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pleasehelp

An open mind is...

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Hi again to all on this board who can recall me and also to those who don't-I hope you are all doing okay and my thoughts are with anyone having a hard time right now. As an adult AS/ADHD person with 1 child same dx and another gonna be seen this month I feel I have to ask you people here to take a look at this link and tell me how much relevance and influence you think it has over the problems we face at present not least in education-your thoughts are appreciated :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering

Edited by pleasehelp

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BIG BUMP

 

Your children are not ill they were guilty of being born with freedom of thought and expression that is all, I love you each and every one but do not ignore my voice:

 

[Edited by moderator to remove link]

Edited by Kathryn

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Hi Pleasehelp,

 

Welcome back. :)

 

I've removed the link in your second post. Because of its political nature, I don't think it's suitable for the forum - sorry.

 

Can you give a bit more information about the subject of your first post? Clicked the link, but I'm not sure what I'm meant to be looking at and why. :unsure:

 

thanks

 

K x

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Okay I see your point Kathryn-politics has no place in any discussion relating to autistic spectrum disorders OBVIOUSLY :rolleyes:

Let's try this another way-I think people here should take a look at new scientist this week, its available to view online for anyone interested in what is really going on-please be patient with me and thank you thus far for noone having jumped on this thread and trying to flame me off the forum :)

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I apologise for my confusion, but apart from being sarcastic and mysterious, I don't understand what you are trying to communicate.

Could you explain what you want us to know more clearly? In your own words?

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There is not really any information on the Wikipedia link, so it's difficult to know how the concept might relate to us. Do you have a link to the article in the New Scientist?

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I looked at The New Scientist on line today, but I couldn't see any articles about ASD that might be relevant??

 

Bid :wacko:

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Hi Pleasehelp

 

Same here, I am not sure what 'social engineering' has to do with being an aspie except that they are not good at it.

 

I am positive you have a very good point in your mind and you have made me curious to know what it is

 

Pragmatic

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I am not sure what 'social engineering' has to do with being an aspie except that they are not good at it.

We have difficulties with social communication, not social engineering. Social engineering is about bringing about large scale changes in beliefs often without the 'changed' realising there has been a change in their beliefs and actions. Where social engineering takes the forms of laws and rules, I would suggest that we are more susceptible as we generally seek to conform to such rules. Where social engineering is more subtle and about social change without rules (basically a large scale version of people acting as sheep - following what others do without question because they want to be seen to be doing what the crowd is doing) we are perhaps less susceptible because we generally don't actively seek to follow the crowd.

 

Pleasehelp - are you saying that a mass need to follow the crowd (whether we call it being a sheep or social engineering) is at the root of a number of difficulties faced by AS adults? If so, then yes, but this is what being AS is - I'm happy not to follow the crowd and as long as I can do so without it becoming an issue of following/breaking the law, then I'm fine with that. To me, it's the people who want me to follow the crowd and who can't see that a different way of 'being' is not only viable but also perfectly ok and doesn't have to endanger their sheep type existence who are the people missing out on life. If such people cause me a problem they're not the sort of people I want to know.

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Yes mumble you are on the right track, thank you for your contribution. Now, if our children are in a way more susceptible or naive or whatever you want to call it why then are they so badly persecuted by a system supposedly in place to help them? You only have to look around at what people like onlycrazygal is having to endure to see examples of this. How much of our kids problems do you think are attributable to trauma? Look at the mountain gorilla story-a simple bunch of souls, one of their babies was shot by poachers and now the entire family mistrusts humans and is acting 'odd'. All because they were not permitted to just 'be'. Humans are capable of some truly heinous atrocities, yes? If further proof were needed you only have to take a look at films like the Killing Fields as a great example of this. I for one have no wish for history to keep repeating itself yet it does and society seems to learn nothing-now ask yourself why.

