Anyone ever had a 'run in'with another parent at the school gates??

[Karen A]

Hi All.I thought I would just say.The Head Teacher at my son's school has a clear strategy for dealing with parents who decide to attempt to argue about differences.They are excluded from the premises.The child is allowed to attend school but has to be dropped at the school gate.

In this situation the parent is left with little ability to do anything.

Schools are perfectly within their rights to do this.The government actively supports the sanction of people who behave in an antisocial manner on public premisis.

I also know of cases where parents have decided to fight it out in the playground.The school did not hesitate to call the police who arrived very rapidly.

In one case the police ended up attending the school the following morning to ensure the safety of staff and pupils.Puplis had to go straight into school because of the risk to student and staff safety.It was extremely upsetting for everyone.

Perhaps I have a different view to some as I live in an Inner London borough.When it is very possible people could carry weapons or could attack your home or car it is wise to be careful when deciding to fight it out.

Karen.

[Sally44]

Hi Sally.Sorrry to digress a little but your slant on children with ASD does interest me.

I do not think Ben is some helpless soul who needs adult support because he is always the victim because of his Social Communication Difficulties.

To be honest he is more likely to be creating difficulties due to his rigid views and challenging behaviour and because he happens to be a challlenging individual like his mother.

Many children on the Forum have been extremely challenging and I do not believe they have always been challenging due to Social Communication Difficulties.

I am also aware of children with ASD being bullied by other children with ASD.

Karen.

 

 

Adult supervision during playtimes and dinnertimes should be addressing all the social difficulties you mention.

[NobbyNobbs]

schools are also aware of the home situations of some of the children who tend to be pick on other kids and do cut them alot of slack regarding behaviour. I don't think that is a way forward either.

children from disadvantaged home situations need all the help they can get to get past their problems, just like an ASD child.

 

Two children:

N is 8, and is in trouble for repeatedly taking toys off another child in the playground, shouting abusive statements at anyone who tries to get the toy back and hitting a teacher who tried to take the toy out of the childs hand.

 

K is also 8, and is in trouble for doing the exactly the same thing as N.

 

N has AS, and as far as i can tell the general feeling on the board is that he should be excused his behaviours because he has little social understanding and experienced a meltdown when the teacher touched him to take away the toy.

 

K is NT, and as such should be punished for bullying the other child, and hitting the teacher.

but look a bit closer and it emerges that K comes from a very deprived home. he has no toys of his own, anything he is given is sold by his parents for money for drugs. he is often hit, and witnesses extreme violence regularly.

 

K is no more in control of his reaction than N. punishing him wont change his situation, and it certainly wont stop him behaving in that way.

 

schools are classed as 'safe havens' for children, and as such, consideration is taken for ALL difficulties that would be affecting a childs behaviour.

[bid]

Very well said, Nobby!

 

schools are classed as 'safe havens' for children, and as such, consideration is taken for ALL difficulties that would be affecting a childs behaviour.

 

Bid

Edited April 26, 2009 by bid

[baddad]

children from disadvantaged home situations need all the help they can get to get past their problems, just like an ASD child.

 

Two children:

N is 8, and is in trouble for repeatedly taking toys off another child in the playground, shouting abusive statements at anyone who tries to get the toy back and hitting a teacher who tried to take the toy out of the childs hand.

 

K is also 8, and is in trouble for doing the exactly the same thing as N.

 

N has AS, and as far as i can tell the general feeling on the board is that he should be excused his behaviours because he has little social understanding and experienced a meltdown when the teacher touched him to take away the toy.

K is NT, and as such should be punished for bullying the other child, and hitting the teacher.

but look a bit closer and it emerges that K comes from a very deprived home. he has no toys of his own, anything he is given is sold by his parents for money for drugs. he is often hit, and witnesses extreme violence regularly.

 

K is no more in control of his reaction than N. punishing him wont change his situation, and it certainly wont stop him behaving in that way.

 

schools are classed as 'safe havens' for children, and as such, consideration is taken for ALL difficulties that would be affecting a childs behaviour.

 

One other factor - in the bit I've emboldened... not only (it sometimes seems to me) would there be many who would excuse the child with AS's behaviours - they would actually project blame onto the other child and/or the school/staff for allowing a situation to develop that created the 'meltdown'...

In the most simplistic terms, it will always be somebody elses fault.

 

I would add, though, to Nobbynobb's outline, that it does not have to be that extreme for 'K'... it does not take drug addict, abusive or neglectful parents to create the kind of environment that produces a 'K' - it can equally arise from an environment that is over-protective, over-indulgent, under-disciplined and where personal responsibilty/accountability is disregarded. When parents defend a child's bad behaviour - for any reason - the boundaries for the child will be uncertain. That kind of inappropriate defence happens in 'good' homes as well as 'bad' ones, though poverty is almost certainly going to provide an additional negative judgement on how the behaviours are perceived.

 

L&P

 

BD

(who is not commenting on any individual situation, purely responding with general observations to posts made earlier in the topic)

Edited April 26, 2009 by baddad

[Karen A]

Adult supervision during playtimes and dinnertimes should be addressing all the social difficulties you mention.

 

I am sorry I do not regard myself as having social difficulties that need addressing .I can just be a challenging personality.

