American study finds possible link between MMR & Autism

[jomica]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...ge_id=1770&ct=5

 

Just seen this in the Daily Mail online.

[baddad]

So now we're in for more of same... manipulated data from old, non-specific research presented as a 'study' and the same old 'spin' (and outright misrepresentation) we saw in the original 'MMR - The Facts' pamphlet as issued by your friendly, honest, reliable Gvt. D.O.H!

Must be a slow news day...

What was nice was to see that slight nod in the right direction - that the 10 original researchers disputed the interpretation but NOT the results... that tends to get overlooked most of the time (and probably will again when the Spin Dr's have had a go at it!)

 

L&P

 

BD

[DaisyFulkirk]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...ge_id=1770&ct=5

 

Just seen this in the Daily Mail online.

 

I would ask what you're wasting good time reading the Mail for but that might sound rude so I will just say that you should be careful because they are not well-known for giving balanced, unbiased coverage to things like that...

[allure]

from an american viewpoint, it's truly sad because they knew this when Wakefield published his studies back 8 years ago, and now the US has their own studies, and the sad thing is, in order for your children to be able to go to school over there they have to have had this vaccine! so in other words, give your child something that could potentially harm them and change the rest of thier lives, or don't educate them, in which case you are going to jail! It's sickening!!

Edited May 28, 2006 by allure

[jomica]

I would ask what you're wasting good time reading the Mail for but that might sound rude so I will just say that you should be careful because they are not well-known for giving balanced, unbiased coverage to things like that...

 

LOL DaisyFulkirk! That's why I didn't comment any further, other than to say that I'd seen it! I don't trust the DM one bit, but I think it's important we know what's out there.

 

I scan most of the papers daily - it's part of my job.

 

[Lucas]

Every one of us who reads the Daily Mail knows that Autism is caused by young children worried about asylum and illegal immigration.

 

I only read it because its good to laugh plus Peter Hitchens and Richard Littlejohn are two of the few journalists I can disagree with and respect at the same time.

 

Just to re-assert my position on MMR:

 

Does not cause Autism(water into wine). On the fence as to wether it is harmful to a selective vulnerable group. The government has the truth on its side, so why is it still lying? They just can't ###### stop lying!

 

Comments on the article:

 

What is 'regressive autism'? This unfortunately lets an informed reader know that the researchers(if they have indeed used this term themselves) are biased towards MMR being a cause. The terminology implies that children are developing entirely normally then becoming Autistic after the jab, they even pretend there is a such diagnosis as 'regressive autism'. There isn't.

 

In fact, they are even stating this is all the case even though the article says they've only tested 82 out of the 275 study subjects!!? Talk about pre-empting your own study.

 

It's since been pointed out to me by Michelle Dawson that this study has no non-Autistic control group to compare results with, yet there is a study that has just that which found that there was no Measles virus in our innards.

Edited May 28, 2006 by Lucas

[LizK]

Another snippet from the DM that no doubt will be arriving in the post from the ILs in the next few days

 

Firstly don't trust the DM as they have a very biased view of autism, cures and MMR. Secondly not sure what the study is saying. At the most there is an association between MMR and the presence of the measles vaccine in the gut wall lining but that is a long way from saying that it is actually causing MMR. They are using a very select group of autistic children, have announced result half way through the study which is poor scientific practice and where is the control group? Maybe all NT MMRed children have measles vaccine components in their gut lining too? What about children who have single vaccines, what happens to their guts?

 

Too many questions to draw any firm conclusions

 

Lx

[Lucas]

I have posted three comments to the section on that webpage and I know of several others who have done the same and raised similiar objections. Not one comment disagreeing or criticising the report or study has been allowed. I will be writing to complain.

[CarolJ]

Hi everybody popped in today after spending a lovely day at the Truckfest with my "truck" obssessed son who had a wonderful time, rolling under the trucks investigating the shiney Chrome wheels, whilst i sat on grass watching him! My son's idea of heaven.

 

My son is one of those who has "Acquired Autism and gut problems" - read with interest lucas' comment on "wine into water" and object to the fippancy of the comment - this was NOOO miracle!

 

Just wondering have the people who dismiss the and wonder if the measles virus can or does cause any damage to the human body when lodged in gut actually read the papers on what damage the gut suffers from constant measles infection and inflamed intenstines? "Leaky Gut" peptides leak into blood stream, into the brain affecting mylenisation of neurons! Not to mention the pain and agony many autistic children suffer in silence!!!!!

