"Make Me Normal" programme Channel 4

[Fel]

There's a programme on this Thurs at 9pm on C4. It's about one of the few state run schools which specialise in autism/aspergers and features the headmistress and some of the children. Not sure if I'll be able to watch it, but some of you may be made of sterner stuff!

[raelien]

am i right to think - thursday 2 june?

 

 

sounds worth a watch

Edited May 28, 2005 by raelien

[candy]

This is the link to CH4. Dunno if I'm going to be able to stomach it either

http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/...ems/autism.html

[elaine1]

I was just about to post a thread about that very thing.

 

it looks interesting

[Jericho]

The school where it is filmed is meant to be very good. I still haven't decided yet whether I can face watching it though.

[Gordie]

Yeah - a friend (one that I've mentioned here before in days gone by) mentioned this programme to me today. Might be worth a watch ...

 

James

[Suze]

Is this programme on tomorrow night? I.E. thurs 2nd June?What about Big Brother?Is that on later?Don,t want to miss this programme.

[bid]

Not sure about the title, though...

 

Bid

[Lucas]

I'd like to write in and complain about the portrayal and tone of how Autism is being presented, that will require me to reserve judgement until after I've watched it though. But the title is quite a firm indicator of what it is going to be.

 

I'd like to remind them that a positive face of Autism exists and whilst that portrayal harms nobody, the negative portrayal DOES.

[Hectorshouse]

I must admit I felt uncomfortable about the title, I mean what is 'normal' but that debate is huge! I will be watching though, long suffering one has shown an interest, which is always to be encouraged. T has just spoke to me about it as well, he didn't understand why it was called 'make me normal', his answer was 'I am normal I just have blowups and stuff like that'.

 

HHxx

[candy]

I'd like to remind them that a positive face of Autism exists and whilst that portrayal harms nobody, the negative portrayal DOES.

 

Totally agree Lucas.

 

The title of this prog is pants

[KarenT]

Apparently the reason behind the title comes from one of the teenage girls featured, who uses that phrase when she talks about the problems she has forming friendships with her peers. Even so, only those with an interest in autism would bother to look into it enough to find that out - any casual observer would be left with the impression that the condition is curable and that autistic people are by nature abnormal and miserable.

 

I still plan to watch it though.

 

Karen

x

[sel]

Hiya,

 

I am really in two minds about watching this, It sounds a bit depressing from what i have read about the program contents, but again it may be interesting and possibly contain some useful info!!.

 

Really not sure about this one!!.

 

Sel.

[Suze]

Is it on tomorrow?

[sharonv]

Yes tommorow at 9pm on channel 4

[nellie]

This mornings Victoria Derbyshire - Five Live Phone in programme was about tomorrow nights "Make Me Normal".

 

You can listen to this programme again here. Fast forward to 2hrs. 03mins.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/morning.shtml

[baddad]

Hi all -

Thanks for the link, Yoda - an interesting interview. Hopefully the programme tomorrow will help to burst that 'rainman' bubble that keeps bobbing to the surface.

On education: I've had a bit of a scary day today. Avoiding details (just in case!) I've spent some time today with other parents of kids around Ben's age, all of whom attend mainstream. Hardly any of them have statements - the parents don't seem to 'see the point', and for the most part none of the parents seemed to be aware of the kinds of problems the majority of ASD kids seem to be having education wise... I felt decidedly uncomfortable, coming away with the impression that they found me a bit 'negative' and 'militant'.

I may (and I hope I am) be wrong, but I sort of got the feeling that the 'high functioning' tag that's been applied to the kids seemed to have raised expectations a little bit too high; the mum's for the most part all seem to think that they'll sort of just grow out of it, and that glittering careers await them all in computer programming, astro-physics etc etc etc. Wurgh! someone just walked on my grave!

Changing the subject completely - I was quite surprised while channel surfing for Ben today to find Temple Grandin being interviewed on ... Richard & Judy! As you might have guessed this wasn't a particularly 'deep' interview, but it was really great to see TG representing autism in such a positive way (she was explaining how her autism can actually help her have greater insight into some situations than might otherwise be the case) on 'pop culture' daytime TV.

