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Carrera74

Post 16 provision - help meeting with the LA tomorrow :S

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My DS is 15 and due to leave his independent special school placement this year. After securing his place at his school in September 2010 (after Tribunal) the LA have never attended any reviews he has had. The last one was in January and the LA sent their apologies on the morning it was held. At the review the Connexions Advisor agreed with school and me that he is not ready to move to a mainstream college. It has taken him since September 2010 to finally settle in and gain the confidence to start opening up and relaxing with his teachers. He still struggles when he gets frustrated - his coping mechanisms vary between 'shutting down' and being defiant and disruptive. If he is struggling with something or his anxieties are high he completely closes himself off from everyone or he goes the total opposite and has a full blown meltdown. Either of these used to take him a whole day to come out of but with a lot of hard work at school he can come out of it in an hour. I think this is because he now trusts those around him.

Whilst being at this school he has also caught up with a lot of school work. He missed nearly two years of learning in Yr 7 and 8 due to the wrong environment but he is a very bright lad and in the right environment he thrives which we now have evidence of as he has just got an A in his English mock exam! smile.png

After his annual review the paperwork was sent to the LA and they have said that as he doing so well academically he can go to the local Grammar school's 6th form as there are other children there with a statement and one child who left DS's school last year attends there. It's like they think he is fixed because he has caught up so well with his learning. I have visited the mainstream college which is local to us and took DS there on an open evening and he totally freaked out. He doesn't want to go there as it's 'too busy' and he 'can't cope'. I have visited the grammar school where the LA sent my son's papers to and when I described how he can be if he's struggling in class the SENCO pretty much said that sort of behaviour could not be tolerated and although he was a match to them with his grades he would be asked to leave the school (albeit after numerous detentions).

The LA have called a meeting tomorrow to discuss 16 plus provision as they said my request for him to stay at school is unheard of and normally children like my son would go to the Grammar school.

I just wonder what are his rights at 16? I know I will have to battle to keep him at the school he is at now. I just feel worn out already when we fought so hard to get him in there and just as he is settled and ready emotionally to learn life skills they want to uproot him and send him somewhere where he will fail and give up.

I am aware that things have changed in the last few years and any advice on where I can read up on 16 plus provision would be much appreciated :S

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Does the school he attends continue up to age 19?

 

If he is starting to do well that is proof that he is in the right placement. You have all the evidence of past failures.

 

Also the LA cannot just change the placement. They need professionals to have advised that. I presume the current school say he should remain with them? Then that is what they should say. You say you want him to remain where he is.

 

If the LA do amend for him to go to the Grammar School, my understanding [but please check it], is that he stays where he is until the SEND Tribunal Decision.

 

We are now in March. If they issue their Decision in April, you lodge the appeal, but just within the timescale [check what that is, I think it is a couple of months?]. That means you lodge your appeal sometimes in June. The appeal is therefore going to take place in the next school year, probably October time. Having started the year, with the previous history, with him attending and starting to make some progress, I think it is unlikely that the SEND Panel would agree to move him.

 

And you could always get an independent EP report, if needed, to back that up.

 

Don't tell the LA they have no professional report saying he should move, because that could cause them to get the LA EP in. Just keep quiet. If you go to a tribunal and the LA have absolutely no reports/evidence to back up their claim that he can move to a grammar school, they are going to look ridiculous.

 

Your position is that you want him to remain where he is. By law they have to go with the parental choice of placement UNLESS there is another placement that is a better use of resources. The LA may claim that is the grammar school, but they have to have evidence to back that up.

 

You've had years of school failures, months/years of being out of school. His current school can state how long it has taken him to settle in and begin to make progress. I don't think the Panel would be willing to gamble on moving him, him needed another 1-2 years to settle in etc. I think they would keep him where he is. And that is if the LA do continue to a tribunal. They are just looking to save money. So just dig your heels in and say you want him to stay where he is and that the school is backing you on that. And get a letter/report from the school about how he was when he joined them, how long it has taken him to settle, what progress he is beginning to make, their opinion that it would be disasterous to move him.

