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Donna K

Behaviour different than at home

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I ahve had problems with A's school since before he was dx last year and even now they still deny any problems.

 

I get told he's fine, that he concentrates and works well and they see none of the behaviour I write about in the home/school diary, now I have help from a Language And Social Communication Team (LASC) and they have been to A's class when they have been seeing other children there, I have been told that A gets very distressed when given his homework (Homework is a major issue at home) and that his ASD stands out a mile, yet staff say they don't think he's ASD as he's not like another child in his class or a couple of others in the school (no because the spectrum's huge and they're all different, numpties!)

 

A parent of an ASD child has been doing voluntary work in A's class, LASC see her son and she mentioned to LASC about my son saying he had a lot of problems turn taking and sharing, practically no attention span, lack of eye contact and frustration at trying to get him to do some work as he was struggling to understand it. She told LASC she thought my son has an ASD (She didn't know me then) and said she'd mentioned to the teachers but was fobbed off, LASC said he is ASD and they see me etc, then fed that info back to me, so I know he is presenting with difficulties in school even if teacher's etc say he's not.

 

If he's been naughty, he comes out of school really angry because they write that he's had a good day in his book (it's all they ever seem to write) and he knows it's not true, there's a lot of things they've not told me about things he's done in school, including breaking a drainpipe by repeatedly kicking it with another child, they put a good day in his book that day too, I only found out about it because he had a severe telling off and was sent to my eldest daughter's class to face the wall and she told me about it and said how upset he was etc. They shoul dhave informed me of this (and probably loads of other things) but they say that they won't put in the book what they deem as normal behaviour, but how can they tell when behaviour's normal or comes through his ASD and at what point does behaviour become not normal? :huh:

 

It sounds to me that for some reason they're covering up what he does as they've always maintained there's nothing wrong with him ,yet all the professionals disagree and say he's ASD.

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Dont know why schools do this Donna, but what you have to do is get a firm diagnosis, that`ll shut em up! welcome to the forum, its kept me sane many a night. :thumbs: Enid

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He does have a diagnosis doesn't he but the school are ignoring it? Would Parent partnership be worthwhile contacting? Perhaps ask for a multi disciplinary meeting with school to address your concerns and the concerns of the professionals to help the school understand your sons needs better so that they are more able to support him.

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Hiya, yes he has a diagnosis of autism, I am seeing the paed in 2 weeks so will see if he can be referred to an OT as I feel he has sensory processing disorder and I want her to look at tourettes too with the amount of blinking, throat clearing etc that he does and screwing his face up!

 

We had a multi agency meeting in September but it seems nothing was resolved as such even though when the psychiatrist went away he was under the impression things would change, he's backing me up all the way and we have another meeting on the 1st of May, I have spoken to parent partnership and they're coming with me, 2 people from Lasc, psychiatrist from CAMHS, school nurse, health visitor, somone from the BEST (behaviour emotional social team) someone from children with disabilities, also CAMHS want the paed there and an ed psych and inclusion officer :D School will be outnumbered this time so I really hope they will be pushed into providing what he needs this time, CAMHS are really annoyed that school still seem to be ignoring things and the school nurse is very disappointed, she gets on well with the acting head but is disgusted at the way things have been for us, she's had a lot of involvement with us recently so is really fired up to back us up :)

 

I have a nightmare at home with A, terrible violent behaviour, me being the punchbag and subject to verbal abuse too and things being thrown all over the house, doors being pulled off the hinges etc, refusing to walk home and dropping to the floor (he's hurt my back through me trying to make him walk) and all kinds, school staff have seen me struggle and have always said he doesn't do that in school. It takes between 5-10 mins to walk home, when he's like this it can take an hour. I think they're ignoring his behaviours as *normal* naughty behaviours typical of a 7 year old and aren't concerned, but at which point will it become a problem for them? I know there have been incidents which haven't been reported back to me and I know they see him problems but mask over it for whatever weird reasons.

 

Whatever he does I know he's not as bad as he is at home but he still does things he's not supposed to, like punching prefects or swearing at them or flooding the bathrooms, he finds these things highly amusing and doesn't seem to realise how bad that behaviour is! Also whatever happens during school hours, he's obviously getting really stressed for him to blow as soon as he walks out of the door!

Edited by Donna K

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It is recognised and understood in professional circles that children with ASDs can have totally different behaviour at home opposed to school. And, if that behaviour is coming out at home because of the frustration he has in school then eventhough the behaviour is not showing itself in their environment, it is that environment that is responsible for the majority of it.

As he has these behaviours (whether in or out of school), suspected tourettes, suspected sensory integration disorder etc. I think you would have a case for asking for a Statutory Assessment towards a Statement. Then the school is legally required to provide the supports outlined in the Statement. Do you think that is a possibility, especially as everyone seems to be supporting you in trying to get the supports he needs in school?

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I use to childminder for a 3 year old who had a diagnosis for autism, at meetings we, his preschool, myself and his mother could have been talking about 3 different children.

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Home is usually a safe place for letting off steam and letting out frustration that has been held in all day hence the seemingly different behaviours. As at school he finds it difficult to be able to communicate especially to people who don't really understand his difficulties which can probably lead to an unexploded bomb effect for you. He also will be expecting you to know how he feels and feel angry and frustrated that you don't automatically understand this because you don't know how his day has been and need it explaining to you. I don't know if you could both have some time apart when he gets home from school for an hour or so before you talk to each other, could it be a rule that he went to his room and blasted something on a computer game first and wound down straight after coming out of school, or do you have a trampoline? He sounds really unhappy I do hope you don't have to wait long before something is sorted out to make things better for him and you.

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Thanks again for the replies.

 

I am going to question statement applications but I have been told that our LEA doesn't give statements unless you're looking towards putting your child in a special school or moving out of the area, HOWEVER, today I have been informed that this is a blanket policy so is illegal, I will definitely be making enquiries on this matter!

 

LASC seem to be quite aware of the different behaviours exhibited in different environments and said our case is no different to about half of their current caseload, so I am not alone in the fact he appears to behave reasonably well and conforms in school then I get the aftermath! This I think really does need thrashing out at the meeting in May. It can't carry on like this, it's not fair on him or the rest of the family when his behaviour affects us as a result of his school day.

 

Wasuup, I think you have also hit the nail on the head! A is verbal but doesn't always find it easy to get his point across, or understand what's expected of him, so he sits there and does hardly any work, for the teacher to put him down saying he can do better than that etc, but he doesn't always know how to ask for help, I think he gets stressed and can't work out what he's supposed to do and sits there rather than ask for help. I have noticed that the best work he's done has "supported" or "some support" written on it.

 

We do have a trampoline but going on that depends on weather and behaviour. Also, our routine is to get homework out of the way before anything else, it's a major stress factor and if he's doing something he's enjoying then has to stop do do it, he gets really upset, he gets upset and angry anyway so some nights we don't do it because I feel it's unfair pushing him constantly into doing something that distresses him so much that he hides under the table rocking or screaming and damaging things in the house. The down side to this is, when I have sent homework in unfinished or ripped up, they have made him do it in class and missed out on "golden time" (it's an hour of free choice activities, watch a DVD etc on a Friday afternoon) so that again distresses him. Although I would love to send him to another room to wind down doind something he enjoys, it is definitely better to get the homework out of the way first.

 

He also told me he didn't like some work he was doing so hid under the table, I questioned his teacher about this, she told me he does nothing of the sort, later he came home telling me he'd lied, so I guess she spoke to him about it. It did sound like something he would do. Now he's told me that if he can't do his work, he gets angry and upset (did a demo of shaking with fists tight and pulling a face)and said his name goes on the board for it and that he wanted to go under the table but when he tried he again got told off and they wouldn't let him, so it sounds like he's attempted it, but they're preventing it, so he wasn't really lying to me about it it seems. He said he tries to go under a table when they have reading on the carpet but he gets told off and made to sit back with the rest of the class.