L&P

BD

[louises]

hi, my first time on here, i think that the programme, will help people be less ignorant, and understand. One of the pupils is my cousin and i love him dearly and want people to understand that there is nothing wrong with him. His mum would have be so proud of him for doing this.

[mossgrove]

Louises

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

I am sure we will all be watching with great interest and an open mind. You and his Mum are absolutely right to be proud of him.

 

Simon

[Noetic]

I'd like to write in and complain about the portrayal and tone of how Autism is being presented, that will require me to reserve judgement until after I've watched it though. But the title is quite a firm indicator of what it is going to be.

Granted, the title sounds sensationalist but if you had read past the title, you would have learned that the programme aims to show both sides of the coin and that the negativistic views (voiced among other things in the title) are from the kids themselves, who are at times desperately sad about their real difficulties.

 

I'd like to remind them that a positive face of Autism exists and whilst that portrayal harms nobody, the negative portrayal DOES.

 

What is so wrong about "wanting to show the very real problems" that these kids have? Do you deny they exist? Are we (parents and autistics alike) just fantasising or lying when we report of our difficulties?

 

You are right - mentioning the positive sides is good but it is downright damaging to deny the negative sides every time someone uses the words "autism" and "problems" in the same sentence. Theres thousands of people on the spectrum without adequate support in the UK - if you are so happy and gifted with AS, fantastic!

 

But don't go acting like you speak for the rest of us - you do not, and your attempts to play yourself up as some kind of advocate are undermining the fragile efforts of autistics to get recognition of our VERY REAL difficulties (and no, the big bad NTs are NOT to blame for my problems with confusion, auditory processing, motor control etc. Nor are all the "bad" things "just comorbids" and autism is some fantastically desirable gift that makes us superior and wonderful or ).

Edited June 2, 2005 by Kris

[zaludova1]

My son is in the Make me Normal programme and he thoroughly enjoyed meeting the film crew. He is not one of the main participants but he has such enthusiasm for the whole project. Autism is a difficult and often distressing condition but despite his difficulties my son is a charming gentle young man who tries very very hard to get the best out of life. It is not a 'gift' , and alot of the time being different is hard for him when so many neuro typicals behave badly towards him.

I am not keen on the title but if my son's friend said that , it is appropriate. The film crew consulted parents and my son will certainly send them an email telling them how much he enjoyed/didn't enjoy the programme.

My son loves going to the school featured in the programme and his happiness is paramount.

Watch it - but don't condemn it unseen.

[Noetic]

My son is in the Make me Normal programme and he thoroughly enjoyed meeting the film crew. He is not one of the main participants but he has such enthusiasm for the whole project.

I thought some of the kids in the previews looked nothing like the four main pupils featured! D'Oh should have figured there would be more than 4 students in the school!

 

Doesn't Moneer look so much like Andrew Cowan (the boy from Junior Mastermind) though!

[Hectorshouse]

zaludoval, hi and welcome, thank you as a parent of one of those involved with the project for coming here to express your opinion, I am glad that you had the same feeling towards the title as quite a few do here (me included) but I had dececided to watch before making any judgements. All the write ups I have read, have been extremely good, and sensitive towards an issue that is still highly misunderstood. Knowing that this is also taken from a child that you know eases my feelings about it greatly, and perhaps makes it more emotive. the title alone has caused some interesting conversations with my son (11 & AS etc ) particulary on the basis of what is 'normal', which is an abstract term and not clear in his often very concrete world. He will be watching with me, as I think it will open up more conversations with him, and hopefully help him to understand a bit more of himself, at the moment he is very confused about his differentness, as he has got older he become increasingly aware of it, and as his peers have got older they have got less tolerant.

 

It will be an interesting evening, I'm sure.

 

HHxx

[Lucas]

I certainly don't pretend Autism is all things wonderful, but I don't like people finding a scapegoat in Autism, they're hunting a bogeyman. If the school is dominated by the idea that Autism is to blame for this, that and the other, than any new pupil attending with unformed ideas will have their beliefs shaped by the existing dominant one, it doesn't matter if there are some giving a positive picture. That's something I experienced myself and I've seen in many places. Lovaas femine boys project turned some of the subjects into homophobes even though they weren't overtly taught those beliefs, it's the same case with Autism.