 

Take a look at these papers closely and you will see that the mechanism for autism does exist. More and more research now points to the immune system playing an important role in autism.

 

MMR changed my son from a normal developing toddler into the child he is today. I guess those who assume that this is some type of "miracle and cannot happen" best be thankful they havent witnessed it in their old child or it hasnt happened to them.

 

An update my son still isnt talking, still in nappies, and long term prognosis at a meeting at his school last month is that he will need institutional care!

 

If my son is one day capable of posting to a site like this and telling you lot what he suffers - Now that would really be a real Miracle!

 

Will continue to pop in from time to time.

 

Hey BD - hows ticks

 

CJ xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[CarolJ]

Having not long woken up here, pls excuse my typos!!!

 

Hey BD meant to say "hows tricks?" - Hope u and ben are doing well - speak soon :X

 

CJ xxx

[Kathryn]

Hi Carol, nice to see you!

 

K x

[annie]

Hi Carol,

 

Great to see you back.

 

Annie

xx

[CarolJ]

A report that some of you might find interesting to read!

 

"RESEARCH REVIEW INTERNATIONAL Vol. 20, No.1, 2006 Biomedical Update: Harvard researchers confirm Gl/autism link Harvard physician Timothy Buie recently reported that biopsies performed by him revealed the presence of chronic inflammation of the gastrointestinal tract, as well as the presence of lymphoid nodular hyperplasia, in 15 of 89 autistic children. The findings parallel those of Andrew Wakefield, the researcher who first identified the presence of a unique type of gastrointestinal disorder in children with autism spectrum disorders. Buie told a conference in December, ?These children are ill, in distress and pain, and not just mentally, neurologically dysfunctional.? Buie, Rafail Kushak, and colleagues also have measured the activity of dissaccharidases (enzymes that break down carbohydrates in the intestine) in tissues obtained from duodenal biopsies from 308 autistic individuals, comparing them to samples from 206 non-autistic controls. All of the subjects underwent endoscopy for suspected gastrointestinal problems. The researchers report, ?Autistic individuals with diarrhea [206 individuals] demonstrated significantly lower maltase activity than non-autistic individuals with diarrhea. Frequency of lactase deficiency in autistic individuals with failure to thrive [five individuals] was significantly higher (80% vs. 25%) than in non-autistic individuals with failure to thrive, and frequency of palatinase deficiency in autistic individuals with diarrhea was significantly higher than in nonautistic individuals with the same gastrointestinal problem.? Autistic and non-autistic individuals with other gastrointestinal problems exhibited similar frequencies of disaccharidase deficiencies. These findings further support the link between autism and a novel form of gastrointestinal disease, and are consistent with clinical evidence that many autistic children improve physically and behaviorally when they are placed on gluten- and casein-free diets and receive supplements of disaccharidase enzymes. �?? �?? �?? ?Gastrointestinal symptoms and intestinal disaccharidase activities in children with autism,? Rafail Kushak, Harland Winter, Nathan Farber, and Timothy Buie, Abstract of presentation to the North American Society of Pediatric Gastroenterology, Hepatology, and Nutrition, Annual Meeting, October 20-22, 2005, Salt Lake City, Utah. ?Gastrointestinal symptoms and intestinal disaccharidase activities in children with autism,? Rafail Kushak, Harland Winter, Nathan Farber, and Timothy Buie, Journal of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition, Vol. 41, No.4, October 2005. ?Harvard Clinic scientist finds gut/autism link, like Wakefield findings,? FEAT Newsletter, December 2005. Address: Rafail I. Kushak, Pediatric GI/Nu- trition, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA02l14."

[CarolJ]

Hi Carol,

 

Great to see you back.

 

Annie

xx

 

Thank you Annie, glad to be back - and thank you too kathryn

[baddad]

Hiya sparkles!!! <'> <'> <'>

 

Lovely to see you here again... you have been sorely missed

 

Truckfest sounds like a grand day out... glad S enjoyed, and that you got the chance to relax for a wee while, you deserve it...

 

Will drop you a PM...

 

 

Love ya, hun, and DOOOOOO stick around this time!

 

L&P

 

BD (and ben)xx

[mossgrove]

Articles like this donlt help anyone.

 

All it has shown is that a number of children with so-called 'regressive' autism have the measles virus in their gut following a measles vaccination. It hasn't actually 'proved' anything one way or the other. A pointer to where more research may be justified, but nothing more at the moment.