In excactly the same way Ben and all individuals with ASD have personalities.ASD is part of an individual with ASD it is not the all they are.I am pretty sure Ben would have been challenging if he had never had AS.

If every individual I know that could be difficult or challenging was offered support the list would certainly include OH,many of my friends [some more than others] and most of our psychotherapists....... ,Bid [not just because she has AS] and BD.

 

Sometimes children with ASD just get in trouble.

I know of one young man with AS who is frequently in trouble at secondary school.He was known to be in trouble at primary school too.I know his mum actively supports him regarding his Social Communication Difficulties.However I am certain she thinks her son would be a challenge whether he had AS or not.

Karen.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

HI BD,

 

But schools are also aware of the home situations of some of the children who tend to be pick on other kids and do cut them alot of slack regarding behaviour..

 

I have heard plenty of complaints from parents of NT children who use the same argument about children with AS.They say things like ''How come Johnny can get away with ......because he is autistic but nobody does anything''.

Incidently I spent two years listening to people gossip about Ben's ''home situation'' and how he was the way he was because of me.

It is not nice and I can assure it is gossip that is all it is.People know very little.Karen.

 

[baddad]

If every individual I know that could be difficult or challenging was offered support the list would certainly include OH,many of my friends [some more than others] and most of our psychotherapists....... ,Bid [not just because she has AS] and BD.

 

 

surely, you jest?

 

Having said that, though (and not offered as a 'defence', just an observation) surely that 'challenging' is purely subjective? I'm sure the church/charity organisations often found Mother Theresa 'challenging', and certainly the majority of american voters in the early 60's found Martin Luther King 'challenging'...

Of course, I'm not claiming any such moral high ground for myself, but having a different point of view and a sense of conviction isn't challenging per se - you have to look at the POV or 'conviction' in the wider context too...

 

L&P

 

BD

[Sally44]

children from disadvantaged home situations need all the help they can get to get past their problems, just like an ASD child.

 

Two children:

N is 8, and is in trouble for repeatedly taking toys off another child in the playground, shouting abusive statements at anyone who tries to get the toy back and hitting a teacher who tried to take the toy out of the childs hand.

 

K is also 8, and is in trouble for doing the exactly the same thing as N.

 

N has AS, and as far as i can tell the general feeling on the board is that he should be excused his behaviours because he has little social understanding and experienced a meltdown when the teacher touched him to take away the toy.

 

K is NT, and as such should be punished for bullying the other child, and hitting the teacher.

but look a bit closer and it emerges that K comes from a very deprived home. he has no toys of his own, anything he is given is sold by his parents for money for drugs. he is often hit, and witnesses extreme violence regularly.

 

K is no more in control of his reaction than N. punishing him wont change his situation, and it certainly wont stop him behaving in that way.

 

schools are classed as 'safe havens' for children, and as such, consideration is taken for ALL difficulties that would be affecting a childs behaviour.

 

I think schools should be addressing any child's behaviour, regardless of where it is coming from. But I know of at least two parents who have had to move their children to another placement because the school was not doing anything about other children bullying their child.

 

Alot is about motivation. No-one feels very motivated to intervene for a child that has a family that frankly doesn't give a damn, because the chances of any change are minimal. And many times the bullied child is assumed to 'have asked for it by being different'. (And, although this is a side line, until recently children of parents who were drug addicts were not even considered to be 'at risk' and social services were not automatically involved). But I also agree with bid's comment. Parents are responsible for bringing up their child, and sometimes have to take it on the chin when school, or anyone else, brings their own child's behaviour into question.

 

As I also have an older sibling who is disabled and went to a special school, I clearly remember the things that were said 'as common slang' ie. spaz, mong etc that hurt everytime those words were said. And what do you do as a sibling, do you continually try to educate the word, or join in and laught, or walk away and keep your own company. I remember the comments made by other children to me, or being excluded personally or as a family. I also remember the ridiculous way that school used to treat me as the automatic 'pal' to any special needs child "because of my sister". Children have a very deep need to fit in and not stand out from the crowd.

 

I firmly believe that each individual is the sum total of their experiences. I also believe that those on the spectrum, although of course they are individuals and are unique, have every aspect of their being affected by their diagnosis. In the same way I wouldn't say I was XXX with NT. I am NT. Isn't that what pervasive means?

 

And in other posts we have covered behaviours by those on the spectrum, and I think that their diagnosis always has to be considered, not as a get out clause, but as a way of seeing how they interpreted the situation and therefore how they can be taught that what they did was inappropriate and shown/taught a more appropriate way.

 

[bid]

If every individual I know that could be difficult or challenging was offered support the list would certainly include OH,many of my friends [some more than others] and most of our psychotherapists....... ,Bid [not just because she has AS] and BD.

 

Well, I'm taking it as a compliment!

 

Bid

[bid]

I firmly believe that each individual is the sum total of their experiences. I also believe that those on the spectrum, although of course they are individuals and are unique, have every aspect of their being affected by their diagnosis. In the same way I wouldn't say I was XXX with NT. I am NT. Isn't that what pervasive means?

 

This is how I see things, too...although in the past I have had to agree to disagree certainly with BD (shurely not?! ) on this view.

