and I think this is what BD is describing. (Apologies if this is not the case). The difficulty with this view of events is, it seems to me, rules put the idea that any of the traits/behaviour demonstrated by so many family members of Autistic people are anything more than coincidence as Autism is, by this definition, something you do or don't have.

 

Dunno if I've misunderstood, but I wasn't trying to say that autism is a 'standalone' condition and that everything else was the result of co-morbids, just that autism is 'more than the sum of it's parts'.

I totally agree that there can be shared 'family traits', and that some of these may be apparent in autistic and non-autistic members of that family, but that doesn't imply that they are either 'autistic' traits or 'non autistic' traits, they're just shared traits. They could arise from neurological similarities, genetic pre-dispostion etc, but could equally arise from other external factors like social status, upbringing, peer influence etc and everything else that contributes to a family dynamic.

So it's possible that a whole family could be (i.e.) socially 'shy', but without that implying that it is an 'autistic' or 'NT' trait but just a family trait that's shared by both the austistic and non-autistic members of the family.

Autism, IMO is (to paraphrase a description mumble posted) a 'significant clinical impairment' that can only be concluded from the overall effects they have on the individual, rather than the component parts that contribute to that overall effect. In isolation, the component parts are just part of the human condition, and are no more 'autistic' per se than i.e. poor memory is alzheimers, or impulsivity ADHD... The thing that worries me, is that it's easy to say of (i.e.) a bad temper 'Oh that's part of his/her autism', when in fact it has more to do with a lack of expectation and 'anger management' skills. Of course, it might be related to autism, and it might be related to stress and other things that autism tends to compromise, but it's not only that, otherwise all autistic people would be the same and no NT people would ever display those traits at all!

 

Mariaterisa - I totally agree about the 'casual adoption' of autism as a term used to describe (usually negative) perfectly natural behaviours that all people display: which is exactly the point I was trying to make with the exchange Ii recounted above (Jill 'has a pinch'...)

I think autism is now becoming a catch-all 'buzz word' in the same way that ADHD did a few years ago and dyslexia before that... the annnoying thing is, the people who do use it in that way usually do so to absolve themselves of any responsibility for their child's (or their own, or their partner's) actions. And in the same way, it undermines those who genuinely do have the condition(s) by association...

 

Bard - If you're refering to the 'ABO' bit of my post I'm amazed you haven't come across the term before! It's one of the original Lorna Wing definitions along with 'aloof' and 'overly formal'... Yes, I agree, it is a perfect term in many cases - I actually proposed a couple of years ago a T-Shirt campain based around it (maybe in the batcave?) I still intend getting some made up with the word ACTIVE... on the front and (but odd) on the back, the front in some really 'sporty' font and the back in geeky 'puter text or 1st grader scrawl

If you just meant, the 'outside dynamic judgements' bit that's me!

Either way, you're welcome, but don't blame me if LW sues!

 

BD

[mariaterisa]

Hi all/Mossgrove -

Now I'm confused too!

 

 

Dunno if I've misunderstood, but I wasn't trying to say that autism is a 'standalone' condition and that everything else was the result of co-morbids, just that autism is 'more than the sum of it's parts'.

I totally agree that there can be shared 'family traits', and that some of these may be apparent in autistic and non-autistic members of that family, but that doesn't imply that they are either 'autistic' traits or 'non autistic' traits, they're just shared traits. They could arise from neurological similarities, genetic pre-dispostion etc, but could equally arise from other external factors like social status, upbringing, peer influence etc and everything else that contributes to a family dynamic.

So it's possible that a whole family could be (i.e.) socially 'shy', but without that implying that it is an 'autistic' or 'NT' trait but just a family trait that's shared by both the austistic and non-autistic members of the family.

Autism, IMO is (to paraphrase a description mumble posted) a 'significant clinical impairment' that can only be concluded from the overall effects they have on the individual, rather than the component parts that contribute to that overall effect. In isolation, the component parts are just part of the human condition, and are no more 'autistic' per se than i.e. poor memory is alzheimers, or impulsivity ADHD... The thing that worries me, is that it's easy to say of (i.e.) a bad temper 'Oh that's part of his/her autism', when in fact it has more to do with a lack of expectation and 'anger management' skills. Of course, it might be related to autism, and it might be related to stress and other things that autism tends to compromise, but it's not only that, otherwise all autistic people would be the same and no NT people would ever display those traits at all!

