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Frangipani

Do you find it hard to forgive and forget

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I am feeling rather angry at the moment..... well I havent had the best week my daughter has been sick and in a bit of school refusal at the moment until I made her take a hard look at herself and her future if she doesnt knuckle down, feel like her ups and downs are really draining.... so this is why I am feeling a bit exhausted with the next paragraph..... :(

 

I am doing a Fine Arts course at the moment and there are definitely two or three Aspies in the class, one in particular seems to socialise okay but this one in particular goes up to them and taps them and say hello, whatya doing and I over heard one of the women who is 34 mocking this poor guy, how he just stands there and looks but doesnt say anything, she said this makes her feel uncomfortable. He may not be an Aspie but I notice things in people and find myself wondering, are they aspie and feel guilty as these could simply be quirky behaviours, but this womans behaviour really got to me.... quietly my blood boiled and I walked away not saying a word. I was so dissappointed in this woman, she considers herself quite intelligent and successful, so why does she see it fit to have a laugh at someones social difficulties and personality and anxiety problems. The guy suffers from sleep Apnea and his having a series of tests. I didnt think it affected me the mocking, but I have taken a few days off as I feel so hurt. I find it hard to socialise with people with such small minds. Hopefully this will not affect my course, and I will keep going. We are about to have holidays so a few days off may help me cool down, and forgive and forget.

 

sorry I guess this is really a bit of a rant, or a huge rant. B)

 

:(

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Hi Fragipani,

 

I found your post very interesting - I'm not sure what your question is, but I'll share my experiences. I'm a 'mature' (i.e. over 25 - not a lot of mature about me :lol::whistle: ) student at my uni - many people say that bullying behaviour (and what you describe is a form of bullying bahaviour) doesn't exist in university and adult education. This is plain and simply wrong - it may be less (university has been my first positive educational experience), and particularly less obvious (which perhaps makes it worse because people may not understand that they are being targetted), but it does still exist and can be very hurtful.

 

I was targetted last year by another student who couldn't cope with my poor social skills, communication difficulties and lack of communicative reciprocation - she spent most of the year (and the previous year on another course) mocking me, repeating things I'd said that weren't quite 'right', staring at me in lectures etc. - when she didn't get a response this way (I think she wanted me to lose it completely so the lectureres would ask me to leave - we were in competition for the same studentship and she was threatened by the fact that despite my poor communication, I was still doing well) she took to shouting at me. Unfortuantly for her, other students reported this to the lecturers and in the end it was she who left. I haven't had problems to this extent since, but the other students certainly don't understand me and actively seek not to be in the same room as me. They tell me I work too hard and that the amount I worry about my work is not normal (hey - you think I hadn't worked that one out for myself?), but they don't seek to try and actually understand me - and these are supposed to be some of the most intelligent people around :wallbash::angry:

 

Could you perhaps speak to a lecturer/tutor about this - at least that way they're aware and can keep an eye on what is happening? I know I would have just let the student carry on bullying me if another student hadn't said something - this is what I had put up with in school and so was what I expected. It took someone else's actions to make me realise I didn't have to tolerate other people's problems with my differences. This is the sort of stance I take now with the other students - if they can't cope with who I am, that's really their problem - it does upset me that I don't have any friends, but I wouldn't want to be friends with such intolerant people anyhow.

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Theres a young man who lives near me and hes a lovely guy to me its obvious hes on the autistic spectrum but i found my blood booiling when he was on the bus and two grown up so called mature older woman were taking the mickey out of him and saying he gave them the creeps and he was a pervert ect.............I was so ###### angry i thought cant you see theres something amis .yet im ashamed to say i didnt say anything because if i did i would have let rip and i was also upset.thinking this will be my son in a few years time people laughing stareing being scared maybe...........

 

theres a lot of ignorance and it doesnt necessaraliy come from the younger end who i often find are better informed than most adults who tend to be very narrow minded and in the mind set all they need is a good smack or should be locked away...........

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No matter the age.....there are a lot of cruel and very wicked people out there.

Maybe we are just a bit more sensitive and knowing, I can't bear cruelty or bullying in any shape or form to either humans or animals. There is a man who walks his dog in the local friends some of the other dog walkers avoid him saying his weird, I have gone out my way to speak with him, I don't think he's on the spectrum but very shy and probably a bit lonely. We have a common interest in our dogs so its been easy to strike up a conversation, over the months he has become quite chatty and always greets me with a nice smile and we stand and had a quick chat whilst our dogs play. The others now seem to have come around and will now say hello and let their dogs play, I've never said anything to them but wonder if they feel ashamed of their previous behaviour.

