What is reasonable progress

[Sally44]

I've got my son's MEP coming up soon.

My son is Statemented, and the statement says he has difficulties consistent with a diagnosis of dyslexia and dyscalculia.

He is 8 years old and is still on 'P' scales (ie. not on the national curriculum yet). He cannot read or write independently yet.

In his Statement is says that if he has not made reasonable progress within 6 months that the LEA must appoint a specialist dyslexia teacher to go into school.

I think someone said to me that if a child makes 2 points of progress within an academic year then that is seen as reasonable progress. But I don't know whether that is written anywhere.

Any similar experiences would be appreciated.

[Sally44]

Just spoken with the Dyslexia Advisory Teacher who says she will get a copy of my son's Statement, and also speak with the school.

I asked her about 'the future' (my son is now 8) and what happens when a child is not reading or writing as they get older - how do you assess their skills. She told me that if he still cannot read or write that he would eventually get access to a scribe. But the effectiveness of that "would depend on whether he had anything to say". Well his speech is quite severely affected as well.

Are there are positive stories out there??

 

[Kazzen161]

There is no reason why he could not have a scribe for some pieces of work now. A TA would get used to interpreting his speech, and the content of his work could then be assessed. We did this for one child up until Year 3, when he was able to start writing on his own.

 

Can he type? There is Widget or something like that (symbols) that can be used to write.

 

Have they tired all the strategies to help with his writing? (slope, foot step, cushions, different pens, handwriting lessons, multisensory, etc)

What interventions have they tried for his reading?

What interventions are they using for his maths? (The Dyscalculia toolkit is good).

 

It is not just about what level he is at - it is how much progress he is making over the months/year. All children are expected to make reasonable progress (1 and a half to two sub levels per year for NC), whatever level they start at.

 

"Reasonable progress" should have been specified in the Statement - otherwise it is up to personal judgement.

 

 

[Sally44]

He is in year 2 and they haven't tried him with typing.

For literacy they used Precision Teaching along with other tasks to help with short term memory retrieval.

There is no reason why he cannot write. Although he does have some motor planning problems. He just doesn't seem to get the concepts, and he cannot hold information in his short term memory (or retrieve it) if it is to do with literacy or numeracy - yet he can hold other information. The precision teaching has helped him retain information. But if I ask him to write the word 'cat', he would have no idea where to start. He is beginning to sound out 3 letter words eg. c-a-t, but then might say the word is 'tap'. So he isn't using the sounding out to help identify what the word is!

Numeracy is slightly better. They have just started him on the Numicon system.

School are saying that he has made progress in both literacy and numeracy of about 1 point each. And I can see that his skills have improved in some areas eg. being able to sound out c-a-t. But if he can't then identify what word that is, then effectively he hasn't progressed. I'm getting totally bogged down and confused with it all.

I think i'll ask them at the MEP what tools they are using for both literacy and numeracy.

 

[Karen A]

Hi.If the inability to write is to do with things like fine motor skills or ability to hold a pencil then an alphasmart might be useful.Ben was below the level expected for a child his age at the end of key stage 1.He started using an alphamart and now he is regarded as gifted and talented in creative writing.I now understand why he was frustrated.

Has your son ever attempted to type on the computer ? How does he get on ?

An alphasmart is basically a small word processor.They are small and very sturdy.

Sorry cross posted. Karen.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Karen A

[Kazzen161]

I don't know anything about precision teaching.

 

We have just started using Numicon, and it has had good recommendations. The children do enjoy using it.

 

If he can sound out the letters, and he couldn't do so before, that is progress. It is the first step - the next will be to learn to blend the sounds to make a word. You need to check that they are teaching him phonic skills 1:1 or in a small group (eg: Phonographix or Letters and Sounds).

 

He won't be able to write a word until he can read it, because he won't be able to spell it. To him it will be like trying to write in a foreign language.

 

Does he have pre-writing skills eg:holding a pencil properly, drawing circles and lines, etc?

