Behaviour different than at home

[Karen A]

I am just concerned, that knowing what I experienced with my LEA, that if there is any chance that the LEA can get out of providing support because they have a get out clause that 'the LASC have advised certain supports, but that that is not their area of clinical expertise', that the LEA will use this to deny that support from being put into any Statement. I don't know for definite that that is the case. But I think it is worth checking. In my case the AAT teacher said something similar to me about OT. She told me that she had been sent on a training course regarding sensory issues so that she could advise schools on how to support a child with sensory needs, however she was not qualified as an OT and therefore was unable to include those types of recommendations in any report that she made towards a SA for a Statement. So a parent might think the AAT can make those recommendations in her report, when she had advised me that she definately could not and that if a parent wanted any input from OT included in their Statement that they parent would need to have had their child assessed by an OT and for them to have made a report. And when I was pushing for my son to be seen by OT I was told then by both the OT department and the LEA that the AAT had training in sensory issues (as my son has a diagnosis of SID), but I knew that eventhough she could advise school, that school were resistant to anything being suggested to them, and the AAT did not put anything in her report about my sons sensory issues apart from acknowledge the fact that he did have substantial sensory issues which impacted on his ability to access the curriculum.

 

Sally.I have decided to post again because I do not know if you are concerened about Ben and myself.

If you are concerened about provision for Ben then there is no need to worry.

I do not know if you have noticed the numbers at the side for the number of posts posted.

I have been around here for some time on the Forum.

I frequently post from the COP ,IPSEA and ACE for others here.

Those who know me know that I am very able to push for appropriate provision if I need to.Karen.

 

 

[wasuup]

Hi.I think it is worth bearing in mind that Donna does alrady have multiple professionals involved.Although school may be in denial BEST and LASC are involved already.Any request for a Statutary Assessment would need to be supported by those involved already.They will know whether a SALT referal is needed.

In my area any referal for an assessment by a SALT would need to go via the psychiatrist who is involved already.

There are systems in place.

We also had major issues over OT.However the psychiatrist from CAMHS wrote to the OT stating strongly that her input was needed.

OH and myself have a lot of experience of working with multiple professionals across various agencies.At the last count we had worked with seventy different professionals across four different agencies.All of whom have supported Ben in the last three years.

I know that many people do have a difficult time obtaining appropriate provision.However there are some good LAs and some good professionals around.

I think it is worth bearing in mind that Donna does not currently have an IEP or documentation at School Action.

I think the first step may be to engage with the professionals who are currently providing support and to obtain clarification of the difficulties at the meeting in May.

If school do not have an IEP then even a Statutary Assessment is likely to be some way off.

If a CAF is being completed then the meeting that is coming up may well be a Multi Professional Meeting where the CAF is discussed.Karen.

K

 

"If school do not have an IEP then even a Statutary Assessment is likely to be some way off."

 

I asked the principle EP in my area about this as my daughters school had not provided her with IEP's (moved schools instead of applying though)despite regular SALT involvement at school and her being on SAplus for over a year. As outside agencies have been providing regular input then extra funding or stat assess will be given consideration just as if she had of had 2 IEP's was her answer.

 

[Donna K]

I think you do need to sit down and draw up an action plan regarding the upcoming meeting, and also for what you will do afterwards.

You have got organisations supporting you who know the difficulties you have with your son. Get them to give you their advice in writing rather than just verbal.

Unfortunately no professional can 'force' their way into school. I had a similar difficulty with my son ie. outside professionals were telling me what he needed, but school were not even asking them to come in and were saying that they were 'coping' and meeting his needs. So you do need to gather evidence that that is not the case.