 

I go through many difficulties in my day to day living but I worked out long ago that whilst I would not have to put up with them if I were not Autistic, Autism is not the cause. Your idea is very much like saying that the cause of crime is the law, because if we got rid of the law then nothing would be illegal, hence no crime.

 

Getting rid of Autism may get rid of many problems, but the same principle applies; Autism is not the direct reason.

 

A great many Autistic strengths are interpreted as problems:

 

Some Autistics appear to think slowly: This often because they have considered more options than is apparent to others, so will take more time to consider each one, which will make them appear to be thinking slower.

 

Autistics proccess faces as objects: All the studies into this were flawed because they used pictures of faces instead of real faces, the Autistics were simply able to tell the difference between a picture(an object) and a real face where the NT control group couldn't.

 

May I remind you that non-Autistic people will have many of the same problems as Autistics if:

 

They are stressed.

 

They are ill.

 

They are in an emotionally impoverished enviroment.

 

They are in deep boredom.

 

They live under constant threat.

 

They are prisoners of conscience.

 

This was why Bettlehiem first believed Autism was caused by refridgerator mothers; the similiar comparisons found in people to which the above applies and Autistic children. He observed that removing the equivilent stimuli from an Autistic patient would reduce problems. It was concrete proof until the genetic factor was discovered and Bettlehiem was found to be a charlatan, but his evidence remains untouchable and is vindicated by the evidence to be found in behavioural research today.

 

I don't like thinking of Autism in the simplistic terms 'positive side/negative side', because I take everything into account instead of blaming Autism for things I can't explain. As I have learned to explain my own problems and listened to others explain theirs, I've found no evidence that Autism itself is a direct cause. One 'negative side' could be the tendency towards aggression, but the NAS and quite a few prominent scientists say there is no link between Autism and aggression. They say this for the exact same reason I say Autism can't be a cause for anything: it's so pervasive it effects everything, but so pervasive it has no direct chain of influence.

 

If Autism makes me sensitive to loud noises and someone shouts at me and I drop something fragile, is Autism to blame for me being so clumsy or is the shouter to blame for being an idiot?

 

Every 'problem' is simply an extention of that question.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Kris

[asereht]

Z , Thanks for the info. so glad your son is happy in the school.

 

I live in ireland and there is no school here, especially for autistics, that will take my son as he is high funtioning AS. He is in mainstream and hates it.

 

I look forward to seeing the programme and have the video set to record as I am in work until 9:30.

 

I will reserve judgement for after I have seen it.

 

Wishing you and your son all the best and may he continue to be happy

Edited June 2, 2005 by asereht

[mossgrove]

Lucas

 

Firstly please do not call anyone stupid on this forum. There is no need for rudeness, and it undermines your argument.

 

(edit: the post that this refers to has been edited by Kris)

 

I admire the direcness of your philosophy, but there are times when it doesn;t deal with the world as it is. It is an unavoidable fact that 98% of the population is NT, and that our children will spend much of there time in a world that has an NT perspective, so not everything can be dealt with by expecting the NT world to make the necessary accomodations, and all of us (NT and autistics alike) need to deal with this fact.

 

If Autism makes me sensitive to loud noises and someone shouts at me and I drop something fragile, is Autism to blame for me being so clumsy or is the shouter to blame for being an idiot?

 

To use your question directly, you may get shouted at if you drop things, and the shouter may be an idiot, but that is the world we live in, and skills are needed to cope with this. An Autistic person in that situation is entitled to feel that Autism is not a blessing in that circumstance. That is a matter for them and not me or you. You view it differently, and I have no problem with that,but please do not demand that everyone with Autism feels the same way, or assume that everyone who does not share you opinion is stupid. If you expect the NT world to value your differences, do not be afraid to value differences that other Autistic people have from you.

 

Simon

[Lucas]

And another thing:

 

Ask any researcher in Autism what their source is for assuming any Autistic trait to be a problem is. Then go to their source and ask them where they got their assumptions from, so follow their source. Keep doing this.

