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Viper

Agression and confrontation.

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Sorry I've not posted for a while then come back with a problem. My puter has been very touchy and finally went caput the other day, really need a new one but patched this one up for now.

 

 

Anyway down to my reason for posting.

 

Superman has always been aggresive and defiant. But it's getting worse. Yesterday he threw a golf ball at me because his game froze. Previously he threw a dinner knife at my DS and threatened the other one with scissors.

 

This is constant now, anything we tell him to stop doing he will retaliate violently. It doesn't matter how we word it, even if we use a calm tone he will still fly off the handle. Today he started trying to punch DS3 because she asked him to not leave his car in the way as someome might break it or hurt themselves. I had to block him away from her. He also spits at us and most annoying of all stands up to us when he starts to get aggresive.

 

What I mean by that is if we tell him that he shouldn't hit he will turn on myself and his father. I find that so infuriating. He will say "if you don't shut up and leave me alone I will punch you in the face/throw this at you" etc. and he does just as he threatens. Today he threw a PS3 controler at DS3 and when DH told him off, he threatened to do the same to DH and then threw a hairbrush at him. And the look in his eyes, he has the look of real hatred and total distain. He looks us straight in the eye too and reminds me of some yob on the street picking a fight with another yob.

 

Superman is only 7 and I am getting increasingly worried that as he gets older these incidents will be more of a problem. I can imagine that he will be throwing things that can do a lot of damage and he will be a better shot. Also the punching will get harder even though he bruises me as it is.

 

It seems he is constantly on the edge of boiling point and the slightest thing can tip him over. Then literally 2 minutes later he is acting as if nothing happened, almost like a split personality. It's like living with a ticking bomb.

 

We are waiting to see a lady at CAMHS over this issue but have been waiting since last June, so god knows how much longer it will be.

 

I have no idea how to handle this. If it is just me at home and he starts I deflect any blows/flying objects and ignore him but if he is attacking one of my DDs I have to step in, even though they are big enough to defend themselves I can't let him hurt them or let them hurt him. My AS dd is very affected by it and will lash out at him. Her being 17 and big built, it could be disasterous.

 

Do any of you have similar behaviour and if so how do you deal with it?

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>:D<<'> >:D<<'> >:D<<'> How awful for you all. I think you really need to go to your GP or ring CAMHS and tell them again how desperate your situation is, they have to do something sooner than June. Your son is a real danger to himself and others and therefore should be seen as a priority. Good luck with it all. >:D<<'> >:D<<'> >:D<<'>

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im not much help with advice

but my 6 year old is very much like this......

after a awful weekend of it all again -today i have now took his nintendo of him /banned tv-plugged cableout of back/took his fav toy of him/no pc time................this time im going stick at it ...........ive told him he wont be getting anything back for a week at least till i see better behaviour towards myself and his brother.

 

im planning on getting him out of the house more you see .............and those thinngs above stop us doing it .

 

before ive felt guilty about doing those things .....but to me it seems the only way i can implement some calm in the house -and if he wants them back he will have to work damn hard for it .............

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Hi Viper :)

 

Hope you don't mind me asking, but to get a clearer picture, what consequences does your DS have when he behaves like this?

 

Bid

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This is the thing Bid I really don't know what to do, we've tried time out but I have to physically move him, kicking and punching me the whole time and he shouts abuse the whole time he is there, and it makes no difference when his time is up. He is still angry and it prolongs the whole behavior.. And we have removed favourite toys/ activities but he just doesn't care about anything. I have tried rewards for good behoviour, marbles in a jar if I catch him being good and removal of one if he is aggresive. Nothing has any effect. He just says "I really don't care" In that arrogant yob tone. He even threw the marbles at me.

 

We even set up a sensory room for him (Well it's the cupboard under the stairs, a very big one though) a place he can go when he feels stressed etc but he doesn't use it. He likes it but never goes in there.

 

I just don't know which way is up anymore.

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Hi Viper :)

 

We went through similar and I know how horrible it is :( , I used take away a favourite toy and in the end gave in because everything used to escalate. I know it's easier said than done, but the only thing that worked was to stay strong and be really consistant (with us it seemed like it took forever). It wore me down because at times it felt as though we wasn't getting anywhere, but eventually we got there in the end.