Edited by Sally44

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Hi Sally

 

Thank you so much for this detailed reply. The meeting went ahead and everyone there (Headteacher, Connexions Advisor and us) all made our case to the LA and they took the information to panel which was last Thursday. The HT feels that with the right transition my son could go this 6th form but it would have to be a very slow process. They have tried on numerous occasions to get him into mainstream learning along with his peers but he has not been able to do it because of his anxieties and difficulties. We put it to the LA that he stays at his current school for 12 months and they will drip him into 6th form. The plan being that if it works, great but if not he doesn't lose his place at school and he has them as a safety blanket. The LA's panel have turned down our request and have said that a transition plan must begin urgently, the sooner the better (DS started his GCSEs yesterday so not great timing!) They are going to name the 6th form on his statement and give him maximum funding to enable the school to get a full time TA in to support him. It's only taken to this term (over 2 years) for him to be comfortable with his teachers at his current school so no idea how this is going to work!

 

I will be going to Tribunal and will put an appeal in as soon as I get the statement. The LA have said they will send it as a final statement so I can appeal asap - that's good of them seeing as I only received a letter from them 2 days before the panel met to say that his current school meets his needs (from his review that they never bothered to turn up at in January!!!)

 

They did mention at the meeting that they would get the EP in to see him in school but they couldn't get it arranged before the panel met last week. There is another panel next month so don't know if I should be asking them to reconsider our case again or just go straight to tribunal.

 

I'm mentally exhausted already. I forgot how difficult all this is whilst he has been in the right environment :S

Edited by Carrera74

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I would phone the EP and make sure you can meet her in school to talk about your son.

 

Does the school have other pupils they have kept for a further year, or is what they are suggesting with your son something they have never done before? Because if there is a precedent already, that shows that they can and have done it previously.

 

Does this independent school definately finish at age 16, as I thought education within school now went up to 17??

 

Does this school have mixed age classes? If so, having a child of 16 in with kids of 15 or 14 will not be unusual.

 

Does this school know of any other independent college, rather than mainstream 6th form that might have more support?

 

If you go to tribunal you need to submit a brief succinct bundle of documents from the previous tribunal. And in your case Statement, again give a brief background history of his mainstream failures, school refusal, how long he was out of school. How far behind he was. And obviously submit his Statement, and the provision/placement that you have evidence of it working and producing progress. Detail his good results. But then go on to give details about his social and emotional growth and how that is lagging, and how it has taken these last two years for him to establish some level of trust with the teaching and therapy staff [and I presume the school will also write up a report to this effect]. Say that he is just not emotionally mature enough to cope with another move to a mainstream environment, where the evidence details he just cannot cope.

 

In the meantime I would suggest you look for an independent college. I don't know if SOSSEN might have some info of where you might search for that. You can also get funding for students taking certain kinds of further education. I think you don't get funding for HE or University, but check that.

 

If the LA see that you are saying that he remains where he is [expensive], or moves to an independent college [expensive, especially if it also includes boarding], then they might capitulate and keep him where he is. And good luck with it. Let us know how you get on.

Edited by Sally44

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The EP hasn't arranged to go in (yet). The LA said that he is too busy and they didn't feel that they needed EP input for their panel. Something tells me they may try and get him to fit my son in before they break for the holidays especially when they know I am serious about going to tribunal. We haven't had any EP input since Year 8!

 

The independent school he is in at the moment are opening up a sixth form in September 2013 so my son could stay there but the LA say it is unheard of for them to place children there after 16. I do know that a child stayed behind an extra year last year as he is in my son's class. School say that it is a different case for the other child though as he has missed a lot of schooling due to anxiety but they can do it if they want to and it has worked as this particular child is now going to mainstream college a year later (he has resit his exams and done work experience whilst staying at school for another year). He is from the same authority we are in. There is another boy though who went to the 6th form they are naming from school and it is working so they are using his case I think as their precedent. My son is very different to this child. This child when faced with a problem becomes really focussed on getting an explanation whereas if it was my son he would more likely get frustrated and either shut down if someone hadn't picked up on him becoming stressed out or he would go into meltdown. The 6th form don't have behavioural policies in place for things like that as they don't see that type of behaviour. You should have seen the SENCO's expression when I told her DS had been held only a few months ago. This was (we think) due to the transport changing their driver one morning! He still gets really bad at small changes. At least when he does at school they can manage it, not so at this sixth form. This is why any move needs to be done slowly, at his pace so that meltdowns don't happen. Why don't they listen to the professionals who know him inside out? Grrrr!