 

You eventually find that the original source for emperical evidence of the problems caused by Autism is either the 'Autism is childhood Schizophrenia' theory or the refridgerator mother one. They are originally based on 1940 social values of what constitutes a deficeit characteristic(being female, being coloured, etc). It's a shame we're not as progressive when it comes to Autism .

[Lucas]

Mossgrove,

 

I'd like to ask you why you ask me not to be rude but you don't direct any criticism at Noetic for the same thing? Or doesn't it undermine her arguement?

 

I'd like to know how I sometimes do not 'deal wiht the world as it is' when my criticism is that people are not doing that; they are obscurring the world as it is with their own invention of it.

 

And I can't work out what your point is about 98% of the world being NT; that has no bearing on wether or not accomidating for Autistics is reasonable, it's the same arguement used time and time again to deny groups of people rights which they hold today.

 

To answer your direct answer: your answer was wrong because it was too direct.

 

Blind people were often made to feel stupid once upon a time as were a lot of others. When some of them started having ideas about how they may not actually be stupid and tried telling others they were not stupid, they were told the exact same thing: If they want to think they are stupid it's fine.

 

The scenario I gave can only be answered inadequetly because it gives inadequete information. I only said Autism was causing the person to be sensitive to noise, but I didn't explain how and why. I'm always asking for the hows and whys and that is why I believe inaccurate beliefs about Autism are harmful and I don't tolerate them, even coming from other Autistics.

 

Which was my point about every problem being an extention of this question.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Lucas

[Noetic]

And another thing:

 

Ask any researcher in Autism what their source is for assuming any Autistic trait to be a problem is. Then go to their source and ask them where they got their assumptions from, so follow their source. Keep doing this.

 

You eventually find that the original source for emperical evidence of the problems caused by Autism  is either the 'Autism is childhood Schizophrenia' theory or the refridgerator mother one. They are originally based on 1940 social values of what constitutes a deficeit characteristic(being female, being coloured, etc).  It's a shame we're not as progressive when it comes to Autism .

Do you actually know any researchers in the field? (And I mean people who actually have published work in the field, not people who have taken it as their pet project to rant and rave against any and all commonly accepted facts about autism!)

 

Would it surprise you that many of them extensively rely on self-reports and explanations that they obtained through working with autistic individuals?

 

Are all those autistic individuals just making it up or not really autistic?

Edited June 2, 2005 by Noetic

[Kris]

Hi all,

 

I've just been made aware of the turn that this topic has taken so apologies for not picking up on this sooner.

 

I think that Simon (Mossgrove) has summed things up perfectly.

 

There is no place on the forum for personal attacks or rudeness. Both parties in this feel equally strongly about their individual views and will have to agree to disagree.

 

Apart from anything else the tone of this will detract from the overall points that you are trying to make which can be argued as equally valid depending on your viewpoint.

 

I will edit two of the posts to remove the 'harsher' elements whilst allowing the topic to continue and the points to be made. Above all lets reserve judgement until the programme has at least aired!!

 

Consider yourselves moderated!!

 

Kris

Forum co-Host

 

[Lucas]

Yes it would suprise me because most Autistic study subjects have always been children or adults who have been surrounded by material directing their views towards Autism=problems. If a researcher questions them about what it is like to be Autistic, their response will reflect the material they've had available to them, or haven't you noticed how so many Autistics seem to speak in the third-person? That's because they are para-observing themselves: describing their lives in the only terms of reference which have been available to them. The poem 'My name is Autism' was a good example.

 

So my answer is: they are not making it up, but studies with more hands-on evidence gathering still fall into the Schizophrenic/Refridgerator mother pit-fall because of the material the study subjects will have been exposed to. They can not garuantee avoiding a biased sample.

 

Those who agree with my views don't have the same problem because most Autistic-proud Autistics developed their views in isolation from the pro-Autistic community after being unable to find adequete information about their condition. It's only after they conclude there is nothing wrong with them that they seek out others with the same views, as was the case with Aspergia; most arrived already believing in it's ethos, the front page scared all the others away because they thought Edan was a weirdo. I think that was deliberate cunning on his part.