 

Going back to being 'difficult and challenging' here's an interesting dynamic: am I like this because I have AS and tend to see things literally, etc, or because I was actively brought up never to accept anything without close questioning (my, that made me popular at school...)...or because I was brought up by a father who was identified at the end of his life as being autistic by the medical peeps?? :lol:

 

 

Bid

 

[baddad]

I think schools should be addressing any child's behaviour, regardless of where it is coming from. But I know of at least two parents who have had to move their children to another placement because the school was not doing anything about other children bullying their child.

 

But 'bullying' is open to interpretation. Many people use the word 'bully' to mean anyone who disagrees with them, or any child who behaves like a child to their child (children do tease/wind each other up/be nasty to each other)... That's not to say that bullying isn't a very real problem, but the word itself is often very widely and inappropriately applied.

 

Alot is about motivation. No-one feels very motivated to intervene for a child that has a family that frankly doesn't give a damn, because the chances of any change are minimal. And many times the bullied child is assumed to 'have asked for it by being different'. (And, although this is a side line, until recently children of parents who were drug addicts were not even considered to be 'at risk' and social services were not automatically involved). But I also agree with bid's comment. Parents are responsible for bringing up their child, and sometimes have to take it on the chin when school, or anyone else, brings their own child's behaviour into question.

 

Again, there is a huge question of persepctive. A parent may feel people are not acting, or feel that they are apportioning 'blame', unreasonably, but it is equally possible that the parent themself is being unreasonable. Having a disabled child does not, automatically, make the parents of that child a reasonable person. I'm sure that everybody has their own view about 'bad parenting', but lets say - just for the sake of argument - that most people feel that (and this is a purely arbitrary figure) 30% of other parents are unreasonable. That statistic will 'hold' for parents of disabled children too. in fact, in the case of overprotection/accommodation and excusing of inappropriate behaviours it is probably completely reasonable to assume that the numbers would be even higher...

 

I firmly believe that each individual is the sum total of their experiences. I also believe that those on the spectrum, although of course they are individuals and are unique, have every aspect of their being affected by their diagnosis. In the same way I wouldn't say I was XXX with NT. I am NT. Isn't that what pervasive means?

 

In the same way that every other human being is influenced by every aspect of their lives.

The difference is that you seem to see autism as a 'cause' for everything and exclude the possibility that people are people too.

If an autistic person likes music people will nod and say 'ahhh - that's autism you see - they like that kind of thing'... If an autistic person likes computing, or maths or motorbikes or ANYTHING people will say 'ahhh - that's autism you see - they like that kind of thing'. But those 'judgements' would not be applied to a neurotypical person who liked any of those things - even if they were 'fanatical' about them. Exactly the same thing applies to behaviour or fussy eating or anything else 'negative' many parents will automatically assume that this is part of their child's autism. They then compound that by accommodating the behaviour on the assumption that it is 'part of their autism'. That's not to say that these things can't be connected with autism, but it shouldn't be assumed...

Take fussy eating for example: Say there was absolute, clinical proof that 2% of the autistic population had major issues with taste and/or texture, but that 30% of parents of autistic children believed their children had major food issues. Even if there was a test that proved conclusively that the other 28% did not test positive for major taste/texture issues how many of the other 28% of parents would accept that? They'd just say 'well my child's must be different and not show up on their tests'. This happens time and time again - once something is 'linked' with autism it is assumed to be part of the 'autism' of every autistic person who displays aspects of that behaviour - completely ignoring the fact that the behaviours may also be evidenced in (often at almost identical levels of prevalance) the non-autistic population.

 

And in other posts we have covered behaviours by those on the spectrum, and I think that their diagnosis always has to be considered, not as a get out clause, but as a way of seeing how they interpreted the situation and therefore how they can be taught that what they did was inappropriate and shown/taught a more appropriate way.

 

 

'Considered', yes, 'assumed' no. An autistic child is just as capable of behaving unreasonably for their own ends as a non-autistic child, but much, much more likely to have that behaviour tolerated or excused, totally overlooking the fact that behaving unreasonably to achieve a goal is completely natural and predictable human behaviour - especially in children.

Many, many parents strive to make the point that their child's autism is 'High functioning' or 'Mild', but are completely selective about the areas they chose to perceive their child has the ability to 'function highly' in...

 

Sorry, connieruff - this has rather strayed from the original subject matter. I don't think from your last post you'll be to worried about that , but if you are stick your hand up and perhaps we could start a separate thread for this very interesting but somewhat unrelated topic?

 

L&P

 

BD

 

[bid]

Oooh good: BD, your post above has given me the opportunity to ask something that has been at the back of my mind for a while...

 

You know that we broadly share very similar views about behaviour, responsibilty, etc, etc.

 

But, for a while I have read some of your posts in the more 'challenging' threads, and feel at times as though you are almost 'arguing autism out of existence' in a way (don't know if that makes sense...it did when I thought it! ).

 

So how would you describe autism?

 

Bid

 

Not being 'difficult' in this post, although hold my hands up to 'challenging'

 

Mods: don't know if you want to split this off into a different thread...