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Okay I realise what Im saying may still be a little obscure. Putting all this another way-down through man's ~(and womans) history for that matter we have been controlled by dogma of one sort or another, whether it be from religion eg catholicism, islam etc or communist ideologies-without it society generally tends to descend into chaos-I firmly believe that some of the worst chaos and extremist behaviour comes from ideology as it happens. Fear and greed seem to dominate everything we do. If we don't find a way to exist a little more altruistically then we will always succumb to these swings from one extreme regime to another and all that keeps happening is that social momentum keeps swinging like a huge pendulum from one ideology of how to reach some sort of utopian state to another and so on and so on. If we looked a lot harder for a third way-ie a more altruistic society we could go a long way towards healing ourselves and our children.

PS In my previous post I mentioned trauma but this can be applied to many things eg environmental trauma (poisoning our DNA with the toxic cr@p that sits on supermarket shelves in the guises of food and consumables, emissions from cars planes etc. the list goes on but you get the idea), trauma from world atrocities which must then surely end up in our genetic make up (how else does animal instinct develop) and so on. Hope this makes what Im saying a little clearer?

Edited by pleasehelp

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Okay I realise what Im saying may still be a little obscure. Putting all this another way-down through man's ~(and womans) history for that matter we have been controlled by dogma of one sort or another, whether it be from religion eg catholicism, islam etc or communist ideologies-without it society generally tends to descend into chaos-I firmly believe that some of the worst chaos and extremist behaviour comes from ideology as it happens. Fear and greed seem to dominate everything we do. If we don't find a way to exist a little more altruistically then we will always succumb to these swings from one extreme regime to another and all that keeps happening is that social momentum keeps swinging like a huge pendulum from one ideology of how to reach some sort of utopian state to another and so on and so on. If we looked a lot harder for a third way-ie a more altruistic society we could go a long way towards healing ourselves and our children.

PS In my previous post I mentioned trauma but this can be applied to many things eg environmental trauma (poisoning our DNA with the toxic cr@p that sits on supermarket shelves in the guises of food and consumables, emissions from cars planes etc. the list goes on but you get the idea), trauma from world atrocities which must then surely end up in our genetic make up (how else does animal instinct develop) and so on. Hope this makes what Im saying a little clearer?

hi

i have AS and it does not make any point at all to me let alone normal people

what are you trying to say that you want more awareness ,pity what

because i really dont get this at all

i have four on the spectrum but it does not matter i am at peace with it and dont have to prove anything at all

people take us has they find us or walk away simple

It is not about history anial instinct or anything else

things happen simple has that and you have a choice to deal with or bleet and blame other things

we are only put down or ridiculed if we let it bother us and if it does stil bother people then you need to look at who as the problem

All these things were going on years ago and people just get on with it

we must stop living in the past and what ever stereotype we are given

we are who we are and no amount of awareness or acceptance will ever change that

shell as adult with four on the spectrum

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Yes that's right ignorance is bliss isnt it :S I doubt very much you would see it that way if someone decided to take your kids into care or worse would you? Plenty of holocaust survivors could tell you what is wrong with taking the 'it's not my problem' attitude Im sure. Being AS and being ignorant are 2 different things and I dont think it's a good idea to use the one to indulge in the other.

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Yes that's right ignorance is bliss isnt it :S I doubt very much you would see it that way if someone decided to take your kids into care or worse would you? Plenty of holocaust survivors could tell you what is wrong with taking the 'it's not my problem' attitude Im sure. Being AS and being ignorant are 2 different things and I dont think it's a good idea to use the one to indulge in the other.

 

I think this reply is uncalled for...you haven't been very clear in your posts and a few of us have tried to find out what you are hoping to discuss.

 

Bid

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...you haven't been very clear in your posts and a few of us have tried to find out what you are hoping to discuss.

 

Bid

 

I think my Grandfather's advice would be to take more water with it.

 

Pleasehelp, perhaps you need to float your theories on a different Forum, like Wrongplanet. They might have a better understanding of what you mean.

Edited by Bard

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If your going to promote an altruistic society it helps to practice what you preach. If you communicate your message through ambiguity and are unwilling to compromise in order to facilitate a clear understanding of ideas and thought then your pretty much stumped if your wanting a mass social upheival.