[Jadensmum]

I will certainly be watching the programme and I have asked family members and friends to watch it too.

 

I am hoping it might give me an insight into how my son thinks / will think and even if it isn't appropriate or useful to our situation it will certainly be interesting.

 

Can't really express an opinion until I've seen it.

 

But with regards to the title - if it is something one of the children said and it is certainly an attention grabber, I don't really see the problem with it.

 

I am sure we all want more people to watch it to raise more awareness of ASD and viewing figures I am sure would have played a huge part in choosing the title.

 

I am not sure something like "I like having Autism" would have the same clout - just my opinion though!!

 

Denisex

[Lucas]

We Are Normal would have been just as apt.

[mossgrove]

Lucas

 

I think Kris has dealt with the rudeness issue so I will say no more.

 

I think we have circled around this problem before, but the core of my point is this:

 

Now and for the foreseeable future most NT people will not make the appropriate accomodations for autistic people. I am not saying that is what should happen, but it is what happens now, and in all probability what will happen in the future, at least some of the time.

 

This means that almost everyone with Autism is going to experience difficulties living in an NT world. You have mentioned you expereince difficulties yourself in some areas. Most of those people are not happy about thoise difficulties.

 

Some people (yourself included) are Autistic-proud and have every right to be so.

 

Some people will feel that, if they had a choice, they would rather be NT than autistic, hence 'Make Me normal'.

 

Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. Everyone is entitled to hold and express their own opinion.

 

 

Simon

[Noetic]

"Some people (yourself included) are Autistic-proud and have every right to be so."

 

Just to point out, I am in no way "ashamed" to be autistic etc. or do I even witsh to be NT (because then I wouldn't be *me*, right?).

 

I am *very* happy to be me, good and bad aspects.

 

But I am also a very literal person, and a realist at that. I find skewed portrayals of autism bizarre to the extreme and find them very hard to deal with, regardless of what side they are skewed towards.

 

--> I am not comfortable with *either* extreme i.e. I find both extremes worrying and disconcerting:

 

Extreme 'Curebies' who abhor autism and regard autistics as something that needs 'disinfecting'.

 

But also extreme 'Proudies' who attack any and all position that dare use terminology that may imply anything but the most positive of connotations for autism.

 

I believe both extremes are just as harmful for autistics overall, and both extreme versions just serve to boost the inflated egos and somewhat surreal world views of their proponents.

 

Both sides seem to quickly resort to illogical, furious and often very personal attacks and claims that do not exactly give them and their cause much credibility/

 

I do not feel comfortable dealing with people who can turn the most well-intentioned factual comment into a reason to twist words, insult the writer and instigate some kind of witch-hunt, all based on a single word or sentence whose bizarre interpretations by the other side bear no similarity to the actual statements or intent of the writer.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Noetic

[mossgrove]

Noetic

 

I borrowed the term Autistic-Proud from Lucas's posting, and take it to mean people, like Lucas, who are proactively putting their postive perspective forward.(or 'Proudies' as you put it).

 

I never meant to say that other people with Autism were not (or should not be) proud of it. I sorry if that is how it came across.

 

Simon

[Suze]

I,m looking forward to the programme."I wish I was normal", is something my AS son has said to me on a number of occassions.He has told me he feels different to his peers and does,nt understand their concepts etc. Me? ........I don,t think anyone is normal, it does,nt exist it,s just a term that describes the majority who very often exhibit enough problems, co-morbids ,etc to warrant some sort of "label".Society seems to be striving towards some sort of perfection all the time.Every where you go everything is false, hair colour nails,tans,........don,t really know where this rant is going!!!But sometimes I wish my son did,nt worry quite so much about trying to be "normal" he,s probably" normal "in it,s most pure form, not tainted by what society pressures him to be and become. ..................Gosh what was my point?Did it make sense.

[Jadensmum]

Well said Suze!!

 

Made sense to me!

 

Denisex

[mossgrove]

Made sense to me too!

 

Simon

[loulou]

Hi Suze,

 

That definately makes sense. I often feel like Kai is totally normal, it's just everyone else around him with the "problem".

 

Loulou x