Edited by Donna K

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Regarding the homework I would either do it for him myself or tell the school that you don't want him to do the homework if he feels he can't and you don't expect him to be kept in at school playtimes or miss out on golden time as a result as due to his disability he finds this task much harder than other children his age. If he is struggling then they should be providing the help in class. Homework is not compulsory at primary school age as far as I know.

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Although you are getting the behaviour at home, it sounds like at school not only does he not misbehave, but he also doesn't know how to ask for help etc. And when he does try to show then that he is getting angry because he can't do his work (eg. clench his fists and make a face), he is being punished for it. My son was also like this in school. And back then he wasn't supported and just used to sit doing very little work, or fidgetting or trying to get up from his chair etc.

I would recommend that you speak with the Parent Partnership and the NAS about this and about how to word a letter that you send into school. You seem to have the support of all the services supporting your son. I would send a letter to the effect that he is extremely unhappy and is showing violent/disruptuve behaviour at school that is around school and school work. I would request that he is assessed by the SALT for his expressive and receptive speech (receptive = what he understands eg. verbal instructions in class). Also his auditory memory, auditory processing and working memory. If he has problems in any of those areas he is not going to be able to follow verbal class instructions and know what he should be doing. Can he read? If he can read competently he could have some simple written worksheets to back up what he is supposed to be doing. He needs the TA to frequently check his understanding and may need visual timetables or visual instructions to help him work through his work. The SALT is also responsible for social communication such as asking for either help or timeout. So she should provide the school with a 'help' card and she should instruct both school and home in how to teach him to use this card. When he has learnt that, he also needs to learn how to use a time out card. And school should also have a quiet area that he can use to go to when he needs to get a way for a while.

The Educational Psychologist is the person who is responsible for emotional recognition and response. She should be putting together a programme for home and school and how to recognise his emotional state, (and emotions in others). And how to respond depending on his emotional state. This is really long term work because you want him to begin to understand that when he is upset/angry etc he needs to 'tell someone' 'what is making him feel like that'. He is already trying to show them that by clenching his fists and making a face - but they are punishing him for that!! What they should be doing is saying to him 'XXX I can see that you are angry. Lets go to the quiet area'. After 5-10 minutes they can ask him 'what made you angry', and then they can sort it out. These difficulties are typical of his diagnosis. Infact that is why he has got a diagnosis, because he has difficulties in these areas. That needs to be recognised and supported. Not ignored or punished.

Blanket polices - what can I say. Some LEAs say they don't do Statements for Special Schools, because special schools already have the expertise needed and they only do Statements for children intending to remain mainstream. Other LEAs say they don't do Statements for children who intend to remain mainstream or remain with their existing school. The truth is, they can say what they like, but it doesn't mean it is true or even legal. Speak with the NAS about that. You have a right to apply for a Statement wherever your child is now or is intending to go. What you need regardless of that is 'evidence' of need and written recommendations to meet that level of need.

Do you think his current school is ever able to understand and meet his needs? What other schooling options are there within your area. Go and visit those schools to get a feeling of what they do and what the pupil profile is. Some LEAs have schools which are a mixture of mainstream and children with ASDs (with around 5 children with ASDs per class). Other LEAs have ASD only schools for children who have typical cognitive ability. And remember academic achievement is not always a reflection of cognitive ability. My son scores high average cognitive ability. His ability in different areas ranges from a percentile of 93 in some areas he is good at to a percentile of 2 in understanding verbal instructions and to <1 in areas such as motor planning. That was part of my evidence that his school could not meet his needs. Children with ASDs typicall have this 'spiky profile' where they are quite good at some things, but other areas (usually associated with understanding/processing language and social interaction) are usually very poor.

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Regarding homework, I have in the past told him the answers, but then I realised he'd be getting better marks than his ability so I stopprd. His previous teacher told his older sister she should help him, he interpreted this as her doing it for him, the times I wasn't supervising homework she did it all for him, again resulting him getting better marks than his ability. I stopped his sister from doing it, of course he got angry about it, but his marks were misleading.

 

In the end I decided because of the amount of stress it caused him and the resulting behaviour, I would get him to do it, but if he showed a lot of resistance and stress then I would leave it for that night, otherwise I could spend all night trying to force him to do it, which is wrong. As a result his homework quite often gets given in unfinished, hardly done or ripped up in his frustration, this is what they need to see as it shows his distress, I also make comments in his home/school diary about it. They agreed to give him homework on a Monday morning and spend time explaining to him so that he had all day to get used to having it and have an understanding before he brought it home, that week they also went through some of it in school so he had less to do at home, I thought *great, they've realised and finally helping* but it only lasted one week, the next they gave no homework, the week after it was given on the way out of the door at hometime again! Lack of inconsistecy is appalling! The idea behind that is that he would hopefully be less stressed about the whole homework thing, now it's making things worse because they keep changing it for him, they told LASC that they did think about him not having any homework but thought they would try this first as it seemed a good option, which it is, as long as they keep up with it!

 

At a previous meeting in September at school they agreed to break his homework down and set out in a way he could understand it better, but this never happened. I also feel lit's unfair him being punished by missing break times and golden time too do the rest of his homework, in the past his teacher's had a go at him (in front of me) telling him he's being really silly and all the other children in the class have homework and do it and don't cry about it etc. This is true but they don't all have an ASD!

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Hi Donna.Does your son have an IEP ? Is he on the SEN register at school action or school action plus ?

What is LASC PLEASE ? I don't know what the abbreviation stands for.

The fact that so many professionals are invloved including CAMHS and BEST is very telling.Some people obviously recognise that your son needs significant support and is having difficulties even if school appear to be in denial.

It may be worth concentrating on the meeting on the 1st of May.Think about what you want school to be doing and make some notes.It might be worth taking a friend with you for moral support and to take notes too.It sounds like CAMHS are being supportive which is good.

There is a very good thread about children that are different at home to school.It was a favourite of one of the previous mod here.Others have found it very helpful.I will find it.Karen.

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Sally44, thank you!

 

A does misbehave at school but his teacher deems it to be no different to a typical 7 year old boys behaviour and not anything that I need to be told about, he is in a class of 31 with only 7 girls and the boys can be quite wild, so I think he gets lost amongst them all TBH.

 

I think when he's showing signs of distress or anger they should be trying to ask him what's wrong or like ou say take him elsewhere for him to calm down and then work out what's wrong etc. When LASC have been in and seen him gettig upset and distressed, they ahve gone over to him and worked through it and calmed him, she said the teachers weren't interested and said he's just playing up and not to bother with him! She's for home support, not school so really isn't supposed to be in his class bu has gone in when she's been there to see other children and made a point of going in out of curiosity just to see what he is actually like in school with them always saying he's fine etc, what she has seen is him not coping. I have asked if she can manage to go in his class and observe him more before the meeting in May so that she's a better idea how he gets on in school and has evidence that he's not coping that she's seen for herself as she can throw this back at them when they try to fob us all off.

 

To say school say he's doing so well, last year he was in year 1, this year my younger daughter is in year 1 and she's done far more work than he did last year, in fact the quality of her work is better than his in year 2!! This to me shows he's not doing as well as he shouhld or could be. I need to speak to PP again before the meeting anyway and have a few things I want to discuss so these issues will be among that, I need to make a lot of notes for the meeting really which I haven't got around to doing yet. School have known for the last couple of years the problems I have at home with him and his homework, more so now they have the diary as reference. To them it's a home issue, not their problem because it doesn't happen at school. He used to see SALT but they discharged him after they thought they couldn't get any further with his speech, I was a little disappointed with this as he'd been seeing the same SALT for a while and she was very good and could see the ASD, then she left and this one took over, saw him once in the clinic which was a complete disaster then in school to finish her assessment snd he was completely different although he didn't understand some things still, yet showed some awareness in others, so she said refer again if needed at a later date, unfortunately the waiting list is ages to see them again! I think it may be worth asking to see them again though, his literal meaning of things is getting far worse and more noticable, he is far too literal and I know this will be taken advantage of as he gets older.