It also sounds like some professionals have not taken their role seriously or done the required amount of assessments. Eg. SALT. If your son cannot understand what he reads that is called 'comprehension' and would also suggest difficulties with 'inference' as well. You can test this yourself by asking him what it means when he has read a story. These things can be assessed for. The way a child copes with this in the classroom situation is by trying to copy what the other children in class are doing. That is what my son also did. My son also had age appropriate expressive speech and I was concerned he would be discharged from SALT in the near future. But his receptive speech, comprehension, auditory processing, auditory memory, sequencing verbal instructions, inference, literal and concrete interpretation of lanuage, delays in processng language - all added up to mean he could not learn verbally or follow verbal instructions. My son also uses delayed echolalia (google 'delayed echolalia and autism' to see if your son does it.) (also google Semantic Pragmatic Speech Disorder).You can write a letter to the SALT department and say what you have put in your post and request that his understanding of expressive speech, comprehension, inference, etc etc (as i've listed), is assessed by a SALT that has experience of both speech disorders and autistic spectrum disorders.

School Action and School Action Plus are brought in (I think) due to academic or behavioural issues. If your son is on the national curriculum and isn't showing behavioural problems at school that seems to be where you are. But what is his cognitive ability? Is he achieving to his ability? He may be getting low results when he is higher than average cognitive ability, but because of his difficulties he cannot access the curriculum. And his difficulties with comprehension and inference will mean he won't understand the point of homework. He won't know what he is aiming towards, or trying to prove or achieve or demonstrate etc.

At my son's previous school I refused to do homework unless they set it relevant to what he could do. They didn't. He could not do what the class was doing, so I stopped trying for some time. He would just throw tantrums because he didn't understand it. Now he does do homework, it is relevant, it is at his level, he understands it. He doesn't always want to do it, but it is something we can all cope with.

I would seriously think about what you want school to do in supporting him. Get outside agencies to support you in writing and to support you in the fact that many children with ASDs have no behavioural problems at school, but that what you are experiencing at home is unacceptable. If the difficulty was reversed eg. behaviour at school, but not at home, how would school feel if you just said 'that's not my problem - deal with it yourself'.

Request that the PP comes to the meeting with you to take notes. And always take them to future meetings to take notes. Mention that the previous school nurse say your son self harm out of frustration (ie. punch himself in the face). And say that this has never been acted on or the implications of it taken seriously.

If, at this meeting, and after trying things recommended by the NAS school are still not doing anything (and make sure that is also in writing ie. write to them after the meeting with what is agreed, or what they refused to agree with timescales etc). Then, if nothing happens you might be forced to look at private reports. But I would put the LEA SALT department on the spot first to see what their response is. If they assess and find the difficulties you mention he will need supports in class and he will automatically move to school action plus with IEP/MEPs. Sometimes the mention of the prospect of getting private reports galvanises then into action. But you need to follow through if you use that as a threat. A private SALT will not make up things he needs. But they need to be independent (ie. not work for the LEA or the NHS), and you want one that has experience of attending Educational Tribunals as expert witness. From their report, if his difficulties are as you suggested, you should get evidence to get him on school action plus. Get IEPs/MEPs, and you can use the SALT report as evidence towards a Statutory Assessment towards a Statement.

To ask for a SA the school also needs to have done at least two IEPs. Your school is refusing this. Speak with the NAS about that. It would be useful to get that refusal by the school in writing.

Although the situation seems dire now, if the school keep denying this and not supporting him, you are slowly gathering evidence etc. In my case one LEA professional broke ranks and sent me an addendum to her report and a couple of emails condeming how her employers were behaving. I know she put her job on the line for that. Everyone seems to be supporting you in approaching school, so try to get that support in writing. They obviously don't think it is a parental control problem, but due to school - that is the whole point of the meeting.

I did reply to this the other day but my wireless went off and I've not been able to get on to trply since, so I apologise!

 

We are drawing up notes and a plan for the meeting, with help from PP so that should hopefully be a good start and help us while we're in there!

 

I know the professionals can't force their way into school, LASC are already there supporting other children so she makes a point at the end of the day to spend the last 10 mins in class with A, then comes out and talks to be before we go home, she said she will have a word about going into school more before the meeting but they're very unwelcoming and she feels like a spare part as they insist he needs no help, yet she can see clearly that he does and has been fobbed off when she's seen him getting upset and distressed. This school aslo say that they're coping and don't need any outside help for A.

 

I certainly think SALT should re assess on the issues you have stated above, I will have a go at seeing what he understands of his reading, if I can get him to read for me, he has gone a project to do from school which we haven't started yet, it really bugs me when they give if to do during school holidays! So I will see what he understands of that and see if I can get him to do some of it.