 

Annie xx

>:D<<'>

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Oh viper,

i really feel for you just now, there have been a few similar threads lately, so you are not alone in this so please take care and remember this is not your fault.

My daughter was really hard to handle at this age too, but it has got easier now (she is 11)

I really wasn't very good at the idea of punishing her for this kind of behaviour, but now i dont see it as punishment, more of teaching her right fom wrong.

My daughter used to say to me that i was a pushover and she did not care what i would do and the rampages would last days.I always felt she could not help it and would always find a reason for it.

Now though i really dont tolerate any aggression or violence, i have removed toys kept her from things refused computer, the list goes on but what really changed was my attitude, i had to get tough and let her know this was not something i would accept.

It took a long time and occassionally we have a slip up but now it is managed pretty quickly.

I now look back at the difficult times and wonder if they were really as bad as i thought, but the minute i see her behaving in a familiar way it soon reminds me of how horrible it was.

My daughter now finds it easier to tell me how she is feeling, but she really struggles to cry so sometimes i think this is the reason for when her behaviour is difficult now.

I think what annie has said is the way to go stay strong and be consistant. When they are losing control they need us to keep the boundaries in place.

take care

nicola

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The thing with 'reward/motivation' systems is that you have to find something that the child really wants. So marbles, probably not such a great motivator! ;)

 

First of all, you need to focus on just one behaviour that you want to change, i.e. 'no hitting'. The idea of just 'being good' is too nebulous for our kids.

 

So, you have your target behaviour, and your 'currency' (when my son was little, this started off as little Warhammer figures that came in large blister packs, as he got older it became computer time: both these motivators were the only things he really cared about at the time).

 

Then, make a visual timetable of the week, dividing the day into sections. How many depends on your child. If the behaviour is really difficult, divide the day into more, shorter sections. The system is to reward your DS for not doing the behaviour for just one section of the day to start with. There is no way you can realistically expect our kids to manage a whole day in one go at this stage. Your DS then gets the reward at the end of that section: the reward needs to be immediate.

 

Once he is consistently managing one section of the day without the behaviour, you increase the target to two sections for the reward, and so on until he can manage a whole day. Then you can divide the day into less sections, so he is managing his behaviour for longer.

 

Eventually you can aim for a whole day without the behaviour, but you need to make sure he is consistently managing one level before you go up to the next.

 

The key to succeeding with this kind of behavioiural therapy is to be absolutely consistent and firm. It can also take a very long time, but you have to hang in there and plod on. We did it for about 4 years intensively with my DS when he was little, then a modified version when he was older.

 

Whatever additional needs our kids may have, they can't be allowed to think that aggressive behaviour is ever accepotable.

 

I work with children, many of whom have profound additional needs far more severe than probably the majority of our kids on here, but they still have consequences for aggressive behaviour appropriate to their level of understanding. To do anything else actually disables them more in the long run.

 

Sorry for the essay, and hope some of this helps!! :lol:

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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Guest Lya of the Nox

yup what bid says lol :notworthy: :notworthy:

 

but basically u find an obsession, or what would hurt the most to loose and USE it

 

and maybe leave telling him to one person in the house

maybe he feels that all are having a pop at him??

x

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Thanks Bid that is a great help. I will give it a try. is it best to start on the most explosive part of the day ie when DD3 gets home from school. Or make it easier?

 

Oh, the marble thing was a reward system where he got treats when he reached a certain amount, say 20 marbles for a 49p car etc. I have a similar sytem going now with coins and a three medals for doing his home school tasks. Bronze, silver and gold and he gets money for the first 2 and then a reward of a toy up to �5 when he gets his gold medal, he has to get 4 coins for bronze, 8 for silver and 12 for gold.

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Bid while I totally agree in almost all of your post, but working with children and living with a child in a 24-7 bubble is totally different with what ever level or degree that it is, its incredibly difficult to stay so focused and consitant, while I try 110 per cent the constant blows and aggresive challenging behaviour wares you down, when J was in a unit the staff where focused, consistant, and instantly rewarded good behaviour but this was a team of people, all supporting each other, if something got to them then an another one could step in, J needs more than two people to now hold him when he is in the frame of mind to hurt, me alone this is not an option, he can become challenging even when he is recieving rewards and attention, he is very demanding.