 

Mariaterisa - I totally agree about the 'casual adoption' of autism as a term used to describe (usually negative) perfectly natural behaviours that all people display: which is exactly the point I was trying to make with the exchange Ii recounted above (Jill 'has a pinch'...)

I think autism is now becoming a catch-all 'buzz word' in the same way that ADHD did a few years ago and dyslexia before that... the annnoying thing is, the people who do use it in that way usually do so to absolve themselves of any responsibility for their child's (or their own, or their partner's) actions. And in the same way, it undermines those who genuinely do have the condition(s) by association...

 

Bard - If you're refering to the 'ABO' bit of my post I'm amazed you haven't come across the term before! It's one of the original Lorna Wing definitions along with 'aloof' and 'overly formal'... Yes, I agree, it is a perfect term in many cases - I actually proposed a couple of years ago a T-Shirt campain based around it (maybe in the batcave?) I still intend getting some made up with the word ACTIVE... on the front and (but odd) on the back, the front in some really 'sporty' font and the back in geeky 'puter text or 1st grader scrawl

If you just meant, the 'outside dynamic judgements' bit that's me!

Either way, you're welcome, but don't blame me if LW sues!

 

BD

 

Oh wow BD..you are a gentleman and a scholar sir..i have just read the above and that clinches it perfectly and explains 100% what i was saying. or trying to say!...goodness ,have only been around a few days and already annoyed someone..Simon...SO SORRY.. but what you have said BD is so true and my total sentiments...as for traits etc....i go along with the pre disp and genetic and nurture rule of thumb, for an awful lot of characteristics, in my family,immediate and otherwise.,.....impatience, too much sensitivity,moodyness and at times fastidious and pernikity. to name a few..have nothing to do with asd but they appear as traits in my dad,my mum,siblings etc etc as genetic,upbringing etc. and in the good old days...one would hear a parent say..."ohh..your'e just like your father...or your aunti..she does it that way!!!'....n'est ce pas?..okay,thanks once agian,maria

thanks so much for continual good advice..mariaterisa

[Bard]

Bard - If you're refering to the 'ABO' bit of my post I'm amazed you haven't come across the term before! It's one of the original Lorna Wing definitions along with 'aloof' and 'overly formal'... Yes, I agree, it is a perfect term in many cases - I actually proposed a couple of years ago a T-Shirt campain based around it (maybe in the batcave?) I still intend getting some made up with the word ACTIVE... on the front and (but odd) on the back, the front in some really 'sporty' font and the back in geeky 'puter text or 1st grader scrawl

If you just meant, the 'outside dynamic judgements' bit that's me!

Either way, you're welcome, but don't blame me if LW sues!

 

BD

 

Do not forget how new I am to all this! I've not read anything by Laura Wing, joining this forum was one of the first steps I took to find out more about ASDs in a wider sense, rather than just me and B and the world.

 

I'd buy a Tshirt!

[Karen A]

Oh wow BD..you are a gentleman and a scholar sir..i have just read the above and that clinches it perfectly and explains 100% what i was saying. or trying to say!...goodness ,have only been around a few days and already annoyed someone..Simon...SO SORRY.. but what you have said BD is so true and my total sentiments...as for traits etc....i go along with the pre disp and genetic and nurture rule of thumb, for an awful lot of characteristics, in my family,immediate and otherwise.,.....impatience, too much sensitivity,moodyness and at times fastidious and pernikity. to name a few..have nothing to do with asd but they appear as traits in my dad,my mum,siblings etc etc as genetic,upbringing etc. and in the good old days...one would hear a parent say..."ohh..your'e just like your father...or your aunti..she does it that way!!!'....n'est ce pas?..okay,thanks once agian,maria

thanks so much for continual good advice..mariaterisa

 

Mariaterisa...I shall not comment on your views of BD....it would not be appropriate for me to challenge your opinion of another Moderator....but time will tell as you say you have only been around a few days.

 

I read your list of characteristics of your family.....they sound to me like traits of one specific condition.I could best describe the condition as the ''living in close proximity to another individual for longer than a very brief period of time '' condition or ''human condition''.

If I am singularly difficult to get along with or live with people who are then I will now discover that noone else here could be described in any of the ways above. Karen.