 

Have they tried him with coloured overlays? They make a lot of difference to some children.

 

I have found the children with dyslexia and dyscalculia need physical things to reinforce the concepts (eg: numicon, cuisennaire, 100 squares, writing in sand trays, painting letters on the wall with water).

 

[Sally44]

He can hold a pencil correctly most of the time! But he does also swop hands.

They are teaching phonics in small groups and also using flashcards because my son has alot of difficulty with phonics because he also has central auditory processing disorder which means he actually hears the sounds differently ie. he cannot tell the difference between 'p' and 'b' and 'm' and 'n'.

He also learns things in chunks, which I believe is typical of being on the spectrum and finds it very hard to start with letters and build them up into words and then build up words into sentences.

Would I be reasonable in asking that he start to learn how to type at his age (8)? Bringing in another system will dilute the time he spends on phonics or flashcards. But at the same time we have been working on these skills for years and it might be that typing would be easier for him. I'll mention it at his MEP and see what they say.

And it is logical that if he cannot recognise a word and read it that he won't be able to write it

But it does seem to be a memory retrieval problem as well because if you put some flashcards on the table and asked him to point to the word that says 'cat', he could do that. So when given a visual choice he can work it out. But without any visual clue he cannot write the word cat. And the flashcard thing only works if you use words that start with different letters ie. if you had cat, can, camp etc he would not recognise cat. So he is going on the beginning letter, which is a start. But why can't he retrieve that information in his mind without the visual flashcard to see. Is that just part of how his ASD affects him and that is as good as it will get?

It sounds like they are doing what they should be doing which is reassuring.

I worry that his difficulties are going to make it very difficult for him to demonstrate learning and ability, which I know he does have.

He doesn't have overlays, but he wears irlen glasses - which we've lost at the moment - i've got to search the house for them.

[chris54]

My son has problems with writing due, to put it briefly, fine motor skills.

 

He has been using a scribe and keyboard some of the time for a few years now. he is 8.

 

As far as learning to type we just plonked him in front of the keyboard and let him get on with it.

 

He loves playing to see what all the keys do.

[Karen A]

He can hold a pencil correctly most of the time! But he does also swop hands.

They are teaching phonics in small groups and also using flashcards because my son has alot of difficulty with phonics because he also has central auditory processing disorder which means he actually hears the sounds differently ie. he cannot tell the difference between 'p' and 'b' and 'm' and 'n'.

He also learns things in chunks, which I believe is typical of being on the spectrum and finds it very hard to start with letters and build them up into words and then build up words into sentences.

Would I be reasonable in asking that he start to learn how to type at his age (8)? Bringing in another system will dilute the time he spends on phonics or flashcards. But at the same time we have been working on these skills for years and it might be that typing would be easier for him. I'll mention it at his MEP and see what they say.

And it is logical that if he cannot recognise a word and read it that he won't be able to write it

But it does seem to be a memory retrieval problem as well because if you put some flashcards on the table and asked him to point to the word that says 'cat', he could do that. So when given a visual choice he can work it out. But without any visual clue he cannot write the word cat. And the flashcard thing only works if you use words that start with different letters ie. if you had cat, can, camp etc he would not recognise cat. So he is going on the beginning letter, which is a start. But why can't he retrieve that information in his mind without the visual flashcard to see. Is that just part of how his ASD affects him and that is as good as it will get?

It sounds like they are doing what they should be doing which is reassuring.

I worry that his difficulties are going to make it very difficult for him to demonstrate learning and ability, which I know he does have.

He doesn't have overlays, but he wears irlen glasses - which we've lost at the moment - i've got to search the house for them.

 

Hi Sally.If it helps Ben was never taught to type at all.He was given the alphasmart because he could not write for any length of time without getting cramp.Ben has very flxible finger joints that tend to bend back.Anyway once he was provided with an alphasmart he never looked back.Now he touch types probably fast enough to be a PA.

