Jump to content
Aeolienne

Geology graduate sues Jobcentre for making her work in Poundland

Recommended Posts

So often on this forum and elsewhere people dismiss retail work, even as a stop-gap, as beneath them. But would you go to the extreme of a court case to uphold your human right not to work in Poundland?

 

One thing I find surprising is that I was signing on at Exeter jobcentre for a year (May '09 - '10) and not once did they play the "take this job or else we'll scrap your benefits" card with me. Maybe that's all because I had several years' of NI contributions behind me - that and the fact that the advisors couldn't understand what my last job was about so were prepared to give me the benefit of being A Specialist. Or maybe the system has changed considerably since the change of government... Seriously, back then the advisors didn't seem that bovvered whether I'd applied for anything. At one of my signing-ons the advisor actually asked "Do you want me to look up some jobs for you on the computer?" - the implication being that she was quite happy just to sign my form and wish me a nice day!

 

But enough about me... Cait Reilly in her own words

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn’t understand, what is her problem? She didn’t like stooking shelves and wiping floors. It’s crystal clear from her language. Why didn’t she go to a museum, any museum, and found her ‘ideal work placement’ herself? Is personal initiative and for that matter personal responsibility are not in her vocabulary?

 

I’m working for a local council and it’s already crystal clear that my job will go soon. I’ll do whatever it takes to find a new job, just as I’ve done it before. If I need to clean toilets of do dishwashing - no jobs are too small for me. Perhaps some of us have to kiss goodbuy our cosy illusions and open eyes to a new economic reality. I also don’t like her generalisations about what ‘many people think’. I’m a member of public who works with the public and I don’t ‘think’ like this and I never met anyone who does. I don’t buy this spin.

Edited by Tanya52

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes the job centre is understanding of disability which is why we might not be forced to

work in jobs that are well below our capabilities.

 

Personally im not able to cope with the sensory overload and crowds associated with retail work.

 

This graduate was working and not being paid which is why she was so upset. In a sense it is

slave labour.

 

I hope she manages to find a suitable job soon, the idea of going to University and working hard

is so you can get a better paid job.

 

Im worried that i will be pushed into a job im unable to cope with as due to my additional mental

health and HMS related stamina difficulties i doubt i could manage even 16 hours. JMHO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This graduate was working and not being paid which is why she was so upset.

Although she was already working for free at a museum. In fact according to some reports she had been working there for seven months - much longer than her stint at Poundland - and returned to the museum position after her two-week retail stint was up. It makes you wonder why the museum isn't being accusing of exploiting unpaid workers. Ironically, there are far more lucrative opportunities for geology graduates elsewhere if only she hadn't restricted herself to this rather niche job market.

Options with a geology degree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tanya - she said that if a paid job in Poundland was available, she would grab it with both hands.

 

The problem is that people are being forced to go and work for large companies (who the government are paying to participate), or lose their benefit money. We aren't talking a 2 week placement at minimum wage, or even useful training where the pitiful hourly rate could be justified.

 

And these are big companies like PL and Tesco, not charitieswhere I could see the value in unemployed people 'volunteering'. Not only that, the scheme is actually reducing the job market, as the 'volunteer' is performing tasks which should be completed by a paid worker.

 

(null)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a tricky one. Yes everyone wants to get paid for work and so in a sense it looks like they taking advantage HOWEVER it is my personal belief that unless you are restricted (i.e health or children,to a certain extent) to work and you are getting benefits for a certain duration then you should work,at the end of it you are getting paid in the form of benefits. The money has to come from somewhere and the unemployment rate keeps esculating. I believe they have changed the rules and it is positive, if you are on JSA(and possibly others) for more than 6mths you will be "forced" into such "training" schemes as mentioned above.

