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Exclusion - is it Disability Discrimination

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I'm not sure this is the right place so apologies if it should be somewhere else.........

 

M has been having major issues at school and a statement is currently going through (see my other posts - it's a long one!). At the beginning of March he was excluded for a day for "physical assault against an adult".

 

I'm still waiting for a copy of the incident report (now requested in writing as it didn't appear) but from what I gather, the following is a summary of events..........

 

M is frustrated in class (unsure why) and explodes attacking his teacher - kicking, punching and head butting. Teacher is understandably very shaken and has been hurt. M is removed from the classroom and given 1:1 supervision doing what he called 'fun stuff' ......... yes I know, ridiculous and totally the wrong message. Anyway, 1.5 - 2 hours later, the Deputy Head is given the report by the teacher and calls M into her office. Shuts the door (just him and her) and starts to reprimand M again! M explodes again (not surprisingly) and attacks her too - she is very shaken and also hurt - M is moved to Head's office. I arrive to find M bright red, heart pounding hiding under a blanket in Head's office.

 

M is ASD & ADHD and is really struggling in school; right now he's only going in for the afternoons when I can actually get him there. CAMHS referral has been done as he threatened to kill himself. I feel that if he had been given the support in the classroom that he needed, he would not have become so frustrated and angry. Also, for the DH to reprimand him a second time for the same thing is just ridiculous especially as she is well aware of M's needs.

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Schools have policies about behaviour, and have procedures they have to follow regarding exclusions. So ask school for a letter explaining what happened and if he is excluded - because that will also be useful for you too.

 

If he is excluded there is information on www.ace-ed.org.uk website about that.

 

What seems apparent is that the school and your son are not really coping. It is not fair for teachers to be in a position where they could/can be attacked, and the disruption that causes to the rest of the children in the class.

 

Obviously he shouldn't attack teachers/pupils, and will/should receive a reprimand or exclusion for that.

 

However, I agree it is the wrong thing to allow him to do things he likes as a result of this behaviour because that makes him think attaching teacher = withdrawal from class to do fun things. And because he is not coping in mainstream classes, that could become his way of getting out.

 

And although he should receive some punishment in school/at home for this - the school and professionals also need to be involved to decide if this placement is working anymore.

 

Ask the school WHO they intend to contact for advice about this [eg. EP], and phone and speak with the EP too and ask for her urgent involvement. Also ask her opinion on the placement and if there is somewhere else that could meet his immediate needs more effectively in a smaller low arousal unit that has small group teaching and a high pupil:staff ratio.

 

In the meantime, talk with school about what they can do, and what you can do.

 

Do school have any idea of what caused this incidents?

 

I know you've said that he spends alot of time out of the class in 1:1. Could that help if he is taught 1:1 with his TA for the time being.

 

If the Head thinks that their school cannot meet his needs, they should say that in writing. But the school will be under pressure from the LA to "include" your child. However, as stated in previous posts, if he effectively cannot cope in a mainstream class and is mostly withdrawn 1:1, then he isn't being included is he.

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I quite agree Sally and do not condone his behaviour in any sense. I have utmost respect for teachers (well most of them) and no one, other children included, should be put in a place where they could potentially come to harm. TBH if I were a parent of one of the other children in M's class and knew about M's behaviour I'd be livid!

 

TAC is arranged for tomorrow with ASD Outreach and Specialist Behavioural Teacher coming - will let you know the outcome.

 

Emailing the EP now.......

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Once you have spoken with the EP, and have got the letters in response to telephone conversations etc. I think you then need to back off and leave them to do [or not do] what they feel is required.

 

Although no-one wants to see the placement effectively breakdown, or for their child to become so anxious they are out of school - that is unfortunately the stage most children have to get to to prove that the current placement, or provison or both is just not enough or not working.

 

The reason I say this is because you will have got some good evidence for your Appeal. What you don't want to do is end up prodding the EP and school every step of the way, so that by the time you get to the Appeal it 'appears' that they have been quite responsive [which maybe partly due to you phoning and having meetings etc]. You don't want the school or EP to look like they are doing a good job. And that is what it may appear like IF you continue to push them to get involved and have meetings and discuss the issues etc. So just leave them. Left to their own devices they usually do too little too late - and that is what you want to be able to demonstrate at the Appeal.