The alphasmart is not expensive and is very easy to use.Ben was supplied with one by the LA and it is documented in his Statement.Well to be more accurate it was documented until the Statement was amended in preparation for secondary school.Now the Statement documents ICT use generallly as Ben will probably use a laptop instead at secondary.

How does your son get on with using a computer key board ?

I should add that Ben is different to your son in that he has never had difficulties with reading or with things like spelling.It is just the actual physical use of tools that he finds diffficult.

 

Ben started using the alphasmart in year 3.However I think they are used by children with physical disabilities from much earlier.In our borough the alphasmart is used very widely in the specialist school for children with complex physical disabilities.

Edited after reading Chris's post which I crossed posts with.Another common alternative for children with writing difficulties is to have a scribe.This is allowed where requested even in SATS tests.It never worked for Ben because he types as he thinks.....very quickly.The TA said her attempts to scribe would drive him mad. Karen.

Edited April 24, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Hi again Sally.If you google alphamart neo then you will be able to find a web site on the product with more information.I have not posted a link because I am not sure if I can within Forum rules on advertising. Karen.

[Kazzen161]

Seeing a c and recognising it as representing a "c" sound is one process.

Hearing the sound "c" (externally or internally) and converting that into the movements that make the picture of the letter "c" is a different process.

 

If he can't blend the sounds c, a, t to make cat, then he probably will not be able to split the word cat into the sounds c, a, t.

 

Can he write the individual letters of the alphabet (by letter name, and by letter sound)?

 

Flashcards might be encouraging him to guess what a word says, rather than working it out.

[Sally44]

Seeing a c and recognising it as representing a "c" sound is one process.

Hearing the sound "c" (externally or internally) and converting that into the movements that make the picture of the letter "c" is a different process.

 

If he can't blend the sounds c, a, t to make cat, then he probably will not be able to split the word cat into the sounds c, a, t.

 

Can he write the individual letters of the alphabet (by letter name, and by letter sound)?

 

Flashcards might be encouraging him to guess what a word says, rather than working it out.

 

I don't think they go by letter name at all, it just confuses him more. They go by letter sound (Jolly Phonics). If you just said the letter sound and asked him to write it he would struggle. There might be around 10 letter sounds that he remembers. Otherwise he needs to see it first. I think the problem is he doesn't have the skills to work it out. But they are still using both approaches at the moment, because he is making some progress in both systems and they are doing it every day. In his previous school they started with flashcards and he learnt over 45+ words. Then they changed to phonics and he slowly forgot the words he previously knew (last time tested prior to SA he knew only 8 high frequency words). And phonics is a system that he also struggles with. In his present school they are doing daily work on this and he is showing improvement. Whether it is permanently 'learnt' I don't know. I also don't know if he will ever get to a stage where he has enough knowledge of letter sounds, blending etc to work out what a word says. Interestingly he is quite good a 'reading pictures'. I know that some children with ASDs cannot understand the story from the pictures, but can read - yet without understanding. My son seems to have a good grasp of the story through pictures, but words

 

He's just come home from school now, and has told me: double 1 is 2, double 2 is 4 and double 3 is 6. He has to use his fingers always. And he showed me how he has been taught to do this in school, ie get three fingers and count them twice. But this is a major achievement, and I could tell that he was very proud of himself I think he has one to one correspondence with numbers up to 10. But all maths has to be done with his fingers, or something else visual like an abacus - again he cannot hold that information and manipulate it in his mind.

 

And the difficulties I mention above, are such a struggle for him because he is alot brighter than those difficulties would appear to indicate and he gets so frustrated with himself and the 'baby work' (as he calls it) that he has to do. He asked me the other day if ghosts are real. I said I don't know. Then he asked if animals have ghosts.

 

I know off on a tangent now, but have you ever used the SCERTS assessment system for social interaction skills? And if so what is your opinion.