 

My partner is on JSA we claim as a family but its reduced as I claim carers to. I am only taking a break from uni when at uni I get a bursary. Anyway he was told about the scheme it means come June the JSA stops, however my bursary only starts in October so we are really going to struggle. He is studying part time and would like to work but we decided he is best off at home as my nursing course means I have to do long shifts and we would lose more if we have to pay childcare for three kids. In fact I tried to find childcare for Sam for a year and nobody would take him because of his ASD so I think somethings got to change when it comes to childcare costs and childcare options to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... the idea of going to University and working hard is so you can get a better paid job.

 

Going to university is supposed to make a person a more well-rounded and mature individual. It isn't necessarily job-related unless the subject you studied has some relevance to the job you've applied for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets see. I’m a university graduate too. I’m responsible for my career choice. It is not our society that made this choice.

 

It seems that big companies agreed to collaborate with the JC to give unemployed people an opportunity to try their skills, however basic or even undesirable these skills might seem to some. All of us have to prove something to our employers in any kind of employment.

 

If I was in her shoes I’d ask my JC about volunteering for one of our local community's many projects. There’s a lot to do and not enough people to do it. I’d prefer young graduates to channel their energy into this kind of activities rather to playing a blame game.

Edited by Tanya52

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If I was in her shoes I’d ask my JC about volunteering for one of our local community's many projects.

She was already volunteering for a museum. It's not clear how likely they were to offer her a paid job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

Sorry I didn’t make it clear that I was talking about her compulsory Pound land employment, not in a museum.

 

Talking about her employment for a museum, I can only tell that from the 1st April our council is making cuts 1/3 of opening hours for all community libraries. I’m not sure what have happened with the local museums’ opening hours, but I think things there are not very rosy too. After made redundant from our jobs we’re allowed to reapply for a few vacancies including working for museums, that they keep for internal staff only. So, the young lady would face even more challenging competition with people like me, who sure would find this kind of reemployment more desirable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going to university is supposed to make a person a more well-rounded and mature individual. It isn't necessarily job-related unless the subject you studied has some relevance to the job you've applied for.

I'm sorry, but I really feel I have to disagree. University is most definitely job related and about gaining the skills necessary for your chosen career. I didn't study for 4 years doing a physics degree to improve my maturity and make me a more rounded individual nor did I ever expect that.

 

Anyway, back to the original post, I think what she's arguing about is spot on. Why should companies be able to take people on for a probationary period and not pay then an honest days pay? What poundland are doing is effectively slave labour. I've seen companies do this for years and get away with it, any decent employer would employ you on a fixed term contract (even as short as 2 weeks! so you could still get your JSA once it was over) and pay you the minimum wage during this period.

Edited by AspieMe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, but I really feel I have to disagree. University is most definitely job related and about gaining the skills necessary for your chosen career. I didn't study for 4 years doing a physics degree to improve my maturity and make me a more rounded individual nor did I ever expect that.

 

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was thinking in terms of degrees in English, History, Philosphy, Languages etc where the degree doesn't qualify a person for a job in a particular niche in the way a degree in Physics, Medicine or Law would.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going off the subject a little.

So you go to university is to enable you to get a "better" job. Sounds a good idea.

So 50% of the population go to university. That sound a good idea.

But then where are all these "Better" jobs coming from.

And who will be doing all the jobs that you don't need a university education to do.

Edited by chris54

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was thinking in terms of degrees in English, History, Philosphy, Languages etc where the degree doesn't qualify a person for a job in a particular niche in the way a degree in Physics, Medicine or Law would.

It has long been a bone of contention with many that a mickey mouse degree is valued as highly as a law/medicine/science degree. I never had time in my course to party as I was too busy completing assignments and lab reports, whilst the media students were having a ball with their 2 hours a week attendance! In my opinion degrees should be scrapped unless there is shown to be a genuine need for those degrees in industry.

 

But then where are all these "Better" jobs coming from.

Thats exactly what I thought, after being told for far too many years that we have a shortage of scientists in this country. Upon completing my degree, I had to relocate from the North to the South of england as there appears to be nothing but call centres in Yorkshire and all the science jobs are in the South or at the Universities

 

And who will be doing all the jobs that you don't need a university education to do.

