17 days later...

[hev]

do you remember the last big row we had here,the one where n went to his mums for the night,wel it was 17 days ago and n and s havent spoke since!!to be honest the house is the best its ever been but thats not right is it?before i would have got them talking but i know it wil all start again,steve stil walks past n and calls him a p(you know what i mean,steves fav word for nick!)but n ignores him where as before there would have been a row,i dont know what to do,shall i just let them get on with it?its affecting me more than them,but the alternative is arguing

[baddad]

I know what I would do if I was nick and s called me a p every time i walked past him, but i don't think you'd like to hear it...

Well done, nick - you're a better man than me

[hev]

im trying to get n to come to greenwich but hes quite reserved so i dont think he will,hes a very nice man,i might have a nick appreciation day but then again i would plan it all and by the time it came round i would prob dislike him knowing my mood swings

[Bagpuss]

I've said before Hev, Nick sounds like a wonderful, wonderful man, and you must feel that your stuck in the middle. Our DS is 14, NT, and I know if he called DH a p he'd never do it second time. It can be hard to stand together, and present a united front, but I'd back DH 100%. I've not got an AS teenager, so I don't know how much this is playing a part, if any, you know Steve best, and I don't want to make assumptions. Must be very, very tough for Nick to tolerate it........I couldn't say hand on heart my DH would. The atmosphere in the house must be awful <'> <'>

[Cat]

I have often got into hot water here for saying that I was the only one whom my middle son would take anything from or listen to. I can't pretend it to be otherwise it was that way and it eventually worked out for us. However had he walked around calling my hubby anything rude at all he would have lived to regret it. I would not have allowed that to happen.

 

It did take us a long time to find a balance and that balance included respect. Calling someone a p*** everytime you walk past them is not showing respect and Steve is getting away with this. I took no truck at all from my son and believe me he could be very nasty when he got going. I suppose I had to teach him what respect was and what it looked like but I did get the message through. He and my hubby now have a very good relationship and we do live as a family now where we all have our say and no longer walk on egg shells with each other. I know for sure that my hubby would not have let the remarks pass without wanting to my son.

 

Cat

Edited April 12, 2008 by Cat

[bid]

Hi hun <'>

 

Steve won't be allowed to speak like this to anyone at school.

 

If he behaves like this out in the real world as a young adult he will either get his lights punched out, sacked from any job or end up arrested for threatening behaviour.

 

He is quite capable of moderating his behaviour, and he does know what is acceptable...he does all this at school because he knows there will be concrete consequences if he doesn't follow socialy acceptable rules.

 

Tell him straight, and back up your lovely DH 100%.

 

Bidx <'>

[J's mum]

Would you tolerate this behaviour from an NT teenager? I know for a fact I wouldn't. My son is 12 and has Aspergers and if he spoke to anyone like that I'd put him straight on it. If he then repeated his behaviour I'd have his head on a plate.

 

Your husband is an absolute gem of a man, I can't imagine how awful it must be for him to have to listen to Steve abusing him like that and for you to not say anything about it.

 

Your son is perfectly capable of understanding what is and isn't appropriate behaviour and it's about time he was told. Your son is still a child and children don't ever rule the house, no matter how far from NT they are.

Edited April 12, 2008 by baddad

[Enid]

Hev, I`ll probably get slated for saying this, but here goes, if by N ignoring the bad behaviour and not fueling it by reacting, it makes for a quiet life, well you do what feels best, He is probably trying his utmost to provoke N so that a big row will ensue, N will move out and he gets you all to himself! Whereas if N dosent react hopefully S will get bored with it, as he will be getting nothing out of it. Thats what I think anyway. Best of Luck, Enid

[Cat]

I think that N deserves a medal for not biting back. But the message that is being sent out here to S is that he can provoke N as much as he likes and it's not only acceptable for him to do this no one is going to put a stop to it.

 

I had a HUGE problem with my son and the way he was with his step father and I have always been quite honest about it but what I would not tolerate him being rude or picking at his step dad like a spot. My hubby drives and I do not so when my son was visiting his own Dad or going anywhere at all it's never been me who has taken him, it is always by hubby. If he was rude or aggressive to his step dad then next time he needed a lift I would tell him to forget it and walk. You can not expect anyone to take all of the rubbish that is thrown at them and not throw some back.