 

He has started reading better this year but still struggles with some things, the main thing is that I don't think he understand what he reads, he sees it and reads it out but it has no meaning. He does struggle with verbal instructions in class, LASC said you can see he isn't sure what he's supposed to do, then starts copying the other kids so he's able to do the task, so taking cues rather than actually understanding. He has a visual chart / timetable at home and it really helps, I think one in school too would be a good idea but they would have to be willing to help him as he has no 1-1. The TA's aren't really bothered, they go anywhere around the class, not with specific children apart from one who is 1-1 with another ASD GLD child in his class. I think a help and time out card would be really handy for him, it may well ease some, if not a lot of his stress.

 

The EP he saw 2 years ago saw him for half an hour and said she saw nothing that would suggest ASD and he seemed fine etc (basically backing up the school, the school nurse he had at the time mentioned she'd seen him punching himself in the head, but was shushed and it wasn't noted, now we have a new school nurse who will not be shushed so easily!) To me she was a waste of time so I hope he will have a different one now, if one sees him again. They need to be really up on ASD's not just classic LF non-verbal autism, otherwise they'r enot going to see his difficulties.

 

Where evidence of need is concerned, the school nurse has recently filled in a CAF for him, it was signed last week and she's getting it off to all professionals involved with A, I am hoping this will highlight areas of need when other professionals fill their bits in as to what they feel he needs etc, this may help with the statementing if I am able to go ahead with it? I wil certainly be enquiring about that and the legality of our LEA's policies!

 

There seem to be a fair few ASD children in this school, most of them are catered for, usually only if the school have a problem with their behaviour and are very behind with their work etc, otherwise, like with A, they don't seem to bother. I am sure a lot of it is down to money and them not wanting to share a little more of their budget with a child deemed not as serious as others, also the head (whos beenn sacked since) has refused me an IEP 3 times for A! He said A has needs but not as needy as others so would have to wait and he was unwilling to help telling us to go through GP instead as school wouln't back me up! I think they could meet his needs if they had the resource and they stopped being so ignorant and actually listened to me and the professionals and take everything into account, not just him academic skills etc. They haven't shown me any scores of his levels of work, last year they said he was quite behind but not enough for them to be concerned, this year they're saying he's meeting targets, I don't know at what level though as they avoided answering me directly about it so I have no idea where his strengths and weaknesses are, I am hoping the SAT results will show up the help he needs as they can't really help him with those and will show his ability and anywhere he has a weakness. They won't be able to deny that then and I will also get a copy.

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I think you do need to sit down and draw up an action plan regarding the upcoming meeting, and also for what you will do afterwards.

You have got organisations supporting you who know the difficulties you have with your son. Get them to give you their advice in writing rather than just verbal.

Unfortunately no professional can 'force' their way into school. I had a similar difficulty with my son ie. outside professionals were telling me what he needed, but school were not even asking them to come in and were saying that they were 'coping' and meeting his needs. So you do need to gather evidence that that is not the case.

It also sounds like some professionals have not taken their role seriously or done the required amount of assessments. Eg. SALT. If your son cannot understand what he reads that is called 'comprehension' and would also suggest difficulties with 'inference' as well. You can test this yourself by asking him what it means when he has read a story. These things can be assessed for. The way a child copes with this in the classroom situation is by trying to copy what the other children in class are doing. That is what my son also did. My son also had age appropriate expressive speech and I was concerned he would be discharged from SALT in the near future. But his receptive speech, comprehension, auditory processing, auditory memory, sequencing verbal instructions, inference, literal and concrete interpretation of lanuage, delays in processng language - all added up to mean he could not learn verbally or follow verbal instructions. My son also uses delayed echolalia (google 'delayed echolalia and autism' to see if your son does it.) (also google Semantic Pragmatic Speech Disorder).You can write a letter to the SALT department and say what you have put in your post and request that his understanding of expressive speech, comprehension, inference, etc etc (as i've listed), is assessed by a SALT that has experience of both speech disorders and autistic spectrum disorders.

School Action and School Action Plus are brought in (I think) due to academic or behavioural issues. If your son is on the national curriculum and isn't showing behavioural problems at school that seems to be where you are. But what is his cognitive ability? Is he achieving to his ability? He may be getting low results when he is higher than average cognitive ability, but because of his difficulties he cannot access the curriculum. And his difficulties with comprehension and inference will mean he won't understand the point of homework. He won't know what he is aiming towards, or trying to prove or achieve or demonstrate etc.

At my son's previous school I refused to do homework unless they set it relevant to what he could do. They didn't. He could not do what the class was doing, so I stopped trying for some time. He would just throw tantrums because he didn't understand it. Now he does do homework, it is relevant, it is at his level, he understands it. He doesn't always want to do it, but it is something we can all cope with.

I would seriously think about what you want school to do in supporting him. Get outside agencies to support you in writing and to support you in the fact that many children with ASDs have no behavioural problems at school, but that what you are experiencing at home is unacceptable. If the difficulty was reversed eg. behaviour at school, but not at home, how would school feel if you just said 'that's not my problem - deal with it yourself'.

Request that the PP comes to the meeting with you to take notes. And always take them to future meetings to take notes. Mention that the previous school nurse say your son self harm out of frustration (ie. punch himself in the face). And say that this has never been acted on or the implications of it taken seriously.

If, at this meeting, and after trying things recommended by the NAS school are still not doing anything (and make sure that is also in writing ie. write to them after the meeting with what is agreed, or what they refused to agree with timescales etc). Then, if nothing happens you might be forced to look at private reports. But I would put the LEA SALT department on the spot first to see what their response is. If they assess and find the difficulties you mention he will need supports in class and he will automatically move to school action plus with IEP/MEPs. Sometimes the mention of the prospect of getting private reports galvanises then into action. But you need to follow through if you use that as a threat. A private SALT will not make up things he needs. But they need to be independent (ie. not work for the LEA or the NHS), and you want one that has experience of attending Educational Tribunals as expert witness. From their report, if his difficulties are as you suggested, you should get evidence to get him on school action plus. Get IEPs/MEPs, and you can use the SALT report as evidence towards a Statutory Assessment towards a Statement.

To ask for a SA the school also needs to have done at least two IEPs. Your school is refusing this. Speak with the NAS about that. It would be useful to get that refusal by the school in writing.

Although the situation seems dire now, if the school keep denying this and not supporting him, you are slowly gathering evidence etc. In my case one LEA professional broke ranks and sent me an addendum to her report and a couple of emails condeming how her employers were behaving. I know she put her job on the line for that. Everyone seems to be supporting you in approaching school, so try to get that support in writing. They obviously don't think it is a parental control problem, but due to school - that is the whole point of the meeting.

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Hi Donna.Does your son have an IEP ? Is he on the SEN register at school action or school action plus ?

What is LASC PLEASE ? I don't know what the abbreviation stands for.

The fact that so many professionals are invloved including CAMHS and BEST is very telling.Some people obviously recognise that your son needs significant support and is having difficulties even if school appear to be in denial.

It may be worth concentrating on the meeting on the 1st of May.Think about what you want school to be doing and make some notes.It might be worth taking a friend with you for moral support and to take notes too.It sounds like CAMHS are being supportive which is good.

There is a very good thread about children that are different at home to school.It was a favourite of one of the previous mod here.Others have found it very helpful.I will find it.Karen.

 

Hi, no, A doesn't have an IEP, the old head refused 3 times when I requested he have one, when I had a meeting with the acting head a few weeks ago, the SEN support was in there making notes, the accting head seemed unaware he had a DX despite her attending the beginning of the meeting we had in September. The SEN support said he didn't warrant an IEP because he needed to be more than 3 years behind in his education to qualify!! PP rung the LEA about this and the school wrongly informed me. Doesn't surprise me TBH, I think they were just trying to fobe me off so I would drop it and now thay have a multi agency meeting to take part in! They weren't happy about it when it was booked, aparrantly LOL, PP made all the calls and made sure everyone could attend for the given date, school don't seem to like me talking to PP. He's not on SA or S+ but a few of the professionals think he should be on one of them. LASC is Language And Social Communication Service, they give home and/or school support to deal with behaviour issues with ASD children, their aim is to find strategies to lessen stress and in turn lessen the behaviour that is a result of stress, they have been really helpful and are very highly trained in ASD's.