As well as anyone who genuinely wants to earn their own way in the world, the Polish/Czech/Romanian/Hungarian workers who have a well deserved reputation as being hard workers who are willing to work their fingers to the bone for peanuts (a work ethic that, sadly, too many in this country have forgotten).

Edited by AspieMe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing that got me was that she said she already had retail experience so what was the point in sending her on a training scheme in the first place, when someone else without training may have benefited from a taste of the retail environment?

 

Regardless of being paid, or the work being done it doesn't make sense to send someone to learn about something they already know... not to me anyway :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If she didn’t want that placement why didn’t she argue it in the JC before she went there? She proved to be literate enough and assertive enough to argue her case and not just in media. Would she play in the media her victim’s card if she volunteered for a community project and looked after older/vulnerable or disable people instead of going to a Pound land for a couple of weeks to play with a mop? It obviously suited her and she made her educated choice. Now she can play her little game. She knew how to navigate in a system to find her ‘ideal job’. Why haven’t she chosen to accuse that museum in making her ‘a slave’ for 6 month too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You make some fair points - but I know what some JCs are like, a friend of the family and a family member of mine were both unemployed at some juncture last year, they were both forced to attend training things, both argued it because the training the JC wanted them to go on were totally irrelevant to their circumstances.

 

Especially the friend of the family who was forced to go to a training course where they showed him how to do a cv and how to do interviews all week (despite the fact that he had already done a much higher level and quality course to do this 6 months earlier, despite the fact his cv showed him to be very capable of getting good jobs, and despite the fact that at the time he was willing to do any kind of work) he came out of the training with nothing, but had to do it or his JSA would have been stopped, no arguing in the world would have prevented this. He basically wasted most of the week being taught things he'd already learnt as the course was designed for long-term unemployed or never employed people. Not only that, but his cv demonstrated that he had already achieved all these things too.

 

The only point I have to make is that training should be made to be suitable to the individual's needs, and also based on reality, maybe with this example, the museum work was unlikely and unrealistic, so she should widen her search.

 

This is why I see it as a waste of money to send people on training that is below their skill level - they wouldn't do it the other way round... they wouldn't take a high school drop out with little to no skill level and send them on an advanced course far beyond their abilities, so why do it the other way around when there could be people out there who could benefit from it, but aren't getting a placement because someone who didn't need it got the slot, and purely so that someone sitting in their little booth at the JC could tick a box without paying any attention to the person's needs/skills/previous work/interests/previous qualifications...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Darkshine,

 

I agree with you. I can’t argue that JC practices might be rotten box ticking exercises. I assume that a lot of public money wasted to make unemployed people to do something which only suit the JC management’s short-sighted agenda. At the end of the day they are fighting for their jobs too.

Let us think for a moment why JC collaborate with the bigger guys like the supermarkets and the Poundland? First of all they’re the only industry which is not shrinking but expanding. Am I wrong about it? I guess not. I think that supermarkets might argue against paying minimal wages because they see these placements as liability for two reasons:

1) An unemployed person who’s made to come to do 2 weeks voluntary job is not motivated and can be “a distresser” in a team of low-wage employees

2) I guess for them it’s more PR exercises than anything else, because I’m sure, they think that they should have been funded by the taxpayers to accommodate JC’s placements. These businesses are aggressive, profit-driven. I don’t know how anyone could see them resourceful for this purpose.

 

On the other hand there’re shortages of volunteers in many communities. JCs must collaborate with local councils to provide both, placements for meaningful training and the workforce for important projects. Isn’t this the right reason for taking her JC to the court after been denied such placement? Sorry, but it’s still not clear for me in her writing. All I’ve understood that she wants money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the other hand there’re shortages of volunteers in many communities.