 

With J there is no learning from consequences, no remorse after its all over and done with, no recollection of his actions, its so hard to take a child who is displaying inapropriate behaviour, that hurts and can cause damage, its certainly not something I am encouraging, its a part of his make up that brings a constant array of impulsive actions, that dont have any thought of at the time, sometimes for J its a buzz, a high, to get such an intence reaction from people, there face and whole body language changes and so J goes all the way to get this, is draining, exhausting, I wish I worked with kids like J I know I would do such a better job, I would have energy, ideas, creative expression, but in it as Js Mother, I am demolerised and sometimes totally defeated and he wins.

 

At 10 years old thats quite a concern but when your in it all the time its harder but I do already praise for his good behaviour.

 

JsMum

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Viper: you need to be targetting the behaviour during all the sections of the day, but at first he only has to manage one section to get the reward at the end of that section of the day...if he manages it for more than one section, all to the good, and a reward for each section where he has controlled his behaviour.

 

The main thing is that you are not asking him to manage his behaviour for a whole day, which is far too long a time to begin with. When we started, we divided the day into 4 sections, then as he consistently improved, it was 3, then 2. But you can divide the day into as small sections as you feel he needs to be able to achieve his target.

 

What you are doing is presenting him with a timescale within which he has to manage his behaviour that is going to be achievable for him so that he gets his reward and you start a positive cycle with him.

 

J'sMum: I do know how hard it is to live with aggressive, challenging behaviour. At one point, SS had both my DD's under an on-going risk assessment because of my DS's aggressive behaviour. And I know how much easier it is in a professional capacity, because we work as a team, etc. By talking about my work, I was trying to say that if we have expectations of acceptable behaviour from even our most severely disabled kids, with consequences for their actions, then we should approach our kids with the same empowering expectations.

 

BUT, as parents we can either give up and say it's part of their nature, their disability, etc, or we can plod on and have expectations that our child's behaviour can be different. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the truth. I said in my post that we had to do this kind of behaviour plan for years with my DS, gradually tackling one behaviour at a time and tweaking things as he got older. Not for one minute am I saying that we did it perfectly, but we refused to give up, and when things went wrong we sat down and started again because we had got lax or inconsistent, etc.

 

I also think that sometimes a child needs levels of support that are only possible within a specialist or even a 24 hour curriculum placement, because it is impossible to provide for that level of support within a family. We reached that situation with my DS and he benefitted hugely from going to residesi, but I also think that he would never have made the progress he has if we hadn't plodded away with this type of behavioural therapy when he was little.

 

Bid

Edited by bid

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sometimes for J its a buzz, a high, to get such an intence reaction from people, there face and whole body language changes and so J goes all the way to get this,

 

But that tells you that the way people are reacting to your DS is not helping his behavioural difficulties.

 

As much as possible the emotion needs to be removed from the situation, so that he doesn't get that buzz.

 

Bid :)

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Guest Lya of the Nox

we used to have a more of behaviour thing

where every time she did something good on a list then she got points

it meant for instance if she cleaned her teach she got points, but if she kicked off bout packing bag she didn't

the theory being that even on a bad day she could earn, and still it could be positive

at the end of the week their were choices for prizes, often not material things eg: choice of dvd from library or tv show.

the plan works if you downsize everything, so that prizes and extras dont exist

once you have done t his you can work on the less of behaviour, where you take out unwanted behaviour, but we never ever got that far.

do you and him get a break at all from each other, cos that wont help

i too lived with extreme violence, so am telling this from something that did work

x

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Jsmum, I noticed on your signature that J has a DX of ODD. Superman also has the same DX as well as others. I think that is the real problem with our boys. Any reaction from us they thrive on. But when a knife whistles past your DDs ear it's hard not to show a reaction and your first instinct is to jump up with a look of horror. When you try to punish the behaviour they get, as you say, a buzz out of it and chalenge your authority more to try and escalate the rection.

