I'm mortified

[kazemporium]

Have decided to book my son into some clubs as he is now getting his DLA and thought it only fair that he gets something out of it.

I telephoned the scout group to see if they had any spaces and what nights etc. She said they do have a space and to come a week Wed as school hols nxt week. I thought it only fair to mention that he has aspergers, you would of thought i had said he had a contageous life threatning illness.

She said that they all ready have one aspergers child and can't cope with another one.

I am mortified i really didn't expect that reaction.

I am an honest person and did not want to take him along and them think he is a naughty spoilt brat.

Maybe the next people i telephone i should't mention it to them.

 

what do you all think is it best to be honest or not ?

Edited May 22, 2007 by kazemporium

[aro]

This link might be useful

 

scouts SEN

 

Here's the main site

 

scouts

 

I would be contacting them for their views on this discrimination!!!!!

[stressedmumto2]

I can imagine how upset/angry you are I would of been too. I do absoloutly believe that honesty is the best way for activities like this.

 

I think I would take it up further after all not all children have same difficulties etc. bUt then again I do not think I would really wnat my son to be in that enviroment if that is the way they are, let us know what you decide to do,

 

take care <'>

[mumble_rocks]

I AM SOOOO ANGRY!!!

 

Involved in Scouts myslef for 4 years in that time I have changed such alot and I cant see why it should be a problem. Your Scouting distict should have a District Commisioner and a SN Commisioner for the disrict or county, get in contact with them. And please for your sons sake dont give up!! PM me if you have any questions

[KateBall]

I am having a major problem with Beavers / Cubs at the moment. Have made a complaint because the beavers who ds been with for 3 years wouldn't let him go up to cubs - or maybe it was the cubs who wouldn't let him. They say because they are full but this is rubbish as they let others go up - younger than my son. They just don't want to cope with him and yet he's been so good. Anyway - it seems rife. I am on the brink of taking it to the local press if I can.

[cmuir]

I think honesty is the best policy. I really think the response you got was disgraceful. We're supposed to be living in a society of inclusion and acceptance. They have no idea about your child's difficulties in terms of mildness or severity. I'm afraid I'd be complaining and pointing that out to them as well as offering to help out!

 

Caroline.

[David Matthew Baker]

Most Scout groups up here are crying out for members. Really they should at least be willing to give a child a trial run before deciding if there is a problem. Then I would argue where possible they should make allowances for that child. I'm sure most groups could get extra support if needed. Even if just from one of the older groups of Scouts. For Explorers (I think that is what they call them now - used to be Ventures) it would be the sort of thing that could be used as service towards getting the Queen's Scout award. I'd certainly talk to the people higher up in your area. Try looking here for a email contact address:

 

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/direct/ukemail/view.php/2?

[forbsay]

Hello

 

I used to be a Beaver Scout leader many years ago. A mother asked if her son could join and said he was autistic. I said of course he can. What I found was that the other boys looked out for this wee boy. I will always remember having a fancy dress party for them all and he can as a Mickey Mouse - it was priceless!

 

Forbsay

[kazemporium]

Thanks everyone for you replys, i am pleased you agree with me, i am going to email and see what response i get.

I explained to her that he only has mild asp and that the only problems they would encounter would be his bad sportsmanship. I think he interacts with others fairly well. He can get a bit over excited at times.

Her attitude was i know all about asp and there are only 2 leaders so we would not be able to cope. She was very negative with me B**CH

[Bagpuss]

Kaz, I think she has made a huge generalisation here, and obviously is not knowledgable about ASD to have made a sweeping comment like that. I would of thought it would come under disability discrimination. Our eldest dd joined Brownies recently. They were made aware that she has AS, and had no probs at all. She absolutely loves it. Good luck and hope your son is given a place ASAP.

[dooday24]

that is disgusting no wonder u r angry i do think honesty is the best policy i thought we were in the 20th centry not back in the dark ages. equal rights wat a laugh. id write to my mp if i was u. i write to mine all the time, goodluck, and keep us updated love donnaxxxxx

[Diamondmask]

I am pretty sure this would be covered by the DDA. However before you push this, you might want to ask yourself if you really want your son to attend a club where the only way he can get in is if you wave the DDA in front of their faces.

 

Personaly I would fire off, all guns blazing at them, get in touch with the DRC and the Scouting organisation and report them. Then find another Beaver Pack and join that one.

