Can I be the first to mention..the C word!

[witsend]

Hi - yes I know it's only October and we've got halloween and bonfire night to come yet but.......am I the only one starting to stress re Christmas already?

Don't know how I'm gonna afford it (am pitifully skint) and can't see my fortunes improving between now and then.

My Dad announced last year that (for the first time ever) he would be spending it with a friend and not with me or my sister as he has always done! And guess what has just 'mentioned' that he will be doing same this year. My Mum died four years ago just before Christmas so I understand it's hard for him (and us still ) but it still hurts he chooses not to spend the time with his family who would like him here (esp grandchildren!!)

My partner and I split up some months ago so that's changed too. However we still see each other and he has just announced he wants to spend Christmas with me and the kids which is lovely but.................

I think my sister (divorced 2 kids) may be expecting to come to us (as she did last year) and problem is she refuses to speak to my ex (long story! ) she hasn't actually mentioned it yet so nor have I but..............

Christmas is supposed to be such a happy family time and I used to love it so it's horrible to be sat here wondering how to work it all out so no one is offended and so the kids get what they want!! When it would be nice to just be worrying wether a red and white or purple and silver theme would be best for the tree this year .

I know there are plenty of others with similar (and worse problems) so even feel bad about feeling bad about it

just wanted to get it off my chest really. Wonder if anyone has ever been brave enough to cancel it all together??

Luv Witsend.

[JsMum]

I think what you need to remember is christmas is for one day, that is it and then its all over, what I try and bring to J is that he has me on christmas day all to himself and he gets a lot of attention and I am there to help with undoing packaging, replacing batteries and doing the christmas dinner, its about family in the childrens eyes, so for them they are going to have mum and dad, thats all that will matter for them, as there is only a few of us here we also go away for christmas like centre parks and this year we are going sking, as J loves snow, and we want that feeling of what christmas is about which is snow, father christmas and the story of baby jesus, for us we concentrate on these as they divert us away from how it may look for larger families, I think your idea of having a theme is lovely too and get the kids to help you as J every year has full control over dressing the tree no matter how it may look to others it looks excellent to me and he is proud, I am not going to go mad this year with presants either, J wants drums, and a wii.

 

I would talk to your sister and see if there is any way that this year it is just you and the kids and there dad, I also think it is also nice that your dad has a friend to spend christmas with as well.

 

JsMum

Edited October 13, 2007 by JsMum

[Bagpuss]

Just do the best you can Witsend....as for your sis, if she's a guest in your home, she should at least be civil to your ex, if he is there of your choosing. It's always an anti climax anyway isn't it...and most peeps seem to spend Xmas stressed and trying to keep the peace. <'>

[Clare63]

Witsend,

Please take a deep breath and try not to be all things to all people. Make lists, make a plan and stick to it and most of all make the most of what you've got, usually the most simplest things are the best, there is less stress and fewer expectations..... listen to me ! I am stressing too, got no money or inspiration, don't know whats happening yet and worrying about all sorts, like why oh why didn't I buy sale Christmas cards and paper in January and why oh why didn't I put some money aside or start buying gifts early !!!!

Glad to see to JSM & BP have come along with more sensible suggestions, I will also be watching this thread for more advice and ideas.

If nothing else Witsend we can stress together.

Take care Hun.

 

Clare x x x

[paulathomson]

yes i completely understand about stressing about xmas... im stressing too. i have already panicked about whether i have enough money for the kids presents etc etc i have another son who is 11 and lives with his dad. his dad is a bully and tries to get money out of me left right and centre. i pay my csa to him and send my son anything he needs. his dad has no other children but i have two others (not his). so he cant comprehend that i have to spread my money between 3 children, not just one like him. he has said that my prioity should be my older son.

 

i only work part time and i pay for my son to fly to see us in school hols on top of other expenses. anyway.. to cut long story short.. i sent him money for a passport renewal 4 months ago.. and dad hasnt got it.. so i cannot fly my son to see us at xmas. i cant drive and also cannot do an 8 hour trip to get him by train because i have my ds who is asd and it is unfair to make him spend that amount of time on train, also unfair for my youngest child..

 

basically.. my older childs dad called me some nasty names and things on the phone 2 weeks ago and said that if i dont get him by train then i cant have my son at xmas...