 

The Head at the current school thinks of all the colleges in the area (mainstream) this one that they are naming would be the best but it will take a long process for it to work. The Head was furious when I phoned to update him. He couldn't believe that they would put all the hard work we have done to waste.

 

It worries me that as he has improved so much academically that they won't take into account his social needs - it's those needs that prevent his learning and succeeding if not managed properly. It's now as he is getting older that his ASD is more obvious. He doesn't know what to do in any new situation and he can really freak out or shut down in these circumstances.

 

I'll look into Independent colleges - I didn't realise there was such a thing :rolleyes:

 

Thanks for your input. You are a wonderful help :)

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Don't push the LA to do anything. Don't remind them of anything. Leave them to do what they are going to do.

If they amend the Statement you have the right to appeal. And if they go to a Tribunal, with no evidence, without new reports, without the EP having seen your son for years, then that all works in your favour.

 

So just concentrate on what your appeal will be about, what your case statement will say.

Your Appeal has to convince the SEND panel. Forget about what the LA need to do, or should have done. Leave the SEND Panel to see that for themselves.

 

The only thing you need to think about is the kind of arguments the LA might put forward and have evidence to shoot down each of their arguments in your evidence.

 

Okay, so there is a precedent for a child remaining another year, and a precedent for another child having moved to mainstream college.

 

But remember that your son's Statement is about him. Wasn't he out of school for some time too? And remember that a Statement is not just academic stuff. It is about his emotional literacy, social communication, sensory issues, anxiety, how he would cope and how he has coped in the past. How long it took him to settle in etc.

 

If they are going to have a 6th form there, then push for him to remain where he is. And I would ask the school SENCO if they will support you in that request. They will need to produce a report for SEND too. Are they going to say he should remain with them, or will they say that 'with support' he could move to mainstream college? They need to get off the fence and make a decision. What therapy does he get at that school and what do they say about him moving mainstream because he won't get therapy there, or input for his sensory issues, or anxiety, or social communication, or speech and language, or emotional literacy. He will get, possibly, a full time 1:1 TA, who is basically an adult with the lowest qualifications and training possible.

 

This is a very important time of his life. He will be studying for examinations that will determine his future prospects. If it all falls apart now, he could leave the education system with nothing.

Edited by Sally44

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Hi Sally

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

The SENCO at the 6th form rang me on Friday after her meeting with the LA to give me a heads up. Apparantly now that that the LA are funding my DS fully they can now meet his needs!! Ridiculous seeing as the first time I met her she couldn't and didn't see the point in uprooting him and the first thing she said to my son was 'if you come here we will do everything we can to help you but you will not get the same level of support that you do at your current school'. Am I being paranoid or is it all about the money?! :rolleyes:

 

The LA rang me yesterday to confirm that they are naming the 6th form as they can now meet his needs and they would be starting the transition as soon as he finishes his exams (his last exam is on 24 June or thereabouts). They will be using their own specialist ASD teacher to make the link between his current school and the 6th form. The transition they feel can be done in a few weeks. Honestly they have obviously not read his statement or the attachments or any of the advices!!!!

 

Anyway I finally got through to IPSEA today (they do a fab job!) and their legal team advised me that if I want to appeal the placement from September I need the statement. If I ask for the final statement to be sent to me the LA no longer need to fund him at his current school and he will have to go to the 6th form from September. If I ask for the final statement then that gives them the green light to start the transition. They said I can refuse to place him at the 6th form from September (until the Tribunal hearing) as he is not of compulsory school age at 16. I could choose to fund him myself at the special school (that's a no go as I can't afford it, if I could I'd not be fighting for funding :() IPSEA said it sounds like the LA have dragged their feet knowing full well that with the timescales I'd not be able to appeal in time and I would have no choice but to send him to their named school.