[pearl]

I have heard of, and like, the phrase "autistic cousins" to describe those who are a lickle bit spectrumy but dont quite fit the bill. Lots of peeps, both from mine & Mr P's family, would fit this description.

 

I know you hate the use of "mild" & "traits" Mumble, to the point where I avoid using them, I know that AS has an anything but "mild" effect on your life. But if autism is a spectrum, at the very end of this spectrum perhaps there are those with traits, for want of a better description, not enough to be dx'd & not enough to prevent them from functioning effectively? I really dont know & dont want to upset anyone, but its certainly helped me to understand some of my family members by thinking of it this way.

[baddad]

I'd buy a Tshirt!

 

Perhaps they could be a fashion statement for Greenwich!

Mine would have to say 'I used to be active but now I'm just odd'

Ben's would say 'Overactive but odd'

Hev's would say 'Over-Reactive' but odd'

And all those with coloured lenses could have 'refractive but odd'

Feel free to make your own up

 

Sorry - digressing again DON'T make free to feel your own up feel free to make your own up

Edited April 11, 2008 by baddad

[LizK]

. In isolation, the component parts are just part of the human condition, and are no more 'autistic' per se than i.e. poor memory is alzheimers, or impulsivity ADHD... The thing that worries me, is that it's easy to say of (i.e.) a bad temper 'Oh that's part of his/her autism', when in fact it has more to do with a lack of expectation and 'anger management' skills. Of course, it might be related to autism, and it might be related to stress and other things that autism tends to compromise, but it's not only that, otherwise all autistic people would be the same and no NT people would ever display those traits at all!

 

Tony Attwood I think described humans as being a 100 piece jigsaw. We all have 20 or 30 pieces of autism, some of us with more 'traits' . It is only when you have say over 50 pieces of autism that it becomes clinically significant etc

 

I think autism is now becoming a catch-all 'buzz word' in the same way that ADHD did a few years ago and dyslexia before that... the annnoying thing is, the people who do use it in that way usually do so to absolve themselves of any responsibility for their child's (or their own, or their partner's) actions. And in the same way, it undermines those who genuinely do have the condition(s) by association...

 

BD

 

Equally too I dislike how autism (or any condition for that matter) is sometimes used as a 'get out of jail free' card to absolve themselves or the child of any responsibility. I am not for one moment discounting the immense difficulties parents can have bringing up a child with ASD or indeed living with ASD and the need for understanding and support. However I think that having a diagnosis of ASD is not all encompassing accounting for everything and there can still be parenting problems or behavioural issues, personality traits that are separate to the autism. Autism is a reason not an excuse. I particularly dislike the 'I'm not naughty I'm autistic' type slogans because my son like most children can most definitely be both. Maybe 'I'm NOT just naughty, I'm autistic' might be more appropriate!

 

Lx

[Kathryn]

My view is that people have unique combinations of traits behaviors. Some of these people meet the criteria to be described as Autistic and some don't. But I don't think it means that all people who are not diagnosed as Autistic can be lumped together in a single category labelled 'NT' any more than individuals who are Autistic can be lumped together in a single category labelled 'Autistic.

 

Yup, I agree totally. I've been thinking about this a lot recently. I share a lot of characteristics with my daughter L: our early development, social anxiety and disorganisation, for example but I'm NT and she isn't. My son and dh both NT, share different characteristics with L: they all stim, whereas I don't. All four of us are not particularly well coordinated, we all share a love of reading and writing and are less good at numbers. All of us tick a few boxes: none of us tick exactly the same combination. There are definite family traits but are they "autistic" traits?

 

L's dx has given me some insight into why I do some of the things I do, but I would still feel very uncomfortable with describing myself as either AS or even "spectrummy" - it just doesn't fit me. But then again, neither does the NT label exactly.

 

K x

[Mumble]

Fascinating discussion, thanks everyone

 

Maybe I should clarify the mild/traits thing - I don't like the idea of people saying they have (or their kiddies have) 'mild autism' (but I'm not saying all autistics are the same, definitely not) I think, for one reason at least it's very easy to slip between that and an 'but I/everyone does that' which then diminishes the problems the ASD individual faces. Someone (not here) has recently done this to me, saying 'well everyone has those problems' and they even had the audacity to say they weren't dismissing my issues - well what exactly were they aiming to do in saying everyone had those issues - make me feel better about myself??

