New AS support group now launched

[Canopus]

An organisation to support adults with AS and HFA who want a career in the high technology industry has now been launched. The temporary website is http://asperger.dissidentcongress.com but it will move to a permanent website shortly.

 

New material is still being added to the website, so if there is anything you want to include then send an email.

[Mumble]

Canopus,

 

I've just taken a look at the website - you might remember that following my diagnosis earlier this year I was told to consider a career in engineering rather than an academic research career (which I love so can't see why I would want to change ) because AS = engineering - so I found your site, particularly the part about only 1 in 10 with an AS diagnosis wanting a career in engineering very interesting. It might be worth in the furture trying to get some 'harder' statistics (with researcher names) just to make the point a bit stronger. I thought the first paragraph of the section on communication was very well written (do you know it's there twice?) and was something I could very much identify with - I wonder if the latter part on difficulties with small talk could be re-written in a similar positive vein - maybe something on the AS worker being less likely to be interested in office politics and the latest celebrity happenings (I say less likely - I don't want to annoy anyone by adding to the stereotypes, I'm writing more from my own experience) and so having more time to focus on which ever project they happen to be working on?

 

Mumble.

[Canopus]

It might be worth in the furture trying to get some 'harder' statistics (with researcher names) just to make the point a bit stronger.

 

Some time next month I will be launching an AS census for under 18 year olds. It will have questions on future careers.

[Canopus]

Asperger Technical has been given a new website

 

http://www.aspergertechnical.org.uk

 

The forum is up and running as well.

[pearl]

Thankyou canopus, this sounds right up J's street.

[Canopus]

One of the members of Asperger Technical has been sent an email informing them that the content of the website is both aggressive and likely to be counterproductive in practice.

 

Does anybody here agree with this? Is there anything you don't like or you think should be amended?

[pearl]

Hmmm, I bookmarked it the other day Canopus & have just been browsing following your latest post, & I must admit it doesn't sit easy with me. The tone seems very strident & aggrieved (though with some justification I'm sure) but I would hesitate to ask a potential employer, for instance, to browse the site. Thats just my first impression. Not sure AT ALL about the Hall of Shame, could be on very dodgy ground there.

[Canopus]

A decision was made yesterday to dissolve Asperger Technical due to a recommendation made by another AS activist. He claimed that although the content of the website was technically correct, it is detrimental to his own campaign. The members of Asperger Technical have reached a conclusion that it is unlikely that people with AS are capable of organising a successful support group because they don't understand human psychology to a sufficiently high level, so are unable to promote their message effectively.

[pearl]

"The members of Asperger Technical have reached a conclusion that it is unlikely that people with AS are capable of organising a successful support group because they don't understand human psychology to a sufficiently high level, so are unable to promote their message effectively."

 

Blimey. Do you agree with that Canopus? Seems a bit sweeping!

[Canopus]

It was quite bad what happened. Two people have now resigned from Asperger Technical because they got the impression that they are acting aggressively and seriously upsetting people. The webmaster has taken a hammering and some people who are upset won't even discuss matters with him - talk about shooting the messenger. He still wants to continue and mentioned he will update the site some time today.

 

The statement is very broad and sweeping and I was the only one to cast doubts over it but everyone else is convinced. One person mentioned that the reason why there is so much support for kids but so little for adults is because the parents and relatives of NT kids are usually NT, so have the tact and the people skills to organise effective campaigns and convince the establishment powers. Many adults with AS are weak on the people skills and write stuff in a hard hitting and offputting style and tone. It is interesting that you can often tell from an article about AS whether the person who wrote it is NT or has AS from the style of writing. Articles written by people with AS tend to have an undertone of grievance that is usually absent from articles written by NT people. Have you noticed this yet? There are times when I wonder if any NT people actually read articles by people with AS who aren't directly involved with people who have AS.

 

The plan is to find somebody to join us who is NT and has good understanding of business. I have a feeling this could be an ingredient of success.

[pearl]

Well, yes Canopus, it was that aggrieved "tone" about the website that worried me. I dont necessarily think though that you have to be NT to have a more sympathetic writing style, look at all the books that have been written over the last few years by ASD folk, Lianne Halliday Willey springs to mind immediately. And theres that guy, damn cant recall his name, I read his book recently, he's in his 30s & helps write policy for the labour party I think, he went to a v progressive asd school which was years ahead of its time. A gifted writer.

 

If you could find someone like that then the idea could fly. Hope you get something sorted, sounds like its all been v upsetting.