 

BEST haven't had much involvement because the lady I was designated ended up in hospital quite ill so the school nurse took over some of the things they were wanting to do, I have to say too that normally you have either BEST or LASC, not both so it's unusual I have been given the oppertunity to have both involved, lie you say, it's telling ;) My OH and PP are coming to the meeting, he's very good at speaking up when I can't seem to get a word in because I won't interrupt and he will, so he makes sure things are said if I haven't managed to get my point across. PP will be taking notes too.

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Sally44, thanks for that, I will reply later as I have to go out now, didn't want you thinking I ignored your post.

 

Karen.A, thanks for the links, I will look at them when I get in later ;)

 

Thanks everyone for your replies, it's been really helpful :)

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LASC is a new one on me!! They should recognise straight away the importance of an accurate picture of your son's language and communication skills. Not sure where SALT and LASC meet or cross over?? Could LASC support your request for further assessments by SALT due to behavioural problems which could be down to language and communication problems typical of a diagnosis of an ASD?? I think it is reasonable to ask SALT to assess your son again thoroughly to rule that in or out. If he has severe comprehension or receptive speech difficulties that is going to be a major player in his difficulties in the classroom.

No you don't need to wait until your child is 3 years behind before you get SEN support through School Action or School Action Plus. (And anyway, how do you define that?? ie. 3 years behind what?? What is the baseline assessment, the cognitive assessment). His diagnosis means he will always have difficulties with certain things, that is how he got that diagnosis.

Sounds like you are getting things together. Hope it all goes well at the meeting.

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Thanks, I have no idea what their definitions are of behind, I assumed they meant behind what the rest of his class at his age are supposed to be at, but because they've avoided my questions by things like "this is what he's working on/towards" "he's meeting targets" What targets though I have no idea! They could be above or below average but they didn't tell me.

I don't know if LASC deal with things SALT would normally deal with, but they are more specialised in ASD where SALT can be for any kind of speech problem not just ASD related. His last SALT assessment, he was really badly behaved, hding under the chair, trying to get out of the room, kicking, punching and swearing at me and completely un-cooperative. She completed the assessment in school in a room on his own. I re-read the letter earlier, now, bear in mind CAMHS said he has "quite significant social and communication difficulties" SALT said;

he is presenting with subtle social communication difficulties and has specific difficulties understanding the perspective of others (not sure if that's a contradiction though) During conversations he has the tendency to make statements about himself and doesn't seek information from others.

His topic maintainance issues also affect the "flow" of conversation and may be perceived as lack of interest by his conversation partner.

His poor understanding of perspective and of the consequences of his own actions may also be an issue and may prevent positive behavioural changes,

 

She said she feels that SALT intervention is not indicated and would have minimal impact, that he will benefit mostly from a holistic approach to his management and especially support at home for his behavioural issues. He is functioning well in school and they have reported no immediate concerns (that doesn't surprise me)

 

For attention, listening and co-operation, She noted he was quite active, constantly moving around the room and ended up on the floor to play their games. poor listening skills, especially when engaged in an activity and a question was asked, he either ignored completely or answered inappropriately (this indicates to me that he doesn't understand what was asked) He needed the question repeated to gain his attention for him to answer correctly.

It was difficult to disengage him from a self-chosen activity and was nearly impossible for her to change the rules he had made. Took 5 firm instructions fo rher to be able to keep a counter.

 

For social communication skills she noted that he interacted well but his strategy was to give information rather than seeking by asking questions, he didn't ask any questions during the session and had difficulty whrn asked "what question would you ask your teacher if the work was too hard?" (explains why he does little work and gets upset, he doesn't ask for help!!)

He had topic maintainance issues, tended to interrupt her questions with his chosen topics.

 

Understanding of language, he demonstrated good understanding of language and coped well with the activities designed to assess this He also coped well discussing emotions, he recognised expressions from pictures and explained them, but strugled with proud (to be fair the pictured are very clear, angry, sad, happy etc, recognising a picture is easier than on someone's face!) He had specific difficulties understanding the perspective of others and found it difficult to imagine he was on someone elses situation, his awareness of his own behaviour is poor.

No problems with the other parts of the assessment, yet he did when he had the ADOS done, I guess sometimes he copes better than others and depends on his mood on the day!

SChool have a copy of this, but all the SENCO said to me was that they'd discharged him, and smirked (so he must be OK in other words)

I think I will ask for a re-assessment on certain areas because like I say, he does take things far too literally and this is becoming far more noticable now.

 

I will get to replying to your other post now LOL, there's a lot to reply to! :D

 

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Hi Donna,

I can sympathise, as my son is 7 and went into meltdown as soon as he went to Class 2. I think this was due to a number of things but bullying was the main problem, and the seating arrangements. Is he being bullied? Ask around, he won't necessarily tell you you know.

As regards homework, then your son is exhibiting completely normal behaviour for an Aspergers child. I have found with my 7 year old that a lot of the homework can be done when out walking or whatever. I bought the Letts KS1 books science , English and maths from the school and a lot of it can be done without sitting down - just chatting about the different subjects like verbs, syllables and nouns, can be taught without it seeming to be homework.

Look at what they are supposed be learning from the books and talk to them about it rather than sit them down to stare at a book. I found with my son there is only one time that he will do any written homework and that is in bed, and I say to him stop when you like, and if he knows he can stop when he likes it gives him back control. Buy yourself the book called 'The Complete Guide to Aspergers Syndrome by Tony Attwood, it will explain here why children with Aspergers hate homework. Also only do it for a few minutes at a time. Learning about time and money are very difficult and I dont think these subjects should be mixed up with maths. I found also that the homework papers my son was given was too 'busy' - if for instance there are several sums on one page then block off with a sheet of paper the rest of the sums and just concentrate on the one sum, you may find his eyes are busy looking at the whole page and not just the one sum. use blocks of wood to count and subtract, he may be very visual.

Goos luck,

C.

 

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For attention, listening and co-operation, She noted he was quite active, constantly moving around the room and ended up on the floor to play their games. poor listening skills, especially when engaged in an activity and a question was asked, he either ignored completely or answered inappropriately (this indicates to me that he doesn't understand what was asked) He needed the question repeated to gain his attention for him to answer correctly.

It was difficult to disengage him from a self-chosen activity and was nearly impossible for her to change the rules he had made. Took 5 firm instructions fo rher to be able to keep a counter.

 

From the above in the SALT report, how is your son supposed to listen and pay attention to classroom instructions and learning through auditory only means? And yes, my son used to give totally different answers to the questions asked. Difficulties with transitions and leaving anything before it is finished or complete is typical too. I think if you ask for a re-assessment by SALT you need to write in and ask for someone with specific experience and training in the language and communication/Social interaction difficulties typical of those with ASDs.

 

You also mentioned he could identify emotions. But that was by using pictures. That is how you reinforce language, through pictures or other visual means. That is how most children with ASD have their learning reinforced. Would he have been able to identify emotions from the therapists facial features, tone of voice etc?

 

Speak with LASC and see if they would write to the SALT Department themselves? Or ask them if they will support you in writing to the SALT department.

 

I would also directly ask SALT why she feels that input from their department would have minimal effect for your son with a diagnosis of ASD. That is totally the opposite of what the advice is for children with ASDs. What is recommended is very specific SALT programmes targeting areas of difficulty. The child may never fully understand the reasoning behind the language, but they need to learn communication and social skills if they are to function and have some success in the real world. In some cases these may be rote learnt scripts that the child learns to use in certain situations. Once they have been learnt, the child will then become more independent and successful with social interaction. For example, a child that doesn't know how to initiate play may be taught to say 'lets play XXX', or 'Can I play with you', or 'shall we play a war game', etc. Although it is rote learnt, it is a conversation opener, and children who are able to cope in mainstream school are usually able enough to use these types of scripts to gain them access to social interaction. Without those learnt phrases they would not interact at all. Also google SCERTS. This is an ongoing social interaction assessment tool specifically to be used by all professionals involved with children with ASDs. And it is put into place by the SALT! Does the SALT department within your LEA pass on all ASD cases to LASC? If not they should be meeting the needs of these children.