Are there though? During the last few years I've tried to find voluntary work via the website do-it.org.uk or by applying in person at a local volunteering centre. I've done that in four different places: Exeter, Skipton, north London and Cambridge. Unfortunately on all occasions the organisations I expressed an interest in took what seemed like an overly long time to get back to me, and then some of them admitted they weren't actually looking for volunteers after all!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can only discuss my experience of working for a few local charities 7 years back and can’t possibly advise how it is nowadays . However I do know that my neighbour has been working for one of the local council’s projects since her husband passed away 4 years ago. They’re seriously understaffed but young unemployed people are not in a hurry to grab this job. The council pays every volunteer’s CRB check and provide training, supervision and valid references for all applicants for a paid employment. In 2011 she brought me a brochure with at least 8 different local projects.

 

In our library local people often come and ask what they can do to keep it open. Together we organised the library friends committee. They run groups for all ages and interests: reader groups, conversation groups, a sketching group, helping children with their homework, a children club, a yoga class, promoting our library locally, and collecting money for the local charities, for instance, to buy equipment for glaucoma patients of the local NHS trust.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said Tanya (from post #18) :)

 

As for what was said in the article, I just carried over my understanding from the people I've known, over to her example - it kinda sounds similar - I guess the lady who was in the article was mainly moaning about money, but I figure that there's more important points that were only skirted around in the article - points like the ones I made, and the ones you have made, which I think are far more relevant than some woman bi+ching about money - but then she did mention valid experience and she already had that experience, so they were wasting everyone's time and money anyway, whether they paid her or not :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cait Reilly wasn't joking about taking her case to court...

Latest Guardian article

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a difficult one. Personally I don't think this student stands a chance in court. Although she might be working "for free" in a shop, she is still "getting paid" by receipt of her benefits. I think she is being greedy.

 

How times have changed. When I left school, I had to go on a Government training scheme that paid £25 a week. I was not eligible to claim benefits. The money was good enough for slave labour back then but one just accepted things and got on with it. I was thankful to have a job. And it certainly didn't do me any harm as I've not yet been out of work.

 

The problem these days is that the Government has groomed and encouraged young people to do degrees which would promise them a decent job upon graduation. Unfortunately in the real world, the jobs are not out there.

 

I applaud anyone who has worked their guts out to obtain a degree if it's for something useful but what I absolutely deplore is a graduate whining about doing menial work: i.e. a job that is beneath them. Personally I think they should be pleased that they have a job and are getting some experience - paid or unpaid.

 

I would put this down to experience. This student can then approach a prospective employer and say that she has x amount of work experience working in a shop etc. Employers would look more fondly on someone with some work experience than someone without and they would look more fondly upon someone who would turn their hand to anything

 

But I would also have expected Poundland to have given her time off for interviews etc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The graduates point is that they wouldnt have got into this debt if they had known the result would be working in Poundland. She has wasted potential. I happen to be volunteering with my degree because the job i need isnt out there.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jun/13/mandatory-work-scheme-government-research

...claims the mandatory work scheme didnt work and this is by the DWP!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These unpaid jobs in poundland are supposed to be work experience placements.

A university graduate would have experienced more than enough in a job like that after working there for a week. If you are of reasonable intelligence, there just isn't a lot to learn there. I know this from personal experience in similar (paid!!!) jobs - and I am not even a graduate! Any additional time that she works in poundland would not be teaching her more skills to become more employable.

The government would be paying for poundland's workforce from the people's taxes. That is not acceptable; poundland is a big business and should make its own profit from which it should proper wages its employees. Also, this placement would take away an honestly paid job for either this person or someone else.

It would be a lot more useful to place this person somewhere where she can either really learn something, or where she is of use to society, like in a charity. Also, it is a terrible waste of this country's resources if you do not profit from the education this person has had. With a geology degree she could volunteer for several organisations that would actually profit from her knowledge. Someone said she should find her own work experience placement, but it's not that simple. Many people who do exactly that are told that their self-found placement will not do, evne if it would teach them more than stacking shelves.