 

It's not easy to deal with but I feel if I don't do something soon he will be old enough to realy hurt me and then I will be useless to try and control him.

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we used to have a more of behaviour thing

where every time she did something good on a list then she got points

it meant for instance if she cleaned her teach she got points, but if she kicked off bout packing bag she didn't

the theory being that even on a bad day she could earn, and still it could be positive

at the end of the week their were choices for prizes, often not material things eg: choice of dvd from library or tv show.

the plan works if you downsize everything, so that prizes and extras dont exist

once you have done t his you can work on the less of behaviour, where you take out unwanted behaviour, but we never ever got that far.

do you and him get a break at all from each other, cos that wont help

i too lived with extreme violence, so am telling this from something that did work

x

 

I do get a break from him yes. My DH takes him to golf at least 3 times a week. It's not usually me he attacks, it's my youngest 2 DDs, he turns on me when I try to intervene.

 

One of the flash points that springs to mind is when he wants to play a board game. If we are busy or it's too late in the day or simply don't fancy playing he will explode. He say's "if you don't play I will punch you in the face," he gets right up close with his fist. He gets very angry with us until he eventually loses it and lashes out. This is not over a long period, it is all over in a flash and I am still trying to tell him why I don't want to play. At these times there is no talking to him, he just shouts over you and gets more and more angry until flashpoint.

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Guest Lya of the Nox

do you timetable your day?

cos if you do then find a bit for board games

and if you dont then try it

x

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I semi agree with lya about factoring in time for board games, with the proviso that you only play them on days when he DOESN'T say things like this...

 

"if you don't play I will punch you in the face," .

 

Days he did speak like that would be spent in his bedroom, or if he chose to do so, the wreckage of his bedroom. Any 'wreckage' would not be replaced, no matter how much he missed/regretted it after the event.

 

L&P

 

BD

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But that tells you that the way people are reacting to your DS is not helping his behavioural difficulties.

 

As much as possible the emotion needs to be removed from the situation, so that he doesn't get that buzz.

 

Bid :)

 

 

I personally do keep the reactions to a minimum with his behaviour but when he has hurt me or broke a really treasured item it kind of hurts, both emotionally and physically, I really do only ever cry, get upset when its gone as far as I can humanly go, when other people react its usually surprise or their own fear so it is a little difficult to deal with others as I am aware that all it does is reinforce J behaviour.

 

However you have brough to my attention the need to look at some work around reactions, feelings, helping J understand how it is for the person recieving the hurt, so I will have a look throw some feelings, sad, angry, and what that feels like, we have looked at anger management but I thought he understood what sad is and what happy is after going throw them when he was 6,7 when he did a lot more hitting other children.

 

JsMum

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I think the issues with ODD are very draining and demanding so yes eliments of ODD are going to be a real obsticle to cross however I have to agree that even I dont tolerate or except violent behaviour, so its still something that needs dealing with, which I am still doing and though he is not as bad as when he was younger, he is now older and the damage more severe, When he was younger that was why he did go on methlephenadate (ritalin) and though his ADHD/ODD was much better contolled other development got worse and out weighed the positives and stopped meds, in the mean time I have sought support from Contact A Family who have a booklet on Challenging behaviour inside gives you key areas to look out before a Trigger, you post already gives clear clues to when this may be, when hungry, when he can not have attention, when he has to share, and play without support.

 

Contact A family gave me loads of information on ODD, Conduct Disorder, ADHD and Sensory Intregration Dysfunction, many of Js difficulties are sensory, and the need for control and power, if I have got upset then he feels powerful knowing that he was able to do that to me, he gets an array of stimulation and sensory feedback.

 

I put in place a lot of Activity Games in the home so Punch bag, pads, mini trampoline inside, large trampoline outside, A sensory Shed, music equiptment, lights of all kinds of designs, EYE TOY sports, Cd music, and relaxation techneques when he is really getting wond up, breathing in and out, properly, we looked at Anger, studied together using the net, bought books that are working booklets some with more information on websites, I bought a few books too looking at my own reactions and one book is brilliant in this called beating anger mike fisher.

 

We do have visual time tables, time tracker for timed tasks as J doesnt have time awareness.