 

Whatever ways they use to determine whether a child needs support you need to (a) check it is correct through PP or the NAS and (B) any kind of measurement of ability has to take into consideration (i) the cognitive ability of the child, and (ii) what is the baseline assessment from which we start to measure improvement? If you have a child with average cogntiive ability, and they only make one years academic progress in three years, then you know that something is hindering their access to learning. If the child is way below average cognitive ability then that same level of progress might be typical for them. If they don't have IEPs/MEPs for your son how are they measuring his progress, or setting targets? Is it just through the yearly school report?

 

It is perfectly possible for a child with Aspergers to be a genius, yet because they are not supported so that they can achieve to that level, they would only progress at an average rate. But a child in that situation would be seriously underachieving. I am not suggesting that is the case with your son, but I think you understand what I am getting at.

 

 

 

 

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Myself and OH will be sorting out some kind of action plan before the meeting and will be going in armed with plenty of notes etc. I plan on showing LASC all the most important letters I have from CAMHS, SALT and paediatrician, I also, strangely found a letter about a meeting to review A's IEP, yet he's never had an IEP!!!

 

I know LASC, CAMHS, paediatrician, school nurse and HV all have plenty of written detail about the behaviour difficulties and have seen them first hand too. I am trying to gather evidence, I know the professionals can't force their way in, but the school nurse is regularly there and can pop in to see him if she gets a chance and LASC usually go to his class at the end of the day about ten miins before the bell, she said they're not very welcoming (says a lot!) School also say the same as yours, that they are coping well etc. (doesn't seem to matter that he isn't though!)

 

the inferrence thing, the SALT report says that was OK, but it doesn't say anywhere about him reading anything :unsure: So I think this needs re-assessing. I will try and get him to read a few things to me and see if he can explain. He has a project to do too that we've not started yet, that won't be easy! I will do the googling shortly on the things you mentioned and see what it says. I have made a note of what the SALT should be assessing, thanks for that!

 

 

I do not know what his cognitive ability is, mainly because they avoid answering these kind of questions, but I do want to find out, he probably doesn't understand the point of homework, like you suggested! Also, he sees school and home as seperate and can't see why he needs to do what he classes as school work at home, even though it's called homework :blink:

 

I know LASC for one wouldn't mind putting in writing that it's common for ASD children to behave at home and hold the tension in all day then let it out once they have left the school, she told me most of her surrent caseload are the same, so it's not a singled out occurance that A does this. Funnily enough, when I last spoke to LASC I mentioned that if it were them having to deal with A and he was fine for me then they would be screaming out for all the help they could get and really wouldn't appreciate it if my attitude was the same as theirs towards me.

 

I have taken on board your advice about private reports and everythin in writing etc, I appreciate it, I am really hoping that things will be agreed and actually acted upon this time, not brushed under the carpet again, as through their lack of understanding and not ackowledging his DX they have found themselves having to have this next meeting which I know they're not happy about - well, tough, I want what my son deserves and I won't stop until he gets it, so maybe this will make them realise as they have fobbed me off and not done things in the past and I still haven't dropped it as I am sure they want me to do!

 

And you're right, we are going into school because it's a problem there and most certainly not a parental control problem, although they have fobbed me off with that before now too! My answer back was that why aren't my girls the same if it's bad parenting on my behalf? ;)

 

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Connieruff, thank you for the suggestion of that book, I have hear about Tony Attwood before and his books, the only reason I haven't bought them before is that his DX was autism, but I do know he has a lot of AS traits! He's like a mixture of the two. It sounds like it will come in handy about the homework issue, so will be worth me investing in, also I might just shove it under his ignorant teacher's nose!! :o:D

 

And yes, A is very visual so counting blocks etc would come in handy :D

 

It sounds like you have worked hard finding ways to do the homework with your son. We couldn't do it at bedtime, partly because he has a cabin bed so would make things a little awkward, we have tried breaking his homework so he does a small amount each night but he gets so stressed about it and I get fed up being kicked and sworn at all the time so I do give up some nights, it's just not worth it. I have noticed he starts looking really confused if there's a lot on his maths papers, sometimes there's a lot of drawings as well as numbers and I think it's just too much to look at.

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Hi, no, A doesn't have an IEP, the old head refused 3 times when I requested he have one, when I had a meeting with the acting head a few weeks ago, the SEN support was in there making notes, the accting head seemed unaware he had a DX despite her attending the beginning of the meeting we had in September. The SEN support said he didn't warrant an IEP because he needed to be more than 3 years behind in his education to qualify!! PP rung the LEA about this and the school wrongly informed me. Doesn't surprise me TBH, I think they were just trying to fobe me off so I would drop it and now thay have a multi agency meeting to take part in! They weren't happy about it when it was booked, aparrantly LOL, PP made all the calls and made sure everyone could attend for the given date, school don't seem to like me talking to PP. He's not on SA or S+ but a few of the professionals think he should be on one of them. LASC is Language And Social Communication Service, they give home and/or school support to deal with behaviour issues with ASD children, their aim is to find strategies to lessen stress and in turn lessen the behaviour that is a result of stress, they have been really helpful and are very highly trained in ASD's.

 

BEST haven't had much involvement because the lady I was designated ended up in hospital quite ill so the school nurse took over some of the things they were wanting to do, I have to say too that normally you have either BEST or LASC, not both so it's unusual I have been given the oppertunity to have both involved, lie you say, it's telling ;) My OH and PP are coming to the meeting, he's very good at speaking up when I can't seem to get a word in because I won't interrupt and he will, so he makes sure things are said if I haven't managed to get my point across. PP will be taking notes too.

 

Hi.I think it would be worth pushing very hard to get you child documented on the SEN register.If so many outside agencies are involved it should be at School Action plus.If a child is on the SEN registered the school have to produce an IEP.

If you apply for a Statutary Assessment and the school has no IEP then they will have no evidence to support your request.The whole process is likely to be delayed until they can demonstrate that they have done what they should have done [probably two sets of IEPs ].

It is completely untrue that a child has to be 3 years behind to warrent an IEP.

It sounds like LASC is the equivalent of Autism outreach in my area.It would be worth asking them to support your request for improved input in school.

It is very telling that BEST and LASC involved.At least as I said some people are aware of the difficulties even if school are in denial. :rolleyes: Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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LASC is a new one on me!! They should recognise straight away the importance of an accurate picture of your son's language and communication skills. Not sure where SALT and LASC meet or cross over?? Could LASC support your request for further assessments by SALT due to behavioural problems which could be down to language and communication problems typical of a diagnosis of an ASD?? I think it is reasonable to ask SALT to assess your son again thoroughly to rule that in or out. If he has severe comprehension or receptive speech difficulties that is going to be a major player in his difficulties in the classroom.

No you don't need to wait until your child is 3 years behind before you get SEN support through School Action or School Action Plus. (And anyway, how do you define that?? ie. 3 years behind what?? What is the baseline assessment, the cognitive assessment). His diagnosis means he will always have difficulties with certain things, that is how he got that diagnosis.

Sounds like you are getting things together. Hope it all goes well at the meeting.

 

In my area SALT and ASD outreach [LASC equivalent] are part of the same team.ASD outreach are extremely well qualified specialist professionals who work in mainstream schools and support parents,the child and school staff..They are the specialists in the area of ASD .The LASC are likely to be specialist teachers with as much knowledge of ASD as a SALT .The specialist teachers who work for Autism outreach in my area have more experience and understanding of school issues than the SALT to be honest.

The LASC may be a bit miffed if it is suggested that they need to request advice from a SALT.They certainly won't take well to a lecture regarding what is typical of ASD. :) Karen.

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In my area SALT and ASD outreach [LASC equivalent] are part of the same team.ASD outreach are extremely well qualified specialist professionals who work in mainstream schools and support parents,the child and school staff..They are the specialists in the area of ASD .The LASC are likely to be specialist teachers with as much knowledge of ASD as a SALT .The specialist teachers who work for Autism outreach in my area have more experience and understanding of school issues than the SALT to be honest.