Edited April 26, 2009 by bid

[Karen A]

I think schools should be addressing any child's behaviour, regardless of where it is coming from. But I know of at least two parents who have had to move their children to another placement because the school was not doing anything about other children bullying their child.

 

Alot is about motivation. No-one feels very motivated to intervene for a child that has a family that frankly doesn't give a damn, because the chances of any change are minimal. And many times the bullied child is assumed to 'have asked for it by being different'. (And, although this is a side line, until recently children of parents who were drug addicts were not even considered to be 'at risk' and social services were not automatically involved). But I also agree with bid's comment. Parents are responsible for bringing up their child, and sometimes have to take it on the chin when school, or anyone else, brings their own child's behaviour into question.

 

As I also have an older sibling who is disabled and went to a special school, I clearly remember the things that were said 'as common slang' ie. spaz, mong etc that hurt everytime those words were said. And what do you do as a sibling, do you continually try to educate the word, or join in and laught, or walk away and keep your own company. I remember the comments made by other children to me, or being excluded personally or as a family. I also remember the ridiculous way that school used to treat me as the automatic 'pal' to any special needs child "because of my sister". Children have a very deep need to fit in and not stand out from the crowd.

 

I firmly believe that each individual is the sum total of their experiences. I also believe that those on the spectrum, although of course they are individuals and are unique, have every aspect of their being affected by their diagnosis. In the same way I wouldn't say I was XXX with NT. I am NT. Isn't that what pervasive means?

 

I regard ASD in the same way as any other disability.I know that people who are wheelchair users find it offensive when people just see the wheelchair.

From personal experience that is perhaps a better example.As a child I suffered extreme child hood trauma.It has also effected every area of my being.However I regard myself as an individual who suffered childhood trauma.It is not all I am.

I feel strongly about the issue partly because since being dx with ASD Ben has been more disbled due to people [often well intentioned] who see him as being ASD than he ever will be by having ASD.I am sick of being told that every issue he has is down to Ben being autistic.Ben is still Ben.He did not suddenly become a different Ben last October.

I am probably not putting myself very well.I just feel that now some people see the ASD label and that is all they see.People that were friends that have known the family for years suddenly talk to Ben as though he is five.When Ben has a problem in school it is because Ben has autism [other's words not mine].It is never that somone has been down right unreasonable and he has every reason to be cross. Karen.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Oooh good: BD, your post above has given me the opportunity to ask something that has been at the back of my mind for a while...

 

You know that we broadly share very similar views about behaviour, responsibilty, etc, etc.

 

But, for a while I have read a lot of your posts in the more 'challenging' threads, and feel at times as though you are almost 'arguing autism out of existence' in a way (don't know if that makes sense...it did when I thought it! ).

 

So how would you describe autism?

 

Bid

 

Not being 'difficult' in this post, although hold my hands up to 'challenging'

 

Mods: don't know if you want to split this off into a different thread...

.....a different thread or three.

 

[bid]

Oooh good: BD, your post above has given me the opportunity to ask something that has been at the back of my mind for a while...

 

You know that we broadly share very similar views about behaviour, responsibilty, etc, etc.

 

But, for a while I have read some of your posts in the more 'challenging' threads, and feel at times as though you are almost 'arguing autism out of existence' in a way (don't know if that makes sense...it did when I thought it! ).

 

So how would you describe autism?

 

Just whizzed back to clarify that I know this isn't what you are doing, just that sometimes it's the impression I get from your arguments....Which may well just be me...

 

Absolutely no criticism intended and I am genuinely interested in how you would define autism.

 

Bid

Edited April 26, 2009 by bid

[Karen A]

children from disadvantaged home situations need all the help they can get to get past their problems, just like an ASD child.

 

Two children:

N is 8, and is in trouble for repeatedly taking toys off another child in the playground, shouting abusive statements at anyone who tries to get the toy back and hitting a teacher who tried to take the toy out of the childs hand.

 

K is also 8, and is in trouble for doing the exactly the same thing as N.

 

N has AS, and as far as i can tell the general feeling on the board is that he should be excused his behaviours because he has little social understanding and experienced a meltdown when the teacher touched him to take away the toy.

 

K is NT, and as such should be punished for bullying the other child, and hitting the teacher.

but look a bit closer and it emerges that K comes from a very deprived home. he has no toys of his own, anything he is given is sold by his parents for money for drugs. he is often hit, and witnesses extreme violence regularly.

 

K is no more in control of his reaction than N. punishing him wont change his situation, and it certainly wont stop him behaving in that way.

 

schools are classed as 'safe havens' for children, and as such, consideration is taken for ALL difficulties that would be affecting a childs behaviour.

 

 

Thankyou.Very well said indeed.

 

[Karen A]

surely, you jest?

 

Having said that, though (and not offered as a 'defence', just an observation) surely that 'challenging' is purely subjective? I'm sure the church/charity organisations often found Mother Theresa 'challenging', and certainly the majority of american voters in the early 60's found Martin Luther King 'challenging'...

Of course, I'm not claiming any such moral high ground for myself, but having a different point of view and a sense of conviction isn't challenging per se - you have to look at the POV or 'conviction' in the wider context too...

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Ah well.It is very unusual to find somone challenging if they always agree with your viewpoint,never push you in any way and never cause any personal discomfort.Hence the reason yourself and the others are on my list and I am not.