 

My plan of action now is to request a copy of the final statement, stating clearly that I am appealing their decision. Fill the application in asap and then contact SEND to ask for an expediated hearing. It is quite likely that the earliest the hearing could be held would be September so we will have all Summer with this dark cloud over our heads!

 

We will have to hope that A) miraculously this works out or b ) we can gather all the (further) evidence as it fails and he will be placed back at his current school. I'm so frustrated that we have to let him fail before we get anything for him. The LA do not give a stuff about any children. It's not about their needs but about how much cash they don't need to spend. Actually I'm not frustrated. I'm absolutely fuming!

 

IPSEA added that once this has all been to Tribunal that I should write to the LA Ombudsman as they had until 15 February to provide the final statement and they have no excuse not to have done this as DS's review was held in January. They said they have breached their legal duty!!

 

So I await the final statement and in the meantime I will put my case together.

 

:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

Edited by Carrera74

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That is why it is so important to know what the timescales are. You could have then lodged a complaint with the LGO in February, and that might have caused the LGO to give a Decision of maladministration, they would have Ordered the LA to finalise the Statement and may have also ordered the LA to pay you compensation.

 

Is his current Statement very specific about therapy eg. 1 hour per week of 1:1 speech and language therapy [or Occupational Therapy], etc to be delivered by a suitably qualified therapist. Or does it state that he must be taught by a teacher with additional qualifications to teach children with an ASD. Anything at all that is specific and that this 6th form will not have.

 

For example, if he is supposed to have OT therapy, where will he have it in the 6th form building? Do they have a suitable place. Do they have an OT. etc etc.

 

If his current school has life skills lessons, and this is a need he has [which he must have], how are those life skills going to be taught, by whom, when, and with what peer group. My son goes out into the community with his class to do things like have a meal, go shopping etc. How can a mainstream 6th form college deliver that? If there is nothing in his Statement about life skills, then it needs to be added. Can his current school give any written advice on that.

 

If it does, go into the school and go through the Statement with the SENCO item by item and ask them how each part is going to be fullfilled. If they do not know, then put that in writing in a letter afterwards, detailing all the provision the school cannot provide, or has no idea who or how it is going to be provided.

 

Regarding the transition. How do you think that might go. Would your son refuse? Would he not cope? If that is the case, I would explain to him about the change of school, and tell him that if he feels he cannot cope, or feels too anxious that he must say so and that you will understand if he genuinely cannot go into school. Then see what happens. If they manage him okay. If he refuses the transition it is part of your evidence that he is not going to agree to go to this school and that he is not coping with the change or with the level of support or expertise within that school. They cannot force him in. And if by the actual Appeal he is out of school, the Panel are going to have the evidence of where he was agreeing to attend and where he was making progress, and how that has all fallen apart because the LA has insisted on moving him without any professionals opinion or report stating that that amendment to the Statement is for the benefit of your son!

 

And you can include in your Case Statement that the LA did not finalise the Statement by the end of February, which IPSEA have informed you means the LA acted illegally and by finalising the Statement so late it has meant that you have not had time to lodge an appeal and sort all this out before the start of the next academic year, leaving your son in a high anxiety state for the last couple of months.

 

Unfortunately it works in your favour if your son does refuse. So you make it clear to the LA, in writing, what your parental choice is. And then leave the LA/school to work out what they are going to do with your son and how they are going to deliver this transition.

 

If there is anything in the Statement about class sizes, and the new 6th form is larger than that, that is another major issue that the environment is not accessible to your son because the class sizes are xx pupils, when the report dated .......... clearly states that he needs to be taught in class sizes of xx, which is what he received whilst at his former school, where he was happy, where he was attending, and where he was making progress.

 

Any increased anxiety, deterioration in behaviours, increase in autistic behaviours, anything he says and does, get it written down in a daily diary. If you need to ask for a referal to Clinical Psychology or CAHMS ask for it.