Clare x

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This kind of thing is really difficult, and i think we do have to do what we can to point other people's insensitivity and/or prejudices and to see alternative perspectives, but i also think we have to do that in a way that emphasises tolerance rather than just mirroring the other persons 'flaws' back at them - otherwise we are equally guilty...

I also think we have to be fairly 'measured' in our responses - i.e. if someone is guilty of thoughtlessness or insensitivity we make our point thoughtfiully and with sensitivity, and save our stronger reponses for people who are being deliberately nasty, intimidating or bullying (and I think in this case we highlight the 'general' inapproprioateness of their behaviour rather than risk patronisiong the victim as a 'special case').

Conventional psychologist 'wisdom'(?) suggests that our angry responses are 30% situational and 70% historical - that most of the anger we feel is accumulated from our experiences of similar events rather than the event occuring at the time. The more often something happens to you (or those you care about) the bigger that 70% is and the larger the over-all emotion the new event triggers. It's not easy (impossible?) but the more you can do to focus on the 30% rather than the rest the more likely you are of offering a balanced and effective response...

Now, having said all that I can be a right stroppy beggar when my various 'seventy percents' get challenged, so please don't think I'm taking any moral high ground... That's never stopped me,though, from wishing that i could/had done it the 'right' way! :lol::lol::lol:

How I'd like to do it: gently take the offender aside and explain in precise, simple terms the reasons why I think their behaviour is unacceptable, and ask them to stop doing it. Advise (If felt necessary) that you believe their behaviour is intolerant of the needs of others, and that if it doesn't stop you will take your concerns further...

 

Now having done that, you have to accept that they may well just tell you to eff off and mind your own business (or worse), and that if they are dominant personailities within a bigger group you may well find yourself being victimised/isolated too... That being the case, I think Mumble's final paragraph is a very healthy response:

 

This is the sort of stance I take now with the other students - if they can't cope with who I am, that's really their problem - it does upset me that I don't have any friends, but I wouldn't want to be friends with such intolerant people anyhow
.

 

L&P

BD (the seventy percent man!)

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BD (the seventy percent man!)

<Stuffs sock in mouth to avoid saying anything I might regret. Finds fingers still work, so puts on a pair of mittens>

kjhd aoyhoiu oyhyo qaupo

<Hmm, takes off mittens>

 

Sorry, Baddad, couldn't resist - I've been at the cola - great for the teeth - makes me so insane I forget all about having toothache!!!!

 

Now as to your post . . . you're right that there's a balance to be had between pointing out others' insensitivities (but this isn't easy when they and others can't/won't accept the behavior/comment as insensitive because to laugh at difference/misunderstanding is so ingrained within our society to the extent it is seen as normal), educating them and avoiding being equally guilty (am I guilty for deciding to ignore the students who ignore me? :tearful: )

 

Your 30/70 response is very acurate (though don't get me started on 'bigger 70%s' - it makes the mathematician in me very uncomfortable!!!!). I know that I get upset by others mocking my/others' lack of understanding etc. because I've had to put up with this throughout my education and attempts at work. BUT, just because there is a history to my reactions does not excuse the protagonist's bahviour that led to me getting upset, particularly if it is repeated behaviour. Even if behaviour is not deliberate, people still need to understand how hurtful their behaviour/comments can be, and they are not going to understand unless such behaviour is pointed out to them, possibly in an obvious manner.

 

Of course we should respond to the 30%, but we can't ignore our pasts or who we are, and we shouldn't have to constantly be explaining our 70%, particularly to people who should be more understanding. I've learnt the hard way (fists are very hard :tearful::tearful: ) that reacting to people who upset me doesn't help, and so I don't know the way forward. I'm lucky that in my university I have lecturers who understand me, but that doesn't help in my relationships with other students (if anything it's a hinderence because I'm seen as 'special'). My strategy may be a healthy response, but not having friends isn't. Yes, a balance needs to be found, but the 'victim' shouldn't always have to be the one searching for that balance.

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Hi mumble - very quickly 'cos i'm pushed for time...