 

yesterday he sent me email asking for �120 towards a trip to france. i refused... at first..then he used blackmail.. said im being unfair to my son..you get the drift..i cant really afford to pay this money out but today i have had to ''find'' it otherwise he will use it against me.

 

so xmas isnt a nice thought this year... without my son.. with little money.. and the prospect of his dad refusing me access in the future, know ing full well that i cant afford to go to court either..

 

happy xmas to me....

[Mumble]

<'> <'> You've had good advice from sensible people so I just thought I'd bounce :bounce: through (bouncing makes it far easier to get the fairy on the top of the tree).

 

We never had 'big' christmasses because my brother (ASD) couldn't cope with the change - which was fine by me. I think our images of happy families and moist turkey and beautifully wrapped prezzies and everyone being happy and singing carols round a glowing fire are slightly warped by the media - and the more we judge our standards against what is perceived to be the norm, the more we fail. And I think people do that social nicities thing I have a problem with when asked about their Christmas - they tell all the nice stuff repackaged (excuse the pun) to make it even better and as close as possible to what is expected. If people said what really happened, including arguments over the turkey (or it not fitting in the oven at all) broken toys, people not talking (bliss ), we might not always try to live up to such high expectations.

 

I always think that a lot of the expectations are fuelled by commercial reasons - and yet it's actually the far more simple things that matter - easy to say I know.

 

Wonder if anyone has ever been brave enough to cancel it all together??

Well yes - this made me laugh - my mum has cancelled Christmas this year and I'm not in the least bit bothered - she hasn't said I can't have Christmas and do it my way - I've been waiting 28 years for this opportunity and have all sorts of favvy stuff planned with my sis - including breaking both her knees at various outdoor ice rinks :whistle: (that's a joke btw) No pressure to conform to the 'expected' and I'm the happiest person around.

[Tally]

Witsend, I wouldn't blame you if you cancelled it altogether.

 

You could just do something low key though. You don't need a fancy meal, an 'ordinary' roast dinner is fine. You could make everyone a cake instead of buying expensive gifts.

[witsend]

Hi - sorry not replied before now - just wanted to say thanks for the replies. Still don't know what's going to happen with the ex/sister problem but have kind of come to the conclusion it's up to them, I will invite them both and then leave them to decide. I have a feeling my sister will not be happy and may decide to spend Xmas on her own which will make me feel bad but as it's always me who hosts Christmas and I'm happy to invite anyone who wants to come then I can't see what else I can do.

Have decided am not going to stress too much about the presents/money I will just buy what I can afford and hope it is appreciated!

The car has just broken down yesterday too so it may be an apple an orange and a bag of nuts for all!!

I've realised what would really spoil Xmas for the kids is me being stressed out and miserable so with that in mine I am now determined to sail gracefully towards a pared down, whoever comes comes type of Christmas and if it all goes pear shaped I shall just grab a bottle of sherry and sit here on the forum with whoever else is having a less than great time.

Cheers - Luv Witsend.

[Bell]

Looking forward to a quiet one this year.... hopefully. Stay at home just with the kids for the first time in 8 years. My parents and my wifes' parents are very different people so we've always visited her parents in the morning and then gone on to my parents in the afternoon. The kids get to see both sets of Grandparents and everybody is happy. The only downside is that the kids don't have much spare time on the day to play with their new stuff just with us. This year we're staying at home. Her parents will visit in the morning, my parents will drop in sometime in the afternoon or on Boxing Day.

 

Maybe you could do something similar? Depending on how far away they live and the travel time involved have your sister visit in the morning so your kids and her kids get to open a few presents together and see each other, then have your ex visit in the afternoon or on Boxing Day.

 

Whatever you do, make a decision sooner rather than later, stick to it and enjoy the day as best you can!

[Tylers-mum]

Hun, you have to do what is right for YOU and your kids. If that upsets others, then so be it. Maybe ask who the kids would prefer to spend Christmas, whether that be by yourselves or shared with their dad and/or your sis.

I agree that it is all for only one day but yet the hype leading to it can go on for months.

I usually have spent it with just me and my son but then popped over my sisters for a few hours after lunch. This year, we have moved out of the area (moved 3wks ago) so it will more than likely be just me and my son all day unless family decided to travel up to visit which is unlikely.

 

All I care about is my son, as long as he is happy on the day, then I'm happy.