 

I don't know what his cognitive ability is, although I would like to know as I am sure it's our right to know! For all I know he may well not be acheiving to his ability because he's not got the relevant support in place. I really don't think he does see the point ih homework and in his eyes, although it's called homework, it's school work he has to do at home and with them being two separate places he doesn't see why he has to do it at home, it's like mixing the two which is probably why he gets distressed. School said at the last meeting that they would set his homework out in a way that was easier for him to understand and cut his projects down into easy chunks, I have seen no difference in his homework and their idea of cutting the project down was literal, they get 9 boxes and have to choose 3 of the activities in a line, one has to be the middle one, what they have done is cut the actual 3 boxes out so he doesn't have the choice as he thought he had to do all 9 and it was too much. He hasn't had a choice in which 3 boxes, he just gets given the box to stick in his project book and still has to do all of the things listed in each box, I thought it would be easier to give him one task at a time, broken into little chunks like that, not just the boxes cut out! They really don't want to make any effort it seems.

 

I don't know who would be willing to put in writing about the behaviour being different that home in ASD children, but there's enough of them mentioned it to me in the past so I know it will be brought up in the meeting, but like you say it needs to be written. LASC have said most of their current caseload is the same as it's really common. I also said to LASC the other week, funnily enough that how would school feel if they were getting all the bad behaviour and not me, they'd be screaming out for all the help and would be really un impressed if I had their attitude that it's their problem and they can deal with it because he's not like that at home, so they should take that into account and think how I must feel. I will make sure it's mentioned about the previous school nurse saying that she witnessed him punching his head while on the computers and it being ignored and her being silenced on the matter, I may see if she's stil available to contact, maybe our school nurse could get this information off her in writing as she's likely to know her.

 

School have implied many times that it's my parenting at fault, but my come back was that if that was the case then why aren't my girls the same? Surely all my children would have bad behaviour and be out of hand etc if it was my parenting skills at fault? They didn't like me saying that but I don't care for their attitude either!

 

[Karen A]

I did reply to this the other day but my wireless went off and I've not been able to get on to trply since, so I apologise!

 

We are drawing up notes and a plan for the meeting, with help from PP so that should hopefully be a good start and help us while we're in there!

 

I know the professionals can't force their way into school, LASC are already there supporting other children so she makes a point at the end of the day to spend the last 10 mins in class with A, then comes out and talks to be before we go home, she said she will have a word about going into school more before the meeting but they're very unwelcoming and she feels like a spare part as they insist he needs no help, yet she can see clearly that he does and has been fobbed off when she's seen him getting upset and distressed. This school aslo say that they're coping and don't need any outside help for A.

 

I certainly think SALT should re assess on the issues you have stated above, I will have a go at seeing what he understands of his reading, if I can get him to read for me, he has gone a project to do from school which we haven't started yet, it really bugs me when they give if to do during school holidays! So I will see what he understands of that and see if I can get him to do some of it.

 

I don't know what his cognitive ability is, although I would like to know as I am sure it's our right to know! For all I know he may well not be acheiving to his ability because he's not got the relevant support in place. I really don't think he does see the point ih homework and in his eyes, although it's called homework, it's school work he has to do at home and with them being two separate places he doesn't see why he has to do it at home, it's like mixing the two which is probably why he gets distressed. School said at the last meeting that they would set his homework out in a way that was easier for him to understand and cut his projects down into easy chunks, I have seen no difference in his homework and their idea of cutting the project down was literal, they get 9 boxes and have to choose 3 of the activities in a line, one has to be the middle one, what they have done is cut the actual 3 boxes out so he doesn't have the choice as he thought he had to do all 9 and it was too much. He hasn't had a choice in which 3 boxes, he just gets given the box to stick in his project book and still has to do all of the things listed in each box, I thought it would be easier to give him one task at a time, broken into little chunks like that, not just the boxes cut out! They really don't want to make any effort it seems.