[Mumble]

Canopus,

 

I have been following this thread over the last few days and have to say that I have been quite upset by some of the generalised statements made. Whilst I appreciate that you are understandably annoyed, upset etc. by the dissolvement of the Website/support group I would suggest that the aggreived tone to these posts may in itself be detrimental to the promotion of the understanding of ASDs and people with ASDs.

 

Firstly, the statement that AS individuals:

don't understand human psychology to a sufficiently high level, so are unable to promote their message effectively

almost feels like something from a textbook of 'typical' ASD behaviour. As I am sure you, and those active on this forum, are aware, 'typical' and 'ASD' are problematic to conjoin in the same sentence; ASDs are described along a spectrum partially for this reason. Although the conceptualisation of a 'spectrum' is in itself a complex and oft debated term, other models that have been proposed seek to achieve similar goals; namely an understanding that, as for NT individuals, ASD individuals are unique and that within this uniqueness I/they have a complex set of difficulties that are changeable, often in response to the environment/context.

 

I can understand human psychology, perhaps not in the typical NT way, but in a way that works for me. As has already been mentioned, Liane Holliday Willey talks about this in her book, suggesting that some AS students may actually benefit from studying courses which would fall under the general label of psychology and that she found it possible to 'dissect the nuances of human behavior far more effetively when ... studying it as a science' (p.132). This is certainly how I approach my study/research and far from being a disadvantage, it occasionally gives me a different perspective on specific situations; rather than accepting the neurotypical interpretation, I have the ability to question such interpretations and pose alternatives that may often be overlooked by others. Liane is a doctor of education specialising in psycholinguistics: were it true that 'we' don't understand to a sufficiently high level, this would not be possible. I began my doctorate, which involves complex aspects of educational psychology and mathematical cognition, before I was diagnosed; I haven't 'lost' this understanding since my diagnosis. What I have done is gain an understanding of my approach which can only serve to strengthen the work I do.

 

The point I think you are trying to make, that ASD individuals may find it harder to advocate for themselves, is certainly worthwhile making. However, it does need such tempering. At times I do find it much harder than an NT to cope, but this is often with things that are so called 'simple tasks'. Yes, I do have meltdowns, and yes, I can appear very 'different' but this does not mean that I cannot be as successful, more successful, or differently successful as NTs in an NT world.

 

Many adults with AS are weak on the people skills and write stuff in a hard hitting and offputting style and tone. It is interesting that you can often tell from an article about AS whether the person who wrote it is NT or has AS from the style of writing. Articles written by people with AS tend to have an undertone of grievance that is usually absent from articles written by NT people.

It was this, perhaps moreso than the lack of understanding of human psychology, that upset me most. I am glad you have tempered this statement with words such as 'often', 'tend' and 'usually' but there is still an air of that 'undertone of grievance'. I, and many, many other 'more able' (here I use this term loosly and I certainly do not wish to cause offence to any forum users) AS individuals have had to develop a strong understanding of themselves in order to get by in an NT world and with/alongside NT expectations. Some of the excellent writers have already been mentioned. Kamran Nazeer (this is actually a psuedonym), the Whitehall policy writer Pearl mentions, does not have this air of grievance - his writing, I don't believe, could be easily demarcated from an NT style.

 

For me, writing is a release in an NT world where I, at times, find it very difficult to communicate verbally. The errors I make in my speech (for instance tense useage, sentence construction etc) simply do not occur in my written work. I rely on my writing in order to communicate my ideas and thankfully I have a very supportive university environment where my need to communicate in this manner is recognised and I can compete on an equal footing with my NT peers. The papers I write are not interesting for their AS-ness, they are interesting (I hope!) to people in the field for their ideas, thought processes and advancement of knowledge. I do not wish my work/writing to be judged any differently from NTs researching in my field, but I am accutely aware that I need to put something extra into my writing in order to compensate for my more limited skills in verbal presentation.

 

I hope you do not construe my post as an attack on your thread. This is certainly not my intention. My objective has simply been to present another side to/interpretation of, the abilities of those with ASDs which may go overlooked because of stereotypical 'understandings' of the limits to our capabilities.

[mossgrove]

I can understand human psychology, perhaps not in the typical NT way, but in a way that works for me. As has already been mentioned, Liane Holliday Willey talks about this in her book, suggesting that some AS students may actually benefit from studying courses which would fall under the general label of psychology and that she found it possible to 'dissect the nuances of human behavior far more effetively when ... studying it as a science' (p.132). This is certainly how I approach my study/research and far from being a disadvantage, it occasionally gives me a different perspective on specific situations; rather than accepting the neurotypical interpretation, I have the ability to question such interpretations and pose alternatives that may often be overlooked by others. Liane is a doctor of education specialising in psycholinguistics: were it true that 'we' don't understand to a sufficiently high level, this would not be possible. I began my doctorate, which involves complex aspects of educational psychology and mathematical cognition, before I was diagnosed; I haven't 'lost' this understanding since my diagnosis. What I have done is gain an understanding of my approach which can only serve to strengthen the work I do.