[LizK]

DS has some of these difficulties though not to the same degree. Your example above of 'cat' - picking it out visually but not able to write it - sounds familiar. DS has difficulties with phonological awareness which is responsible for many of his reading and spelling difficulties. He simply cannot hear the sounds in words, struggles to blend phonically, did not get the concept of rhyming. From what I understand it is related to auditory processing and causes language difficulties as well? Presumably is aprt of being dyslexic. DS is a strong visual learner so has learned to read by sight. Could read a word like Beethoven' but not the word 'was' Apparently a child needs to have phonological awareness before they can move onto phonics but school had not realised he struggled with PA so it was no wonder that he couldn't do phonics. DS's PA difficulties wer picked up by the SALT who put a programme in place. At the same time he started Direct Phonics at school, I think he might also be doing Precision Teaching as well and a few months later his reading has come on in leaps and bounds. Spelling is still very hit and miss though I've been told this takes longer. We use coloured overlays, twas very sceptical but couldn't believe the difference it made. I probably should get him assessed for lenses really.

 

Interested in your replies regarding writing. This is still a massive issue. His letter formation is poor, he has some coord problems and coupled with his difficulties in spelling and with sequencing as well as his complete disinterest writing is not his thing. He is allowed to use the laptop at school sometimes as he finds this easier and is something that may be encouraged more as he gets older as we think he will need to use a laptop at secondary school.

 

Lx

[av16]

Hi - you could ask his school if they would consider using PIVATs to help monior his progress. It's a more detailed version of the p scales and NC levels; each sub level is sub levelled- so you can be a level 1Cd for example. It shows if a child is making progress, however small. I think it's a Lancashire LEA publication. If he's a visual learner you could use a whole word approach combined with phonics so he recognises th shape of a word. There are ICT programmes like 'clicker' most schools have that would be good and things like keyword bingo. Widget is also excellent. The use of ICT is often a way of getting a brak through with children especially using photos of real objects.

 

AV

[Kazzen161]

It makes sense that he struggles to write anything, if he does not know how to write the individual letters. As his handwriting and phonics skills improve, hopefully his writing will.

 

My son's handwriting improved enormously once he could spell more confidently (he was 13 then).

 

When he copied from the board he would copy one letter at a time, even though he could read what was written on the board.

 

Has your son been assessed for dyslexia and dyscalculia?

 

 

[Sally44]

DS has some of these difficulties though not to the same degree. Your example above of 'cat' - picking it out visually but not able to write it - sounds familiar. DS has difficulties with phonological awareness which is responsible for many of his reading and spelling difficulties. He simply cannot hear the sounds in words, struggles to blend phonically, did not get the concept of rhyming. From what I understand it is related to auditory processing and causes language difficulties as well? Presumably is aprt of being dyslexic. DS is a strong visual learner so has learned to read by sight. Could read a word like Beethoven' but not the word 'was' Apparently a child needs to have phonological awareness before they can move onto phonics but school had not realised he struggled with PA so it was no wonder that he couldn't do phonics. DS's PA difficulties wer picked up by the SALT who put a programme in place. At the same time he started Direct Phonics at school, I think he might also be doing Precision Teaching as well and a few months later his reading has come on in leaps and bounds. Spelling is still very hit and miss though I've been told this takes longer. We use coloured overlays, twas very sceptical but couldn't believe the difference it made. I probably should get him assessed for lenses really.

 

Interested in your replies regarding writing. This is still a massive issue. His letter formation is poor, he has some coord problems and coupled with his difficulties in spelling and with sequencing as well as his complete disinterest writing is not his thing. He is allowed to use the laptop at school sometimes as he finds this easier and is something that may be encouraged more as he gets older as we think he will need to use a laptop at secondary school.

 

Lx

 

Yes, I noticed an improvement since they started Precision Teaching with my son. It was initially recommended in 2006, and finally put in place after the Statement in 2009 - HEY HO!!

And they've just started with Numicon, which I think will help him enormously because it is all about colours and shapes - which ties in nicely with his model building and jigsaw puzzle skills.