 

I don't know who would be willing to put in writing about the behaviour being different that home in ASD children, but there's enough of them mentioned it to me in the past so I know it will be brought up in the meeting, but like you say it needs to be written. LASC have said most of their current caseload is the same as it's really common. I also said to LASC the other week, funnily enough that how would school feel if they were getting all the bad behaviour and not me, they'd be screaming out for all the help and would be really un impressed if I had their attitude that it's their problem and they can deal with it because he's not like that at home, so they should take that into account and think how I must feel. I will make sure it's mentioned about the previous school nurse saying that she witnessed him punching his head while on the computers and it being ignored and her being silenced on the matter, I may see if she's stil available to contact, maybe our school nurse could get this information off her in writing as she's likely to know her.

 

School have implied many times that it's my parenting at fault, but my come back was that if that was the case then why aren't my girls the same? Surely all my children would have bad behaviour and be out of hand etc if it was my parenting skills at fault? They didn't like me saying that but I don't care for their attitude either!

 

I think that whatever the school say the fact that BESD are involved is very telling.If the school really think there are no problems in school then why do they need external help ?

It is unusual for BESD and LASC to be involved with one child and it says very clearly that school are not coping.

If the problems are down to you why do they think CAMHS are supporting the AS dx . Karen.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Karen A

[wasuup]

I did reply to this the other day but my wireless went off and I've not been able to get on to trply since, so I apologise!

 

We are drawing up notes and a plan for the meeting, with help from PP so that should hopefully be a good start and help us while we're in there!

 

I know the professionals can't force their way into school, LASC are already there supporting other children so she makes a point at the end of the day to spend the last 10 mins in class with A, then comes out and talks to be before we go home, she said she will have a word about going into school more before the meeting but they're very unwelcoming and she feels like a spare part as they insist he needs no help, yet she can see clearly that he does and has been fobbed off when she's seen him getting upset and distressed. This school aslo say that they're coping and don't need any outside help for A.

 

I certainly think SALT should re assess on the issues you have stated above, I will have a go at seeing what he understands of his reading, if I can get him to read for me, he has gone a project to do from school which we haven't started yet, it really bugs me when they give if to do during school holidays! So I will see what he understands of that and see if I can get him to do some of it.

 

I don't know what his cognitive ability is, although I would like to know as I am sure it's our right to know! For all I know he may well not be acheiving to his ability because he's not got the relevant support in place. I really don't think he does see the point ih homework and in his eyes, although it's called homework, it's school work he has to do at home and with them being two separate places he doesn't see why he has to do it at home, it's like mixing the two which is probably why he gets distressed. School said at the last meeting that they would set his homework out in a way that was easier for him to understand and cut his projects down into easy chunks, I have seen no difference in his homework and their idea of cutting the project down was literal, they get 9 boxes and have to choose 3 of the activities in a line, one has to be the middle one, what they have done is cut the actual 3 boxes out so he doesn't have the choice as he thought he had to do all 9 and it was too much. He hasn't had a choice in which 3 boxes, he just gets given the box to stick in his project book and still has to do all of the things listed in each box, I thought it would be easier to give him one task at a time, broken into little chunks like that, not just the boxes cut out! They really don't want to make any effort it seems.

 

I don't know who would be willing to put in writing about the behaviour being different that home in ASD children, but there's enough of them mentioned it to me in the past so I know it will be brought up in the meeting, but like you say it needs to be written. LASC have said most of their current caseload is the same as it's really common. I also said to LASC the other week, funnily enough that how would school feel if they were getting all the bad behaviour and not me, they'd be screaming out for all the help and would be really un impressed if I had their attitude that it's their problem and they can deal with it because he's not like that at home, so they should take that into account and think how I must feel. I will make sure it's mentioned about the previous school nurse saying that she witnessed him punching his head while on the computers and it being ignored and her being silenced on the matter, I may see if she's stil available to contact, maybe our school nurse could get this information off her in writing as she's likely to know her.

 

School have implied many times that it's my parenting at fault, but my come back was that if that was the case then why aren't my girls the same? Surely all my children would have bad behaviour and be out of hand etc if it was my parenting skills at fault? They didn't like me saying that but I don't care for their attitude either!

 

Er NO his behaviour is because school are failing to meet his needs simply as and well known to be the case in children like ours.