 

So, just leave them to get on with it. If the EP does not recognise by now that he probably needs a different kind of placement, then I really don't know what needs to happen to prove that.

 

Do don't offer solutions, just keeping batting the ball back to them ie. what are YOU going to do, who are YOU referring him to, what ADVICE or PLAN do you have - and can I have a copy of it.

 

I presume you have the SEN Code of Practice. Read through that.

Make sure you do not miss the deadline to Appeal the Statement.

Lodge your Appeal and read through the info/DVD they send you.

Visit alternative placements to see which, if any, are more suitable.

And start preparing for your appeal date.

Keep gathering evidence via further appointments, meetings, discussions etc and get it all on paper.

Edited by Sally44

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Although no-one wants to see the placement effectively breakdown, or for their child to become so anxious they are out of school - that is unfortunately the stage most children have to get to to prove that the current placement, or provison or both is just not enough or not working.

 

It's just so wrong isn't it. We're nearly at that point now so I know it won't be much longer. On a positive note, the CAMHS appointment has come through for the middle of June which is better than I expected. Will see what happens at the TAC tomorrow too

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It sounds as if we are in very similar circumstances - our yr4 son (9) is at the proposed statement stage, and of course the proposed statement is not worth the paper it is printed on (but that is another topic).

 

I sympathise with you entirely. Our son sometimes shows aggressive behaviour towards school staff. As far as I can see this is always in situations that could have been avoided if there were a responsible/experienced/trained adult nearby to intervene at an earlier stage. These things never (or at least rarely) occur without warning and can usually be prevented by early intervention either to remove the source of stress or at worst to calm things down quickly.

 

So as far as I am concerned these outbreaks are a sign that school (or more precisely the education service) are not doing their job properly and I would say that for the DH to repremand him again for what is essentially the school's failing is both morally wrong and totally counter-productive. If they can't manage the situation ask THEM what they propose to do about it.

 

That said school itself is between a rock and a hard place - they have very limited resources and without a statement giving sufficient support they are in an impossible situation. If I were the parent of any other child in our son's class I would be very concerned about the impact of his behaviour - and the level of resources he absorbs. The key of course is to fight for a good statement - go for full time support from an appropriately qualified teacher.

 

Also - at the risk of teaching my grandmother to suck eggs - make sure that you have a log of all these incidents. It could be crucial evidence during the statementing/tribunal process and I know our school is very poor at recording / reporting such events.

 

And to answer the original question - yes I think we and our son do face disability discrimination that is technically against the law (even a crime) but there is not really a whole lot you can do about it.

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Hi

As I mentioned in one of your other posts Sam was excluded four times in about 6mths when he was in year 2. Although I agreed with at least two (possibly 3) one of them was done to push along the statmenting process,I was not that happy about it at the time but the end result was that he did get his stament quite quickly with no hiccups along the way.

 

So my advice would be to make sure you get all the paper work involved when the incident occurred. By law the school should send home a letter on the day of exclusion,in it should state the date,reason for exclusion(giving the whole summary but excludes names just initials of those involved) the duration of exclusion,return date and time of return as you should meet with the head and senco upon returning. Also keep a diary of anything significant. Try see if his school can provide this letter even though it is late it is still important.

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Hello to all

 

i have only just got our diagnosis for aaron adhd and aspies and in reception we did tell his consultant who was horrified she was so angry and agreeded the school my son attends was discriminating him by excluding him twice when if they had placed the right care he would of not headbutted the child in question and on the second time threw a book at the teacher. We have also requested a letter like yourselves and they are still doing this. When he was excluded the first time they said he was sick only now that his consultant spoke to school they actually excluded him so now ofsted are investigating the school. Here is what our camhs said

 

a school is only discrimating a child when there is a medical diagnosed condition and the care they recieve for this is being neglected for example if they dont show aaron change in classroom to stop him getting distressed and just do it and then exclued him when he has a meltdown and becomes aggresive they have discrimated him because they know change effects his disability.