 

Anyway, I digress. I'm thinking that thinking about characteristics might be useful. As has been said above all the characteristics of autism are characteristics of being human - they may just be more pronounced in an ASD individual and manifest themselves in more inappropriate (according to socially accepted ways) times. I think having a dx myself and wanting to understand myself so hence reading a lot, attending lectures, talking to OGBs, etc. has made me very very aware of these different characteristics and so I hone in on them when I see them. Of course, what happens then is that you see the characteristic and not the person. And you start to look for other characteristics and ignore (maybe unconsciously) what doesn't fit what you think you might be seeing.

 

My sister isn't on the spectrum, it doesn't fit with her large circle of friends and acquaintances, relationships, enjoyment of typical student type stuff, liking loud stuff, language use etc. Maybe she is shy (but I really can't see this) and maybe she has social communication issues (again, I don't see this - but the situation it came up in is a competitive one where students she was competing with have many more language role models in their home). In fact, if anything, she's done remarkably well to be as well-adjusted as she is. And so what if her toast has to be cut in triangles - it tastes better that way anyway.

 

I should at some time break it to her gently though that she does have some family traits, she may well not have been switched at birth and there isn't a sane family out there looking for their missing daughter...

[mariaterisa]

Mariaterisa...I shall not comment on your views of BD....it would not be appropriate for me to challenge your opinion of another Moderator....but time will tell as you say you have only been around a few days.

 

I read your list of characteristics of your family.....they sound to me like traits of one specific condition.I could best describe the condition as the ''living in close proximity to another individual for longer than a very brief period of time '' condition or ''human condition''.

If I am singularly difficult to get along with or live with people who are then I will now discover that noone else here could be described in any of the ways above. Karen.

 

cant quite see what you are getting at.....i'll just go and find the dunce's cap! ..it obviously fits me well as far as this part of the thread goes...

[Karen A]

cant quite see what you are getting at.....i'll just go and find the dunce's cap! ..it obviously fits me well as far as this part of the thread goes...

 

Hi.If the bit you didn't get was about BD...sorry I was been cheeky regarding him being a gentleman and a scholar.

 

If the bit you didn't get was the second bit....I was attempting to say that all of the things you describe ''impatience, too much sensitivity,moodyness and at times fastidious and pernikity'' are things that probably annoy most people about other people they live with for very long.

I did not put it very well but it was certainly not intended to suggest that I thought it fitted you.... Karen.

[Tally]

It's been interesting looking at my own family since learning about AS and autism and my own diagnosis. I believe my dad probably has AS too. Initially I thought that my mum has no traces of autism whatsoever, but she relates quite strongly to the sensory processing difficulties associated with autism. Her brother also has many autistic traits, I believe he would qualify for diagnosis. Her mother is somewhat eccentric and aloof, I would say she has an autistic-type personality, but would not be diagnosed as being on the spectrum.

 

Recently on an animal behaviour forum, I was involved in a discussion of why a cat is very frightened of certain noises. The cat previously lived with an autistic toddler. Everyone jumped on the word autistic and assumed the child must have screeched a lot and harmed the cat. No one even considered the possibility that the autistic toddler did not cause the cat's fear, or that if she did it was simply because she was a toddler. When I tried to suggest it they all ignored the possibility, but apologised for offending me. When a non-autistic (and therefore reasonable) person came along and suggested the very same, they all realised that autism does not necessarily mean abusive to cats. It's very frustrating to see everything blamed on autism.

[mariaterisa]

It's been interesting looking at my own family since learning about AS and autism and my own diagnosis. I believe my dad probably has AS too. Initially I thought that my mum has no traces of autism whatsoever, but she relates quite strongly to the sensory processing difficulties associated with autism. Her brother also has many autistic traits, I believe he would qualify for diagnosis. Her mother is somewhat eccentric and aloof, I would say she has an autistic-type personality, but would not be diagnosed as being on the spectrum.

 

Recently on an animal behaviour forum, I was involved in a discussion of why a cat is very frightened of certain noises. The cat previously lived with an autistic toddler. Everyone jumped on the word autistic and assumed the child must have screeched a lot and harmed the cat. No one even considered the possibility that the autistic toddler did not cause the cat's fear, or that if she did it was simply because she was a toddler. When I tried to suggest it they all ignored the possibility, but apologised for offending me. When a non-autistic (and therefore reasonable) person came along and suggested the very same, they all realised that autism does not necessarily mean abusive to cats. It's very frustrating to see everything blamed on autism.