 

I know that whatever you decide hun, it'll all turn out for the best. Ask the kids k, it's their dad and if your sis an't happy with your decision, then so be it. Your kids will be happy at the end of the dayif he is the choice they make.

[di30]

Hi Hun

 

Yes this is the time of year that I believe is very stressful.

 

Everyone on here has given brilliant advice and ideas .

 

Every year each side of the families expect us to spend the day with them, so what we do is stay at home, its the easiest thing to do, and the kids prefer it this way.

 

Just a thought, but perhaps your sister could come another day around xmas, like boxing day or so . Hopefully your sister will understand this and accept this with no problem, its just an idea really, but I don't know your sister so not sure how she would take it, . (sorry if this bit has already been suggested and missed it) lol.

There is only one of you and you can't be everywhere hun.

 

You can only do what you can do, and like us here, we have to cut back this year, we will only get what we can afford, and look out for the bargains (Sales).

 

Good luck hun - it will all work out in the end, and we are all here for you okay.

 

Luv Di

xxxx

[jim]

CHRISTMAS FRUIT CAKE RECIPE

 

Ingredients:

 

1 cup water

2 cups of dried fruit

1 cup brown sugar

1 cup sugar

1 tsp salt

8 oz nuts

4 large eggs

tsp baking powder

juice of 1 lemon

1 bottle of whisky

 

Method:

 

Sample the whisky to check quality. Take a large bowl.

Check the whisky again to be sure its of the highest quality, pour one level cup and drink.

 

Repeat

 

Turn on the electric mixer, beat one cup of butter in a large fluffy bowl.

Add one tsp sugar and beat again. Make sure whisky is still ok.

 

Cry another tup. Turn off the mixerer.

Break two eggs and add to the bowl and chuck in the dried fruit.

Mix on the turner.

If the fried druit gets stuck in the beaterers, pry it loose with a drewscriver.

Sample the whisky for tonsisticity.

 

Next sift two cups of salt. Or something. Who cares? Check the whisky.

Now sift the lemon juice and strain your nuts.

Add one table. Spoon. Of sugar or something. Whatever you can find.

 

Grease the oven. Turn the cake tin to 350 degrees.

Don't forget to beat the turner. Throw the bowl out the window,

check the whisky again and go to bed.

 

 

Happy Christmas!!

[bid]

Excellent!

 

Bid

[Mumble]

That's fantastic Jim!!

 

Now do you have any similar recipe where the main ingredient is a bottle of white wine? I'm really not partial to whisky

[annie]

 

That's brilliant Jim

[witsend]

Thank you al of you - you always manage to cheer me up!

The 'family' dynamics here are not very straightforward though which just complicates things. First my sister is a lovely person and we very rarely fall out. When I first posted I thought she would have her boys with ther for Christmas but have since realised they will actually be going to her ex husbands this year which in turn means she will be on her own.

My sister has no time for my ex because she knows how he has upset me in the past and whilst she knows the kids and I still see him she would not choose to be around him. She hasn't said anything about Christmas yet but I imagine she thinks I will be inviting her, and if I don't I think she will be more hurt rather than offended, if you see what I mean.

Secondly the ex is not the childrens father although the little one does regard him as such. The kids both like the ex and my sister and they are unaware of any bad feeling, so I couldn't ask them to choose who comes.

Also ( bear with me - told you it was complicated!) the ex has some mental health probs (some of you may recall me posting re this when we split up earlier this year) which means that when he's in a good mood he is lovely and great fun to have around, but his moods fluctuate quite rapidly and when he's not in a good mood he can be horrid! He is now acceptin some help with all this but it's still early days. He just presumed he would be coming for Xmas and will be hugely offended if he doesn't!

Lastly I saw ex today and I was talking about Xmas and about how I would have to careful with spending this year due to being so skint he said he was skint too and presumed I would be buying the kids presents and putting on them that they are from both of us!! As he can't afford to buy any!!

Now is it just me or is this a blooming liberty! The little money I have I have worked hard for and it doesn't feel fair or right that I should be expected to do this does it??

Anyway in short he was massively offended when I said I was not intending doing this said I was 'tight' and a few other things to boot and walked out!

So there we go - just felt I had to fill in a bit of the background as it's so complex.

Thanks if you've read this far - any further advice appreciated.

Luv Witsend.

Still don't know what to do

[di30]

Hi Witsend.