 

It's the latest in a long stream of articles from the DM that 'vindicate' Andrew Wakefield. According to the comments on the article the scientist behind this research works for Andrew Wakefield. The last one I read was also related to reseach involving Andrew Wakefield that, surprise, surprise 'Vindicated' his position.

 

As others have said, this is a situation that doesn't help either side. To me the case agoinst the MMR vaccine is being undermined, not helped, by Andrew Wakefields determination to 'vindicate' his original position to the point where much of what he now says is no longer objective and can easily be dismantled and dismissed by the Pro-MMR lobby.

 

Personally I am leaning towards Lucas's position. I have yet to see any objective research that says the incidence of Autism is higher in the vaccinated population than the non-vaccinated. There are plenty of documented incidents where regression has taken place post MMR. This leads me to believe that there are some vulnerable children who have had a regression 'triggered'by MMR, but this is not the same thing as saying that if they had not had the MMR jab (or had it in single doses) they would not have regressed at some point, or that the child was competely 'Autism-free' before the jab and would have remained so. Remember that regression has been with us since long before the MMR jab was invented and the MMR jab is given at an age were there is a high incidence of regression, more research is needed to establish if MMR is a cause or a trigger in post-vaccination regression. This is important because there are many, many parents who blame themselves for their childs regression because they allowed their children to have the triple vaccine, when the balance of probabilities appears to me to indicate that a regression was already latent and they would not have hada child growing up 'autism-free' if they had witheld the MMR vaccine.

 

Simon

Edited June 5, 2006 by mossgrove

[Suze]

I don,t believe the MMR played a part in my son,s autism, I,m pretty sure he was born autistic.But I feel that this MMR debate does have a basis and needs to be discussed.There are many parents that believe it played a role in their childs autism and gut problems..........more research is the key to find out once and for all.My son was born a small weak baby who failed to thrive and was admitted back into hospital with severe jaundice.........which lasted 8 weeks.I,ve looked into this via the net and jaundice to this extent brings on a form of cerebal palsy and learning difficulties.........there has,nt yet been a study regarding autism ......that I,ve found anyway.I,m still sitting on the fence in general though I go over lots of things in my mind as to why my son is ASD, my daughter was born with a congenital foot disorder too , I beat myself up about that aswell, blaming myself........the closest I,ve ever got to answering the question as to the nature of my boys asd is that he was susceptable and the jaundice perhaps was a trigger.........if that makes sense???.........

[call me jaded]

I personally think that many (not all) children with regressive autism were already showing some symptoms of autism before the MMR but that these would not necessarily have been picked up on by anyone. I have a friend whose son regressed and she was told that she was imagining that he had acquired language until she produced video footage. But looking back over it my friend now says that the use of language was not normal toddler chatter but a lot of echolalia and phrases from films, etc.

 

I've long maintained that my son was in trouble long before MMR (in utero, for sure) and that I did not see it as a trigger for him, but over the last year or so my view has shifted so that I DO think it was a problem. Accessing his medical records, he really started to fall off the weight and growth charts, suffered convulsions and became less responsive in the months after his MMR. Very slowly, almost imperceptibly but I think it happened all the same. Whether a scientific connection could ever be made is very doubtful and not something I will pursue. I don't for a moment think the MMR caused his autism. It's very significant that the government-commissioned research is all seeking a causal link and that's asking the wrong question IMO.

 

Purely anecdotal, but I see a connection with regression and gut problems.

 

The comments made on chicken pox virus (was that here or on the other thread?) I find very interesting. My current GP thinks it is very significant that my son had the pox at 4 months old. It's an indicator that his immune system was already struggling.

 

As for blaming myself for allowing the MMR, not at all. I was guided by the medical professionals whose job it is to know the contra-indications. Incidentally he did meet the criteria for not having it, but the questions were not asked (pre Wakefield). Something else I will not bother to pursue.

 

There is some evidence of very few incidents of autism in the unvaccinated Amish population. I believe there is a formal study under way which Dan Olmstead (journalist extraordinaire) was instrumental in getting started. And the Californian database (which has been around a long time in a fairly consistent format) is showing a decline in new cases of autism since thimerosol was removed from vaccines. There never was thimerosol in the MMR, but it was contained in the early childhood vaccines.

 

Much rambling, but the immune system link with autism is highly significant. It's not a question of there being one cause: they cannot even find an autism gene, but immune system malfunction is involved somehow. If Richard Lathe is right, all paths will (eventually) lead to the limbic system, but I haven't done enough reading on that to form any view whatsoever.