 

 

Mumble

 

I agree absolutely. I think it applies to many people with ASD's at the so-called higher functioning end of the spectrum. Where i think ASD issues come in is because this understanding is not instinctive or immediate (i.e. the understanding has to be 'worked out' over minutes and sometime even hours or days) which can lead to difficulties during the 'cut and thrust' of conversation as responses are often required immediately. Hence expression in writing is easier for may people with ASD's. as it allows for thinking time.

 

Simon

[Canopus]

almost feels like something from a textbook of 'typical' ASD behaviour. As I am sure you, and those active on this forum, are aware, 'typical' and 'ASD' are problematic to conjoin in the same sentence; ASDs are described along a spectrum partially for this reason. Although the conceptualisation of a 'spectrum' is in itself a complex and oft debated term, other models that have been proposed seek to achieve similar goals; namely an understanding that, as for NT individuals, ASD individuals are unique and that within this uniqueness I/they have a complex set of difficulties that are changeable, often in response to the environment/context.

 

The chapter on AS from a psychology textbook published 10 years ago instantly sprang to my mind after hearing that statement, but other people agreed strongly with it even after telling them it's lifted from a textbook. I asked them to elaborate and explain things in more detail and their replies centred around the fact that people with AS have so much difficulty understanding how NT people tick and their unwritten attitudes, it makes it hard for people with AS to advocate for themselves or others. One person then asked any barristers have AS.

 

I can understand human psychology, perhaps not in the typical NT way, but in a way that works for me. As has already been mentioned, Liane Holliday Willey talks about this in her book, suggesting that some AS students may actually benefit from studying courses which would fall under the general label of psychology and that she found it possible to 'dissect the nuances of human behavior far more effetively when ... studying it as a science' (p.132). This is certainly how I approach my study/research and far from being a disadvantage, it occasionally gives me a different perspective on specific situations; rather than accepting the neurotypical interpretation, I have the ability to question such interpretations and pose alternatives that may often be overlooked by others. Liane is a doctor of education specialising in psycholinguistics: were it true that 'we' don't understand to a sufficiently high level, this would not be possible. I began my doctorate, which involves complex aspects of educational psychology and mathematical cognition, before I was diagnosed; I haven't 'lost' this understanding since my diagnosis. What I have done is gain an understanding of my approach which can only serve to strengthen the work I do.

 

I have access to quite a lot of ordinary psychology textbooks at home and have been reading them every now and then for over 15 years. This probably explains why my knowledge of psychology seems to be higher than that of other adults with AS I have met so far. It probably would benefit many people with AS to study general psychology as a science.

 

One result of AS is that I tend to see things from a different perspective to most NT people, and question matters that most people accept as the norm or the status quo. However, questioning the norm can be a dangerous game in a world where most people with NT will take a majority consensus to stay safe. Look what happened to Galileo for starters. Employers often prefer taking on people who are nice rather than critical.

 

I agree with Mossgrove about the delayed understanding and the difficulty people with AS have in situations where answers and responses are needed quickly. This is detrimental in job interviews where a lot of information is condensed into a short space of time and answers and explanations are required instantly. There are lots of times when I have to spend time thinking things through.

 

It was this, perhaps moreso than the lack of understanding of human psychology, that upset me most. I am glad you have tempered this statement with words such as 'often', 'tend' and 'usually' but there is still an air of that 'undertone of grievance'. I, and many, many other 'more able' (here I use this term loosly and I certainly do not wish to cause offence to any forum users) AS individuals have had to develop a strong understanding of themselves in order to get by in an NT world and with/alongside NT expectations. Some of the excellent writers have already been mentioned. Kamran Nazeer (this is actually a psuedonym), the Whitehall policy writer Pearl mentions, does not have this air of grievance - his writing, I don't believe, could be easily demarcated from an NT style.

 

It all depends on what people with AS are writing about. If they are writing about something that isn't AS then there is usually no need for an undertone of grievance, although the style of writing does have a tendency to be more abrupt and to the point rather than lucid. This is ideal for factual work such as instruction manuals and encylopedias. It isn't always the best for advocacy work where a lucid and eloquent style will often make a greater impact with an NT audience. The reason for an undertone of grievance when writing about AS is the result of bad experiences, and a dislike of the way most organisations favour NT people over people with AS.