 

Hazexx

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As others have said, the incident is good evidence that school isn't working out for your son and he needs more help.

 

However, in answer to your original question, the exclusion of a disabled child is not necessarily discrimination if the school can show justification. The head might exclude if s/he considers the pupil to be a risk to themselves or others- for exple if they are so wound up they might lash out at anybody- including the next child who upsets them.

 

Having spent a long time advising on exclusions, I have to say that one day exclusion for a physical assault on an adult is very lenient indeed. Normally a much longer term would be imposed, and many schools would permanently exclude for this. It would appear that the school has already taken your son's disability into account in imposing the punishment, even if events leading up to it could have been handled better.

 

K x

Edited by Kathryn

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Having spent a long time advising on exclusions, I have to say that one day exclusion for a physical assault on an adult is very lenient indeed. Normally a much longer term would be imposed, and many schools would permanently exclude for this. It would appear that the school has already taken your son's disability into account in imposing the punishment, even if events leading up to it could have been handled better.

 

I must admit, I am surprised it hasn't happened before this as it's certainly not the first time he's done it. I've asked for copies of all his school records so hopefully there will be more than one incident report in there. Not that I like him attacking teachers you understand but just so I've got as much ammunition as possible should I need it :)

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Hiya,

 

This is my first ever post on any forum as we have only recently had a provisional diagnosis my the doctors who r only just sending a questionnaire to school so we r in very early stages of diagnosis so a lot of the lingo u r using is going over my head lol!

 

It's a very long story but basically my son is 10 (yr 5) he is very well behaved at home in general to the extreme that we only went to the doctors in September with the poss of autism (aspergers) he has always been different, he likes music and dancing and needs our attention all the time, gets upset when unstructured/routine things happen, NEVER has friends as he alienates them as he's very bossy and controlling his last school I was in and out every week because they said he was naughty and vindictive and they were concerned with how he played with younger children all the time and believed it was so he could control him anyway long story short we had been trying for no connected reason whatsoever to get him into a music school (this is still a state school) only its set inside a secondary school with only 40 children years 3,4,5,6 so just 2 classes with 20 mixed year kids in, my son is in year 5 of the mixed 5/6. We had to audition to get into the school and he failed twice so 3rd time lucky (3 yrs of trying) he got in hence being year 5, I genuinely believed starting a new school where the children had similar interests etc would be a brand new start for him and all our troubles would be in the past (obviously still not knowing about the asd) anyway the school is 45 mins away so I paid for a school bus for the entire school year as this was always the intention, on day 6, he got off the bus with a huge black eye :( I was horrified, the story then came out that my son had approached a year 11 student aggressively because they were tormenting his friend, he then attempted to hit him so was pushed off and hit his eye on the bar on the bus, my son was then banned from the bus for a week, when he was allowed back on he had a key which was given to him for emergencies for his grandads house but as it was new and important he had it out on the bus and was tapping it which was annoying other passengers so a girl that's 2 years younger than him snatched it off him and wouldn't give it back, he got increasingly more frustrated and annoyed and got her round the throat to force her to give it him back, unfortunately this girl has a sister a year older than her but still a year older than my son and they told there