 

[Karen A]

Er NO his behaviour is because school are failing to meet his needs simply as and well known to be the case in children like ours.

 

Exactly.

Sorry I needed to Edit the last post because I was distracted by attempting to mult-task on the five live phone in.I have added a comment now.

 

[Donna K]

School decided they would refer me to BEST and LASC for home support after having a meeting between themselves and discussing the content of two of the home/school diaries, they're hostile to LASCs involvement in school.

 

It's definitely them not coping with A properly and him getting so stressed through the day that I am getting so much flak at home from him, he's not been half as bad since being off for easter, yes we still have problems but behaviour in general has been less stressful than after school, it HAS to be school that's causing a lot of it, or why is he so much worse when I pick him up from school than he's been this last week?

[wasuup]

School decided they would refer me to BEST and LASC for home support after having a meeting between themselves and discussing the content of two of the home/school diaries, they're hostile to LASCs involvement in school.

 

It's definitely them not coping with A properly and him getting so stressed through the day that I am getting so much flak at home from him, he's not been half as bad since being off for easter, yes we still have problems but behaviour in general has been less stressful than after school, it HAS to be school that's causing a lot of it, or why is he so much worse when I pick him up from school than he's been this last week?

 

 

Don't doubt your parenting skills you are quite right it is school causing the difficulties not you!

[Karen A]

School decided they would refer me to BEST and LASC for home support after having a meeting between themselves and discussing the content of two of the home/school diaries, they're hostile to LASCs involvement in school.

 

It's definitely them not coping with A properly and him getting so stressed through the day that I am getting so much flak at home from him, he's not been half as bad since being off for easter, yes we still have problems but behaviour in general has been less stressful than after school, it HAS to be school that's causing a lot of it, or why is he so much worse when I pick him up from school than he's been this last week?

 

<'> <'> I know it is really frustrating when school do not understand how stressful school can be .We are enjoying a more settled time without the pressure of school.It is a very common issue with children with AS who are able to hold things together in school to some extent.It all comes out at home.

We have not even thought about homework.Ben is enjoying having some time out.Karen.

 

[Donna K]

Thanks

 

He has had a few moments, as always LOL but a lot easier to cope with than the constant battles after school, he really doesn't want to face this project, I know he needs to do it or he'll end up being made to do it in school or will be in trouble for not doing it but it's really hard work getting him to do it when he's so against it and all hell breaks loose, it's like deliberately causing the bad behaviour. He's been a little swine today on and off, school holidays get me down as he is hard work, thankfully though we have had some reasonable weather for him to be out on the trampoline which has taken his attention

[Sally44]

Can homework be something that is discussed with school?

If he is struggling to cope in school, then having to do more of the same at home could just be the final straw for him. My own son's behaviour used to be alot worse when I was doing alot of homework with him to try to give him a chance to catch up (when he was in reception and year 1). Then I just stopped doing any at all because homelife became a battle ground and the AAT told me to stop the homework and allow him to recover from his day at school. It did affect his school work and he did regress, but that actually helped to prove they were not supporting him properly in school.

Now he is at a new school and we do do some homework most evenings, but only a couple of minutes at a time. And no more than 10 minutes at any time.

[Donna K]

Can homework be something that is discussed with school?

If he is struggling to cope in school, then having to do more of the same at home could just be the final straw for him. My own son's behaviour used to be alot worse when I was doing alot of homework with him to try to give him a chance to catch up (when he was in reception and year 1). Then I just stopped doing any at all because homelife became a battle ground and the AAT told me to stop the homework and allow him to recover from his day at school. It did affect his school work and he did regress, but that actually helped to prove they were not supporting him properly in school.

Now he is at a new school and we do do some homework most evenings, but only a couple of minutes at a time. And no more than 10 minutes at any time.

I have tried discussing it with his teacher but she's very dismissive and tells him he has to do it because all the other children in the class have to do it whether they like it or ot, they all have the same etc, today after my comments in the home/school diary about last night's attempt, she's told him off saying she doesn't want to have to read any more bad things about homework and behaviour! She also told him he's not to ask his sister to do it because it's HIS.