[Mumble]

It all depends on what people with AS are writing about. If they are writing about something that isn't AS then there is usually no need for an undertone of grievance, although the style of writing does have a tendency to be more abrupt and to the point rather than lucid. This is ideal for factual work such as instruction manuals and encylopedias.

 

Canopus,

 

I cannot agree with you on this. Writing is, for me, as I have said before, my main mode of communication; it is something I enjoy, something I do well and something that I intend to be central to my academic career. Everyone who writes, whether out of choice or through the requirements of their employment/study, brings their own style. This style will of course be mediated by the audience, editorial requirements, college regulations etc etc. I do not believe that a writing 'style' can be attributed to AS and I have certainly not come across any research to this end. To suggest that an AS 'style' should condone me, or others on the autistic spectrum, to writing instruction manuals is likely to be detrimental to your cause.

[Canopus]

I cannot agree with you on this. Writing is, for me, as I have said before, my main mode of communication; it is something I enjoy, something I do well and something that I intend to be central to my academic career. Everyone who writes, whether out of choice or through the requirements of their employment/study, brings their own style. This style will of course be mediated by the audience, editorial requirements, college regulations etc etc. I do not believe that a writing 'style' can be attributed to AS and I have certainly not come across any research to this end. To suggest that an AS 'style' should condone me, or others on the autistic spectrum, to writing instruction manuals is likely to be detrimental to your cause.

 

You are probably the exception rather than the rule. Another exception is Stephen King - assuming he has AS - because his writing is very lucid and rich.

 

If you do a search through the archives of this forum you will find that writing is a common problem amongst kids with AS although the intensity varies from person to person. I have discussed writing with my psychologist and he thinks that the style of writing of many people with AS displays certain traits although there are plenty of NT people whose writing shares exactly the same traits. Also, certain styles of writing are unlikely to originate from people with AS. One example he mentioned was articles from tabloids such as the Sun. There hasn't been much research into this subject to date.

 

In no way am I trying to imply that AS people are better off writing instruction manuals that anything else. What I mean is that AS people tend to prefer a simple but functional style such as "the cat sat on the mat" rather than more lucid style such as "the feline was poised in a recumbent position upon the Axminster floor covering". Now which is the best style for the literary masterpiece and which is the best style for the instruction manual?

 

At the end of the day, the optimum style of writing is determined by the audience for the written work. In theory this is simple if one knows the audience, but it can be difficult if one doesn't know the audience, or if the work is designed to be read by two or more distinct audiences. Asperger Technical is a perfect example of the second case. The first audience is people with AS who will prefer a style that resonates with their own experiences and explains things in a format that is easy to follow and understand. The second audience are people from the high technology industry who want to know more about AS and how they can accomodate such people in the workplace and meet their needs whilst benefitting from the skills and expertise they have to offer.

[Mumble]

Also, certain styles of writing are unlikely to originate from people with AS. One example he mentioned was articles from tabloids such as the Sun.

Perhaps because AS individuals have average or above average intelligence . . .

 

I am sorry to say that I have gone from being upset, to being insulted, by your comments. I am sorry that your website didn't work out but to put this down to difficulties with writing styles doesn't help anyone. Perhaps you could try again for a longer period of time?

 

'Lucid' writing does not need to involve the use of 13 words when 6 will do - there is much more to different writing styles than that. As to ASD children having writing dificulties, I have commented in this thread myself as I have experience of this as a teacher; as you will have seen, style is just one amongst a whole host of constraints and difficulties.

 

I do understand that you have been upset by your experiences, but please don't use these to take away what I, and many other AS individuals, enjoy. In many ways I am glad I don't fit your 'rule' for it is in rule fitting, or in the expectation from NTs that we will fit particular models/rules, that AS/ASD individuals suffer.

[Canopus]

I am sorry to say that I have gone from being upset, to being insulted, by your comments. I am sorry that your website didn't work out but to put this down to difficulties with writing styles doesn't help anyone. Perhaps you could try again for a longer period of time?

 

The excessively aggressive style of writing was only a minor issue as it could easily be rectified. The serious issue is that the existence of Asperger Technical posed a threat to somebody else who has been working on a similar project for several years and has invested a lot of time, money, and effort into it. Their feeling was that Asperger Technical could undo all of their hard work in a short space of time. In fact this other person has refused to even discuss matters with the people behind Asperger Technical (including the webmaster himself who is responsible for the site design and not its contents) in order to reach consensus or even join forces. This is the real reason for disbanding Asperger Technical.