 

It is sometimes easy to think there is no way that I can take on another fight here but the long term implication is that the longer you leave it the harder it will be to stop.

 

I have a friend whose son is now an adult and she once phoned me from a cupboard underneath her stairs where she and her daughter were hiding from her AS son. Because they refused to come out and face his fury he smashed up the house. She had tried to appease her son for years and it simply did not work. He now lives away from home but comes back on a daily basis to cause trouble. Not a nice place to be.

 

Cat

[mariaterisa]

It is sometimes easy to think there is no way that I can take on another fight here but the long term implication is that the longer you leave it the harder it will be to stop.

 

I have a friend whose son is now an adult and she once phoned me from a cupboard underneath her stairs where she and her daughter were hiding from her AS son. Because they refused to come out and face his fury he smashed up the house. She had tried to appease her son for years and it simply did not work. He now lives away from home but comes back on a daily basis to cause trouble. Not a nice place to be.

 

Cat

Very wise words Cat....I made up my mind some time ago to discipline my aspy child in the same way that i have reprimanded his nt brothers.Although,there have been times when charlie has become beligerent about something and has done a spanish inquisition on me and because his voice is very monotone and the constant quizzing and questioning has got to me ,i have on occasion just walkedaway,locked myself in the bathroom...but never any good, cos he would just get louder,more angry...so now i tell him to be quiet.."that is enough..not another word or you will not...bla bla bla etc" He is only 6 so after reading other posts I expect the worse is yet to come...or maybe not...who knows...but with all our might,my hubby and i will apply the same rules of behaviour as you would for nt children.....I am great believer in firm but fair...guidelines,face to face contact and teaching the consequences of certain actions...not that easy with charlie,but it seems to work for now...having said all that...kids will be kids and i sometimes wonder if they are now ALL born with a few more challenging aspects than some of us kids growing up in the 50's or 1960's...i say that bnecause...we grew up then with utter and complete respect for the law,teachers etc,but most of all our parents,,,,,,mums have always been given the run around but Dads...well,...i can recall my mother saying these words.."wait till your father gets home".instilling nerve racking fear in me cos you knew that the consequence was apunishment,no pkt money etc...well...we can but try ....but i guess' tis a parents" lot" for life irrespective of the child and the needs/differences ....maria x

[bid]

Hev, I`ll probably get slated for saying this, but here goes, if by N ignoring the bad behaviour and not fueling it by reacting, it makes for a quiet life, well you do what feels best, He is probably trying his utmost to provoke N so that a big row will ensue, N will move out and he gets you all to himself! Whereas if N dosent react hopefully S will get bored with it, as he will be getting nothing out of it. Thats what I think anyway. Best of Luck, Enid

 

Sorry, but all that is happening here is that Steve is being a bully, and by ignoring his behaviour he continues to think that he can do whatever he likes

[smiley]

Hey hun, horrid situation to be around i bet.

 

I think i would skin, hang, draw and then quarter my little darling if he tried that - but i know all the struggles you've had with s, and how far you have come.

 

Can you talk to s's school about it? And see if they can suport you and n in a way forward to stop this behaviour?

 

Give that N a big squish - it can't be easy for him either. <'> <'>

Edited April 12, 2008 by smiley

[mossgrove]

Hev

 

The fact that S is autistic cannot be used to justify this kind of behaviour.

 

I sense that you have a real problem appearing to side with N where S is concerned. In the long run you are not helping S by failing to confront him over his behaviour towards N, even if it is the 'path of least resistance' at the moment.

 

Simon

[JsMum]

Hi Hev, I am not with a partner and one reason is I know that I would really stuggle with the 3 way relationship, part of Js difficulties is wanting to be in control and he does manipulate a lot, with a third party it would be very difficult to know who is in the right, its only when Ive taken a step back that I realise just how good J is at manipulating the situation and as a member here I think that may be happening with S.