 

I know that the NHS do have some spersific courses for familys for ODD children, I think its the Dinosour school, using puppets to help children understand the consequences of our actions, placing J in his room, he would be there all day if it where to give him a consequence because he would of forgotten why he was there in the first place, also bedroom is already a very stressful place for bedtime, not somewhere I would choose to place him for a consequence, it was recognised in a parent programme that time out wasnt effective for J and it wasnt used and we use a ban, take away something like his XBOX or sky tv.

 

Again I too am questioning medications, and the possibilty of special school because I know I cant deal with this on my own.

 

 

I understand that you also need to protect your other children when he is physically hurting them and so you do have to do something, I would ring cahms up again on Monday and explain you are really concerned about your sons aggression, visit his GP and also express your concerns too.

 

JsMum

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Hi Viper

 

I really do empathise with your situation - my son's aggression really started to get out of control at 7. I think this is an age when many children with ASD have increased behavioural problems. Bid has given you tremendous advice and I endorse every word of it - but I also think it's well worth emphasising the causes.

 

The aggression can be a response to stress - and 7 is an age when children are increasingly exposed to demands at school from teachers and from their peer group. My son became more aware of the differences between himself and other children, and found that he could not confrom to the demands of schooling and the exposure to 'real life' as easily as other children. These pressures built up, and he simply didn't have a way to express his difficulties or to cope with them.

 

Of course he needed to learn and understand boundaries, but it always helped to understand why he behaved so badly, and that sometimes punishment was not appropriate. If he lost control, was this because he was doing something naughty, or because he was overwhelmed with feelings he didn't have the means to control or deal with? If it was the second, then why would I punish him, and what did it do to him when he was punished?

 

BTW I really don't recommend 'time out' for a child with ASD (neither does my son's psychiatrist) - it can be like a red rag to a bull.

 

Over the years we've learned to focus our efforts on reducing the situations where he feels stress, anticipating danger points, and controlling his life and experiences to enable him gradually to learn how to control himself. Like you, he had a safe space which he wouldn't use. Slowly he has learned how to remove himself to his safe space, and to regain control (not wothout a lot of damage to the said safe space!). It's taken 5 years and greater maturity (and medication as well), and a lot of sacrifice (from the whole family - spontanaeity was probably the first sacrifice, my husband's career the second) - but we really are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. He's a lovely smart and loving teenager now, he still has his problems, but we live with them and things are so much better.

 

Every child's different, and I wouldn't presume to compare my situation to yours. I hope you're able to get some help from CAHMS.

 

Elanor

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Elanor

 

do you have any idea why Time out Doesnt work with a child with ASD or like J, we where told not to do this too, after he throw a chair at me and hit me knocking me to the floor, what is it about time out, do you think it is that is such a trigger for more aggression and distruction?

 

JsMum

Edited by JsMum

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Of course he needed to learn and understand boundaries, but it always helped to understand why he behaved so badly, and that sometimes punishment was not appropriate. If he lost control, was this because he was doing something naughty, or because he was overwhelmed with feelings he didn't have the means to control or deal with? If it was the second, then why would I punish him, and what did it do to him when he was punished?

 

Absolutely agree that you need to look at triggers, and when my DS was little our life was very different to the norm to support his need for routine, sensory issues, etc, etc.

 

BUT, if he hurt someone else because he was overwhelmed as you describe, there was still a consequence, especially if it was one of his sisters...what message are we sending to our other children if they see that they can get hurt without consequences for the agressor? And although it may sound harsh, in adult life the law won't accept aggression from someone just because they are overwhelmed/have ASD, etc, and eventually all our kids will have to live in the adult world where consequences for aggressive behaviour are extremely swift (either someone bigger than them will just deck them, or they will end up in a police cell :( ).

 

J'sMum: one thing about emotions...our kids not only find it difficult to recognise other people's emotions, they also have huge trouble identifying their own emotions. Even as an adult I still have trouble with this myself. At my son's residesi school they did a lot of work with him linking what was happening to him physically with the underlying emotion, to help him identify what he was feeling. That might be an area to explore??