I wasn't suggesting that the 'victim' should be the one searching for the balance, But I do think it's something that the victim and their genuine friends/support networks have to do, because - quite patently - the people attacking them aren't going to...

I also wasn't suggesting that the victim should need to explain their 70% I was just saying that if they are aware of it themselves and try to work with the other 30% they are likely to make a better job of addressing the immediate problem rather than the historical ones...

Laughing at 'difference' is ingrained - that's the nature of any prejudice. Considered responses (however unfair that might be) are more likely to effect change, because the other - no matter how justified - will be turned into another weapon against you... Martin Luther King achieved more than the 'black power' movement ever did - because he tackled prejudice by leaving no room (intellectually) for argument. Those with a desire, willingness and capacity to understand DID; the remainder were not (will not) be swayed by any sort of pressure, but will use any sort of (perceived) 'militant' response as justification for pedalling their bile...

Sorry gotta run - burnt dinner!

 

L&P

BD :D

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Thanks BD, sorry for taking a bit too strong a line earlier, I'm just feeling very 'trapped' at the moment by the comments/reactions of others and the way I react to these comments (that'll be the 70% coming through . . . :whistle: ). I'm not coping with my diagnosis, I know this, but knowing that there is a real reason for my difficulties actually (at least at the moment) makes the comments of others harder (if that makes sense) - I don't find it so easy any more to laugh at myself when, for instance, I take non-literal language literally :tearful: . My uni are suggesting that with the support they're putting in place for me I should be able to come up with intelligent responses to others' lack of understanding/mockery/whatever you want to call it, and that I will help to educate others about difference. I'm just cross that the effort has to come from my side, but I do agree with what you say. I do wonder though how easy it is to educate without evoking the 70% - I guess I have to try, fail, try again and hopefully find a way that works. I am terrified though that in doing so I am giving those who don't want to understand another weapon to use against me.

 

Now as for your burnt dinner, char-grilled is the word you're looking for, and this is a vastly under-estimated cooking style and one that I employ whenever someone suggests I go near the kitchen . . . :whistle::lol:

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Thanks BD, sorry for taking a bit too strong a line earlier, I'm just feeling very 'trapped' at the moment by the comments/reactions of others and the way I react to these comments (that'll be the 70% coming through . . . :whistle: ). I'm not coping with my diagnosis, I know this, but knowing that there is a real reason for my difficulties actually (at least at the moment) makes the comments of others harder (if that makes sense) - I don't find it so easy any more to laugh at myself when, for instance, I take non-literal language literally :tearful: . My uni are suggesting that with the support they're putting in place for me I should be able to come up with intelligent responses to others' lack of understanding/mockery/whatever you want to call it, and that I will help to educate others about difference. I'm just cross that the effort has to come from my side, but I do agree with what you say. I do wonder though how easy it is to educate without evoking the 70% - I guess I have to try, fail, try again and hopefully find a way that works. I am terrified though that in doing so I am giving those who don't want to understand another weapon to use against me.

 

Now as for your burnt dinner, char-grilled is the word you're looking for, and this is a vastly under-estimated cooking style and one that I employ whenever someone suggests I go near the kitchen . . . :whistle::lol:

 

Char-grilled? No it's Cajun....... ;)

As for as the uni suggesting that you should be able to 'come up with intelligent responses' :angry::angry::angry: (but only 30%!) the whole point is that if their support was getting it right you shouldn't NEED to...

Maybe it's a bit early for you yet (dx wise, I mean), but i think for most it does bring a sense of 'relief' and make it easier to deal with the 70% in the long term. At the risk of sounding twee, I think (but am open to suggestions) it might be a 3 stage process - the first being relief, 'cos "It's not ME, it's AS :unsure: " followed by a "It's not ME, it's THEM :angry: " and then, hopefully an "It's not ME or THEM - It's me :thumbs: ". That third stage is the important one, and while there will undoubtedly be good days and bad days that acceptance of 'self' and personal validity/self esteem/value helps to take some of the sting out of all the cr*p that others can't or won't see past...

L&P

BD :D

 

Oh - BTW - that 'bigger' 70%... 70% of 5 'incidents' is 5 times the size of 75% of a single incident (or thereabouts) ;)

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Char-grilled? No it's Cajun....... ;)

Cajun you say - that would be the spicy with lots of flavours mixed together style, right? At least with char-grilled/burnt it all tastes the same (predictability you see . . .)