 

You bring up the extremity of human attrocity, laughably by comparing a label out of a diagnostic manual that you tend to have a choice about to being jewish which you dont have much choice about. As a consequence you demonstrate the foundation of that very hatred that fueled the hatred nazi ideology. I have a great idea on how to build society, im disgusted you dont agree with me, what hope does humanity have if we leave these kind of "disagreable" types in our population. Hypocracy at its best, hope you can see that or your arrogance needs a check.

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ignorance

 

no not ignorance reality

i am in the real world i do not stew with my disorder i work with it.

i have no make up covering who i am nor want any

shell

Edited by spectrummum

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Hi all -

 

This thread seems to be edging from 'opinion' into 'personal attack'...

 

pleasehelp - your original posts were obscure to say the least. Several members took the time and trouble to try to understand them and offer opinions. Your response has been accusations of wilful 'ignorance' and 'I'm alright, jack' attitudes to the struggles faced by others.... Are we both looking at the same forum?

In an earlier post you mentioned 'flaming'... if this thread continues in the same vein it will be closed. That won't be because of 'flaming' or because of the opinions being expressed - it will be because of the way those opinions are being expressed: with aggression and with a lack of respect/consideration for others.

 

 

L&P

 

BD

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Well in that case baddad you may wish to reread spectrummums original reply and consider whether some of her remarks might have been considered as a personal attack?? Or maybe I just misinterpretted what seemed to be to me venomous comments for the sheer hell of it. Fine if someone does not understand what I have to say or does not agree that is something I have no problem with, but some of the comments were uncalled dont you think? If she doesnt think anything in this thread applies to her then why the vitreol?

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And OMG Ive just read the comments by Laz-look at the title of this thread, I have merely suggested that an open mind is a good place to start-how does that make me a hypocrite?? And at what point could you have possibly deduced that I am in any way arrogant or am in any way in favour of neo-nazism because I dared to suggest that there may be more to AS than meets the eye-truly sick and offensive comments if there were any to be found in this thread IMO (or am I not allowed one of those on this forum?) Maybe it suits the agenda of some here not to address some of the issues being faced by some AS families at the moment but it certainly does not suit me or my children that much I do know. There are some truly arrogant attitudes surfacing in this thread and I definitely dont think they are all mine :)

Edited by pleasehelp

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I should also like to point out that the statement about our children 'not being ill' was not my own-it in fact came from an IPSEA worker FWIW and at the time I thought WTF as Im sure most of you did too, but on reflection I can see why it was said, I was just wondering if any of you here could see it too. I do apologise because I realise that it may be offensive to some-take it or leave it it's entirely up to you.

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Can we all take a deep breath.

 

I only joined recently and have to say that this thread is shocking me.

 

Pleasehelp-- all your posts in this thread were very obscure and I believe many have tried to understand what you are trying to communicate- I admit that I gave up after reading your reply (trying to explain); just before spectrummum response.

 

 

I still think that the way all this is communicated is completely wrong and not serving its purpose (which I don't get yet- I can make speculation but that may be unfair) but quite the opposite.

 

 

Since I joined I found this forum to be extremely helpful and offers great deal of practical support (hence the choice of my name)-- this is off mark and doesn't go with the spirit of the forum.

 

 

Please reconsider and if you want to discuss something try to explain it in a clearer way and be prepared that not all people will agree and many may have other opinions.

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Hi pragmatic and yes I know it's quite obscure but isnt that the nature of AS anyways? The reason I opened this thread was because I DO want to see what other peoples opinions are and they dont have to agree with mine-as Ive said its no problem really, as spectrummum has said she is at ease with the way she and her family are and that's cool-for the longest time I wasnt with either myself or my kids and it has been a very difficult journey but now we are and are a lot happier for it. Sometimes though it is very difficult to see the wood for the trees-I merely hope to shine a torch in the right direction and if that helps someone else out then Im a happy person-if not then Im still happy because it has certainly worked for us. Im sorry I have difficulty expressing myself in words-surely some of you understand that that is part of what AS is? Or not..... :S:S:S

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Well I don't see any contradiction here-- Most of us are trying to work out the best way that us and our children/partners and family be happy and get the best out of everyone. In many occasions you have to ignore a lot of comments and actions (this is not being ignorant of the problems- it is being wise). Many of us communicate with others to try to raise awareness about AS which I agree is very much unknown to many people and huge numbers of people have it but yet don't know.