The LASC may be a bit miffed if it is suggested that they need to request advice from a SALT.They certainly won't take well to a lecture regarding what is typical of ASD. :) Karen.

 

Can LASC assess for language and social communication/comprehension skills etc and put together a programme to be carried out in school?

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Thanks, I have no idea what their definitions are of behind, I assumed they meant behind what the rest of his class at his age are supposed to be at, but because they've avoided my questions by things like "this is what he's working on/towards" "he's meeting targets" What targets though I have no idea! They could be above or below average but they didn't tell me.

I don't know if LASC deal with things SALT would normally deal with, but they are more specialised in ASD where SALT can be for any kind of speech problem not just ASD related. His last SALT assessment, he was really badly behaved, hding under the chair, trying to get out of the room, kicking, punching and swearing at me and completely un-cooperative. She completed the assessment in school in a room on his own. I re-read the letter earlier, now, bear in mind CAMHS said he has "quite significant social and communication difficulties" SALT said;

he is presenting with subtle social communication difficulties and has specific difficulties understanding the perspective of others (not sure if that's a contradiction though) During conversations he has the tendency to make statements about himself and doesn't seek information from others.

His topic maintainance issues also affect the "flow" of conversation and may be perceived as lack of interest by his conversation partner.

His poor understanding of perspective and of the consequences of his own actions may also be an issue and may prevent positive behavioural changes,

 

She said she feels that SALT intervention is not indicated and would have minimal impact, that he will benefit mostly from a holistic approach to his management and especially support at home for his behavioural issues. He is functioning well in school and they have reported no immediate concerns (that doesn't surprise me)

 

For attention, listening and co-operation, She noted he was quite active, constantly moving around the room and ended up on the floor to play their games. poor listening skills, especially when engaged in an activity and a question was asked, he either ignored completely or answered inappropriately (this indicates to me that he doesn't understand what was asked) He needed the question repeated to gain his attention for him to answer correctly.

It was difficult to disengage him from a self-chosen activity and was nearly impossible for her to change the rules he had made. Took 5 firm instructions fo rher to be able to keep a counter.

 

For social communication skills she noted that he interacted well but his strategy was to give information rather than seeking by asking questions, he didn't ask any questions during the session and had difficulty whrn asked "what question would you ask your teacher if the work was too hard?" (explains why he does little work and gets upset, he doesn't ask for help!!)

He had topic maintainance issues, tended to interrupt her questions with his chosen topics.

 

Understanding of language, he demonstrated good understanding of language and coped well with the activities designed to assess this He also coped well discussing emotions, he recognised expressions from pictures and explained them, but strugled with proud (to be fair the pictured are very clear, angry, sad, happy etc, recognising a picture is easier than on someone's face!) He had specific difficulties understanding the perspective of others and found it difficult to imagine he was on someone elses situation, his awareness of his own behaviour is poor.

No problems with the other parts of the assessment, yet he did when he had the ADOS done, I guess sometimes he copes better than others and depends on his mood on the day!

SChool have a copy of this, but all the SENCO said to me was that they'd discharged him, and smirked (so he must be OK in other words)

I think I will ask for a re-assessment on certain areas because like I say, he does take things far too literally and this is becoming far more noticable now.

 

I will get to replying to your other post now LOL, there's a lot to reply D

 

 

The SALT may not be an ASD specialist which is worth bearing in mind.A SALT saw Ben weekly for 18 months due to dysfluency [stammer] when he was age 3-4.She never noticed that he had Social Communication Difficulties.

 

Who did the ADOS ? If a CAMHS psychiatrist who has specialist knowledge in ASD is supporting you and an ADOS has been done by them then it may well be worth asking them if they think another SALT assessment would provide useful information.There might be an ASD specialist SALT in your area who could do an assessment.However if a CAMHS psychiatrist is invloved and LASC are involved already and you have a diagnosis then the SALT input may not be that important.I think it is worth talking to the CAMHS psychiatrist.It may well be a professional decision regarding whether to request an opinion from the SALT.

It does sound as though CAMHS are being supportive which is good.Karen.

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Can LASC assess for language and social communication/comprehension skills etc and put together a programme to be carried out in school?

 

In my area that is what ASD outreach do.....it is the whole point of the job.

To ask if ASD outreach if they can put together a programme for Social Communication Difficulties to be carried out in school would be like asking a dentist if he does teeth. :D

The SALT is not really involved in school for children who have Social Communication Difficulties but who have an AS diagnosis.

One of the previous ASD outreach teachers is now running an independent school for teenagers with AS.So they are very well qualified.They do as I say work alongside the SALT but the SALT is more involved with the ADOS and assessment.

However I do not know if ASD outreach and LASC do exactly the same job so cannot say absolutely that they can.

ASD outreach is I think a service that is provided in many parts of the country.It is well known on the Forum.

As I have suggested in my previous post it is very likely that the CAMHS psychiatrist is the person with the most idea of whether a specialist SALT assessment is needed.If they think one is required then they can reffer.Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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Myself and OH will be sorting out some kind of action plan before the meeting and will be going in armed with plenty of notes etc. I plan on showing LASC all the most important letters I have from CAMHS, SALT and paediatrician, I also, strangely found a letter about a meeting to review A's IEP, yet he's never had an IEP!!!

 

I know LASC, CAMHS, paediatrician, school nurse and HV all have plenty of written detail about the behaviour difficulties and have seen them first hand too. I am trying to gather evidence, I know the professionals can't force their way in, but the school nurse is regularly there and can pop in to see him if she gets a chance and LASC usually go to his class at the end of the day about ten miins before the bell, she said they're not very welcoming (says a lot!) School also say the same as yours, that they are coping well etc. (doesn't seem to matter that he isn't though!)

 

homework :blink:

 

Hi.A very personal opinion based on hard gained experience.If you do want your child to remain in the school it is worth thinking about how to push school without alienating yourself.

We have ended up in the situation where school became defensive and refused to have support from CAMHS who are our main support which is very difficult.

CAMHS cannot even talk to school if the HT decides she does not wish to have talks.

In our case Ben only has a few months in primary school so it is manageable.However as you say even professionals cannot force their way in.Karen.

 

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the inferrence thing, the SALT report says that was OK, but it doesn't say anywhere about him reading anything :unsure: So I think this needs re-assessing. I will try and get him to read a few things to me and see if he can explain. He has a project to do too that we've not started yet, that won't be easy! I will do the googling shortly on the things you mentioned and see what it says. I have made a note of what the SALT should be assessing, thanks for that!

 

 

I do not know what his cognitive ability is, mainly because they avoid answering these kind of questions, but I do want to find out, he probably doesn't understand the point of homework, like you suggested! Also, he sees school and home as seperate and can't see why he needs to do what he classes as school work at home, even though it's called homework :blink:

 

Hi again.Reading ,comprehension and cognitive ability are things that would come under the remit of the Educational Psychologist.I would think they will do assessments if you are requesting Statutary Assessment.Karen.

 

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And you're right, we are going into school because it's a problem there and most certainly not a parental control problem, although they have fobbed me off with that before now too! My answer back was that why aren't my girls the same if it's bad parenting on my behalf?

 

We were in the situation of one of our sons being the best behaved child in the school and the other the most challenging.....I was always tempted to say ''Please refer to the one we parented earlier'' :devil::D Karen.

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Hi.A very personal opinion based on hard gained experience.If you do want your child to remain in the school it is worth thinking about how to push school without alienating yourself.

We have ended up in the situation where school became defensive and refused to have support from CAMHS who are our main support which is very difficult.

CAMHS cannot even talk to school if the HT decides she does not wish to have talks.

In our case Ben only has a few months in primary school so it is manageable.However as you say even professionals cannot force their way in.Karen.

 

 

Yes if the Head or school is not going to listen to you there is little you can do, you can't force them to. Some mainstream are brilliant at caring for all children regardless of any SEN they have but some other schools seem to only care that they look good on the SATS/school performance tables and SEN children tend to get in the way off that.