 

Interestingly the reason for my frustration is partly my view regarding Ben's situation.More often than not when he is in trouble it is because of his understanding of justice.He will stand up for things that are unfair and does not back down in response to what I would regard as adult bullying.Where other children would realise that some things are better left rather than face a trip to the HT Ben demands to go and state the case.....for his peers on occasions.Now some would say that is because Ben has ASD .In fact I have known grown adults blame the fact that Ben has ASD on him rather than admit that they were wrong.

 

 

 

[baddad]

Oooh good: BD, your post above has given me the opportunity to ask something that has been at the back of my mind for a while...

 

You know that we broadly share very similar views about behaviour, responsibilty, etc, etc.

 

But, for a while I have read some of your posts in the more 'challenging' threads, and feel at times as though you are almost 'arguing autism out of existence' in a way (don't know if that makes sense...it did when I thought it! ).

 

So how would you describe autism?

 

Bid

 

Not being 'difficult' in this post, although hold my hands up to 'challenging'

 

Mods: don't know if you want to split this off into a different thread...

 

 

How would i describe autism? Well that'd take all night (and I'm cooking dinner after being out at the park all afternoon), but - no - I'm definitely not arguing autism out of existence...

The main point I'm trying to make is that autism isn't all an autistic person is. Not everything an autistic person does is done because they are autistic - there is also a human being and human psychology involved. I think the point i made about music is an incredibly good example of what i mean: My son, who has autism, 'likes' music but doesn't play an instrument and at this stage has no interest in learning an instrument (or at least is not sufficiently interested to put in the time/effort). His best mate (the ginger fella, (YKWIM)), who is not autistic, is much more 'in' to music, and is an accomplished guitarist who is now moving onto keyboards too.

For Ben's BM that's accepted as a perfectly natural talent and inclination, but if ben had exactly the same inclination and talent it would be ascribed by many as being a 'feature' of his autism...

Autism is/can be profoundly disabling, but it is not the reason for every action that an autistic person makes...

One particular area that concerns me is that of aggression and physical intimidation and associated behaviours... all of the research indicates that autistic people are no more inclined towards aggression that the rest of the population, and very few parents would argue against that as a general rule. However, in almost all cases where behaviour is mentioned on this - or any other - forum relating to ASD, the behaviour is explained as an 'autistic meltdown'...

There is this huge double standard that a non-autistic 'thug' is a product of bad parenting/whatever, but there is no such thing as an autistic 'thug' because their 'thuggery' will be labelled as a product of autism.

Quite often in a family of mixed children (i.e. some with AS some NT), parents will say 'ah, that proves it's autism because my other children aren't like it', while totally overlooking the fact that since diagnosis (or even suspicions of diagnosis) their responses/expectations to/of the behaviours have been completely different to the responses/expectations to/of the behaviours of the non-autistic siblings.

 

sorry, dinner calls me away, but in a nutshell - autism creates problems for autistic people. It is not responsible for ALL of their problems, no matter how convenient it may be to pretend that is the case.

 

L&P

 

BD

[lisac]

Ok, so you say autism is'nt responsible for ALL of their problems, but how would you know/tell in someone who has severe autism/low function/self injury ? In my experience it is the associated learning disability that creates the problems, not the autism alone .

[Sally44]

If I had to try to explain autism, I suppose I would liken it to the wiring in a house. That leaves the house 'person' autistic. But that house can be any kind of house, it can contain many different rooms. Some rooms may have no wiring at all 'which I would lead to represent areas of severe difficulty', in other rooms there could be wiring all over the place, which I would lead to represent areas of excellence. But any one of those rooms could be dedicated to a different subject ie. music room, etc and I wouldn't say that the 'subject' of the room indicated the autism. I see autism as the way the person receives and perceives information, processes it and responds to it.

BD, I understand what you are saying about music for example. It is true that if an autistic child is good, or brilliant at something it is considered an autistic talent. But I just want to throw in the whole area of the 'spiky profile'. Most children achieve to a similar level in most subjects, and therefore they are said to be on a developmental percentile etc. For autistic children there is often this spiky profile where there are areas of difficulty and areas where they do very well. For example, with my son his percentile scores range from <1, to 92. That is a huge range of difference. And in the areas he does well at and would be top of the top class, I have always looked at these skills as being so good because that is how his brain is wired. Which by definition is autistic (and professionals have told me these are typical areas of autistic ability). If he didn't have the autistic wiring would he do beter in his areas of difficulty, and in his areas of ability would he be less able?

And I don't know if the musical ability you mentioned is even the same type of ability in NT or ASD children or adults. For ASD children it is usually tied to a learning 'type' and not just a musical ability ie. an NT child learns in a typical way and is also brilliant at music. An ASD child may not learn typically but can learn many things (not necessarily associated with music) through music because that is their learning style.

But I do follow what you say and am mulling it over as I agree to it to a large extent, but there will be a loophole somewhere!

I don't see autism as something like a wheelchair, or our experiences. What I mean is that autism 'is'. Every individual will have a different personality and experiences, and they will be the sum total of those experiences. But if you consider that autism is the wiring in the brain, then the person with an ASD will have perceived and interpretated the experience in an autistic way.