 

Do you have the schools report after the AR in January where everyone agreed he was unable to attend a mainstream college, and how the LA had not even attended, or ever seen him. Will the school back you up a bit more because they seem to be working with the LA on this transition, rather than stating verbally and in writing that this is not meeting his needs, that they do not think he is capable of attending mainstream, and that that was every professionals opinion at the AR.

 

Put in your Case Statement the above, and say it appears that the LA have decided to do some cost cutting and that they decided they could save some money on your son's placement, regardless of the past placement failings and periods out of school, despite the present evidence of him making progress and without considering the future implications of what they were doing for your son and his future life choices. Without taking anyone's advice, without apparently reading the outcome of the AR, without listening to you or your son. And that the progress he has made is going to be lost by this disasterous blinkered decision.

Edited by Sally44

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Regarding your earlier discussion with the Head of the 6th form, did you write that all down and put it in a letter to her? You need to do these things, because then you have on record what she originally said, as opposed to what she is saying now.

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Hi Sally, thanks for this. I have been in a bubble for the last few years as he was in the right place. I should have known better after my experiences with the LA over the years that they wouldn't have played fair now. They don't give a hoot about what's best for my son. I have requested the final statement so I can appeal and received it this morning. I am kicking myself as at his last 3 reviews where we have had very detailed feedback from the school we have agreed that the statement still stood - I didn't request any of the detail to be included in his statement so we still have the statement he has had from yr 7 with a few extra bits included about S&L. There's no new stuff in there from his current placement so will go through that with a fine toothcomb and ensure that we ask for that to be put in at appeal.

 

We had an awful day yesterday. DS had a huge meltdown which consisted of swearing in class, shouting out, refusing to leave the class for timeout, the class were removed so he upped it by going for a teacher, drawing on his desk, putting his foot through a wall and finally throwing stones at a window which broke leaving £450 of damage. Breaking the window seemed to snap him out of his destruction. All this because he was getting frustrated in Maths and he couldn't use his time out techniques as he was so overloaded he was in meltdown mode :(

 

I've contacted the SENCO at the 6th form and told her what happened yesterday. I have told her I will not send him to her school unless they can deal with this sort of behaviour which is extreme. She said they would do what they could and would have done the same up to the taking the other children out of the class but she wouldn't go any further. She's advised that I write to the SEN office advising of what happened yesterday. I was hoping she would see how ludicrous it will be to uproot him from a school that are used to dealing with this behaviour to a mainstream school but she wouldn't admit to anything.

 

If he'd behaved that way yesterday in a mainstream school I am pretty sure they would be able to permanently exclude him and have him arrested!

 

I'm going to write to the SEN office now. Spelling it out that I am not applying for a place at this 6th form (which I have to do for him to be given a place) due to him being emotionally vulnerable and not ready for a mainstream environment.

 

When I picked my son up yesterday from school the Head said that my son isn't ready for mainstream. I am pretty sure they will support me with whatever I want and he needs to stay at his current placement at least for the next year. He isn't ready for mainstream not emotionally. If he's going to flip out about getting stuck with teachers he knows he can trust what would he be like in a school where his senses are going to be overloaded just with the sheer difference from such a small special school environment :(

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Yes go through all the AR material, and also speak with the school again yourself and ask them to put in writing anything additional that they are already providing, or think he needs [which should have been included in the AR anyway].

 

Remember that if the Statement is tight the new mainstream won't be able to deliver the Statement either. I would go and have a meeting with that Head Teacher and go over the Statement and additional recommendations as per AR reports [the head should have sent off a report to the LA and you about the recommendations for amendments].

 

If you speak with the Head of his current school and tell her that you want to send her a letter asking what their opinion is about your son regarding teaching approaches, teachers qualifications, therapy he currently receives from SALT or OT, and class sizes, learning environment, sensory issues, emotional literacy, social interactions etc. Ask her to give you some advice on how to word the letter so that they can respond to what are yours and their concerns. They might feel more able to comment in response to a letter from you that is wording in such a way as to be asking the right kind of questions, rather than you sending in a general letter and then responding in a "whistle blowing" type of way. Does that make sense? If the school are asked the question, they have to answer it. If you dont ask the question they may not raise the issue themselves.