Agents and my son was banned for the rest of the term (I totally understand this as I was mortified my son could do this to a girl and that's younger than him and if I was her parent I would also be complaining) .... The problem I have is that the parents have requested my son does not go anywhere near them AT ALL which means if they are talking to someone he wants to talk to he has to wait until they have finished and come away before he can approach that person!! ... I was really unhappy about this and called it rediculous the school said it was extreme but not rediculous and claimed the sisters are petrified of my son and are having night tremors and crying because they don't want to go to school, I therefore accepted this and encouraged my son to stay away from them, I talked every morning and evening with him b4 and after school to make sure he thought about it etc, he often reported to me they were still approaching him and taunting him that he wasn't allowed near them or they would tell their mum and called him names to try to anger him etc etc until one day my son was witnessed saying something to her he says he was warning her she was making him angry she says he said was going to kill her (no phsical act took place just words and no one over heard so no witness as to what was said) my son was excluded for the day!!!!! ... Mainly because he hadn't stayed away like was instructed! .... (at this point I'm still unaware of his asd so I kind of had to accept that his behaviour was unacceptable even though I thought harsh punishment) ... Then we had the provisional diagnosis which I applaud the school for all the measures they have put in place as they only have what I have told them the doctors have said and haven't even received the paediatricians questionnaire yet! They have got him a councellor, referred him to camhs which I have a date in may, we have been seeing a psych at school and working on an iep (or whatever it's called lol!) he has a t/a to greet him at the beginning of school literally for 10 mins the reason for this is to put him in the right frame of mind for class time so he starts the day happy instead of anxious, ... So I'm sure many of you will be thinking the school have been very good getting all this In place without anything on paper from the docs and I agree 100% he also went on a 3 night residential trip with school a few weeks ago and was reported as being SUPER! I've not had any phone calls at all since his exclusion and his behaviour has been reported as he's doing much better and seems to be really making. The effort, .... However .... On Tuesday an incident happened where he had set up a game in the corner of the playground where he had cornered the are with cones and had some fellow students joining in (which is an achievement on its own) he was happily playing with them and them with he, he thehad to go and fetch something to do with the game from another area of the playground he had been gone all of 2 minutes and when he returned the sisters he is not allowed to go near were inside his coned area talking to the children he was along with, my son saw red and shouted they could not be there as it was his are and his game and not allowed near them, they wouldnt move so he pushed the younger child (she did not stumble or fall over or have any marks it was purely a push and he stamped his feet a lot by all accounts) anyway after school the girls told their mum and she confronted my son outside school and frightened him half to death as grandmas was picking him up this day and was slightly late, he was up in the night shaking with fear and crying and every morning since has been on his guard looking for her car when I dr him off!! The girls normally get the bus that I mentioned before so I very rarely see this mum in question so I went to school first thing wed morning and reported this they said they would look into the incident which they did and what I've said above is what they reported back to me as happeneing so they decided to isolate my son for the day as punishment for pushing her and they openly said if it had been another child and not one of these sisters that the punishment would have been different!! ... So it only do I have the battle of his asd but also the fact that it appears the parents of these sisters will not stop until my son is out of the school and I feel I have no leg to stand on :( .... I pleaded with school not to isolate him saying he is well behaved in class and isn't even with the girls as they are in the other class 3/4 he's in 5/6 and that could they not appropriately punish him by him missing lunch break which is when the incident occurs but they said he needs to see how serious it is and that just because he's been well behaved for a while and stayed away from them that he cannot slip back like this :( plus they didn't do the isolation til Friday when the incident happened on Tuesday which has added to his anxiety and they have said will speak to the mum next week at some point!!!!

I guess I probably have a lot of questions but I think one of my main ones really is just what would you do in this situation? Or do you have any advise of who I could speak to and where I can go for support? Or if indeed you think school have handled it correctly and I'm being over sensitive lol! ... I appreciate any advise good or bad at all because like I said at the beginning I am brand new to all this and do not really know a great deal,

 

Thanks for listening to my rambling I think that alone has helped lol!

 

K xxx

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Hiya,

 

This is my first ever post on any forum as we have only recently had a provisional diagnosis my the doctors who r only just sending a questionnaire to school so we r in very early stages of diagnosis so a lot of the lingo u r using is going over my head lol!

 

It's a very long story but basically my son is 10 (yr 5) he is very well behaved at home in general to the extreme that we only went to the doctors in September with the poss of autism (aspergers) he has always been different, he likes music and dancing and needs our attention all the time, gets upset when unstructured/routine things happen, NEVER has friends as he alienates them as he's very bossy and controlling his last school I was in and out every week because they said he was naughty and vindictive and they were concerned with how he played with younger children all the time and believed it was so he could control him anyway long story short we had been trying for no connected reason whatsoever to get him into a music school (this is still a state school) only its set inside a secondary school with only 40 children years 3,4,5,6 so just 2 classes with 20 mixed year kids in, my son is in year 5 of the mixed 5/6. We had to audition to get into the school and he failed twice so 3rd time lucky (3 yrs of trying) he got in hence being year 5, I genuinely believed starting a new school where the children had similar interests etc would be a brand new start for him and all our troubles would be in the past (obviously still not knowing about the asd) anyway the school is 45 mins away so I paid for a school bus for the entire school year as this was always the intention, on day 6, he got off the bus with a huge black eye :( I was horrified, the story then came out that my son had approached a year 11 student aggressively because they were tormenting his friend, he then attempted to hit him so was pushed off and hit his eye on the bar on the bus, my son was then banned from the bus for a week, when he was allowed back on he had a key which was given to him for emergencies for his grandads house but as it was new and important he had it out on the bus and was tapping it which was annoying other passengers so a girl that's 2 years younger than him snatched it off him and wouldn't give it back, he got increasingly more frustrated and annoyed and got her round the throat to force her to give it him back, unfortunately this girl has a sister a year older than her but still a year older than my son and they told there