 

The webmaster says he wants to continue with the project and has re-instated the website but removed most of its contents. I'm not so sure whether I want to continue because of the fear of being detrimental to somebody else's project.

 

'Lucid' writing does not need to involve the use of 13 words when 6 will do - there is much more to different writing styles than that. As to ASD children having writing dificulties, I have commented in this thread myself as I have experience of this as a teacher; as you will have seen, style is just one amongst a whole host of constraints and difficulties.

 

I have encountered several people with AS who have a poor grade for their English GCSE but good grades in other subjects. This often hinders them finding employment or accessing higher education courses. In most cases these people can communicate well in plain clear English and have been let down by the requirements of the GCSE specification.

 

I do understand that you have been upset by your experiences, but please don't use these to take away what I, and many other AS individuals, enjoy. In many ways I am glad I don't fit your 'rule' for it is in rule fitting, or in the expectation from NTs that we will fit particular models/rules, that AS/ASD individuals suffer.

 

I'm not trying to take out my anger on anybody here or compartmentalise AS and NT people into particular models.

[mrs phasmid]

The serious issue is that the existence of Asperger Technical posed a threat to somebody else who has been working on a similar project for several years and has invested a lot of time, money, and effort into it.

 

sorry canopus, i have been following this thread with interst as phas jr will be leaving school next year and i thought your website would be ideal

but the above doesnt make sense to me[sorry if ive mmissed something or am just having a senior moment] you just have to look to see how many autistic help forums and websites there are out there. i know when i googled fancy rats i got about a gazillion hits

so how can one person say only this particular website, over all the others offerring the same type of thing worldwide, is detrimental to my project

as i say it doesnt make any sense

[baddad]

Hi all...

I'm going to very tentatively dip a toe in the water on this one because it does seem to be going into some difficult territories. I'll probably just muddy things even further, but what the hey!

Mumble, I agree with you to a point about some of the assumptions being made here, but I think that maybe you are guilty of making some too... certainly your experience of autism is as valid as Canopus' or anyone elses on the spectrum, but it is an individual perspective. No individual experience can define autism any more than any individual experience can define 'neurotypicality'. Some autistic people are good writers/some aren't. Some neurotypical people are good writers/some aren't... Accepting that as perfectly reasonable doesn't tell us anything about the dynamics at play on the Asperger Techical forum, or within the group who were contributing to it...

What would seem to be a basis in fact is that autism/AS is predominently viewed as a communication disorder and while it goes without saying that the 'definition' is a wholly neurotypical one (and therefore rather biased!) the underlying principle is that there are difficulties arising in communication between autistic people and neurotypical people that are complex enough to give rise to a diagnostic criteria based on those differences.

Given the above, it would seem fair to assume that for many autistic people communication with neurotypical people (and vice versa) - whether written or spoken - would be fraught with the potential for misunderstanding. I'd agree 100% that written communication often seems to bridge that gap better than other forms of communication for those who can practice it but it doesn't overcome it completely because the fundamental 'differences' still exist.

In a nutshell, I think if the guys contributing to the forum thought it was a problem they are probably in a better position to make that call than anyone outside of the forum!

Offering one final observation - it can be very easy to cause offense, even unintentionally...

 

(Canopus) Also, certain styles of writing are unlikely to originate from people with AS. One example he mentioned was articles from tabloids such as the Sun.

(Mumble)Perhaps because AS individuals have average or above average intelligence . . .

 

If I were a tabloid reader - AS or otherwise - I might just feel a little bit pigeonholed and irritated by that last quote

 

L&P

 

BD

[Canopus]

sorry canopus, i have been following this thread with interst as phas jr will be leaving school next year and i thought your website would be ideal

but the above doesnt make sense to me[sorry if ive mmissed something or am just having a senior moment] you just have to look to see how many autistic help forums and websites there are out there. i know when i googled fancy rats i got about a gazillion hits

so how can one person say only this particular website, over all the others offerring the same type of thing worldwide, is detrimental to my project

as i say it doesnt make any sense

 

I find this very baffling as well. The information on the Asperger Technical website was typical of the material that can be found on many other websites about AS.

 

I can't prove this to be true, but I have a sneaky suspicion that the crux of the matter is Asperger Technical invading somebody else's territory as a competitor. This other organisation is very low profile and I had never previously encountered it.

 

Asperger Technical still sort of exists, so if you have any advice you wish to offer then drop them an email using the address on their website.