 

Ask school to detail what happened in class, and also any other instances they have had in school. Ask them to keep a daily diary [as they should be already], and for you to do the same at home, so that you can submit that as evidence. No mainstream school is going to manage that type of behaviour. He would be excluded or even expelled. It might also be worth giving that information of exactly what happened to the mainstream school and ask them how they would respond to that behaviour on a regular basis. Then put it in writing in a clarification letter eg. "further to our meeting on xxxx we discussed x, y and z, and you told me a, b and c." You can submit that as evidence that the mainstream school would not cope with his sensory overload and inappropriate behaviour.

 

After speaking to anyone, send in a letter. Send in the details of what happened and ask them to be specific and quantify and specify [as per the SEN Code of Practice], how they would deal with outbursts like this. Because the Statement is a legally binding document that they must fulfill by law. So get her to specify what they would do or confirm that they could not meet these types of needs. And remind her that this behaviour is within a special school with small class sizes.

 

Does the Statement specify class sizes?

 

Is your son boarding at his current school?

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Hi Sally

 

We had the EP visit a few weeks ago and I now await the report. She seemed to be on our side but I don't trust anyone unfortunately, not to do with the Local Authority anyway.

 

I filed the papers for the appeal and have received the hearing details this morning. The tribunal is set for January 2014 :S

 

I am waiting for the EP papers to come through as the LA are then going to take my sons case to the County Moderating Panel (for the third time!) and dependant on the outcome from that I need to get the statement watertight!

 

I have the special school sixth form (where my son already atttends) on my side 100% and they said they will do everything they can to help. I just need to ask. So now my next move depends on what the EP report says.

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I've replied in your other post - so please read that. Has your choice of school put in a letter that your son has a place there. Has he been there for a trial of about 3 days. Is someone from that school coming to the Tribunal?

 

If it is the LA EP report I would not be expecting much. She may give a report that does not detail each and every need and which does not quantify and specify. She should do that by law. You can have a meeting with her, or write to her and ask her to do that if you feel her report is full of nothing. If you have a meeting make sure you have someone with you to take notes.

 

Don't get drawn into answering questions about what you want. It is not about what you want it is about them identifying what your sons needs are and providing that provision in a suitable placement. So don't answer any question like that. Say it is not about what I want. What DO YOU THINK/RECOMMEND.

 

If there are any needs/difficulties she has not identified, ask her to include them. For example our LA EP said that my son did not have Dyslexia, eventhough his Statement said he was likely to have dyslexia and that that needed confirming. She said she had not seen him for a year because the school had no concerns [at age 10 he could not read or write!]. And she said he did not have dyslexia. This was at the AR. I lodged a complaint with the Head of the EP service. They decided to do a full re-assessment - which just delayed the whole SEN process as I had to wait for a further total re-assessment and the new Proposed Statement/Finalised Statement to them have the right to lodge an appeal - which I knew I would always have to lodge anyway.

 

And surprise, surprise, 3 months after the AR she re-assessed him and confirmed he did have Dyslexia!

 

So be very precise with your questions. For example. My son has long term problems with organisation, planning, sequencing, short term memory and working memory problems that impact on his learning. You have not included those needs in your report. Can you include them, and then quantify and specify how those needs will be met in terms of hours and staffing arrangements and therapeutic input to improve these skills.

 

This is a link to a document by an organisation that gives advice on how to get the working/content of the Statement right. http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/Resources/ACE/advice%20booklets/GettingTheStatementRight%20Mar2011.pdf

 

Also www.ipsea.org.uk has alot of useful information on their website, especially about specific questions and problems that are common, as well as explanations of case law. Case Law means that a judgement has been made on a previous case about a certain aspect of law. Such as whether Speech and Language therapy is an educational need. Once a decision has been made by a judge, all other judges have to follow that decision UNTIL that decision is appealed and at the appeal that interpretation of law is overturned/amended. So it is very useful to know case law, especially those aspects relevent to your particular case.

Edited by Sally44

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