 

Ideologically (which I believe it is good to have some sort of ideology but everyone is free to chose), I beleive that everything is happening for a purpose and I appreciate very much the way AS people including my son and husband think and see the world and I learn from them so much- I find it difficult sometimes but I know that they are very important for me and also for others. They can come up with things I never thought of because they look at the workd from a different angle and don't follow the sheep. However, in many situations other prople don't understand this or see it and it depends on the context and how I think I would gain from explaining I chose to explain or just IGNORE; ignoring actually can serve great purposes and you (or at least me) don't have to be in constant fight with the world I need peace then at one point I find the right arena and communicate and raise awarness.

 

 

No contradiction and I can see where you are coming from and appreciate your thought but I also bow to spectrummum for her choice and deciding to ignore (she need space and peace and calm for herself and family).

 

 

I hope I am not offending anyone-- we are the ones that should be patient and accommodating as much as we can.

 

Pragmatic

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Hurray we got there in the end :D :D :D You could not have summed it up better pragmatic and on that note I rest my case because this is exactly the point I am making :) We choose to ignore what is painful don't we and I think this is part of the enigmatic puzzle that is AS-is it any wonder sensitive souls tend to withdraw and display symptoms that we see in AS? Not really if you think about it is it. Sorry if I offended anyone initially with this thread-I promise you this wasnt my intention but I hope it helps :) btw it may interest you to knnow that following this philosophical approach we have seen ADHD symptoms in my oldest dissipate to nearly zero though Im still a little 'up' though I think its more to do with overdosing on caffeine to cope with my new baby than anything lol

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IM SORRY

PEOPLE CAN NOT VENT THERE SPLEANE THEN BLAME IT ON A DISORDER

IF YOU SAY THINGS YOU SAID THEM SIMPLE

IT HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ASPERGERS SYNDROME.

IF YOU READ WHAT YOU WROTE FROM START TO FINISH YOU WILL SEE WHERE THIS CONFLICT HAS COME FROM

AND YES I AM AT PEACE WITH MYSELF AND MINE BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE

I EITHER CRAWL INTO A HOBBIT HOLE AND GRINGE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE OR I STAND UP AND SHOUT WE ARE WHO WE ARE

PAST ATORCOTIES IN HISTORY ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR THE WAY PEOPLE THINK OR ACT

WAR AND DEATH ARE PART OF LIFE NO MATTER HOW IT COMES

AND OUR LIVES ARE WARM AND HAPPY

WE LAUGH MORE THAN WE CRY AND THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND MINE

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Pleasehelp, I may have taken you out of context slightly though reading your response to spectrumum after reading your discussion on altruism I found it rather absurd to witness you seeming to taking an intolerant, emotive stance and bringing up the holocaust to an argument.

 

There is a movement within autism rights (akin to disability rights) that is of an extremity i find counter-productive to people with aspergers and autism and ive possibly thrown you in the same boat by accident in how you came across.

 

When people feel a solidarity to their identity whether that is a disabled condition, ethnic identity or even street gangs it leads down a path of groups becoming empowered and that power being abused. Its something which the strongest adovcates of disability rights, social inclusion and the social model of disability sometimes forget as they pound away at their religious dogma like ideology to the point that communication becomes a one way street argument. A dictation not a debate.

 

When you speak of children being victimised for differance in their school envrionment and the comparison to nature there is certainly a point to be made. Have you heard of the argument that when we (European/Americain western civilization) go into Africa we like to bring images back to audiences of poor mal-nurished children and people still living in mud huts, that it is a highly entrenched form of racism? There is a sort of irony that when we go over there and impost a western education system onto these people (who dont even have light bulbs) we are blind to how utterly disdainful and disrespectful we are of their culture and their way of life.