 

I think S needs to understand what exactly a pea... is and what implications that could have on N, its could be seriously investigated if he was to share that with other proffessionals, it is hightly effensive and very sensitive because of your daughter been in hear shot, if she is to share this information with her nursery then things could get very complicated, S needs to understand the full consequences of how such a name is really offensive, I think he is choosing this name too as he knows it really worries you too, and at the end of the day who can really ignore been called a Pea.....

 

I think S should be given an instant consequence if he is to disrespect N in this manner, like others have said he is now growing into an older adolesent and he could really get him self into serious trouble if he choose to call a kid this in the street.

 

It maybe also that the real reason that N and S havent spoken because the most motive for S is to get a row going between you and N and now N isnt rising to it S struggles to strike up a conversation, I know I certainly stay well away from so called friends who belittle me or put me down or call me names why would N want to strike a good strong healthy relationship if all S is doing is been abusive and insulting.

 

Try and Name 10 positive attributes about N and then get S to do the same, I wonder if any match.

 

I think N has a lot more inner strength because he is still standing by you, he is supporting you, may be its now time to stand by N and give him the credit he deserves, and then over time all those posive attributes N has S will soon see that too.

 

JsMum

Edited April 12, 2008 by JsMum

[baddad]

Hi Hev, I am not with a partner and one reason is I know that I would really stuggle with the 3 way relationship, part of Js difficulties is wanting to be in control and he does manipulate a lot, with a third party it would be very difficult to know who is in the right, its only when Ive taken a step back that I realise just how good J is at manipulating the situation and as a member here I think that may be happening with S.

 

I think S needs to understand what exactly a pea... is and what implications that could have on N, its could be seriously investigated if he was to share that with other proffessionals, it is hightly effensive and very sensitive because of your daughter been in hear shot, if she is to share this information with her nursery then things could get very complicated, S needs to understand the full consequences of how such a name is really offensive, I think he is choosing this name too as he knows it really worries you too, and at the end of the day who can really ignore been called a Pea.....

 

I think S should be given an instant consequence if he is to disrespect N in this manner, like others have said he is now growing into an older adolesent and he could really get him self into serious trouble if he choose to call a kid this in the street.

 

It maybe also that the real reason that N and S havent spoken because the most motive for S is to get a row going between you and N and now N isnt rising to it S struggles to strike up a conversation, I know I certainly stay well away from so called friends who belittle me or put me down or call me names why would N want to strike a good strong healthy relationship if all S is doing is been abusive and insulting.

 

Try and Name 10 positive attributes about N and then get S to do the same, I wonder if any match.

 

I think N has a lot more inner strength because he is still standing by you, he is supporting you, may be its now time to stand by N and give him the credit he deserves, and then over time all those posive attributes N has S will soon see that too.

 

JsMum

Hi JsMum - I'm fairly sure there's a misunderstanding here about the 'P'

I think the 'p' s uses is the one that rhymes with 'hat' not the one that rhymes with 'Speedo'...

None of that detracts from the sound advice you (and others) have offered, but I thought I should point it out (and if i am mistaken, apologies for that too!)

Hev, hen, one other thing to really think about here is just how much S has achieved over the past couple of months, which you all should (and I'm sure do) feel really proud of . This one is a necessary step too, though, as in learning to negotiate his relationship with Nick Steve learns the elements for negotiating other relationships too...

Hats off to you and Nick, and to S too, but don't let that get in the way of 'phase 2', which has got to be S transfering all those positives he's gained to his interactions with Nick, who I think is genuinely deserving of the 'Bl00dy Nice Bloke' award 2008

 

BD

[Bagpuss]

Blimey, shows how my mind works.....I thought the p rhymed with sick

 

[mariaterisa]

Blimey, shows how my mind works.....I thought the p rhymed with sick

 

 

DITTO Bagpus...i thought excactly the same.....oops..reach for the carbolic!!

[bid]

Me too

 

Bid

[hev]

Hi JsMum - I'm fairly sure there's a misunderstanding here about the 'P'

I think the 'p' s uses is the one that rhymes with 'hat' not the one that rhymes with 'Speedo'...