 

Sarah

[Diamondmask]

Her attitude was i know all about asp and there are only 2 leaders so we would not be able to cope. She was very negative with me B**CH

 

 

oh goody! Another *expert*! If she *knows* all about AS and ASD's then surely she knows all the interventions available to cope with 2 ASD kids???!!!

 

Sarah

[Clare63]

Pure discrimination ! too angry & cross to write anymore.

 

Clare x

[sandyn]

Hi I can really sympathise with you as I have had a few problems with my son's beaver division. He also has ADHD and his meds have worn off by the time he attends so he's quite hard work. Ive had a few "run ins" with the leaders about his behaviour. DH and I agreed to attend the sessions as a helper (we take it in turns). This went on for about 6 months until we (and the leaders) felt happy we could leave him on his own. First it was for the first half of the session and now we leave him for the whole session. He still misbehaves but hey, don't most 6 to 8 year olds? I've seen them in action - trust me - all 20 of the little b***ers!!!

 

Having said all that, when he first started I was very disheartened with the leaders attitudes. I e:mailed the Scout Association as to their policy for non-physically disabled children. Hope this okay to post their reply:

 

The Scout Association is committed to equality of opportunity for all young

people. Our Equal Opportunity Policy states that no young person should receive

less favourable treatment on the basis of physical abilities.

 

Our Volunteer Leaders have information and support available to them to help

them provide Scouting to young people with special needs, however if you feel

more support is needed with understanding your child's condition we would

recommend that you in the first instance speak with his Section Leaders about

your concerns. Perhaps they need more help or information on supporting him and

ensuring that he and the rest of his friends in the pack get a good Scouting

Programme.

 

If after this you still have concerns we would suggest that you obtain the

details of The Group Scout Leader and arrange a chat with them as they are

responsible for all the Leaders and young people in their Group.

 

Try another scout unit or contact the scout asscociation for advice. It makes me so cross, because they wouldn't have this attitude to someone in a wheelchair.

 

Hope this helps a little and good luck.

 

Sandra

xx

[kazemporium]

Hi I can really sympathise with you as I have had a few problems with my son's beaver division. He also has ADHD and his meds have worn off by the time he attends so he's quite hard work. Ive had a few "run ins" with the leaders about his behaviour. DH and I agreed to attend the sessions as a helper (we take it in turns). This went on for about 6 months until we (and the leaders) felt happy we could leave him on his own. First it was for the first half of the session and now we leave him for the whole session. He still misbehaves but hey, don't most 6 to 8 year olds? I've seen them in action - trust me - all 20 of the little b***ers!!!

 

Having said all that, when he first started I was very disheartened with the leaders attitudes. I e:mailed the Scout Association as to their policy for non-physically disabled children. Hope this okay to post their reply:

 

The Scout Association is committed to equality of opportunity for all young

people. Our Equal Opportunity Policy states that no young person should receive

less favourable treatment on the basis of physical abilities.

 

Our Volunteer Leaders have information and support available to them to help

them provide Scouting to young people with special needs, however if you feel

more support is needed with understanding your child's condition we would

recommend that you in the first instance speak with his Section Leaders about

your concerns. Perhaps they need more help or information on supporting him and

ensuring that he and the rest of his friends in the pack get a good Scouting

Programme.

 

If after this you still have concerns we would suggest that you obtain the

details of The Group Scout Leader and arrange a chat with them as they are

responsible for all the Leaders and young people in their Group.

 

Try another scout unit or contact the scout asscociation for advice. It makes me so cross, because they wouldn't have this attitude to someone in a wheelchair.

 

Hope this helps a little and good luck.

 

Sandra

xx

Thanks that is a great help X

[pearl]

I'd always be inclined to disclose, lets face it would you honestly want him there given her reaction?

 

I cant believe things have changed so little - I tried to get JP into beavers over a decade ago & met the same response.

 

A few years ago our local Barnardo's project started their own scout troop - had JP been younger I'd probably have gone with that option. Is there anything like that near you?

[kazemporium]

I'd always be inclined to disclose, lets face it would you honestly want him there given her reaction?

 

I cant believe things have changed so little - I tried to get JP into beavers over a decade ago & met the same response.

 

A few years ago our local Barnardo's project started their own scout troop - had JP been younger I'd probably have gone with that option. Is there anything like that near you?