 

Anyhoo, back to the washing up.

[LizK]

Articles like this donlt help anyone.

 

All it has shown is that a number of children with so-called 'regressive' autism have the measles virus in their gut following a measles vaccination. It hasn't actually 'proved' anything one way or the other. A pointer to where more research may be justified, but nothing more at the moment.

 

Personally I am leaning towards Lucas's position. I have yet to see any objective research that says the incidence of Autism is higher in the vaccinated population than the non-vaccinated. There are plenty of documented incidents where regression has taken place post MMR. This leads me to believe that there are some vulnerable children who have had a regression 'triggered'by MMR, but this is not the same thing as saying that if they had not had the MMR jab (or had it in single doses) they would not have regressed at some point, or that the child was competely 'Autism-free' before the jab and would have remained so. Remember that regression has been with us since long before the MMR jab was invented and the MMR jab is given at an age were there is a high incidence of regression, more research is needed to establish if MMR is a cause or a trigger in post-vaccination regression. This is important because there are many, many parents who blame themselves for their childs regression because they allowed their children to have the triple vaccine, when the balance of probabilities appears to me to indicate that a regression was already latent and they would not have hada child growing up 'autism-free' if they had witheld the MMR vaccine.

 

Simon

 

That's one of my issues with the research, it's not impartial.

 

I don't know about MMR and autism. it certainly had nothing to do with my son's autism having shown signs since he was 3mths old and having no impact on his development once he had it. Having read lots of studies the scientist part of me says there is no link yet some of the anecdotal evidence is quite powerful. Not sure if this is what you were saying but I have wondered whether the MMR in a small proportion of children triggered a more 'severe' form of autism that otherwise wouldn't have been picked up until maybe the child was two or three. Such a scenario would fit in with the epidemiological evidence that here is no difference as the child would have eventually been diagnosed with ASD even if not so far along the spectrum but equally fit in with the anecdotal evidence from parents who have seen a marked regression.

 

Maybe some of the anecdotal evidence is coincidental. I can see how it might happen. The only thing that happened to my son when we first noticed signs was that he'd recently had his second DTP jab. For a long time I wondered and wondered whether the mercury in the vaccine was responsible looking for a cause of why things happened when they did but found out later that the vaccine he had was actually mercuryfree so he'd never been exposed to it. It was horrible though wondering if it could have been avoided so to find this out gave me peace of mind and I feel it was just one of those things.

 

I am concerned enough about MMR not to have my four year old's booster done and have delayed my 20mth old's MMR until I'm happier how he's doing (speech delay but NT otherwise) but not concerned enough to never have my 20mth old MMRed. Just waiting for the right (germ-free!) moment

 

Lx

[call me jaded]

Here's the first article by Dan Olmsted. Find it hard to believe this was published a year ago.

 

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/2005...15921-9566r.htm

[Lucas]

Dan Olmsted belongs to that group of mercury-parents in America that puts their fingers in their ears and sing loudly when you point out the holes in their logic.

 

If you take into account the amount of access the Amnish have to diagnosticians and how suitable their lifestyle would be to an Autistic person, the numbers of Autistics among the Amnish are fine. Dan Olmsted conveniently doesn't provide any explaination for why there are any Autistic Amnish at all.

 

I think a lot of people who have struggled to get their children a diagnosis or a diagnosis themselves would have stopped reading after...

 

The full-syndrome disorder is hard to miss...

 

'Full-syndrome Autism' is a term coined by Dan Olmsted to say that Autistic adults aren't really Autistic.

[call me jaded]

Dan Olmsted belongs to that group of mercury-parents in America that puts their fingers in their ears and sing loudly when you point out the holes in their logic.

 

Dan Olmsted is not a parent of an autistic child.

[Lucas]

I didn't mean to imply he was, though I keep getting the people mixed up because they all basically scream the same thing regardless of evidence.

 

I've found his Wikipedia entry now and it seems fairly neutral. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Olmsted

Edited June 6, 2006 by Lucas

[Lucas]

Sorry if it seems like I'm getting at you Jaded. I've been having some real-life problems here and I've been permanately angry for about a week now. Just had an awful and noisy weekend.

[call me jaded]

No need to apologise, Lucas.

 

Dan Olmsted does seem to be asking interesting questions to which no-one has the answers.