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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Personally, I disagree totally with the idea that TO doesn't work for 'our' kids (or other kids come to that)

 

One of the biggest problems with any sort of 'extinction' therapy is that there is likely to be an escalation in behaviour prior to the 'control' starting to work. Perhaps some psychiatrists advise against it in situations where the behaviours are already so extreme that an escalation would be unmanagable, or where the over riding imperative would seem to be one of response consistency before behaviour management can be addressed appropriately?

 

That said, I do think there is an increasingly worrying tendency among a small number of professionals to see our children as something 'other' - and to overlook the universal psychological imperatives that are at the root of all human and animal behaviours. While I think it is extremely important to acknowledge and accommodate the differences appropriately, I think it is highly damaging to overlook the fundamental drives that are shared by all kids, and often actually exaggerated in our own.

 

One other very negative association about 'Time Out' is that it is a punishment, when in fact (after the initial resistance has calmed) it's actually the opposite. He very rarely has the need to do it now, but in the past my son would ask for time out when he realised that stresses of school or some social situation were getting beyond him... he couldn't have come to that understanding and awreness of the benefits without experiencing them in other (enforced) circumstances, because the only strategy he had for coping prior to that was declaring war...

 

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

PS: Just seen elenors post about 'why would I punish him for something he couldn't help'...

In a nutshell, because that's how children learn... A two year old may not have the capacity to understand the 'rules' that make it necessary for him/her to be 'sorry' after hurting someone and have absolutely no self-control about the 'triggers' that cause them to do so. They learn those rules and that control by the very same processes our own children do. The timescales may be different, and there may be other complicating factors, but fundamentally you're looking at the same learning curve...

 

BD :)

Edited by baddad

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Bid and Baddad - I don't disagree with either of your arguments about consequences and responsibility.

 

However, I wanted to make 2 points really - firstly that the aggressive behaviour might be linked to stress and anxiety, and those root causes should be understood and addressed as well. Punishing a behaviour and understanding it are not mutually exclusive.

 

Secondly, an ASD child experiencing an extreme meltdown or rage (see Myers/Southwick 'Asperger Syndrome and Difficult Moments' which was a breakthrough read for me) is not rational, is not in control and as a consequence, isn't responsible for what he does. He might not even be aware of what he has done, and in the aftermath can be incredibly vulnerable. This isn't in the same league as a tantrum and it shouldn't be treated in the same way.

 

As for Time Out - particularly the version whereby a child's period of exclusion increases with the extent of his defiance - l think it might not work because its confrontational, works only if the child will back down and go into Time Out in the first place, and can just escalate the situation and even provoke meltdown.

 

Elanor

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Guest Lya of the Nox

However, I wanted to make 2 points really - firstly that the aggressive behaviour might be linked to stress and anxiety, and those root causes should be understood and addressed as well. Punishing a behaviour and understanding it are not mutually exclusive.[

 

i can see that i get walluped cos of stress, but i dont wallup her cos i stressed!!!!! and yes i may not be asd, but i human ( well nearly :whistle:

but when she is an adult she cannot wallup others cos they are stressing her out , she needs to be able to manage her emotions,

 

time out has always worked here, cos once we are at the point of that much violence it is the point of no return and she needs cool down time

and i have read it somewhere that it is best to leave them till they are out of it, and if you go back those t2 mins earlier then it could kick off again

and i have had that too

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Bid and Baddad - I don't disagree with either of your arguments about consequences and responsibility.

 

However, I wanted to make 2 points really - firstly that the aggressive behaviour might be linked to stress and anxiety, and those root causes should be understood and addressed as well. Punishing a behaviour and understanding it are not mutually exclusive.

 

Secondly, an ASD child experiencing an extreme meltdown or rage (see Myers/Southwick 'Asperger Syndrome and Difficult Moments' which was a breakthrough read for me) is not rational, is not in control and as a consequence, isn't responsible for what he does. He might not even be aware of what he has done, and in the aftermath can be incredibly vulnerable. This isn't in the same league as a tantrum and it shouldn't be treated in the same way.

 

As for Time Out - particularly the version whereby a child's period of exclusion increases with the extent of his defiance - l think it might not work because its confrontational, works only if the child will back down and go into Time Out in the first place, and can just escalate the situation and even provoke meltdown.