 

Plenty of <'> <'> <'> for you.

 

You have a difficult decision to make from what I can make out, so of course you don't want to hurt anyone.

 

I was just thinking..............easier said than done I suppose, but perhaps you can have a word with your sister, explain your situation, and say "as its only christmas once a year, you don't want to hurt anyone, and do feel rather awkward about this, but would love to have her there, but for your kids sakes your kids would love to have your ex to be there too", also explain that you understand her feelings towards your ex and you really appreciate her for being such a caring and supportive sister, and love her to bits, but feel you will get through this day, especially for your kids, you never know this could break the ice with a bit of luck, and you may be surprised by this but it does happen.

Like I said though I don't know your sister and this may not be a good idea.........but maybe worth thinking about, also tell your sister your ex is trying his best to put things right as much as possible.

 

The only other thing is, depends if your sister stays for the full day or not, is invite your sister in the day and your ex in the evening, I cannot think of any other way you can deal with this hun, but as you said its not a thing you can ask the kids to decide as they are not aware of the bad feeling.

Does your ex have any family to go to on xmas day ? If so, and he is aware of your sister coming along, would he mind if he spent boxing day with you all instead ?

You can't keep everyone happy hun, but hopefully this will work out for you all in the end.

Maybe have a word with your sister first and see what she says, but tell her she is very welcome and you would love her to be there, at least if you do this soon you will have some time to think about it.

 

Good luck hun, keep us posted and wish you all the very best, hope it works out whatever you decide to do.

 

Luv Di xxxx

[jim]

That's fantastic Jim!!

 

Now do you have any similar recipe where the main ingredient is a bottle of white wine? I'm really not partial to whisky

 

Couldnt found one, but I found this:

 

Mom?s Special Brownie Recipe

 

Remove teddy bear from oven and preheat oven to 375.

 

Melt 1 cup margarine in saucepan. Remove teddy bear

from oven and tell Jr., ?No, no.?

 

Add margarine to 2 cups sugar. Take shortening can

away from Jr. and clean cupboards.

 

Measure 1/3 cup cocoa. Take shortening can away from

Jr. again and bathe cat. Apply antiseptic and bandages

to scratches sustained while removing shortening from

cat?s tail.

 

Assemble 4 eggs, 2 tsp. vanilla, and 1-1/2 cups

sifted flour. Take smoldering teddy bear from oven and

open all doors and windows for ventilation. Take

telephone away from Billy and assure party on the line

the call was a mistake. Call operator and attempt to

have direct dialed call removed from bill.

 

Measure 1 tsp. salt, � cup nuts and beat all

ingredients well. Let cat out of refrigerator. Pour

mixture into well-greased 9�13-inch pan.

 

Bake 25 minutes. Rescue cat and take razor away from

Billy. Explain to kids that you have no idea if shaved

cats will sunburn. Throw cat outside while there?s

still time and he?s still able to run away.

 

FROSTING Mix the following in saucepan: 1 cup sugar,

1 oz unsweetened chocolate, 1/4 cup margarine Take the

darn teddy bear out of the broiler and throw it away

? far away. Answer the door and meekly explain to

nice policeman that you didn?t know Jr. had slipped

out of the house and was heading down the street. Put

Jr. in playpen.

 

Add 1/3 cup milk, dash of salt, and boil, stirring

constantly for 2 minutes. Answer door and apologize to

neighbor for Billy having stuck a garden hose in man?s

front door mail slot. Promise to pay for ruined

carpet.

 

Remove burned brownies from oven. Collapse

and call the baker for delivery.

[Sallya]

Oh, don't talk about Christmas yet....sticking my fingers in my ears....la....la....la....la......la

[pearl]

OK I can't resist...

 

WHATS THE RECIPE TODAY, JIM?

[pearl]

Well I'm feeling quite smug, have just ordered all mr pearls obscure music & JP's DVDs from the Big River place so I can go to bed now with a clear conscience. I have Officially Started my Christmas shopping!

[Neil Young]

Have a look here...

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1065&a=8460

[pearl]

Neil

I remember when a mutual friend of ours used to go a long walk with son on Christmas Day followed by mushroom soup!

 

We have eaten out the last few years at mum's request (is my cooking that bad?) & because its one of JPs rules that he has to eat everything on his plate, was excruciating waiting for him to finish as they wouldnt serve pud til everyone had finished. I've put my foot down this year & I'm cooking at home.

