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thebuzzer

Is this bullying?

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Picked DS up from school today (he finishes after lunch) and had a quick chat with his LSA. She told me that the boy that DS calls his best friend and is frankly obsessed with playing with, has been trying to provoke reactions in DS (the boy must have death wish, a very dangerous game). He sometimes refuses to play with DS (fair enough he doesn't have to play with him if he doesn't want to) but, LSA feels it is more about he wants to upset DS - which it does he cries, and the other boy is now bringing in Lego (which is DS's favourite) but refusing to let him even have a passing glance at it, but quite happy to let the other children play with it. The LSA had a chat with the boy concerned and explained that this was rather unfair and upsetting to DS, but the boy frankly didn't care at all. THe LSA said she couldn't make the boy let DS have a look as it was his Lego, which I appreciate but I find it so frustrating, I am trying to teach DS appropriate behaviour and then he is being baited!

 

 

I know we can't wrap our kids up in cotton wool, but it there have been other incidences and in a recent meeting DS's class teacher remarked that the boy does deliberately goad DS. DS when provoked is likely to get physical, hence my previous comment of the boy playing a dangerous game! I have a meeting tomorrow (we have one every 2 weeks at the school) and want to bring this up without seeming like the over protective parent. I can deal with DS's hurt feelings at home, but can see DS getting into trouble for reacting to this. He did rise above the lego incident today, thankfully. I had chat with him about both things and asked him if he felt this was the way a friend would act, he replied 'no, but he is still my best friend!' AGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! His LSA's have both said it is no a friendship they think should be encouraged. But try getting that through to my DS.

 

Do you think I should mention this tomorrow, and how to tackle it?

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No, it's not bullying. It's just the normal childish behaviour of children. It's very hard for your son, but all you can really do is ask them to try and redirect/refocus his attention elsewhere.

if you turn it on its head, the other boy could claim that he was being bullied - you've said yourself that your son regards him as his best friend (despite the fact that the other boy doesn't want to play with him), follows him obsessively and that when the other boy goads him (by which i guess you mean he refuses to play with him or asks your son to leave him alone) your son hits him...

Of course, i'm not for one second saying that your son is bullying him or anything like it, and i can really appreciate both your own and your son's sadness/frustration, but i don't think you can say that the other boy is a bully either.

Can your son take in his own lego - preferably a bigger/brighter set? Are there other kids in the school that they can direct your son toward as playmates, to remove the nasty 'cycle' that's evolved? Is there anything you can do outside of school (foster friendship with the child's parents and set up teatime dates after school etc)?

 

My son had a similar situation with his 'Best Mate', who sometimes, quite reasonably (not because my son's autistic but just because it's the way kids are - especially boys), would make and break friendships with other kids (excluding my boy in the interim), want to do 'other stuff' or just get off on teasing my son because kids do tease each other :(. Mine used to get really upset when BM (best mate) didn't want to sit with him at lunchtimes, and it used to upset me that my boy was upset, but all i could say was just find some new friends and BM will feel the same way you do if he's genuine. They are still BM - despite going to different schools since September - and my guess is that with my son being autistic and BM not their relationship will always be a bit inequal until BM can take a much more grown up attitude to things, but fundamentally the affection between them is real and they genuinely enjoy each others company.

 

Hope that's helpful

 

BD

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The government's own definition of bullying is "behaviour by an individual or group, usually repeated over time, that intentionally hurts another individual or group either physically or emotionally". If it being done deliberately to wind your son up, then it most certainly IS bullying. The key is the intention rather than the actual action or consequence. (which, confusingly, means that it may NOT be bullying if the boot were on the other foot, as an ASD child often doesnt realise what they're doing). We have an emergency meeting tomorrow on just this subject about P at school. I'm fed up of the excuse that it's "just boys being boys" and the fact that they make no effort to teach respect of others as part of the PSE curriculum.

 

Got to rush for a violin lesson but I'll be back later.

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the problem is, it is only the LSAs assessment that the other boy is intentionally behaving this way. the behaviour sounds perfectly reasonable behaviour for a child of that age and to delibrately engage in this sort of goading behaviour at 6 would be very advanced, especially for a boy.

 

i have to admit to behaving in a somewhat similar way, and in a similar situation when i was about 9. i was constantly followed round and 'pestered' by another child in my class. she wanted to talk all the time, wanted to play with whatever i had, would insist on being inluded in a game when we'd just sorted out teams or whatever. i did not want to play with her, but she wouldn't leave me alone. so i wound up delibrately excluding her, making sure we set up games away from where she was standing, or stopping her being involved in a conversation. it was not malicious. i did not intend to upset her, i was simply fed up with not being able to do anything without her being there and wanted a break.