No I don't think there is, i am going to try other scout groups and see if i get a different response.

How are children like ours meant to learn to deal better with social interaction if they are not given the oppurtunity its disgusting.

[kazemporium]

Have emailed the Kent head office and will let you all know what response i get.

Thank you for all your help

 

Can anyone suggest any other activities clubs that he could join, i live in a village and there is not alot going on but there maybe other things in the town.

Karen

[pearl]

Well, JP adores taekwondo, & is over halfway to black belt in just 18 months. Its ideal for ASD children - very structured with a clear moral code, & a clear progression through belts so you can see your progress, plus the sparring encourages interaction & its only a small part of the discipline.

 

We didnt even disclose for a while, until he came home in a panic one day having not understood some global instruction about the next meeting, at which point I emailed them & asked them to make sure they told him important stuff individually.

[wilson]

Hi,

 

I am sorry to hear you have had such a bad response. My little boy has just joined his local Cubs and so far everything is fine. We told the Cub Leaders that he had Asperger Syndrome and they seemed quite aware, one of the other boys in the pack has AS too. I knew I had to be open about Harry's ASD because he finds it difficult to understand verbal instruction and he will need to be properly prepared for activities such as trips out and camp. I agree with others on this forum, your son had a disability and he is being discriminated against because of this.

[Minx]

Hi

 

My son has just joined the local group. I told the leader about his autism and she seemed very accomodatining. Another severe disabled boy in a wheelchair started on the same night. All the other children seem to have accepted Adam and seem to look after him. He made his promise the other week and all the children said the promise with him, which was really great support.

 

Just thought I would let you know a positive outcome so far anywhere.

 

Mandy

[Noetic]

I can understand why you feel upset but look at it this way - if they have such an attitude aren't you glad you didn't have to find out after something went wrong or your son was exposed to their attitude for any length of time? OTOH they may well just have been honest with you - the other AS kid might have been very demanding of their attention and they didn't want to stretch themselves further than they can cope.

[sams mum]

I'm a brown owl and couldn't cope with more than one special needs child in my pack, its not because I don't want to be able to cope, I simply don't have enough help to go round.

 

I can understand a parent being upset when told a child can't join a pack but I fail to see how being practical can be classed as discrimination. I think this is one occasion where we have to think with our heads and not our heart.

 

So as a brown owl and the mother of a child with profound autism can I suggest a couple of things that may make it possible for your son to be absorbed into the pack.

 

perhaps get a relative to go along to the pack as an additional helper,

 

maybe you could even do it yourself if time allows, as the mother of a special needs child you would be a great asset in an organisation where volunteer help of any kind is really hard to get.

 

try for direct payments and employ someone to accompany your son,

 

ask if there is a scout or cub in the local pack who would be willing to be at beavers with your son, he might be working for an ward and this could help with it.

 

I honestly believe there's a way round this disapointment

[Pippin]

Hi, I'm another Brown Owl and can see the problem from both sides too. I've occasionally had to take my son along to a meeting when no-one else can have him, and it's a nightmare. I only have one other adult helper and 16 excitable girls to occupy. I know Scouts and Guides have anti-discrimination policies but please remember the whole movement is run by volunteers. We cant just get someone else in to help with special needs children unless someone volunteers to do so...and that's rare (getting parents to do ANYTHING is impossible!!. Most view it as cheap babysitting). My son will be 10 next year and able to go to Scouts (no cub pack here) but I know he will only be able to go if his Dad goes to every meeting with him. If you think your son could cope without extra help in the group why not ask to stay at a few meetings with him to prove that to the Leaders. Good Luck

[sams mum]

I know Scouts and Guides have anti-discrimination policies but please remember the whole movement is run by volunteers. We cant just get someone else in to help with special needs children unless someone volunteers to do so...and that's rare (getting parents to do ANYTHING is impossible!!. Most view it as cheap babysitting). ck

 

 

Never a truer word spoken. It never ceases to amaze me that its the parents who expect most from brownies who are usually the first in the door at the start of a session and last out the door at the end of one.