There has become a fixation that modern european professionalism in medical, education (amongst other fields) is 100% correct with no other alternates and in all aspects of our society we feel the same wanting to impose it on the rest of humanity. One might argue when we belittle the tribe in mud huts living off the land that we fail to aks ourselves "what do we do that is better?" when we unsustainably consume resources and damage eco-systems beyond repair and we have such decadence in our lifestyle that the majority are obesse. Yet we go over there as some kind of enlightened moral guardians to save them from themselves

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hi

i have AS and it does not make any point at all to me let alone normal people

what are you trying to say that you want more awareness ,pity what

because i really dont get this at all

i have four on the spectrum but it does not matter i am at peace with it and dont have to prove anything at all

people take us has they find us or walk away simple

It is not about history anial instinct or anything else

things happen simple has that and you have a choice to deal with or bleet and blame other things

we are only put down or ridiculed if we let it bother us and if it does stil bother people then you need to look at who as the problem

All these things were going on years ago and people just get on with it

we must stop living in the past and what ever stereotype we are given

we are who we are and no amount of awareness or acceptance will ever change that

shell as adult with four on the spectrum

 

 

IM SORRY

PEOPLE CAN NOT VENT THERE SPLEANE THEN BLAME IT ON A DISORDER

IF YOU SAY THINGS YOU SAID THEM SIMPLE

IT HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ASPERGERS SYNDROME.

IF YOU READ WHAT YOU WROTE FROM START TO FINISH YOU WILL SEE WHERE THIS CONFLICT HAS COME FROM

AND YES I AM AT PEACE WITH MYSELF AND MINE BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE

I EITHER CRAWL INTO A HOBBIT HOLE AND GRINGE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE OR I STAND UP AND SHOUT WE ARE WHO WE ARE

PAST ATORCOTIES IN HISTORY ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR THE WAY PEOPLE THINK OR ACT

WAR AND DEATH ARE PART OF LIFE NO MATTER HOW IT COMES

AND OUR LIVES ARE WARM AND HAPPY

WE LAUGH MORE THAN WE CRY AND THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND MINE

 

Shell I think you may well have misinterpretted what I was saying when I responded to your original post tbh. I was not venting my spleen of anything remotely like that for that matter. The ONLY part of what you said I could really take issue with is the way in which you automatically jumped in assuming someone must obviously be looking for sympathy or wishing only to bleat which I do happen to think is a direct insult to the ethos of this forum which is after all supposed to be a place where people can come for support and information and yes to raise awareness-if you dont think it will make any difference then of course you are entitled to your view on that but I happen to think it will and I'll now explain why because I think it is so very important.

I grew up in an extremely politically unsettled poor place-people did not have a pot to p1ss in for want of a better expression. A political regime claiming they had all the answers performed a military coup on the government and imposed their own dictate on the entire populus. Men women and children were butchered in their thousands-slaughtered and culled like worthless animals because they would either not subscribe to the dictate or take up arms and join the militias. I watched as half my family were tortured, victimised and killed. Our animals were killed and our crops destroyed so we could no longer support ourselves. Women had their breasts hacked off with machetes so they could not feed their babies and the babies themselves had limbs hacked off also-all just to terrorise people into subscribing to a dicatorial absolutist view. I did not speak for 4 whole years when those of us left finally fled. Now in that context I would like to suggest that had some busybody do-gooder type ascribed diagnostic criteria to ANY of the people involved I can tell you for free I doubt a single damn one would not have been described as autistic either aggressors or victims (I hate that word but how else can you describe it). As it turns out the select few dictators at the very top were quite happily lining their own coffers and living very comfortable lives while yes you guessed it the rest of the people still starved and lived in yet worse turmoil as time went on. They abused their powers and adopted the 'Im alright Jack' attitude someone described in this thread, took on an elitist superior stance that they were somehow entitled as the place it would seem owed them a living. The country is now at peace it also has to be said and people are now unafraid to go to the polls to elect a democratically chosen government who it is hoped will not rule in such a corrupt way. People have learned to forgive one another and do not centre the entire ethos of the country on profit and greed of the few at the expense of the many but again if those in power decide to take advantage of their situation they could easily exploit their situation and those around them.