None of that detracts from the sound advice you (and others) have offered, but I thought I should point it out (and if i am mistaken, apologies for that too!)

Hev, hen, one other thing to really think about here is just how much S has achieved over the past couple of months, which you all should (and I'm sure do) feel really proud of . This one is a necessary step too, though, as in learning to negotiate his relationship with Nick Steve learns the elements for negotiating other relationships too...

Hats off to you and Nick, and to S too, but don't let that get in the way of 'phase 2', which has got to be S transfering all those positives he's gained to his interactions with Nick, who I think is genuinely deserving of the 'Bl00dy Nice Bloke' award 2008

 

BD

baggy,you are right,i know why js mum thought that though cos he had a phase of caling nick that too

[hev]

this is where im struggling really cos i thought i was doing the best thing by ignoring his behaviour as i know he wants a reaction and a massive row like we have done so many times in the past,this is the most peaceful 17 days ive had for years,its not ideal them not talking but atm i cant see how they can possible get on with steve having no respect for nicl at all

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

hey hun <'>

how about before he goes back to school to tell him he has been rude to nick,

how good nick is to you all and espec him, and that altho he not bio dad, he is WAYYY better, and that he deserves respect, and you expect when he comes back from school that he is at lease civil to nick,

no more name calling ect, unless he can give you a very valid reason otherwise

and he has to look at the good things in nick,

and that you will not tolerate this any more: then the school can pick up the pieces, cos it dont hurt them emotionally to deal with this,

if that makes any sense, am v tired

 

xx

[baddad]

Take it up a notch, hev...

If S isn't getting the reaction he wants and decides that to do so he needs to start hitting out do you accept that to avoid a row? And where's the row you're avoiding - you're not avoiding it if you accept that the current situation is untenable, you're just delaying it while simultaneously reinforcing the behaviour as a viable method of 'control'... S needs to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this behaviour is not acceptable and will not be tolerated, he's not going to achieve that understanding if all the feedback implies that it will be tolerated and is acceptable.

It's tough, hen, but necessary.

Not making a comparison to your situation, but ask any battered wife why she doesn't 'fight back' and she'll say 'it makes it worse'... they keep saying that right up to the point that it is worse. It only stops when they make it stop

Steve's not in that league, but what he's doing is abusive, of Nick directly and of you and K indirectly. You're not doing him any favours by letting that continue, and he's shown you in the past few months what you've always known - that he is capable of so much more

 

BD

[JsMum]

Hev I want to make a personal apology for thinking S said the Word that rymes with Speedo, I did jump to conclusions because I know S has called him this before, I cant think what word he has used instead, p rymes with hat, but what ever the name if its abusive and threatening then it needs to be clear that you are very upset that S is behaving this way and an instant reprimand.

 

Anyway I am sorry.

 

JsMum

[hev]

you dont have to be sorry <'>

[Enid]

Interesting comment, baddad, about battered wives, one of my collegues said the same thing to me, she was a battered wife, she said I had the same symptoms, i.e. when I am going through a good period with ds. I am euphoric, think I can cope with it all, till the next time. At the moment am in the euphoric phase, not sure if thats spelt right! but can really see where Hev is coming from, real life and other kids get in the way, and even though you know in the long term its not right, sometimes its enough just to get to the end of the day without a crisis. Enid

[Kathryn]

Hev, this can't be an easy situation for all of you. <'>

 

Nick sounds like a real gem and you can tell him that from me. Not everyone would have such self control in that situation.

 

K x

[soraya]

Nick is being so good ignoring steve, l have it the other way round, my Nick can be so horrible to his Dad, but his Dad gives it back ten times worse which gets me really angry, i just wish my other half would ignore Nick as they have huge arguments and l end up as piggy in the middle!!!I know how you feel Hev when you just want a nice calm house, sometimes you just get very tired of dealing with confrontation all the time, and unless you have dealt with an aggresive and violent child it is easy to say what you should be doing but it is very hard to put it into practice. All l know is that after dealing with Nick for 14years with no help l will do anything for a quite life!!!Anyway l would def talk to school about it as Steve will take it better coming from them, and after all they are the experts.Hope all is calm you are doing a great job <'> <'>

[baddad]

unless you have dealt with an aggresive and violent child it is easy to say what you should be doing but it is very hard to put it into practice.