 

Elanor

 

All I can say as an autistic adult myself is that we all end up living in the real world, where aggression is not tolerated or accepted, either socially or legally.

 

As parents, I believe it is our job to equip our kids to live as independently as they can in this real world, and central to that is for them to recognise that aggressive behaviour is unacceptable.

 

Bid

Edited by bid

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Secondly, an ASD child experiencing an extreme meltdown or rage (see Myers/Southwick 'Asperger Syndrome and Difficult Moments' which was a breakthrough read for me) is not rational, is not in control and as a consequence, isn't responsible for what he does. He might not even be aware of what he has done, and in the aftermath can be incredibly vulnerable. This isn't in the same league as a tantrum and it shouldn't be treated in the same way.

the thing is,i dont know the difference between a meltdown or tantrum,ive never known how to work out whats what

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We had a thread on meltdowns a while back, and how they differ from temper tantrums. There were a lot of useful insights from all sorts of people. Everyone's child is different, and so is everyone's parenting style and strategies.

 

One other very negative association about 'Time Out' is that it is a punishment, when in fact (after the initial resistance has calmed) it's actually the opposite. He very rarely has the need to do it now, but in the past my son would ask for time out when he realised that stresses of school or some social situation were getting beyond him... he couldn't have come to that understanding and awreness of the benefits without experiencing them in other (enforced) circumstances, because the only strategy he had for coping prior to that was declaring war...

 

We've always used Time Out as a way of B being able to get his act together by removing himself from the source of the stress and aggravation. At first, I always had to impose it on him, and it worked because he calmed down in his own room enough to be able to articulate what had upset him so much. Or to be calm enough to listen. His bedroom is his refuge, time out doesn't involve removal of toys or cats from his room, he's being given a breathing space.

Now, he stomps off up to his room before he blows. Not always, but frequently!

He has a Time Out card that he uses in school, he goes to the support centre and reads until he feels calm enough to cope. There are people there, including one TA who is his point of reference, and he has time to talk things through and work out what he might do next time. It's working, his emotional maturity is developing and the social skills lessons that he has are giving him ways of coping with the world that make him feel he has some control over himself and situations that he's in.

 

we all end up living in the real world, where aggression is not tolerated or accepted, either socially or legally.

 

As parents, I believe it is our job to equip our kids to live as independently as they can in this real world, and central to that is for them to recognise that agressive behaviour is unacceptable.

 

I agree, and I believe that this is one of the methods that B can use to help him express himself in a less aggressive way. He hasn't hit anyone for over a year now. And he's happier.

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However, I wanted to make 2 points really - firstly that the aggressive behaviour might be linked to stress and anxiety, and those root causes should be understood and addressed as well. Punishing a behaviour and understanding it are not mutually exclusive.

 

I totally agree. If I gave the impression that intervention (I think 'punishment' is the wrong word) is the be all and end all I apologise. I just don't think that knowing the root of a behaviour absolves responsibilty for it, either on the part of the actor or the viewer. Worst case scenario, I also think it's cold comfort for either the actor or his victim if the latter can 'understand why' the former has hospitalised them...

Secondly, an ASD child experiencing an extreme meltdown or rage (see Myers/Southwick 'Asperger Syndrome and Difficult Moments' which was a breakthrough read for me) is not rational, is not in control and as a consequence, isn't responsible for what he does. He might not even be aware of what he has done, and in the aftermath can be incredibly vulnerable. This isn't in the same league as a tantrum and it shouldn't be treated in the same way.

 

I made exactly that point in my comparison with a two year old, or do you believe a two year old is in control and responsible? The learning curve is still the same, and the interventions equally necessary to help them to the next stage where they can exert control and respond rationally...

Taking your logic to it's extreme, you end up with a 30 year old who's self esteem might be intact but is absolutely isolated outside of the family network, and who considers knocking seven shades out of his aging parents an absolutely right, proper and appropriate response to life's stresses.

Alternatively, we can trust that rationality and self control, together with understanding of the wider concepts of personal responsibility and consequences, will spontaneaously appear at some point without intervention or education...