 

Yes, i can see what you are saying here and have heard similar conversations myself.. iT is a strange thing when you are touched quite profoundly by the subject of autism...when i first heard the word asphergers by some "lay" people..when chas was 2...nursery,fellow parents etc...i was confused,ignorant and extremely emotional because to me..he was nt ish but a bit quirky...a strange but humourous little fellow..at times enigmatic and like a magnet drawing you to him,an old man full of knowlege on one extreme then a flapping bird making monotone noises of babble when he would go into himself...since that time and his formal diagnosis i have had little support or knowledge given to me....excepting a few scRaps of photo copied tel numbers, the tony attwood books as a reading matter suggestion and some web sites.So i have endevoured to learn as much as i can.Anyway..have travelled the usa web sites and many devoted ASD sites and decided to take some things with a pinch of salt and devour as much authentic info as poss..if only to be on charlies wavelength and to also understand my husband.Now,the thing is..before i read all the info..i blamed my medication and illness (SLE/lupus). but now i can appreciate that this probably had no effect on my unborn child,however because of the snippets that i have read..ie symptoms..i have wondered if i myself am somewhere under the umbrella too. When I was a kiddie...i was obsessive about my school uniform...i would spend hours ironing in the plaits of my school skirt....perfection is an understatement....drawing people was a fixation...and i couldnt make a mistake...it was disaster...try,try again didnt come into my way of thinking...if it wasnt right 1st time..then forget it....eating food..if someone dared drink from my cup or take a morsel from my plate..that was it..contamination.....used to be obsessed with white socks....even if i didnt have a clean pair for the foll day..i would wash a pair and wear them damp thenext day...didnt matter that they were wet..just white!!!...mum used to call me fastidious.....obviously i have changed now...but one wonders if i had been born in the last 10 yrs and my mum spoke of my fads with a gp....what would be the result........maria

[baddad]

Equally too I dislike how autism (or any condition for that matter) is sometimes used as a 'get out of jail free' card to absolve themselves or the child of any responsibility. I am not for one moment discounting the immense difficulties parents can have bringing up a child with ASD or indeed living with ASD and the need for understanding and support. However I think that having a diagnosis of ASD is not all encompassing accounting for everything and there can still be parenting problems or behavioural issues, personality traits that are separate to the autism. Autism is a reason not an excuse. I particularly dislike the 'I'm not naughty I'm autistic' type slogans because my son like most children can most definitely be both. Maybe 'I'm NOT just naughty, I'm autistic' might be more appropriate!

 

Lx

 

Hi Liz - yep, 100% agree, and I apologise if my earlier post gave the impression I was just citing the 'pinch-of' parents as guilty of hiding under the autism umbrella. A quick mung through some of my other posts will show this isn't the case! Kids is kids, and much as we like to kid ourselves they are little innocents the fact is their 'Id monsters' are actually bigger than ours because they haven't yet got ego and super-ego on board to help in the negotiations.

 

[baddad]

Hi.If the bit you didn't get was about BD...sorry I was been cheeky regarding him being a gentleman and a scholar.

 

This must have been doubly confusing for you, because i am, obviously, both so it was a 'compound irony' situation. the big problem here is that the forum is popalated by fillastines, speshally the uvver mods, tak know notiss - there just jellus

[pookie170]

Maybe I should clarify the mild/traits thing - I don't like the idea of people saying they have (or their kiddies have) 'mild autism' (but I'm not saying all autistics are the same, definitely not) I think, for one reason at least it's very easy to slip between that and an 'but I/everyone does that' which then diminishes the problems the ASD individual faces. Someone (not here) has recently done this to me, saying 'well everyone has those problems' and they even had the audacity to say they weren't dismissing my issues - well what exactly were they aiming to do in saying everyone had those issues - make me feel better about myself??

 

You know, this is one of the reasons that I find this site so helpful- my lad isn't old enough yet to be able to put things across like this, but you've done it in a very eloquent way. I've always thought this phrase made it a little easier for others to understand Caghals Asperger's- so many folk still have'nt heard of it! But I don't think I'll use the term again....you've really made me think, Mumble, and it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks. (But in a good way...y'know?) So cheers for that, sincerely.

 

Anyway (Baddad's digression is catching!!Online diarrhoea!!)