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In my area that is what ASD outreach do.....it is the whole point of the job.

To ask if ASD outreach if they can put together a programme for Social Communication Difficulties to be carried out in school would be like asking a dentist if he does teeth. :D

The SALT is not really involved in school for children who have Social Communication Difficulties but who have an AS diagnosis.

One of the previous ASD outreach teachers is now running an independent school for teenagers with AS.So they are very well qualified.They do as I say work alongside the SALT but the SALT is more involved with the ADOS and assessment.

However I do not know if ASD outreach and LASC do exactly the same job so cannot say absolutely that they can.

ASD outreach is I think a service that is provided in many parts of the country.It is well known on the Forum.

As I have suggested in my previous post it is very likely that the CAMHS psychiatrist is the person with the most idea of whether a specialist SALT assessment is needed.If they think one is required then they can reffer.Karen.

 

In our area it is totally different. The Autism Outreach Teacher gives advice to school on how to use things like visual timetables etc. But she works alone and has over 200 children on her books, so in reality she can only offer around one days input per year per child. For many children with an ASD trying to get supported in mainstream that just doesn't even scratch the surface. Plus alot of schools just don't like being shown or told that they need to do things differently, or present it in a different way. The attitude seems to be that the children that can 'fit in' stay and those that can't leave. And although no school is allowed to refuse a child being in their school, they do make it just do damn hard and resist any and everything that most parents decide that the school's attitude is just not worth fighting against.

 

The SALT's remit is to assess all aspects of speech and language communication. This also involves social interaction and anybehaviour resulting from difficulties relating to language or social interaction/understanding. However, the SALT you get does not have to have had any training with ASDs. But if you request a SALT with experience of ASDs you usually get one - you just have to ask for it. My son's current SALT is also trained as a special need teacher as well as a SALT and therefore she has lots of knowledge about ASDs.

 

The Ed Psych in our area deals with learning issues and how to present work differently in class, or come up with ways to help improve certain skills. Unless it is sensory based in which case you ask for a referal to OT, then wait for 2 years.

 

I just thought, from the above post, that if the child is copying the children in the class he may not be listening and processing what the teacher is saying, otherwise he wouldn't need to copy. If his understanding or processing is so severe that he has to copy the other children he will have no understanding of what he is doing as he is just following the other children. That is also very stressful and tiring to be having to do that for any length of time throughout the day. My son also used to do that and it was very obvious ie. he did everything about 5-10 seconds after everyone else. I was told that his ability to do this was a positive - which in some aspects it is. However it is a very clear demonstration that a child intelligent enough to use these copying strategies actually needs things presenting and reinforcing in a visual way so that they understand what they are supposed to do. Otherwise they are not learning they are just copying, and not learning how to use systems to become independent in his learning. A child with this type of difficulties may need to move to small group work, if whole class environments are difficult for him to follow. He would probably benefit from a TA checking with him that he knows what he should be doing before he begins the task, and for it to be set out visually for him to follow. If another professional can assess for that okay. But it is important to get the right professional assessing the relevant skills they were trained to assess otherwise the root cause of the difficulty never gets identified and the wrong supports/structures or even therapies can be used which are totally inappropriate and ineffectual.

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Connieruff, thank you for the suggestion of that book, I have hear about Tony Attwood before and his books, the only reason I haven't bought them before is that his DX was autism, but I do know he has a lot of AS traits! He's like a mixture of the two. It sounds like it will come in handy about the homework issue, so will be worth me investing in, also I might just shove it under his ignorant teacher's nose!! :o:D

 

And yes, A is very visual so counting blocks etc would come in handy :D

 

It sounds like you have worked hard finding ways to do the homework with your son. We couldn't do it at bedtime, partly because he has a cabin bed so would make things a little awkward, we have tried breaking his homework so he does a small amount each night but he gets so stressed about it and I get fed up being kicked and sworn at all the time so I do give up some nights, it's just not worth it. I have noticed he starts looking really confused if there's a lot on his maths papers, sometimes there's a lot of drawings as well as numbers and I think it's just too much to look at.

 

 

One of the Tony Attwood books (think its the complete guide) has a bit about homework in it and strategies. He says something like how homework is confusing for them as they have done schoolwork all day and are tired from the extra effort that it takes just to get through the day. Then at home were they should be able to relax comes more schoolwork. Its like there is no escape no haven. Then as well the added problem is that they may not have written it down properly, may not fully understand what they are supposed to be doing, may not have picked up the way to do it in the classroom setting due to all the things they find distracting. One of his suggestions is to make sure they work at it if you can for 30 mins and then write in their book or whatever that they have worked hard at this for 30 mins and this is the best that they could do and you do not expect or want him to be punished for it as a child without his difficulties would not have been expected to work longer than that at his age. Tell them if they have a problem with that then to help him more in class with his work you are his parent not his teacher.

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I've been onto the IPSEA website and have pasted a case law statement about Speech Therapy. I am concerned that the right professional needs to assess and for their findings to be in part 2 of a statement for recommendations to be in part 3. I don't know what the legal responsibility or training is for any other professional or organisation if their remit is also in the same area as SALT, especially if those involved are not qualified SALTs themselves. It may have an impact on the Statement and the provision you are able to get in it if the SALT has not made recommendations and LASC has, for example. So I would recommend you check this with IPSEA and the NAS.

 

R vs Lancashire County Council ex parte M (1989)

 

 

 

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In this case, known as the ‘Lancashire judgement’, M had a statement which specified speech therapy provision under part 3 as ‘special educational provision’. When that provision was not made, the LEA claimed that they had made a clerical error when writing the statement and that speech therapy must always be ‘non-educational provision’ on the grounds that speech therapists are employed by health authorities.

 

M’s parents challenged this interpretation of the law by seeking judicial review and were successful, in that the court ruled that speech therapy could be either a medical provision or an educational provision, depending on the nature of the child’s needs for the therapy; and, that the question of who employed the therapists was irrelevant to this decision.

 

The LEA appealed against this judgement, but it was upheld by the court of appeal.

 

The judgement included this comment, which is still the only guidance parents have as to whether their child’s needs for any kind of therapy is ‘medical’ or ‘educational’:

 

“To teach an adult who has lost his larynx because of cancer might be considered as treatment rather than education. But to teach a child who has never been able to communicate by language, whether because of some chromosomal disorder ... or because of social cause ... seems to us just as much educational provision as to teach a child to communicate in writing.”

Many LEAs still tell parents that speech therapy belongs under the heading ‘non-educational provision’ (i.e. part 6 of a statement, where no-one has a strict legal duty to provide it). They still tell parents that this is because speech therapists are employed by health authorities. However, the Lancashire judgement specifically rejected this argument. It is the child’s need for therapy which is of key importance. The main task for parents is to argue that their child’s need for speech therapy is ‘educational’ rather than ‘medical’.

 

All you have to go on is the judge’s comment above, drawing the distinction between a need for speech therapy following surgery on your larynx (medical) and the need for speech therapy due to chromosomal disorder or social cause (educational).

 

Obviously, under this distinction, the majority of children with special educational needs have speech therapy needs which are ‘educational’ and which therefore should be set out in part 2 of a statement. All Down’s Syndrome children, for example, have an ‘educational’, not ‘medical’, need for speech therapy, according to the distinction made in the Lancashire judgement.

 

Many LEAs openly disregard the Lancashire judgement. Why? Because once the need for speech therapy is accepted as ‘educational’, it must be set out under part 2 of the statement as one of the child's ‘special educational needs’. And, once the need is set out under part 2, then according to ex parts E, the speech therapy provision must be specified under part 3, so that the ultimate responsibility for making the provision then rests with the LEA. They may ask the health service to provide the therapists but, if that isn’t possible, the LEA themselves must make the arrangements needed and cover the cost.

 

The message for parents is: ‘Get your child’s need for speech therapy written into part 2, as a special educational need, and the rest should follow’.