Agents and my son was banned for the rest of the term (I totally understand this as I was mortified my son could do this to a girl and that's younger than him and if I was her parent I would also be complaining) .... The problem I have is that the parents have requested my son does not go anywhere near them AT ALL which means if they are talking to someone he wants to talk to he has to wait until they have finished and come away before he can approach that person!! ... I was really unhappy about this and called it rediculous the school said it was extreme but not rediculous and claimed the sisters are petrified of my son and are having night tremors and crying because they don't want to go to school, I therefore accepted this and encouraged my son to stay away from them, I talked every morning and evening with him b4 and after school to make sure he thought about it etc, he often reported to me they were still approaching him and taunting him that he wasn't allowed near them or they would tell their mum and called him names to try to anger him etc etc until one day my son was witnessed saying something to her he says he was warning her she was making him angry she says he said was going to kill her (no phsical act took place just words and no one over heard so no witness as to what was said) my son was excluded for the day!!!!! ... Mainly because he hadn't stayed away like was instructed! .... (at this point I'm still unaware of his asd so I kind of had to accept that his behaviour was unacceptable even though I thought harsh punishment) ... Then we had the provisional diagnosis which I applaud the school for all the measures they have put in place as they only have what I have told them the doctors have said and haven't even received the paediatricians questionnaire yet! They have got him a councellor, referred him to camhs which I have a date in may, we have been seeing a psych at school and working on an iep (or whatever it's called lol!) he has a t/a to greet him at the beginning of school literally for 10 mins the reason for this is to put him in the right frame of mind for class time so he starts the day happy instead of anxious, ... So I'm sure many of you will be thinking the school have been very good getting all this In place without anything on paper from the docs and I agree 100% he also went on a 3 night residential trip with school a few weeks ago and was reported as being SUPER! I've not had any phone calls at all since his exclusion and his behaviour has been reported as he's doing much better and seems to be really making. The effort, .... However .... On Tuesday an incident happened where he had set up a game in the corner of the playground where he had cornered the are with cones and had some fellow students joining in (which is an achievement on its own) he was happily playing with them and them with he, he thehad to go and fetch something to do with the game from another area of the playground he had been gone all of 2 minutes and when he returned the sisters he is not allowed to go near were inside his coned area talking to the children he was along with, my son saw red and shouted they could not be there as it was his are and his game and not allowed near them, they wouldnt move so he pushed the younger child (she did not stumble or fall over or have any marks it was purely a push and he stamped his feet a lot by all accounts) anyway after school the girls told their mum and she confronted my son outside school and frightened him half to death as grandmas was picking him up this day and was slightly late, he was up in the night shaking with fear and crying and every morning since has been on his guard looking for her car when I dr him off!! The girls normally get the bus that I mentioned before so I very rarely see this mum in question so I went to school first thing wed morning and reported this they said they would look into the incident which they did and what I've said above is what they reported back to me as happeneing so they decided to isolate my son for the day as punishment for pushing her and they openly said if it had been another child and not one of these sisters that the punishment would have been different!! ... So it only do I have the battle of his asd but also the fact that it appears the parents of these sisters will not stop until my son is out of the school and I feel I have no leg to stand on :( .... I pleaded with school not to isolate him saying he is well behaved in class and isn't even with the girls as they are in the other class 3/4 he's in 5/6 and that could they not appropriately punish him by him missing lunch break which is when the incident occurs but they said he needs to see how serious it is and that just because he's been well behaved for a while and stayed away from them that he cannot slip back like this :( plus they didn't do the isolation til Friday when the incident happened on Tuesday which has added to his anxiety and they have said will speak to the mum next week at some point!!!!