I agree with so many of you on this topic- everyone has ABO behaviours (ta, BD!!) LizK's post also rang true for me, as I really do think that we all have bits and bobs that could be seen as an ASD type behaviour/trait. I know I certainly do, and when I think back, my Dad (who was SUPER intelligent!! What happened to me??Those genes musta skipped a generation!! ) had loads- he used to bug my Aunt terribly by disappearing at family parties to read a paper on the stairs, which is where she'd often find me, 'helping' him do the crossword... Would he have got a DX? I dunno.... it could be he was just genetically predisposed to prefer solitude, or because he was an only child...I've heard tell my grandpa was a bit overbearing with my Dad, so it could have been a product of that, who knows? He managed to live happily and well, he had a career he loved(that also let him be solitary a lot, now I think on it!!) and a family he adored. And thats all that matters really.

My youngest has a few ABO behaviours as well, some of which I can pinpoint as being learned from Cal, some he's learned from me (he sings all day in class..I sing..horribly..all day at home!)

But they don't cause him the problems that his big brother has to face, he simply does not have an ASD. Some of Cal's AS behaviours make life terribly confusing for him, which is where his issues lie.....

I liked the comment on 'Im not naughty, I'm autistic', Liz, as a while ago, Cal started to use the phrase 'I couldnt help it, its because I'm autistic!' to wriggle out of trouble.... Im sure hed have got to that one himsef, but it was a well-meaning SEN who had explained his behaviour on an outing using similar words! It did not cut him any slack at home, I can tell you!!

 

Esther x

[Kinda]

Hi All

 

Thanks for the education and I fully accept Mumbles comments regarding the reference to slight autistic issues. One of the reasons for coming to the forum was to learn about AS and autism.

 

Thanks to all the other posters on this topic who equally educated me and makes me realise how much there is to learn and how little I really know about it!!!

Edited April 12, 2008 by Kinda

[Cariad]

I think there is autistic tendencies in all of us in one way or another. The need for control and things to go to plan being one of them. My father was an undiagnosed AS, looking back it was as plain as the nose on your face. Back then it wasn't as much "out there" regarding Autism.. Everything had to be just right, used the same bowl, had the same foods, and he used to like his own company and didn't have any friends. Also had huge meltdowns and used to trash the house (a very strange upbringing i can tell you). In the end they did say he had a "personality disorder".

 

I think I have some tendencies, I was ADHD when I was younger and was a right handful, but I was bright and found work easy, it did wear off as I got older. Even now I get "obsessions" and then they wane and I get another and I'm a mum of three kids I make a lot of lists and rotas and stick to them. My son has ASD and I think it is hereditary, as my nephew has it also and the ADHD.

 

I can't see the same traits in my daughters, but they do find it hard with my son and his ways and meltdowns.

[bid]

I think there is autistic tendencies in all of us in one way or another.

 

Sorry, just can't agree with you on this one, Cariad

 

No there isn't...otherwise everyone would be autistic!

 

The imperative is not the same, therefore it is not autistic. It's not the 'action' that is autistic, it's the imperative behind it that is autistic.

 

Bid

Edited April 12, 2008 by bid

[pearl]

Can you elaborate bid, I dont really understand that.

JP is fond of saying we are all autistic, but I think that is his way of coming to terms with himself.

[Bagpuss]

Really interesting question Mumble. From my own perspective, I was so chronically shy at school my parents were told I needed "professional help" I learnt to mask this shyness really well as I got older, probably too well. People who meet me now would probably say I'm outgoing, chatty, comfortable in social gatherings...but I never feel like that underneath. Sometimes what we project isn't the reality. I have to concentrate to maintain eye contact when I'm talking to someone, and sometimes I find social situations are a drain. I feel as if I am being someone else, if that makes any sense. My friends would probably describe me as confident and outspoken, life and soul of the party type peep, yet my mum says she thinks I'm reserved and someone who dislikes social occasions I've lost count of the amount of times I've read one of the adults with AS on the forum talking about how they've reacted to a given situation, felt about something, described sensory difficulties etc and thought "Blimey, me too"....but I wouldn't say I was on the spectrum. Sometimes I feel the line gets blurred, and I can definately see behaviours in my DS NT that I would see in our DD's, who are both on the Spectrum, but again the difficulty comes from what behaviours are due to ASD and what behaviours would of been present regardless. I kinda feel we are a mish mash of behaviours, depending on our character, our childhood, our experiences, our ability to mask and cope in any given situation.