[bid]

I've done over half my Christmas shopping!

 

Bid (hides )

[Bagpuss]

Bid

 

I've got 3/4 of the girlies things, and all the family & friends pressies.....nowt for DS, who says he wants money. He's 14 now, unsure, does anyone else just give their kiddies the money they would of spent? It's not that he's expecting a large amount, but he says he'd rather just have whatever we plan spending, and buying things as and when he sees something. DH thinks it's ok, and has suggested we buy him some little bits and bobs, to unwrap along with the pressies he'll get from family and friends.

 

Got the last of my Christmas cards today, chocs for the tree, and advent calendars.....and bought all my wrapping paper and tags in the sales in January.

 

 

*goes to hide with Bid*

Edited October 24, 2007 by Bagpuss

[bid]

...does anyone else just give their kiddies the money they would of spent?

 

One year Auriel said he only wanted money from everyone (think he was saving up for his pootie). Anyway, come the day he didn't say anything, but I saw his face when everyone else had a pile of pressies to unwrap, and he just had envelopes...luckily my mum and his godfather had both given him a little pressie, too!

 

I have just gone through my Christmas deccies, and found a load of cards left over from previous years (which will go against the grain a bit, 'cos I laike to have matching/themed cards and wrapping paper , but needs must with this new house! ).

 

My one brill get-ahead tip that psychologically makes you feel uber-in-control: get bits for stockings throughout the year, and make sure you've got all of it well in time

 

BUT, last year for a stocking for Auriel now he's 18!!

 

I lurve Crimbo, and best of all for the first time in 12 years we are going to someone else for the big day, so no cooking

 

Bid

 

And to Baggy for being this year's Most Hated Best Organised Mum!

[Bagpuss]

 

I blame my love of lists Bid

[smiley]

Jim

 

I have done absolutely nuffink for crimbo! Nope, tell a lie. I did buy crimbo cards at the NAS conference when i was feeling very angelic!

 

For once i find myself wishing M would return to his 'Red Present' request when asked what he wants for christmas, made my life much easier - i could buy him any tat and as long as it was wrapped in red............. Happy bunnies all round.

 

His obsession is Transformers - and has been for the past four years. Only this year, everyone else likes it too because the movie came out - makes the toys double in price and become impossible to get hold of

 

<'> I do sympathise with those having a family-related-nightmare <'> .

Couple of years ago i had everyone wanting a piece of me and M - and the stropping and emotional blackmail that came with it from all angles .

After months of stressing - i told the lot to b*gger-off and had the best crimbo with my little 'un .

Now - i make sure whatever's going on - it's what we want and don't feel obliged to do. Bit tough on all the 'stroppers' - but works for us.

[pearl]

Bid

 

I've got 3/4 of the girlies things, and all the family & friends pressies.....nowt for DS, who says he wants money. He's 14 now, unsure, does anyone else just give their kiddies the money they would of spent? It's not that he's expecting a large amount, but he says he'd rather just have whatever we plan spending, and buying things as and when he sees something. DH thinks it's ok, and has suggested we buy him some little bits and bobs, to unwrap along with the pressies he'll get from family and friends.

 

Got the last of my Christmas cards today, chocs for the tree, and advent calendars.....and bought all my wrapping paper and tags in the sales in January.

*goes to hide with Bid*

 

Shurrup you two, feeling depressed now.

I wish I was a man. They just turn up on the day, dont they?

[brooke]

i have done quite a bit of shopping mainly cos i cant afford it all in one go !! i still have quite a bit left to do though. My ds is nearly 7 and this year has been asking how will santa fit down our chimney I just said magic, i dread it when he finds out he isnt real

[Mumble]

i dread it when he finds out he isnt real

What do you mean?

[Bagpuss]

Shurrup you two, feeling depressed now.

I wish I was a man. They just turn up on the day, dont they?

 

My DH is as surprised as the kiddies when they open their pressies

[Neil Young]

Neil

I remember when a mutual friend of ours used to go a long walk with son on Christmas Day followed by mushroom soup!

 

We have eaten out the last few years at mum's request (is my cooking that bad?) & because its one of JPs rules that he has to eat everything on his plate, was excruciating waiting for him to finish as they wouldnt serve pud til everyone had finished. I've put my foot down this year & I'm cooking at home.