 

i'm having trouble working out exactly what the motivation for winding your son up would be. the child would gain nothing from it, and in fact is likely to get more hassle, especially if the LSA is now intervening and trying to pressure him into playing with your son.

 

perhaps explaining to your son that everyone needs a break sometimes, and that even best friends can play with other people would help. or even working with his LSA to enforce a day a week when he delibrately plays with someone else. that way you could promote other friendships while not actively challenging your sons assertion that the other child is his best friend.

 

i would also ask the teacher and playground staff about the two childrens interaction, just to check that the LSA isn't biased against the other child because she is having to deal with the fallout. it would be very unfair to label the other child a bully if they are not, and simply cannot cope with the AS problem of your son not reading social cues.

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I would say that you are concerned that your child might react badly to this behaviour, and see what they say. At the school I work at, we do encourage children not to be nasty/exclude others - if they have had enough of someone, they use their hand to make a stop sign, which means the other child must leave them alone (often it is the KS1 children chasing the KS2 children, which they like for a while and then get fed up with). We also help children to find someone else to play with. There are polite ways to say "I have played with you all week, so today I would like to play with someone else".

 

One child has a chart, which has several children's names and several activities velcroed on it. The child chooses a child and an activity each morning and that is who he plays with and what he does for that day's breaks. It includes using the computers, which children are not normally allowed to do, so they enjoy getting chosen.

 

We have a child new to a class who has not yet learnt when to back off. He has been close to being attacked several times by a particular child, because of this. I feel it is an important life skill for him to learn - that there is a point at which it is sensible to back off/walk away/get help. He is an only child, and I don't think he has learnt this skill because he has no siblings.

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The government's own definition of bullying is "behaviour by an individual or group, usually repeated over time, that intentionally hurts another individual or group either physically or emotionally". If it being done deliberately to wind your son up, then it most certainly IS bullying. The key is the intention rather than the actual action or consequence. (which, confusingly, means that it may NOT be bullying if the boot were on the other foot, as an ASD child often doesnt realise what they're doing). We have an emergency meeting tomorrow on just this subject about P at school. I'm fed up of the excuse that it's "just boys being boys" and the fact that they make no effort to teach respect of others as part of the PSE curriculum.

 

Got to rush for a violin lesson but I'll be back later.

 

Yup im with you...im sick of it being passed of as boys being boys...just a way to get out of the extra paper work or actually having to do something to sort it. :wallbash:

 

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Hi

 

I'd be annoyed by this, especially given that your son's class teacher and LSA feel that the other child is deliberately trying to provoke your son. I'm unclear whether or not your son is in mainsteam or not (I'm assuming so) - if this were the case, I think it makes this worse, because the other child should know better. In my opinion, staff should not simply shirk their responsibilities (sure, they can't make him share his lego with your son, but there's a bigger picture here!) and take steps to ensure the other child learns how to behave appropriately. Although this is not bullying in the conventional sense (I believe this IS BULLYING), this child is still deliberately trying to upset, knowing full well he'll provoke a response from your son which will make him feel anxious/upset/angry and will have an effect on his self-esteem.

 

Best wishes.

 

Caroline.

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I would possibly just side-step whether it is bullying or not but just express concern that your son might react to such teasing physically and could there be some strategies put in place that help diffuse that?

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Thanks for all your comments and replies, much appreciated, even if I don't agree with some of it, I still like to look at it from other angles as it were!

 

To add a bit more background to it and answer some of the comments made by baddad and noobynobbs, which may have been because my post was not that clear on some things! :unsure:

 

DS does not follow this boy around, the boy has been keen to play with DS since Sept and often instigates the play. Nor is there ever any pressure on the boy to play with DS, the school has a strong policy of respecting each other and if anything as I said it is felt that it is not a friendship to encourage. Not because DS has AS and gets obsessed with an individual, but because of the boy in question. We are doing a social story on getting DS to understand that it is ok for other children not to want to play with him all the time and to try and have a wider circle of friends. He does not hit the boy when he says he doesn't want to play with him. But like other ASD children can get physical when upset, which he knows is not acceptable or appropriate and we have always and will continue to support him in other ways to show his frustration or feelings.

 

What is unfair about the lego situation is that the boy is more than happy to let any other child handle or look at the lego, but specially says no to DS. This is not a just the LSA's assessment of it, it was also in front of a lunchtime supervisor and both the LSA's are more than capable and willing to deal with any 'fallout'. Both are mothers of children with SEN, one of whom makes my DS look like a mouse!

 

I feel Kazzen161 has some great strategies to offer in the school on how to handle social interaction. School is not just about 'education'. I have worked as and TA in KS1 and now work as a TA with children with social, emotional and behavioural problems, and even at the age of 6 or younger there are children who are more than capable and aware of how to manipulate others and to deliberately goad them, that is not acceptable behaviour at the age and the children need guidance on how that affects others. The SENCO is looking at setting up a social skills group for a few of the children in KS1, which includes DS other AS children, but this boy too.