[Sally44]

I have one more comment before I get the kids ready for bed.

Back to the original post about 'run in' in the playground. I just wanted to throw in a global view. If systems and procedures are so capable of solving difficulties I would mention Prime Minster Chamberlain when he returned from his meeting with Hitler with the famous piece of paper declaring that there would be no war. Which turned out to hold less weight than a piece of toilet paper. My point being that some people enjoy the power of chaos and violence and anger and aggression.

And what about NATO. When 'piece in our time' is put at the feet of an organisation that declares that if any nation causes violence then the whole of NATO will retaliate with greater violence?

Personally I do hold alot of weight with systems and procedures because I spent a large portion of my life working in a law firm. But if they worked as they should do, then this forum would be redundant.

With that I'll take a bow and pull the final curtain.

TTFN

[lisac]

Sally i like what you say about the house, i will use that in future!

[Karen A]

I have one more comment before I get the kids ready for bed.

Back to the original post about 'run in' in the playground. I just wanted to throw in a global view. If systems and procedures are so capable of solving difficulties I would mention Prime Minster Chamberlain when he returned from his meeting with Hitler with the famous piece of paper declaring that there would be no war. Which turned out to hold less weight than a piece of toilet paper. My point being that some people enjoy the power of chaos and violence and anger and aggression.

And what about NATO. When 'piece in our time' is put at the feet of an organisation that declares that if any nation causes violence then the whole of NATO will retaliate with greater violence?

Personally I do hold alot of weight with systems and procedures because I spent a large portion of my life working in a law firm. But if they worked as they should do, then this forum would be redundant.

With that I'll take a bow and pull the final curtain.

TTFN

 

I don't think the Forum would be redundant.I would be here.I come here because I like being here and there are people that I care about.There are people here who I am proud to regard as my friends.I feel very sad that people often come because they have problems with systems not working as they should.

I am really very sad at your response.A significant proportion of Forum users are here because they have AS and want to get to know others.How would they no longer have value if the systems worked ?

Ben has value because he is Ben.I care about him because he is Ben.I cannot see how if systems worked I would suddenly not want to understand him better or help support him better or want to talk about the joys and frustrations of being a parent.

Anyway I don't know why I am responding to your post.I am sadly a floored individual.I have done many things that I feel deeeply sad about.If there ever is a perfect system that works as it should I won't be part of it..

Karen.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Sally.I am so upsett that I have copied the introduction to the Forum for you.

The asd-forum.org.uk site hosts would like to wish you a very warm friendly welcome. The aim of this forum is to provide help, support and friendship to people whose life has been touched in one way or another by Autistic Spectrum Disorder (commonly known as ASD), Asperger or any other forms of Autism

I see nothing here that suggests the Forum would be redundant if the systems worked.Whether you would see a reason for coming would be up to you I suppose.Karen.

[Flora]

..........I agree, ...my son had a very difficult time at primary school with a group of about 6 pupils.Because my son had the disability he was seen as the problem.They banded together and things became incredibly difficult for me and I was dx with a depression/anxiety disorder I was under considerable stress with it all.However I never let myself sink to their level , and I have to say it does little to help the situation.

 

Hiya Suze,

 

I totally agree !! Two boys were nearly expelled from primary school because they made William's life a misery for a while.... but I would no more have tackled the parents than I would have approached the kids who were horrible to him! It is over stepping the line and probably would make things far worse.

 

...........and why as always does it appear people are rounding on Baddad for making some very valid points?

 

I agree with this too!

 

Flozza XXX

[wasuup]

Every human being has "run ins" at one time or other. Show me someone who says they have never in the whole of their lives had a "run in" and I will show you a liar.

It is completely natural for a parent to want to defend their child in particular if their child has difficulties other children don't. There is nothing wrong with an occassional steam letting and don't tell me you have time to think through the pro's and con's of blowing before you blow.

Sometimes if a person can see how mad something has made you then they can maybe actually understand your situation better than if you had been placid and calm.

"Run ins" are Ok from time to time so long as they don't drag on and on.

Edited April 26, 2009 by wasuup

[bid]

How would i describe autism? Well that'd take all night (and I'm cooking dinner after being out at the park all afternoon), but - no - I'm definitely not arguing autism out of existence...

The main point I'm trying to make is that autism isn't all an autistic person is. Not everything an autistic person does is done because they are autistic - there is also a human being and human psychology involved. I think the point i made about music is an incredibly good example of what i mean: My son, who has autism, 'likes' music but doesn't play an instrument and at this stage has no interest in learning an instrument (or at least is not sufficiently interested to put in the time/effort). His best mate (the ginger fella, (YKWIM)), who is not autistic, is much more 'in' to music, and is an accomplished guitarist who is now moving onto keyboards too.

For Ben's BM that's accepted as a perfectly natural talent and inclination, but if ben had exactly the same inclination and talent it would be ascribed by many as being a 'feature' of his autism...

Autism is/can be profoundly disabling, but it is not the reason for every action that an autistic person makes...