[Lucas]

Yes, but the only reason he's asking them is because he knows beforehand that no one can give him an answer. One of the things I find most shocking about people is how they ask questions because they DO NOT want answers, they want silence or something that can be twisted into supposed evasiveness.

 

If you challenge him on any of his insinuations(he's gone as far as downright claims) that Mercury causes Autism, he will ask you "Well what does cause Autism then?" and as he knows no one can give an answer, he maintains some imaginary moral high ground in the eyes of an uninformed third-party.

 

I can use the potatoe example: people used to believe that burying a potatoe would cure warts, but only certain kinds of potatoe treated by the guy selling it as a wart-cure. There is absolutely no reason why burying a potatoe would cure warts. But it doesn't matter that hundreds of people can try it and not be cured, you will always find one person who tries it and it co-incides with them suddenly ceasing to develop warts. This one person is than held up as proof that the cure works and if you challenge the cure, it is seen as challenging the person. They reply with "So you say I'm not cured of warts?" and become very emotive because they genuinely believe in the cure. Even to the modern day, quacks thrive on people who believe ridiculous things have cured them of all sorts.

 

They don't need to provide any evidence except for the emotional testimony of the cured. Unfortunately scientists and quack-busters can't convince a science-illiterate public of the fraud because when they challenge these things the reply is to the effect of "Well if this didn't cure my warts than what did?" to which no one can possibly answer truthfully.

 

Autism is a field which quacks love because it is viewed from the perspective that it has a cause and if that cause is known it can be cured or prevented, but no cause is known and Autism plain simply may not have a cause that is within our means to ever understand. He asks loaded questions where the only absolutionist answer that can be given is patently false, like a lawyer asking a defendant "How long is it since you stopped beating your wife?"

[call me jaded]

I totally understand the concept of quackery. Dan Olmsted is not peddling anything and I don't recall him ever writing a piece about curing autism.

 

Why there are so few autists in the Amish community is an interesting question. It could be that they are all out there undiagnosed.

[Lucas]

One of the listed sources used in the Wikipedia article is a 2006 study which found the normal level of Autistic people among the Amnish. The article erroneously refers to Autistic adults and other critics as 'anonymous' because we're all internet-based, despite being quite open with our real names. It was Dan Olmsted who claimed we are anonymous critics, therefore what we say doesn't mean anything along the similiar vein of because we don't have what he calls 'full-syndrome Autism'(he has provided no proof that Autism exists in degrees), then what we say is irrelevent to those he says do have 'full-syndrome Autism'.

[phasmid]

The comments made on chicken pox virus (was that here or on the other thread?) I find very interesting. My current GP thinks it is very significant that my son had the pox at 4 months old. It's an indicator that his immune system was already struggling.

 

sorry cant work out quote thingy and have just realised i am posting as phas and not ME mrs phas -- please forgive

 

phas jr had chicken pox at age 3 months as well which as i was totally breastfeeding on demand (he was like a flippin hoover) and he had no access whatsoever to ANY other children, the gp couldnt understand. however it is interesting to note that i was later (4years) discovered to have LSE.

[call me jaded]

One of the listed sources used in the Wikipedia article is a 2006 study which found the normal level of Autistic people among the Amnish. The article erroneously refers to Autistic adults and other critics as 'anonymous' because we're all internet-based, despite being quite open with our real names. It was Dan Olmsted who claimed we are anonymous critics, therefore what we say doesn't mean anything along the similiar vein of because we don't have what he calls 'full-syndrome Autism'(he has provided no proof that Autism exists in degrees), then what we say is irrelevent to those he says do have 'full-syndrome Autism'.

 

For full syndrome autism I took him to mean DSM-IV criteria for Autism, which excludes Asperger's and PDD-NOS which have separate entries.

 

Could be missing something, though.

 

Mrs P - the 21st century position previously filled by Inspector Clouseau remains currently vacant... I'd get Phas on the case now he's got nothing else to do.

[call me jaded]

One of the listed sources used in the Wikipedia article is a 2006 study which found the normal level of Autistic people among the Amnish.

 

I'm being really thick - which is the 2006 study you're referring too?

[Lucas]

The PubMed thingymabob is here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=16571880

 

I haven't been able to find the full study, but this is the one used by critics and science bloggers showing so many Autistic children in the Amnish population that it made them suspicious that even Dan Olmsted could have missed them. He largely only reported the facts that supported his conclusions. Personally, PubMed confuses me.

[call me jaded]

I found it on the researchers website. Not read it yet:

http://www.clinicforspecialchildren.org/format/CDFE.pdf