 

As for what does the boy have to gain from winding my son up, well, my son gets upset, the boy gets a reaction and if DS reacts inappropriately he gets told off and looses some of his playtime. This boy does wind other children up as well to get a reaction, not just DS. The school are looking at supporting him as he is one of the most boisterous in the year and they are having other issues that are not concerning DS. They are in different classes and other parents have voiced concerns. The are other things that have happened I could mention, but the reason I didn't go into such detail in my original post is that I didn't want to look like I was gunning for this poor kid, I am not, just concerned.

 

I am in agreement with both Bikemad and Pippin on this one and would feel the same even if I didn't have the emotional involvement of a parent, which is probably why I love working with my SEBD kids!

 

Thanks to all again and I will let you know how it goes at the meeting tomorrow! :)

 

 

 

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Hi

 

I'd be annoyed by this, especially given that your son's class teacher and LSA feel that the other child is deliberately trying to provoke your son. I'm unclear whether or not your son is in mainsteam or not (I'm assuming so) - if this were the case, I think it makes this worse, because the other child should know better. In my opinion, staff should not simply shirk their responsibilities (sure, they can't make him share his lego with your son, but there's a bigger picture here!) and take steps to ensure the other child learns how to behave appropriately. Although this is not bullying in the conventional sense (I believe this IS BULLYING), this child is still deliberately trying to upset, knowing full well he'll provoke a response from your son which will make him feel anxious/upset/angry and will have an effect on his self-esteem.

 

Best wishes.

 

Caroline.

 

Hi Caroline, I missed your post, typing my rather lengthy reply! Yes DS is mainstream. You have summed up what I think so concisely (spelling - tired brain!) and yes it is having an effect on his self-esteem. He only does part time at the moment until 1pm. Many thanks

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I would possibly just side-step whether it is bullying or not but just express concern that your son might react to such teasing physically and could there be some strategies put in place that help diffuse that?

 

Thanks, you are right I am not going to actually mention the word 'bullying' tomorrow in the psp meeting, but will voice my concerns. We will hopefully have the Inclusion Officer from the LA who is brilliant and she always comes up trumps with strategies etc. Will let you all know how it goes.

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One thing that I worked out over time when my DS was young was that he perceived perfectly normal playground behaviour as 'bullying', i.e. someone bumping into him in a queue or during a game in the playground.

 

More worryingly, when he was older at secondary school, he completely failed to realise a group of other lads were consistently ridiculing him and told me they were his mates, until his Year Head explained to me exactly what was going on :(

 

I think sometimes it's must be quite hard for both parents and teachers to be sure exactly what is occuring.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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Hi The buzzer,

 

Children can be so horrible to each other, I'm surprised that the school allow the children to bring in their own toys ie Lego, surely the easiest was to remedy that is for the school to provide toys for them to play with and then there could be no argument about who could play with it?

 

I have worked in a few mainstream schools as a volunteer and like you I think children enjoy manipulating and putting others down, and they know exactly what they are doing and understand that they have upset the other children in fact that seems to be their ultimate gain. I dont understand why children are so nasty to each other and I know we cant wrap our children up in cotton wool and protect them from the world completly, but surely it is our job as parents to help them the best we can.

 

Good luck with your meeting, I hope it goes well and they come up with some strategies to resolve the problem.

 

Sarah

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kazzen161We have a child new to a class who has not yet learnt when to back off. He has been close to being attacked several times by a particular child, because of this. I feel it is an important life skill for him to learn - that there is a point at which it is sensible to back off/walk away/get help. He is an only child, and I don't think he has learnt this skill because he has no siblings.

 

I feel that there is more and more children who are placed in mainstream settings that have quite serious social skills and understanding and there is really nothing in place to really help them, yes we could hang back and wait for this other child to react physically but this new boy may still repeat his actions, it could be he has underlying social impairments and I do get really upset when people presume just because the boy has no siblings this is the reason for their social difficulties, J accessed an array of social events only to have just as many problems as he did in school, if he had of had a brother the physical aggression shows to his friends would of been much worse on his sibling.

 

 

Sorry but having an only child doesnt always account for the real reasons of social impairments, weve really tried with J to help him be social, in his special school he has severe difficulties around social context, social understanding and social communication.

 

Its clear that the boys we have discussed in this topic all need a lot more social support in interaction, fairness, communication, J has been bullied and he has been a bully, but at least I admit that and therfore I can help him.

 

Bulling can be hidden and in many ways it can be by rejection and communication and school that says they dont have bullies is a school that has the most hidden bullies in it.

 

Bullying happens in schools its how it is dealt with that is the important issue and a lot more needs to happen to help social skills for all in school including the teaching level.

 

JsMum

 

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