One particular area that concerns me is that of aggression and physical intimidation and associated behaviours... all of the research indicates that autistic people are no more inclined towards aggression that the rest of the population, and very few parents would argue against that as a general rule. However, in almost all cases where behaviour is mentioned on this - or any other - forum relating to ASD, the behaviour is explained as an 'autistic meltdown'...

There is this huge double standard that a non-autistic 'thug' is a product of bad parenting/whatever, but there is no such thing as an autistic 'thug' because their 'thuggery' will be labelled as a product of autism.

Quite often in a family of mixed children (i.e. some with AS some NT), parents will say 'ah, that proves it's autism because my other children aren't like it', while totally overlooking the fact that since diagnosis (or even suspicions of diagnosis) their responses/expectations to/of the behaviours have been completely different to the responses/expectations to/of the behaviours of the non-autistic siblings.

 

sorry, dinner calls me away, but in a nutshell - autism creates problems for autistic people. It is not responsible for ALL of their problems, no matter how convenient it may be to pretend that is the case.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Thanks BD

 

As always, I agree with much of what you write...apart possibly from the stuff about parenting more than one child, as when you do have two plus children my experience is that you parent them all differently because they are all different, but that's probably yet another new thread!

 

Anyway, back to autism. I think that when trying to understand our childrens' behaviours there has to be a balance between 'autistic explanations' and 'regular explanations' (sorry, clumsy phrases but I hope people know what I mean) as neither happen to the exclusion of the other. I think that in your replies sometimes you may appear to err on the side of the 'regular', hence my impression of almost arguing autism out of existence? Re-reading your copy here of your old post about Ben on holiday you actually put forward a very balanced explanation between 'autistic' and 'regular'.

 

And just in case anyone is worried, I'm certainly not rounding on BD!

 

Bid

Edited April 26, 2009 by bid

[lisac]

I know what you're saying Bid. I think it does depend on the severity of the autism and the associated learning disabilites. It would be easier/wiser to have a more regular approach to someone not so severley affected, surely. I guess it depends on the situation and getting a balance. Gawd knows, ive been doing this for 22 years and am still none the wiser

[baddad]

Ok, so you say autism is'nt responsible for ALL of their problems, but how would you know/tell in someone who has severe autism/low function/self injury ? In my experience it is the associated learning disability that creates the problems, not the autism alone .

 

Hi lisa -

 

I can't answer that, because i don't know. I do agree, though, that severe (dangerous terminology) autism is not fully 'covered' in the answers i have given above, and is an area often overlooked on the forum generally. In the past i have 'challenged' the idea that HF (dangerous terminology again) autistic people - or their parents - can speak for people with more profound difficulties and that assumptions shouldn't be made that they can.That's not always been popular, but i do believe the issues faced by severely autistic people are often so far removed from those at the HF/AS end that any assumptions are, by definition, purely speculative. FWIW, my own feeling is that the effects of Autism on a learning difficulty and the effects of a learning disability on autism are a 'sliding' compound equation - i.e., that the greater the degree of one the bigger its effect will be on the other. (hope that makes sense, i'm very tired and shagged out after a hard day at the pinetum!)

 

sally 44 - i do appreciate the 'uneven profile' and acknowledge it as a major reason why autistic people may struggle to achieve their full potential... In my own post i highlighted, though, the way in which recognised facets of autism can offer convenient cop-outs, and the 'uneven profile' is often used to gainsay legitimate and valid concerns about a child's behaviours or a parents responses to them...

Without wishing this to come across as a direct 'challenge' (it isn't - it's just that you've offered such a perfect example), you've actually underlined the point i was making in your response to the subject of musical ability/interest, by going out of your way to express the possibility that it is somehow inherently 'different', even after acknowledging the validity of my point. Even further - you went on to say that there

'must be a loophole'

... and of course, there will be - if you are so intent on believing that it is something 'other' you will find evidence (however slim) to fulfil your need for it to be 'other'. You've actually confirmed everything i said!

 

With regard to your comments on the politics of WW2, as an indication of why systems and procedures 'don't work'...

Chamberlain was actually being completely truthful when he returned and waved his bit of paper... as far as 99% of political opinion went in this country at the time there would be no war. the general consensus about europe was '**** em, we're alright jack.' Our involvement in the war came about because Churchill was utterly convinced that if we did not get involved we would be the next target of a united europe under German leadership... not quite the altruistic defence of Poland history books of the 60's would want us to believe, but historically accurate.

But. Leaving all that aside... as an alternative to peaceful negotiation (and with absolutely no disrespect to the servicemen who lost their lives) what did the non-peaceful process actually achieve? Millions of dead. A generation of widows and fatherless children. Poverty, hardship, inhumanity and brutality. would that really be your prefered option to a process of peaceful negotiation that effected the same (or a better?) result?

the point you made was that :

 

some people enjoy the power of chaos and violence and anger and aggression.

 

and i totally agree with that. What i don't agree with is that giving them what they want is a good \(or justifiable) response.

 

Wassup - totally agree that 'run ins' are human nature, and i (along with most of the other's posting here) will put my hands up and confess to 'being human', but as far as the rest goes, see above!

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Sorry - just seen bid's post -

No, I don't think i 'err on the side of regular'... i think it's probably more a case of so many people standing in the 'autism' corner that any expression of an alternative 'take' is intepreted as extreme or aggressive... have another look through, and i'm sure you'll see that the 'balance' you saw in the posyt i made about ben on holiday is always there... as it is, in fact, in every post i've made in this thread!