I guess I probably have a lot of questions but I think one of my main ones really is just what would you do in this situation? Or do you have any advise of who I could speak to and where I can go for support? Or if indeed you think school have handled it correctly and I'm being over sensitive lol! ... I appreciate any advise good or bad at all because like I said at the beginning I am brand new to all this and do not really know a great deal,

 

Thanks for listening to my rambling I think that alone has helped lol!

 

K xxx

 

Hi

Welcome to the forum. I personally feel the school are being harsh. Was the exclusion legal? did the give a letter exaplaining what happened and for how long he would be excluded,did they sign him out on the register so that it was authorised and did they inform the LEA? Regardless of whether he has a diagnosis or not it can still be illegal if the school have not followed the rules.

 

Of course if he did make a threat to the girl it is not good and he should be punnished but it still seems harsh. I believe it could be a case that the mother in question is putting pressure on the school to do something,she possibly feels, given your son is older, that he is being a bully,its not very nice but puts the school in an awkward position.

 

I have been in this situation with my eldest son ( does not have ASD) and my son with ASD. My eldest son had a problem with a boy in the same year as him,the boy and my son were both very bright and I think it was a case of jealousy. The boy is an only child and his parents would come rushing to the school to moan about my son constantly,it was always such petty things,my son has never had a reputation as a bully and is known by everyone as being sweet. However the school still had to act as the other boy was a pupil and the parents made these complaints.

 

With my son with ASD he got a reputation as a bully when he was about 6,I cannot say I blame the parents as he did lash out and would pinch and bite alot. His exclusions were legal,despite one being before he actually got his diagnosis,it was what I would expect the school to do if roles had been reversed. I did have a confrontation with one mum who decided to give me parenting advice,I was really upset and told her if she has a problem to talk to staff not me as they are dealing with it. I do think the mother is really out of line for confronting your son,she could have spoken to the school and if she wanted to talk to you she should arrange this through the school as well.

 

Sorry I don't have much to suggest about what you can do other than just keep communicating with the school,keep a diary of all incidents and possibly a home/school diary where the school can inform you how he has been,this will help in the diagnosis and statementing process.

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Hi djkacy and welcome to the forum.

 

The great thing about this place is that you find people facing the same problems as you - there is a wealth of experience and advice, not to mention sympathy.

 

A diagnosis will help a lot - and even the fact that you now have a provisional diagnosis puts you in a stronger position. The main point to remember is that it is the responsibility of the school / LA to educate you son - not you. If behavioural problems arise out of ASD then they need to address them

 

You need to meet with the SENCO at school - make sure he as at least on School Action Plus

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You can find more information about exclusions on www.ace-ed.org.uk

 

If it were my son I would get advice from them, contact your local Parent Partnership and ask them for support and to attend any school meetings with you. I would ask for a meeting with the SENCO, yourself and the PP and go over the incident, and inform them of your son now being assessed for an ASD??

 

Tell them that although your son has said and done things he should not have, that that may have happened in part due to his difficulties and tell them what your son is telling you - ie. that these girls are taunting him until they get a reaction from him, and then complain about what he says or does.

 

See what ace-ed say about the school making him stay away from these girls, when these girls seem to be encroaching on his personal space - which is odd if they are so traumatised!

 

Ask the school to get to the bottom of this. Ask that he is allowed to go somewhere during unstructured times [breaks/dinner], where there will be a member of staff present at all times whether that is inside, or outside in the play area.

 

The school can inform all dinnertime staff to be aware of what is going on and for them to observe and see IF these girls are also taking advantage. Afterall, I really don't see how this is workable. It isn't fair that he is doing nothing wrong, and talking to some friends, and then has to leave if these girls then approach these same people. How is this workable.

 

Ask them to monitor what is happening by them ensuring an adult or adults are aware of what maybe happening and for them to keep a close eye on your son and the other girls [and maybe the wider group too].

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