Edited April 12, 2008 by Bagpuss

[Mumble]

No there isn't...otherwise everyone would be autistic!

 

JP is fond of saying we are all autistic

 

I think I would go for a middle-ground between these two (and maybe that's what Bid's saying, actually). I'm not saying JP's wrong, and if it helps him then I guess it's good. However, I really really don't like the 'we're all autistic' saying. It diminishes the real problem that those on the spectrum face and makes it too easy (as I said in a previous post) for our difficulties to be fobbed off as 'everyone does/has that'.

 

What I do think it is fair to say, however, is that the characteristics which are part of the diagnostic criteria of autism (take the items on the AQ for instance), are found as characteristics of the general population. That's not so say every person has everyone of them but that some people have A, B and C characteristics, some have D, E and F characteristics, and some have a vast mixed group of them (A, C, D, F, G ...). But it's only when someone has a full conglomerate in a way that impacts significantly on their everyday functioning, that we would say they are autistic. I think.

 

So sure, maybe (let's not exaggerate to everyone) but lots of NT people share one particular difficulty I have - they may even share two or three - what they don't have is the whole conglomerate interacting on a daily basis and having a significant and profound impact on functioning across the board. They may have a similar/same weakness/deficit/whatever, but they have a strength in an area that I may still have as a deficit that allows them to counteract that initial deficit on a daily basis so as the initial deficit (lots of people have that ...) can be overcome with more ease and stability than someone with an ASD dx.

[pookie170]

I getcha, Mumble, and that makes perfect sense to me. Kinda what I was trying to get across regarding my sons (albeit poorly worded and waffly...)- Lijey's particular weaknesses do not have the impact on his life that Cals do, for the very reason that Mumble put forward.....

 

Esther x

[bid]

Can you elaborate bid, I dont really understand that.

JP is fond of saying we are all autistic, but I think that is his way of coming to terms with himself.

 

Very quick, 'cos I'm on my way to work...

 

No action or reaction is 'autistic'.

 

It is the imperative behind the action or reaction that is autistic.

 

For example, finding social situations difficult is not 'autistic', it is the imperative behind the difficulty that is autistic...which is why plenty of people are 'shy' without being autistic.

 

Again, flapping or rocking are not 'autistic', it is the imperative behind the need or desire to flap or rock that is autistic.

 

Does that explain any more clearly??

 

Right, now I'm late...

 

Bid

[bid]

However, I really really don't like the 'we're all autistic' saying. It diminishes the real problem that those on the spectrum face and makes it too easy (as I said in a previous post) for our difficulties to be fobbed off as 'everyone does/has that'.

 

With you all the way on this one, Mumbley!

 

Bid (who is even later now )

[baddad]

Very quick, 'cos I'm on my way to work...

 

No action or reaction is 'autistic'.

 

It is the imperative behind the action or reaction that is autistic.

 

For example, finding social situations difficult is not 'autistic', it is the imperative behind the difficulty that is autistic...which is why plenty of people are 'shy' without being autistic.

 

Again, flapping or rocking are not 'autistic', it is the imperative behind the need or desire to flap or rock that is autistic.

 

Does that explain any more clearly??

 

Right, now I'm late...

 

Bid

 

Ooooh... I dunno about that one... It sort of includes the assumption that 'NT' flapping (or shyness) arises from a different imperative, and i don't think that's the case (?) I think the imperatives in either case are very similar, (i.e.) social unease, anxiety, stress, lack of confidence, lack of self-esteem, uncertainty etc... the reasons for the reasons (? ) may be different, but I suspect they are equally different for every individual, whether AS or otherwise. IMO autism is just part of the human condition, and autistic people aren't something 'other' any more than people who have other disabilites are something 'other' - they're just further away from that little band in the middle we like to think of as 'normal'...

 

BD

 

PS: BTW - that doesn't mean i agree with the bit that says 'we are all autistic' - we're not! autism IS too far from that 'band in the middle' to include NT's, in exactly the same way that the 'band in the middle' is to narrow to include autistics.

Edited April 12, 2008 by baddad

[Karen A]

Bid has probably gone now...so does anyone know....what does imperative mean please ???? Karen.

I do not understand.