 

hi soraya - that sort of makes the assumption that none of the people responding here have had to deal with an aggressive violent child and 'gainsays' their authority to comment/make observations. In fact, several people have commented that their opinions are based on their own experiences, and 'dismissing' their opinions does them an injustice...

It's something I see often - and it really offends me: the assumption that because (i.e) my child doesn't display a particular behaviour now means he never has, or that the causes of those behaviours are somehow 'different' or incomparable. It negates all responsibility from those who are now dealing with similar behaviours (by implying their situation as somehow 'unique') and devalues all of the effort and hardwork put in by parents and children alike who have overcome such difficulties by saying their situation was somehow less severe or extreme.

It is hard to put into practice - I know; because I've been there/done it (and am still doing it when the need arises). Please don't trivialise my efforts because you have not been able to do the same, or trivialise the huge leaps my son has had to make to achieve those objectives. We both deserve better than that. I've not made any such judgements about hevs situation and acknowledge all of the difficulties involved.I hope I (and others) are deserving of the same respect...

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited April 13, 2008 by baddad

[bid]

unless you have dealt with an aggresive and violent child it is easy to say what you should be doing but it is very hard to put it into practice.

 

Just to clarify that I have had to deal with this with my own DS, and also professionally.

 

Bid

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

i too gave advice from my own personal experience

i still suffer with pain from a beating i got 3 years ago, and have lost count how many i have had, as had hubs

i have lived in fear, and do truly understand how hard it is

x

[J's mum]

and me - I've had both a violent son and husband to deal with. My girls ended up living with my parents for 3 months when my son decided choking them at the top of the stairs and then throwing them down was jusitified after they'd dared to use some of his felt pens to draw him a picture.

 

HEV - I know how hard it is, and I know that you just want to keep your head down and hope it all goes away but that's not going to happen. You really have to start backing your husband every step of the way in front of the children and make it known to your son that he has to respect his step-father. Maybe the old adage of if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all would be appropriate here.

 

Children learn by example and it's pretty likely that your daughter will start copying her brothers lack of respect an abusive behaviour - how would you feel then?

 

Tell you son his behaviour is unacceptable and won't be tolerated - instigate sanctions if he repeats his insults / abusive actions. You know how bright he is and that he's more than capable of understanding what's going on. Work with his intelligence and hopefully things will settle down.

[stressedmumto2]

Hev, I am just going to add to this that I think N is doing really well in a bad situation it can't be easy for him but I do think that by ignoring it isn't always going to work because in many ways it's like you're accepting that the behaviour is ok. How does N feel about actually sitting down with S and sayin hey S I don't like you talking to me like that because I care about you, care about your mum and I care about us as a family, but putting more ephasis on how he cares about S because I think he really must and deep down I think S needs to hear that, if he feels he can't do it then what about you saying it. But I guess you probably have already tried it.

 

 

I have a boyfriend, well we have been together nearly 3 years and he wont live with me as he does find it too stressful at times but I will not tolerate my son calling him names and in turn he wont tolerate my son calling me names, although it does still happen. I think S is feeling left out especially with going to resi school and maybe in many ways feeling that it's N's fault and I do think that this could be part of the problem and I think that if you feel it is then maybe in school they could also help with this situation as it would seem to me that S would benefit from having an outsider to speak to about it may help.

 

Good luck and sending hugs to all of you <'> <'>

[Karen A]

Hi hev.I know this is a bit of a different way of looking and things.I don't know if anyone has suggested it already and it might be very obvious.

If S is on holiday from school.Could it be that school have high expectations and do not accept behaviour that they see as unacceptable.

If S has found that boundaries are in place at school then perhaps he is acting out at home to test the limits and see what response he gets.

I am not saying you should accept the behaviour as ok at home......in a way S probably needs to know that boundaries at home are as firm as at school.

I know that is not easy in practice either <'> <'> .