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited April 26, 2009 by baddad

[NobbyNobbs]

I firmly believe that each individual is the sum total of their experiences. I also believe that those on the spectrum, although of course they are individuals and are unique, have every aspect of their being affected by their diagnosis. In the same way I wouldn't say I was XXX with NT. I am NT. Isn't that what pervasive means?

i didn't have a diagnosis for 23 years, so i was just me. a little anti-social (in a good way), quiet, serious... but just me. my parents never suspected there was anything 'wrong' with me at all. i have only hit someone once (my older sister 3 years ago), i always did as i was told, never broke the rules, shouted or caused trouble. in my parents eyes i was perfectly normal, and i was expected to behave as such.

 

one of the things i am most glad of is that i was not diagnosed as a child. i would hate to have not achieved what i have because my parents had an excuse for not expecting me to learn to behave. perhaps my AS is milder than other peoples. there are probably any number of reasons why other peoples children can't behave but ultimately. i wasn't given the option, and it worked.

all children learn to behave in a certain way from their parents. i'm very glad my parents decided that i would be normal and fit in with the rest of the world.

i'd much rather be the result of my experiences than the result of a 3 hour diagnosis of the things i have to work harder at.

[frogslegs]

Nobby I agree that having a dx can be a label and that people are much much more than that. We have loved and cherished our son for 10 years without a label and will continue to do so with label. Like everyone else he has good days and bad days and good points and bad points. Our expectations for him are high as I see no reason why he should not achieve as much as most people. From a discipline point of view, I expect from him exactly the same as I expect from his NT sister, but I accept that it may take more time to get there for him. I truly believe he is a great person with lots of positive sides. Not every aspect of his life is affected by Asperger as he is mildly affected but certainly his social life is. That makes him so unhappy and what I hope from the dx is that it will provide him with the support he needs for life to be less of a struggle. I know that Asperger is a disability but I cannot call my son 'disabled' because he is on the whole a well adjusted young boy, but he is 'different'. He tells me that he likes himself and that he would not really want to swap with anyone else. I am proud of him and I am sure your parents must be proud of you too.

[lisac]

Yes bigdad it does make sense , forgot what i was going to say , but yeah , is there a smiley thing for sh** ?

[Sally44]

Sally.I am so upsett that I have copied the introduction to the Forum for you.

The asd-forum.org.uk site hosts would like to wish you a very warm friendly welcome. The aim of this forum is to provide help, support and friendship to people whose life has been touched in one way or another by Autistic Spectrum Disorder (commonly known as ASD), Asperger or any other forms of Autism

I see nothing here that suggests the Forum would be redundant if the systems worked.Whether you would see a reason for coming would be up to you I suppose.Karen.

 

Don't be upset. I know I wrote it literally, and you have taken it literally, but that isn't exactly, completely, what I meant. Of course this is a place for people to meet and discuss things, good and bad.

I suppose, if everything were going well in my small circle, that I might still be here - probably would. But the main motivation at present seems to be coming out of a drive to find out more, and a need to understand the whole process as it does seem like a never ending maze sometimes. I also have the strong feeling that my own family were treated very unjustly, and I feel driven to inform any other parent who seems to be having a similar experience. I think it is just the stage in the process I am at.

[bid]

Yes bigdad it does make sense , forgot what i was going to say , but yeah , is there a smiley thing for sh** ?

 

 

 

Bid

 

[baddad]

Oh no... people have been peeking through that hole in the cubicle wall again

But... back to the post itself...

Sorry, lisa, there's no emoticon for that. I think the nearest we have are if it's that sort of merde, or if it's the other sort... Maybe one of each would fit the bill(?)

Hope in either case (or if it's a mix of both) it was a general sort of 'despairing sigh' and not anything specific I might have written. If the latter, I can assure you that no offence was intended

 

L&P

 

BD

[Karen A]

Yes bigdad it does make sense , forgot what i was going to say , but yeah , is there a smiley thing for sh** ?

 

I usually use and as in shame on me.I find that in vaious combinations it is possible to create a smiley thing for this eventuality.

I am however looking for a Smiley for smack my hands severely mods I have been very out of order.

Edited to add I am looking for one for when I need it.I have not done anything that requires this particular smiley at this minute.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Karen A

[baddad]

I am however looking for a Smiley for smack my hands severely mods I have been very out of order.

Edited to add I am looking for one for when I need it.I have not done anything that requires this particular smiley at this minute.

 

Can't do a smiley, and haven't time at the mo to do an animated version, but perhaps this'll work as a 'copy and paste' in the interim. Thanks again for posing

 

bad dog, naughty dog - back in your basket

 

L&P

 

BD

[lisac]

oh no! completely innocent, i tried to edit but could'nt .. sorry baddad ,

[Karen A]

Can't do a smiley, and haven't time at the mo to do an animated version, but perhaps this'll work as a 'copy and paste' in the interim. Thanks again for posing

 

bad dog, naughty dog - back in your basket

 

L&P

 

BD

 

How did you spot the likeness.....it is so me.