 

Although there is no equivalent to the Lancashire judgement covering other therapies (e.g. occupational therapy), the same argument has been used successfully by parents wanting to make their child’s occupational therapy secure. That is, by arguing that the need for occupational therapy is educational rather than medical, they get the need written into part 2 of the statement. The provision to meet that need must then be specified under part 3, which guarantees the help, as the LEA is ultimately responsible for making the ‘special educational provision’.

 

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In our area it is totally different. The Autism Outreach Teacher gives advice to school on how to use things like visual timetables etc. But she works alone and has over 200 children on her books, so in reality she can only offer around one days input per year per child. For many children with an ASD trying to get supported in mainstream that just doesn't even scratch the surface. Plus alot of schools just don't like being shown or told that they need to do things differently, or present it in a different way. The attitude seems to be that the children that can 'fit in' stay and those that can't leave. And although no school is allowed to refuse a child being in their school, they do make it just do damn hard and resist any and everything that most parents decide that the school's attitude is just not worth fighting against.

 

The SALT's remit is to assess all aspects of speech and language communication. This also involves social interaction and anybehaviour resulting from difficulties relating to language or social interaction/understanding. However, the SALT you get does not have to have had any training with ASDs. But if you request a SALT with experience of ASDs you usually get one - you just have to ask for it. My son's current SALT is also trained as a special need teacher as well as a SALT and therefore she has lots of knowledge about ASDs.

 

The Ed Psych in our area deals with learning issues and how to present work differently in class, or come up with ways to help improve certain skills. Unless it is sensory based in which case you ask for a referal to OT, then wait for 2 years.

 

I just thought, from the above post, that if the child is copying the children in the class he may not be listening and processing what the teacher is saying, otherwise he wouldn't need to copy. If his understanding or processing is so severe that he has to copy the other children he will have no understanding of what he is doing as he is just following the other children. That is also very stressful and tiring to be having to do that for any length of time throughout the day. My son also used to do that and it was very obvious ie. he did everything about 5-10 seconds after everyone else. I was told that his ability to do this was a positive - which in some aspects it is. However it is a very clear demonstration that a child intelligent enough to use these copying strategies actually needs things presenting and reinforcing in a visual way so that they understand what they are supposed to do. Otherwise they are not learning they are just copying, and not learning how to use systems to become independent in his learning. A child with this type of difficulties may need to move to small group work, if whole class environments are difficult for him to follow. He would probably benefit from a TA checking with him that he knows what he should be doing before he begins the task, and for it to be set out visually for him to follow. If another professional can assess for that okay. But it is important to get the right professional assessing the relevant skills they were trained to assess otherwise the root cause of the difficulty never gets identified and the wrong supports/structures or even therapies can be used which are totally inappropriate and ineffectual.

 

Yes.It sounds like ASD outreach are much less actively involved in your area.Ben's Statement includes fortnightly input from an ASD outreach teacher.She provides one to one work and support for the school.

EPs are involved very little in our area once STAT assessment is completed.They review progress yearly and attend the annual review but apart from that they do not do any direct work.

The SALT who is an ASD specialist works in the local ASD specialist school.She works alongside the ASD outreach teachers.However as the SALT has a caseload of all of the children at the ASD school plus doing the ADOS for some children the SALT has little time to spend in mainstream.I do not think in practice that the specialist teacher is any less skilled in supporting children in mainstream than the SALT.In fact as far as school issues are concerened I think there is something to be said for having a teacher supporting school.Most of the issues Ben has are to do with difficulties with changes in routine or with people not following rules the way he expects.

Outreach Teachers are also experts when it comes to things like Social Stories and Visual Timetables.All they do is support children in mainstream schools and so they develop an awful lot of experience.Karen.

 

 

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Yes.It sounds like ASD outreach are much less actively involved in your area.Ben's Statement includes fortnightly input from an ASD outreach teacher.She provides one to one work and support for the school.

EPs are involved very little in our area once STAT assessment is completed.They review progress yearly and attend the annual review but apart from that they do not do any direct work.

The SALT who is an ASD specialist works in the local ASD specialist school.She works alongside the ASD outreach teachers.However as the SALT has a caseload of all of the children at the ASD school plus doing the ADOS for some children the SALT has little time to spend in mainstream.I do not think in practice that the specialist teacher is any less skilled in supporting children in mainstream than the SALT.In fact as far as school issues are concerened I think there is something to be said for having a teacher supporting school.Most of the issues Ben has are to do with difficulties with changes in routine or with people not following rules the way he expects.

Outreach Teachers are also experts when it comes to things like Social Stories and Visual Timetables.All they do is support children in mainstream schools and so they develop an awful lot of experience.Karen.

 

 

I am just concerned, that knowing what I experienced with my LEA, that if there is any chance that the LEA can get out of providing support because they have a get out clause that 'the LASC have advised certain supports, but that that is not their area of clinical expertise', that the LEA will use this to deny that support from being put into any Statement. I don't know for definite that that is the case. But I think it is worth checking. In my case the AAT teacher said something similar to me about OT. She told me that she had been sent on a training course regarding sensory issues so that she could advise schools on how to support a child with sensory needs, however she was not qualified as an OT and therefore was unable to include those types of recommendations in any report that she made towards a SA for a Statement. So a parent might think the AAT can make those recommendations in her report, when she had advised me that she definately could not and that if a parent wanted any input from OT included in their Statement that they parent would need to have had their child assessed by an OT and for them to have made a report. And when I was pushing for my son to be seen by OT I was told then by both the OT department and the LEA that the AAT had training in sensory issues (as my son has a diagnosis of SID), but I knew that eventhough she could advise school, that school were resistant to anything being suggested to them, and the AAT did not put anything in her report about my sons sensory issues apart from acknowledge the fact that he did have substantial sensory issues which impacted on his ability to access the curriculum.

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I am just concerned, that knowing what I experienced with my LEA, that if there is any chance that the LEA can get out of providing support because they have a get out clause that 'the LASC have advised certain supports, but that that is not their area of clinical expertise', that the LEA will use this to deny that support from being put into any Statement. I don't know for definite that that is the case. But I think it is worth checking. In my case the AAT teacher said something similar to me about OT. She told me that she had been sent on a training course regarding sensory issues so that she could advise schools on how to support a child with sensory needs, however she was not qualified as an OT and therefore was unable to include those types of recommendations in any report that she made towards a SA for a Statement. So a parent might think the AAT can make those recommendations in her report, when she had advised me that she definately could not and that if a parent wanted any input from OT included in their Statement that they parent would need to have had their child assessed by an OT and for them to have made a report. And when I was pushing for my son to be seen by OT I was told then by both the OT department and the LEA that the AAT had training in sensory issues (as my son has a diagnosis of SID), but I knew that eventhough she could advise school, that school were resistant to anything being suggested to them, and the AAT did not put anything in her report about my sons sensory issues apart from acknowledge the fact that he did have substantial sensory issues which impacted on his ability to access the curriculum.

 

Hi.I think it is worth bearing in mind that Donna does alrady have multiple professionals involved.Although school may be in denial BEST and LASC are involved already.Any request for a Statutary Assessment would need to be supported by those involved already.They will know whether a SALT referal is needed.

In my area any referal for an assessment by a SALT would need to go via the psychiatrist who is involved already.

There are systems in place.

We also had major issues over OT.However the psychiatrist from CAMHS wrote to the OT stating strongly that her input was needed.

OH and myself have a lot of experience of working with multiple professionals across various agencies.At the last count we had worked with seventy different professionals across four different agencies.All of whom have supported Ben in the last three years.

I know that many people do have a difficult time obtaining appropriate provision.However there are some good LAs and some good professionals around.

I think it is worth bearing in mind that Donna does not currently have an IEP or documentation at School Action.

I think the first step may be to engage with the professionals who are currently providing support and to obtain clarification of the difficulties at the meeting in May.

If school do not have an IEP then even a Statutary Assessment is likely to be some way off. :)

If a CAF is being completed then the meeting that is coming up may well be a Multi Professional Meeting where the CAF is discussed.Karen.

K

 

 

 

Edited by Karen A

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