 

The uni's argument seems to be that for others not to react badly to my difficulties or to the extra support I get, I need to have so called scripted intelligent responses. I think the problem is that my department hasn't had to deal with any student with a disability before, not least a disability that in many peoples' eyes (including some of the lecturers) can't be something a research student in a top university could have - I really do think that some of them would equate ASDs with rocking and dribbling in the corner (sorry if this upsets anyone) without a moment's hesitation (or else they expect me to have savant abilities) :angry:

 

As to your three-point process, Im pinning my hope on this:

the first being relief, 'cos "It's not ME, it's AS :unsure:

Check. Been there, done that, enjoyed that stage, couldn't find the T-shirt in my size.

 

followed by a "It's not ME, it's THEM :angry: "

Check - sort of there. Plus really hating myself a lot of the time for being different.

 

an "It's not ME or THEM - It's me :thumbs: ". That third stage is the important one, and while there will undoubtedly be good days and bad days that acceptance of 'self' and personal validity/self esteem/value helps to take some of the sting out of all the cr*p that others can't or won't see past...

Looking forward to reaching that stage.

 

Well, your first two worked, so there's hope yet. During a recent assessment I had, I was told about the first two stages and why I now felt as I did. I was wondering if there was a stage beyond and when it would come, so you've given me hope :thumbs:

 

Oh - BTW - that 'bigger' 70%... 70% of 5 'incidents' is 5 times the size of 75% of a single incident (or thereabouts) ;)

Erm, I'm not going to get into a mathematical discussion - but by your argument, the 70% is the 5 incidents, so it's number of incidents rather than percentage. It will always be history/past experiences constituting 70% of a response, but for some, they will have more in that relevant history, so it's a bigger history, not a bigger percentage. 70% of a 6" pizza is less pizza than 70% of a 12" pizza, but each is still 70%. And I've gone off on the pedantic thing again :oops::whistle::lol:

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During a recent assessment I had, I was told about the first two stages and why I now felt as I did. I was wondering if there was a stage beyond and when it would come, so you've given me hope :thumbs:

 

Blimey! I didn't realise I was talking sense! :lol::lol::lol: (first time for everything!) Well now it's 'official!'

 

F - sorry for hijacking your thread a little, but it is still fairly close to the original theme... i'll get out now while i'm ahead.... me making sense, eh? Whooda thought it?! ;)

L&P

 

BD

PS: 70% of a 12" Pizza has twice as many carbs :(

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Sorry from me as well F. :oops:

 

PS: 70% of a 12" Pizza has twice as many carbs :(

4 times as many carbs actually because the radius is squared . . . (really sorry, pedantic when it comes to maths is my gift . . . :whistle::whistle::lol: )

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Sorry from me as well F. :oops:

 

 

4 times as many carbs actually because the radius is squared . . . (really sorry, pedantic when it comes to maths is my gift . . . :whistle::whistle::lol: )

 

Well done - you spotted my deliberate error :o:whistle::whistle:

 

And again F :(;)

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Hi Mumble & Baddad,

 

Hijacking the thread :rolleyes: not at all, I am actually enjoying reading your responses, keep going its good. In many ways you both filled in the blanks, I like the 30% & 70% theory and the its not me its not them its me bit.

 

I guess I am hypersensitive in the 70% side of things as I have watched my boy from the age of 4 and I have suffered with him. The thing is often the 'offender' will say something without a second thought or batting an eyelid, or even a second thought about how a comment like this could affect this guy.

 

Immediately I though of my son, and how insensitive some people can be and how frustrated he must get with ignorant people like this. Thinking that this only happens to people with ASD is wrong, it happens to everyone.

 

It is the human spirit, human condition, people can be so cruel and spiteful...... at times. I guess when you have that 70% factor you are more hypersensitive to criticism - and its good to be able to know that...... and step back,....... cool down....... get out of the hot house....... until you have calmed down.......????? Hard to do at the time.

:lol:

 

Not sure if this makes sense it is after midnight here just edited this post as waffled on without having time to edit early this morning Aussie time of course. Too tired to edit this will look at it in the morning.

 

I will say something calmly and politely if it continues.

 

Thanks again, my eyes are hanging out of my head at present :hypno:

 

Good night over there, or have a great day.

 

;)

Edited by Frangipani

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