The country's assets are not only cold hard cash. The country's most valuable assets are the talents and knowledge of its citizens, and that is what our current society fails to see.

Continuing on this path will lead to Great-Britian becoming a narrow-minded greed- and profit-driven swamp of stupidity and compliance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It would be a lot more useful to place this person somewhere where she can either really learn something, or where she is of use to society, like in a charity. Also, it is a terrible waste of this country's resources if you do not profit from the education this person has had. With a geology degree she could volunteer for several organisations that would actually profit from her knowledge.

She already was volunteering for a registered charity - the Pen Room in Birmingham.

http://www.penroom.co.uk/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a difficult one. Personally I don't think this student stands a chance in court. Although she might be working "for free" in a shop, she is still "getting paid" by receipt of her benefits. I think she is being greedy.

http://www.publicinterestlawyers.co.uk/news_details.php?id=298

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a very interesting development and I am surprised, but pleased that the government have been overruled on this one. I am also pleased for Cait Reilly for making a stand.

 

As somebody said on this forum earlier "Going to university makes somebody more rounded and mature". I did not go to university so perhaps I am not a "more rounded and mature person". So what do I know?

 

I just wish people would make a stand and overrule the government on the health service who are bringing privatisation in by the back door (and forcing people I know out of work). I too am waiting for the grim reaper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What people have to consider is what alternatives are there to benefits when there is no work to be had as to understand a life of benefits is not a lifestyle option, what else is there when there is no work ?

 

What I can see is one of two things the first being a life of crime and the second being starvation and death, because no money means no roof over head no heating, no food, nothing. Are people understanding this what removal of benefits actually means ? As not everyone has the safety net of families to fall back on.

 

But let's talk about this suggestion that the slave labour scheme leads to jobs, firstly, why would a paid position be made available when a company can have an extra pair of hands for free ? Does anyone at all see the potential for abuse here ?

 

Then there is what a person has to do in their placement which is anything the bosses demand as to understand if they refuse a nasty report goes back to the DWP who do what ? Paid workers can refuse anything that is not in their contract but unpaid what contract do they have, they don't and so must do what they are told or face death, because that is the reality of no benefits, it's not punishment it is execution by starvation and exposure, basically what we had in the nineteenth century in twenty first century Britain.

 

But this is the minister's response to the court ruling

 

And to think I once believed in this country enough to join the armed forces where I fought on behalf of this country and this is what this country does to it's own people, I am completely disgusted this is not the country I was brought up to believe in.

Edited by Sa Skimrande

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although she was already working for free at a museum. In fact according to some reports she had been working there for seven months - much longer than her stint at Poundland - and returned to the museum position after her two-week retail stint was up. It makes you wonder why the museum isn't being accusing of exploiting unpaid workers. Ironically, there are far more lucrative opportunities for geology graduates elsewhere if only she hadn't restricted herself to this rather niche job market.

Options with a geology degree

Interesting BTL comment here:

 

 

 

Of all my friends from university my fellow geologist BSc and MSc graduates are the only group that

a) found work with ease, either industrial or academic

and B) in the field of their degree

or

c) elsewhere out of choice not necessity. e.g they decided that admin jobs etc were for them not a mine geo job etc.

Most are abroad, or at least work abroad on fly in fly outs. But this isn't viewed as a negative, generally the travel bug resides within the sort of person that does a geology degree I think. After graduation 5-7 years of that in your twenties and you can move on to more stable, sedentary jobs in your thirties. .

Geology PhDs struggle a bit more on the presumption that the PhD has rendered them useless for industry and so they often struggle to get hired their depending on their speciality. But even then they generally have a good choice in civil service, consulting and lobbyist jobs if academia isn't an option.

The key is doing the degree in a decent university and decent degree program.

From Why computer science graduates can't talk themselves into jobs (!!)

Edited by Aeolienne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...