With writing, again he doesn't seem to be able to retrieve from memory what the letter looks like when he just hears the letter sound. And he also seems to find it hard to know where to start formulating the letter on the page. And as he does have auditory processing problems, I suppose that is a major player in that. I did have an autistic adult suggest it might be some kind of verbal/visual agnosia. If he had a mixture of flashcards, he could pick out the words to make a sentence and could then copy them down. And the thing I find so frustrating is that he does find it so hard to learn these things and retrieve the information from his memory. Yet in other areas his memory is fantastic. He can talk about things he did when he was 2. I have been told that that is because letters and numbers are abstract concepts etc. But it is still frustrating.

 

[Sally44]

Hi - you could ask his school if they would consider using PIVATs to help monior his progress. It's a more detailed version of the p scales and NC levels; each sub level is sub levelled- so you can be a level 1Cd for example. It shows if a child is making progress, however small. I think it's a Lancashire LEA publication. If he's a visual learner you could use a whole word approach combined with phonics so he recognises th shape of a word. There are ICT programmes like 'clicker' most schools have that would be good and things like keyword bingo. Widget is also excellent. The use of ICT is often a way of getting a brak through with children especially using photos of real objects.

 

AV

 

Thanks, I think I need to talk about this with school as an overall long term issue. I have already spoken with the Dyslexia Advisory Teacher, who was quite curt to be honest. ie. she talked about using a scribe, but that that would only work if my son had something to say!! (he's quite passive). But I said 'i'm just making you aware of the current situation because he has a Statement and it says we need to check his progress after 6 months. That made her sit up and take notice a bit more. So she said she will get a copy of the Statement and read it.

So I think that laptops and computer programmes such as clicker (mentioned by the private EP I used) might be a way forward. It might also motivate him more.

What exactly is Widget?

And the PIVATs sounds interesting too.

[Kazzen161]

http://www.widgit.com/

 

I think maybe by saying "only if has something to say" - she was meaning only if he has the ability to make up a story, etc - not whether he would or could speak it aloud.

 

Have *you* tried scribing a story or other piece of work for him? Then you could use that as evidence of what he is capable of.

[Sally44]

http://www.widgit.com/

 

I think maybe by saying "only if has something to say" - she was meaning only if he has the ability to make up a story, etc - not whether he would or could speak it aloud.

 

Have *you* tried scribing a story or other piece of work for him? Then you could use that as evidence of what he is capable of.

 

Getting him to join in, or start, or sustain a conversation is where we are at the moment. He can talk at you for a very short length of time, but doesn't always want or wait for a reply. Maybe once a week we will have what I would consider a lengthy conversation by his standards. This week it was about an operation I am due to have (when I have built up the courage to go ahead with it). He was asking about when it would be, would I have a hole, could I cover it up so he wouldn't see it, would I have stitches, would it hurt, would I stay in hospital for a long time, how many days before it happens. That is a marathon for him.

Sometimes, at bedtime, we try to make up a story together. eg. I say a sentence, and then he says the next one. Sometimes it works, and we get some really funny stories. Other times he is very rigid and tries to tell me what I have to say (usually so it fits something he has already seen). He has alot of imagination in his lego model making, but outside of that, any probing is usually met with "I don't know". But he can learn facts. Infact he absorbs information and when those memories are triggered he regurgitates it, sometimes to his own surprise (as well as mine).

When the DAT mentioned a scribe my heart sort of sank, because using language to communicate is another 'area of difficulty'. I just wish he excelled at something that was measurable in the school system!

And from reading others postings, it is reassuring me that alot of what can be done is being done. And I just need to ask some questions about how we proceed from where we are.

 

[bid]

My son learned to touch-type using a fun computer programme for kids when he was about 8. It was a long time ago now so can't remember the name, but I'm sure there must be modern equivalents.

 

He has severe dyspraxia as well as AS, but he had no problems at all learning to type.

 

Bid