 

I disgress, sorry

[kazemporium]

HI Pippin and Sams Mum

Thank you for your replys i understand your views, but i am not talking about an animal his behaviour is not too bad. I explained to the leader that he has mild asp and the onlytime she will really encounter a problem is if they play games where children are excluded ( ie musical bumps type games). I did help about 10 yrs ago at my older sons Beaver group as it was going to close down so i stepped in with another mum and ran the group for 6mnths so i know what the boys do when they attend. I know my son would cope well. She wouldnt even give him the oppurtunity to go along for a couple weeks trial. I think this was unfair. I know asp children have a label but they are still individuals with individual needs. I am a childrens entertainer and come across children with different needs and some that do not know how to behave but that is part of my job. I also ran my own Baton twirling troup with 30 girls and no helper so i do understand the pressure on the leaders of the brownies and cubs.

well done to you both for running your groups without parents like yourselves these groups would have to close.

[lisa]

I'm a brown owl and couldn't cope with more than one special needs child in my pack, its not because I don't want to be able to cope, I simply don't have enough help to go round.

 

I can understand a parent being upset when told a child can't join a pack but I fail to see how being practical can be classed as discrimination. I think this is one occasion where we have to think with our heads and not our heart.

 

 

ASD is a wide spectrum and there are many ASD 'special needs' kids in school who don't get any help at all, so to refuse Kaz's son a place because 'we have an ASD child already and couldn't cope with another one' is in my opinion discrimination. Every child is different. This scout leader hasn't even met the child and doesn't want to give him a chance. Had she met him before refusing she may have been pleasantly surprised and welcomed him with open arms, but as soon as she heard 'AS' she didn't want to know. A fairer option would have been to suggest a trial to see how it worked out and if they felt they couldn't cope, discuss alternative options to include him eg. parent, relative, friend staying to support him. It's wrong to refuse point blank to even entertain the idea. It goes against the whole ethos of the scouting movement.

 

Thankfully, I don't think this is the norm and the majority of scout leaders welcome kids of all shape, size, colour and creed, disabled or not.

 

My son went through beavers and cubs and they were fantastic. It was a very positive and enjoyable experience which every child should have the opportunity to experience. He was fully included on all trips and camps, they got to know him as a person and were aware of his difficulties and oddities and made allowances accordingly. They didn't need any additional helpers, just awareness and a bit of understanding. In fact they were very glad to have him in their pack when they won the district cub quiz four years on the trot!!!!

 

Perhaps this scout leader needs reminding that to have a child with special needs in your pack isn't always hard work, it can be very rewarding too.

[Pippin]

Hi, As he's been turned down without any chance of a trial I think you need to speak with your area Commisioner to see if anything can be done. I really hope you can sort this out as I'm sure he would benefit tremendously from going. If you need any help finding out who your local officials are PM me and I'll do a bit of research for you.

[kazemporium]

Hi, As he's been turned down without any chance of a trial I think you need to speak with your area Commisioner to see if anything can be done. I really hope you can sort this out as I'm sure he would benefit tremendously from going. If you need any help finding out who your local officials are PM me and I'll do a bit of research for you.

Thanks Pippin

I have emailed them already but they have not replied and it was about a week ago.

[madme]

When my son was younger he went to Stagecoach. At the time we didnt know about the AS just the ADHd and dyspraxia- they were fantastic. He was included in a very positive way and had parts in shows- and not just on the sidelines- despite his obvious difficulties sitting still, moving around the stage and remembering his lines. Hope you get this resolved. We have recently considered Brownies for DD 6 who is also ASD. Years ago we tried local group for son who upon hearing "ADHD" were not at all pleasant and very unhelpful- it was obvious we were not wanted.

[sams mum]

Kaz, you said,

 

but i am not talking about an animal his behaviour is not too bad.

 

I'm sorry but I really fail to see how the above came about, but your sons

difficulties probably mean he does need extra attention and as parents we can't have it both ways. We can't fight for the extra attention our children need at school and beyond then say they don't need it when it suits us. You mentioned one other ASd child being in the pack and I think we have to look at the bigger picture here , could it be possible that this child has rather complex needs and there is just no way the pack leader really can take on another asd child given the first childs needs. Could it possibly be that the lady and her probably very few helpers really are already working flat out at running the pack as it is.

 

I think the most this lady is guilty of is not taking time to explain to you why she couldn't take your son, I suspect if you called her and asked her to elaborate on why she said no, you may at least understand why she did even if you don't agree with her saying it.