I thought at least if you can see a reason why things have got worse when thet had been going so well it might help a bit. <'>

[soraya]

I am really really sorry if l have offended anyone l didnt mean to upset you all, l was trying to make Hev feel better, I know how easy it is to ignore things for the sake of a calm household. You have all given Hev good advice and l suppose it boought home to me what a lousy job l am doing with Nick, as he is so horrible to everyone and l just cant control him. You have all given me great advice over the past few months and l thank you for that but l will leave the forum now as I have upset many of you. I am so sorry l had a very bad day yesterday and l said some stupid things.

[baddad]

I am really really sorry if l have offended anyone l didnt mean to upset you all, l was trying to make Hev feel better, I know how easy it is to ignore things for the sake of a calm household. You have all given Hev good advice and l suppose it boought home to me what a lousy job l am doing with Nick, as he is so horrible to everyone and l just cant control him. You have all given me great advice over the past few months and l thank you for that but l will leave the forum now as I have upset many of you. I am so sorry l had a very bad day yesterday and l said some stupid things.

 

Hi soraya -

I think i can safely speak for all the other posters in this topic and say that's the last thing anyone would want you to be feeling...

I'm sure too, you're not doing a 'lousy job with Nick', and that's certainly not what I (and again I feel fairly confident I can speak for everyone else too) was suggesting was happening at chez hev with S...

It is hard doing it every day, and it it's perfectly natural to want to avoid confrontations...

As for saying stupid things - I'm the world's worst and i haven't left yet despite the petitions, marches and death threats - and when you're genuinely offering support for someone 'stupid' doesn't even come into it: more a case of 'wrong footed', maybe?

 

hope you'll still be about tomorrow (and the next day, and the day after that and...) and I will again take the initiative on behalf of everyone else here

 

L&P

 

BD

[KarenT]

If he behaves like this out in the real world as a young adult he will either get his lights punched out, sacked from any job or end up arrested for threatening behaviour.

Totally agree with this Bid.

 

J's only 9 but we have a zero-tolerance to rudeness and aggressive behaviour.

 

For some people ignoring works but for others it can make it worse - J's one of the latter. If you don't condemn it you condone it, in his eyes, so we have to draw attention to any inappropriate behaviour at the time otherwise he'll think it's ok and repeat it.

 

Rudeness is linked to reward structures and if he's horrible to someone he has to apologise and there's a sanction. We stick to these rules like glue and he's learning, gradually but it's coming.

 

Hev, really feel for you and Nick in this but S needs firmness on this issue, he must be made aware of how wrong his behaviour is and that he personally will suffer for it in the future if he doesn't take steps to acknowledge and correct it. Somewhere deep inside he will know this and is probably quite afraid of how he's feeling, and that it's his responsiblity to work through it.

 

Karen

x

[mossgrove]

Soraya

 

If there was a forum rule against posting things you later wish you could have phrased better I would have been expelled from the forum years ago!!

 

I sincerely hope you decide to stay around.

 

Simon

 

 

I am really really sorry if l have offended anyone l didnt mean to upset you all, l was trying to make Hev feel better, I know how easy it is to ignore things for the sake of a calm household. You have all given Hev good advice and l suppose it boought home to me what a lousy job l am doing with Nick, as he is so horrible to everyone and l just cant control him. You have all given me great advice over the past few months and l thank you for that but l will leave the forum now as I have upset many of you. I am so sorry l had a very bad day yesterday and l said some stupid things.

[soraya]

Once again l am putting my foot in it l didnt mean at all that Hev is not doings things right l just wanted to sympathise with her as l am in the same position, l just know that l should be taking all the advice that you are giving Hev but l dont feel strong enough as Nick is so violent and aggressive, and l am not dealing with him very well at the moment Hev has done a great job with steve and im sure he will turn out to be a lovely young man. Thank you everyone for your support,in the past, l will leave now before l upset anyone again. x

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

you are not doing a lousy job with nick!!!

we are good parents, living under difficult unsupported circumstance

stay,we need each other

x

[dooday24]

dont leave u r the best u can in difficult cicumstances

we all have our ups and downs

love donnaxxxx