 

 

Indeed I do!

 

So its your place for Christmas then?

[pearl]

My DH is as surprised as the kiddies when they open their pressies

 

Mr pearl is surprised when I open my present from him!

[pearl]

Indeed I do!

 

So its your place for Christmas then?

 

Liberty Hall, here ..... just bring some fondant fancies.

[witsend]

Right you lot!! You have now plunged me futher into Xmas stress with all this being mega organised and I've nearly done all my shopping' caper!! What with all this who to invite saga going on in my head I have sort of forgotten about buying presents, dressing a tree, cooking an enourmous meal etc etc ! It's all become clear now maybe I've subconciously focused on the family thing in order to avoid the nightmare of all the other things??!!

I am planning to do a lot of ordering get it delivered to Dads type shopping this year. Am going to scour the fields opposite me for cheap - actually make that FREE! - decorations (holly, twigs - nice sprayed silver- leaves, grass whatever!! ). I have already started adding little luxuries to my weekly shop (well after eights and that kind of thing) to store away for the big day. I have seen some fab big black and white luxury crackers at a factory shop nearby for half price, so I'll be going back for them. So despite myself I am actually kind of starting to look forward to it a wee bit now.

As for the who's coming.............well........have spoken to sister about it all and was just honest with her and she was really lovely about it, said she would like to come if ex isn't but understands if I invite ex and there will be no bad feeling about it all on her part. The ex himself is still not speaking to me after the 'put my name on the presents you've paid for' debacle (see earlier post). Also when I spoke to him about it all and suggested he come for Xmas day and my sister could come for Boxing Day he said and I quote: "Well, what am I going to do on boxing day then?" !!

So have been thinking, who's the nicer person here? Who actually cares wether the kids and I have a nice day and who is just thinking about themselves?

So as it stands I am now thinking I will have sis over for Xmas day. And if ex wants to come boxing day fine and if that's not good enough well then that's up to him. He does have family to go to, he just can't be bothered and my sister would otherwise be totally on her own once the kids have gone to their Dads.

I'm a but apprehensive because telling this to the ex will start WW3 but I will just have to take cover under the stairs and emerge to make Jims Christmas cake recipe when the dust settles eh?

Luv Witsend.

[Caroline-]

Ooooh i love Christmas!!! Hayden loves all the glitter & lights & of course the presents! I have to leave any Chrimbo shopping right till the last minute & my parents normally have him Christmas eve till about 10 just so i can wrap all the presents up in peace, then give them to next door to look after, wait for sir to eventually go to bed then leave them out under the tree

[smiley]

So have been thinking, who's the nicer person here? Who actually cares wether the kids and I have a nice day and who is just thinking about themselves?

 

<'> Exactly!

 

Oh, and freeby crimbo bits - i lurve making crimbo decorations My house looks like a paper chain bomb's gone off once we've finished! And making ickle crimbo table decorations out of holly.. and our tree looking like something the entire cast of Blue Peter have thrown together after the christmas party... .....

 

Love it

[mandyque]

Good luck wit hthe sister/ex juggling If you sister is going to stay for 2 days then how about daddy takes the kids out boxing day, then he'll have plenty to do and it gives you the chance of a breather and time with your sis. If money is tight then tell your sister and ex and ask if they could contribute to food and drink for the big day, I'm sure they wouldn't mind (if they are reasonable and not like my ex!) perhaps bringing some meat or veg or puddings or something and a nice bottle or two

 

As for presents, how about a book of vouchers, you could promise your time and the recipient could 'cash' them in when they need to. Stuff like errmm babysitting services, walking the dog, shopping, anything you like really.

[DaisyProudfoot]

Christmas shopping - not started yet - but I have asked the kids to write out their lists. They've been told their budgets and have to work within them so no ultra expensive pressies unless shared

 

Christmas day was getting very enjoyable as all my kids are that much older and chill out at Christmas but with the arrival of my two wee nephews living with us it's back to massive pressies for the littleuns (about half a million) from all the relatives from their mother's side of the family and no space for us.

 

The nephews parents now spend Christmas day with us so they can have that "quality time" with their children which isn't so bad because it means we can leave them to keep the kids occupied while we concentrate on Christmas dinner. Unfortunately they were granted one day's unsupervised access each week this year so I'm not looking forward to their plans for Christmas.