 

I forgot to add that my 18 year old daughter is a young leader at Rainbows, they have two Aspie children in the pack, one diagnosed and one who isn't, she tries her best with them drawing on the experience she's gained with her brother but is the first to admit that even with the best of intentions from everyone involived, the children just do not get out of rainbows what the should be getting. Also, the pack leader is the lady who works with my son, for 6 hours a week, on a one-to-one basis and has done for 4 years.

 

 

hth

Edited June 5, 2007 by sams mum

[sams mum]

Lisa I think kaz mentioned there is a child with AS in the pack so I still fail to see how discrimination is taking place here.

 

and its great your son was integratrated into the his pack so well but can you recall how many other children with ASD were in the pack or was he the only one, because I think more than one child would make a huge difference to how things can be managed. As would there abilities in general.

 

you said,

 

ASD is a wide spectrum and there are many ASD 'special needs' kids in school who don't get any help at all,

 

 

jeez, there's me with a 16 year old profoundly autistic son and I swear I didn't know this kind of thing happened.

 

 

 

the majority of scout leaders welcome kids of all shape, size, colour and creed, disabled or not.

 

I couldn't agree more but as the brown owl of a non-uk based multinational/mulitfaith/mulitsized/multishaped pack I can't recall every having to provide the help to these children that a special needs child requires, especially one with the difficulties our children can have.

 

I think its great your son did so well at beavers etc but lets not forget that just because it worked so well for your son without very much intervention doesn't mean it will work for others the same way.

 

 

[kazemporium]

Sams Mum

Thanks for your comments, as a leader you can obviously see things in a different way. I have calmed down a bit now, i was just fuming at the time.

I am still waiting on a reply from the Kent hq but they are obviously busy people too.

 

I do not know where the other local groups meet so i have no contact details for them, i am hoping to try one of the others in the area and hopefully they will have the helpers to cope with another child.

 

Because of the womans attitude i will not even contemplate offereing to help if he joined them. She was very rude and needs to learn some etiqute

[sams mum]

kaz, I'm glad you're feeling better even though you're still unhappy with the situation and I know only too well just how much it hurts when we think our children are being treated badly. It can be very difficult to think with our head instead of our heart, especially when we feel as if our heart will break.

 

I still think you should talk to the lady again, she may have been rude and unhelpful first time round

but like us she is probably just human and could have been having a bad day. I'm sure there have been times over the last 16 years when people have described me as a right witch simply because the day they met me I was being one.

 

I know you're now going to look around for another pack but if he was offered a place at the original one you would probably be able to do a lot of good as a volunteer....even if its just teaching the leader etiquette

[sams mum]

I just wanted to add something else, anytime I've approached someone with a view to them having any kind of contact with my son I've always mentioned the autism first and not as an incidental, I usually say something along the lines of.........hi there, I've been told you teach horse riding and I was wondering if you'd like to try and make a difference in the life of an autistic child.

 

It never fails to work and even if the person can't help I'm usually told why very nicely.

[kazemporium]

I just wanted to add something else, anytime I've approached someone with a view to them having any kind of contact with my son I've always mentioned the autism first and not as an incidental, I usually say something along the lines of.........hi there, I've been told you teach horse riding and I was wondering if you'd like to try and make a difference in the life of an autistic child.

 

It never fails to work and even if the person can't help I'm usually told why very nicely.

 

I like that approach i might try that one myself. If someone said that to me i would def give them a chance.

 

I have parents phoning me to book their childrens parties and they always mention if their child has a disability. As soon as they mention it i always reassure them that i am happy to do their parties and that i do have a son with asp. The parties have all been a great success. I did one at the weekend for a 6yr old girl and i would never of known if her mum had not told me.

[lil_me]

Have you considered offering to go with your son, even if it's just at first ? With a volunteer ran organisation such as the cubs/beavers/scouts etc this is what I usually immediately offer to do.

[kazemporium]

i managed to speak to someone at another beaver group last night and my son is starting next week. He was lovely and said he and the other leader are both teachers and have lots of experience with asp children. They are a large group and have two groups one for 6 - 7yr olds and one for 7-8yr olds. As my son is 7 in a couple of weeks i suggested keeping him with the younger group due to his reading abilities but he said the 7 - 8yr old group only has 8 members so that group will def be better. which i agree with. He apologised for the other leaders comments and didnt seemed surprised when i told him what she said.

 

I will let you all know how he gets on next week.

[aro]

That's fantastic, hope he has a wonderful time. Also hope that action is taken over the other woman!

 

A x