As for Time Out - particularly the version whereby a child's period of exclusion increases with the extent of his defiance - l think it might not work because its confrontational, works only if the child will back down and go into Time Out in the first place, and can just escalate the situation and even provoke meltdown.

 

Escalation is something I highlighted in my earlier post. It is a predictable and understandable side effect of any intervention that attempts to control rather than 'adapt' the situation. Put simply, the child does not want to lose the control their behaviours have previously empowered them with. What do you think is gained in a scenario where the adult repeatedly backs down, apart from reinforcement that the aggressive behaviours work?

 

Elanor

 

Having said that I think maybe that this thread is moving away from it's intended topic, (sorry, viper :oops: ) so I'll bow out after this post...

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Back to the original post.

When B was 8, he weighed almost 8 stone and when he charged at someone , he would take them off their feet.

He used to punch, usually only once, because once was enough to remove the source of the irritation. Once that had happened, he was happy and would act as if everything was back to normal. He'd blown up, but now he was OK, so everyone else should be OK with it as well was his reasoning.

Well, it wasn't OK, and him learning that took a long time and very small steps.

We used Time out, removal of him from the situation ( I'm short but strong) constantly making the links between specific action and consequence. He's 12 now, and the process is still ongoing. I no longer have to physically remove him which is a good thing because he is now 5'6" and 9 stone. He's freely choosing to use strategies that were previously imposed on him. Although sometimes as he goes, I can hear him muttering ' bl**dy stupid bl**dy sister..' or whatever it was that upset him. He's honest about it too, when we talk about it 20 minutes later, he knows what triggered him.

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May be if you cant use time out, what about a safe area, thats his space for trying to control his angry mode, for us time out isnt safe any more so we dont use it, Js most challenging behaviour is around defiance, advoidance, and many things are a trigger from what was on the dinner plate to having to do a task.

 

Its certainly not easy raising a child who is confrontational, its drains you, so good luck for now and keep strong, tomorrow try and get a gp appointment, for him to refer you for the ODD childrens programmes.

 

JsMum

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Its certainly not easy raising a child who is confrontational, its drains you, so good luck for now and keep strong,

JsMum

 

Agreed, B has AS without ODD, so as always, horses for courses.

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I have been reading all replies with interest as DD 8yrs has terrible meltdowns on a daily basis at the moment. Am considering seld defence classes for myself and other DD12 yrs as meltdowns sooo bad. However, I have changed tactics lately as I'm becoming increasingly worried at daughters very low self esteem.

 

The time out issue has been used in our house and originally it was a waste of time but over the past few months I have changed how I deal with the meltdowns. I stay very calm, talk in a very quiet voice and try and lead her to the safety of her bedroom to calm down. When shes calm I explain its for her safety and it seems to have worked on the whole. I won't get into arguements with her, look at her or do anything that can be seen to be misinterpreted by her to increase her meltdown into a more serious thing than it is already.

 

We also have family contract that we have all signed with a list of rules, ie no hitting, punching, kicking etc and daughter is rewarded if she can do this. However, I keep rewards small and am clear about when she will get her reward so she has something to look forward to.

 

Its very hard to not to take it personally when we are constantly being attacked and as I just said ours is on a daily basis at the mo so I hope this helps a little.

 

Dont forget to take some time out for yourself.

xxx

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I just want to say thamks to everyone that has replied. I haven't had time to read all of them yet as this darned computer died on me again yesterday and I am nursing it through as much as I can. We are getting a new one if we can't get this one sorted out so forgive me if I don't reply.

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Hi Viper...

 

'Puter - have you run virus scan's and stuff?

 

Bung the details in 'techie forum' and some of our 'puter wizzes, (you know who you are!) might be able to give you some pointers...

 

anyways, sorry for interrupting the thread again (but all in a good cause!) - I'll let it get back on target now :)

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Just a quick reply, not likeme i know.

 

but I am currently dealing with this agresion in my non verbal son.

 

I ignore the bad behaviour and dont react. The reaction is the reward.

 

when he is throwing things like knives and golfballs - try to pre-empt what he will throw and remove them. Use plastic knives at dinner. You do have to be consistent and I know its hard but it does work eventally (I hope :whistle: )

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