Soooo while I agree 100% shell that yes death is a part of life I do not agree that adopting a hugely callous selfish attitude (gee isnt that one of the diagnostic criteria after all?) and one where war and violence with no love or forgiveness for fellow humans is king is an acceptable one to take because it leads to only one place. As for altruism-I practice what I preach every day. I do not seek to profit from other folk as best as possible in the consumerist society we're in just now. I forgive others and try not to prejudge anyone at face value and support anyone who asks me for it the best way I can.

Shell you seem very angry for someone who claims to be happy and at peace as per your CAPS LOCK rant.

So at risk of being repetitive is there anyone else here who can reasonably agree that what they are seeing with their child is in any way related to trauma-Im only asking people to think about it and respond if they choose to.

Edited by pleasehelp

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Shell I think you may well have misinterpretted what I was saying when I responded to your original post tbh. I was not venting my spleen of anything remotely like that for that matter. The ONLY part of what you said I could really take issue with is the way in which you automatically jumped in assuming someone must obviously be looking for sympathy or wishing only to bleat which I do happen to think is a direct insult to the ethos of this forum which is after all supposed to be a place where people can come for support and information and yes to raise awareness-if you dont think it will make any difference then of course you are entitled to your view on that but I happen to think it will and I'll now explain why because I think it is so very important.

I grew up in an extremely politically unsettled poor place-people did not have a pot to p1ss in for want of a better expression. A political regime claiming they had all the answers performed a military coup on the government and imposed their own dictate on the entire populus. Men women and children were butchered in their thousands-slaughtered and culled like worthless animals because they would either not subscribe to the dictate or take up arms and join the militias. I watched as half my family were tortured, victimised and killed. Our animals were killed and our crops destroyed so we could no longer support ourselves. Women had their breasts hacked off with machetes so they could not feed their babies and the babies themselves had limbs hacked off also-all just to terrorise people into subscribing to a dicatorial absolutist view. I did not speak for 4 whole years when those of us left finally fled. Now in that context I would like to suggest that had some busybody do-gooder type ascribed diagnostic criteria to ANY of the people involved I can tell you for free I doubt a single damn one would not have been described as autistic either aggressors or victims (I hate that word but how else can you describe it). As it turns out the select few dictators at the very top were quite happily lining their own coffers and living very comfortable lives while yes you guessed it the rest of the people still starved and lived in yet worse turmoil as time went on. They abused their powers and adopted the 'Im alright Jack' attitude someone described in this thread, took on an elitist superior stance that they were somehow entitled as the place it would seem owed them a living. The country is now at peace it also has to be said and people are now unafraid to go to the polls to elect a democratically chosen government who it is hoped will not rule in such a corrupt way. People have learned to forgive one another and do not centre the entire ethos of the country on profit and greed of the few at the expense of the many but again if those in power decide to take advantage of their situation they could easily exploit their situation and those around them.

Soooo while I agree 100% shell that yes death is a part of life I do not agree that adopting a hugely callous selfish attitude (gee isnt that one of the diagnostic criteria after all?) and one where war and violence with no love or forgiveness for fellow humans is king is not an acceptable one to take because it leads to only one place. As for altruism-I practice what I preach every day. I do not seek to profit from other folk as best as possible in the consumerist society we're in just now. I forgive others and try not to prejudge anyone at face value and support anyone who asks me for it the best way I can.

Shell you seem very angry for someone who claims to be happy and at peace as per your CAPS LOCK rant.

So at risk of being repetitive is there anyone else here who can reasonably agree that what they are seeing with their child is in any way related to trauma-Im only asking people to think about it and respond if they choose to.

MY CAPS ARE ON MOST OF THE TIME I SEE WORDS BETTER THAT WAY

AND I WAS NOT RANTING IF I WAS RANTING I COULD HAVE BEEN A LOT RUDER

AND I HAVE GIVEN ADVICE ON THIS FORUM MANY MANY TIMES WITHOUT GETTING PICKED ON AT ALL

SO LETS JUST AGREE NOT TO SPEAK TO EACH OTHER AT ALL THAT IS PROBABLY BEST

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This is a really interesting topic and worth debating I think, but it's obviously aroused strong feelings and the discussion has been derailed somewhat by the personal comments which have been made.

 

So I'm closing this thread for now before further harm is done - hope everyone understands.

 

Kathryn

 

mod hat on

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