 

LASC discussed it with the SENCO and the giving it to him in the morning etc was agreed, but they only did that the once, tonight it's been a battle ground again and he's had tantrums, thrown things and hidden under the table, come out and punched and kicked his sister! He has done some but he really wasn't happy about it, I am going to keep sending it in unfinished. I am not going through this every night with him, it stresses him out and is not fair on any of us really. He had a project over easter, he drew a picture on one page, got his sister to do a bubble writing title and that's as far as it went, he didn't even colour it in! If he ends up regressing through not doing homework then they need to help him appropriately in school and give him the suport he needs. I will definitely be raising this issue at the meeting.

[Sally44]

The AAT was good in as much as she explained to me that for many children, they try so hard to keep it together at school that when they come home they find it very hard to have to do more. She also explained that to school. And school were okay with that. But they didn't give me anything for him to do at home. They just put a copy of the homework in his book and said 'do what you can', well he couldn't do any of it!

I did used to do alot of work with him myself at home to try to help him make progress. But then I felt like I was doing all the work and his difficulties were not being recognised. So I stopped doing anything.

They can't just expect him to do the same as everyone else if he is behaving like that at home. You are not a human punchbag!

[Donna K]

Just wanted to update this,

 

we have had a meeting today and school have agreed to put him on an IEP and School Action

 

LASC will be going into school and home and implimenting strategies and telling the teachers when they have missed certain behaviours so they learn how to recognise when he gets upset, angry, distressed or stressed etc. They will work on ways to make his days as stress free as possible so that hopefully the bad behaviour at home will ease. He will get help learning how to recognise his own emotions and be taught how to react appropriately, given a help card to ask for help in class and at home, no homework for the time being and the home school diary to be a more honest reflection of his day, not so I can punish him for bad things, but so I know about them in case it affects his evening at home.

 

I feel this was a more positive meeting and I am happy with the outcome of what's been agreed on, now whether school will stick to it or not is another matter but I am happy for now Hopefully now things have been agreed to be put in place things will get better for him and us, if he's less stressed and angry then it should make things easier at home, time will tell but for now I am hopeful I really t hought they would have denied everything and not agreed to do anything to help A, so I was pleasantly surprised with the outcome. It was LASC and the inclusion officer who made all the suggestions and it's the inlcusion officer who allocates the funding so school were probably more willing as they know money will be coming for him now.

 

One thing that confused me though, I was told A has always been on their SEN register! News to me as I have never been told this before and does that mean he should have had help before now?

[Karen A]

Just wanted to update this,

 

we have had a meeting today and school have agreed to put him on an IEP and School Action

 

LASC will be going into school and home and implimenting strategies and telling the teachers when they have missed certain behaviours so they learn how to recognise when he gets upset, angry, distressed or stressed etc. They will work on ways to make his days as stress free as possible so that hopefully the bad behaviour at home will ease. He will get help learning how to recognise his own emotions and be taught how to react appropriately, given a help card to ask for help in class and at home, no homework for the time being and the home school diary to be a more honest reflection of his day, not so I can punish him for bad things, but so I know about them in case it affects his evening at home.

 

I feel this was a more positive meeting and I am happy with the outcome of what's been agreed on, now whether school will stick to it or not is another matter but I am happy for now Hopefully now things have been agreed to be put in place things will get better for him and us, if he's less stressed and angry then it should make things easier at home, time will tell but for now I am hopeful I really t hought they would have denied everything and not agreed to do anything to help A, so I was pleasantly surprised with the outcome. It was LASC and the inclusion officer who made all the suggestions and it's the inlcusion officer who allocates the funding so school were probably more willing as they know money will be coming for him now.

 

One thing that confused me though, I was told A has always been on their SEN register! News to me as I have never been told this before and does that mean he should have had help before now?

 

Hi.He should have had an IEP which should have been agreed with you.

Glad the meeting went well.

It is worth making sure that the plans are documented and that an IEP is produced that you are happy with.

Sometimes plans are made but not followed through as well as they might be.

If you decide to request a Statutary Assessment at a later date school will need to have documentation regarding what support was provided and how effective it was.

So it is worth keeping an eye on things. Karen.