Bullying

[Karen A]

I have been thinking about my previous post this evening and think it might be better (please understand I am not telling you what to do, just making suggestions), if you sent a letter to the CAHMS Psychologist to the effect "further to our meeting today in which I informed you of my sons recent deterioration in mental health of .................................. which I understand is due to difficulties he is having in school; you spent some time with my son where you informed me he told you of the following instances in school:

a)

c)

In view of his diagnosis, he is vulnerable child, and I am very concerned about the implications of this. Can you please advise me how with now proceed."

 

It might be worth contacting NAS, IPSEA or ACE for their perspective on this.

 

I would also at this stage think about what you wish to come out of this. For example this might be used as evidence that his current placement is not suitable, or that he needs a Statement (not sure if he has one), or that his Statement should be amended to state that all "teaching staff and TAs should be suitably qualified and trained to teach children with ASDs".

As awful as this situation is, you might be able to turn it around and get something your son needs.

I would also recommend not agreeing to anything that is suggested to you (even verbally) at this stage as any agreement now might be used against you later. I would get a bit more information about the implications of whatever it was that your son said happened.

And I think it is worth writing a letter to the CAHMS psychologist in the above terms because she has got to write back and deny everything in writing or your letter is going to stand as evidence that that is an accurate reflection of what was discussed at that meeting. Even if she does not respond at all that is still evidence that you have put in writing a conversation and that the contents of that conversation have not been denied with CAHMS. The implications of this and any professionals 'duty of care' to your son if they take no action could be quite serious - again depending on what was discussed and which I have no knowledge of.

 

Sally I don't think it is appropriate for information used in a consultation between a CAMHS professional and a parent and child to be used in this way.

CAMHS consultations are completely confidential.CAMHS professionals are extremely aware regarding this issue.The psychotherapist that supports Ben will not even discuss with us the work she does with him.

If the psychologist recieves a letter in the form you have suggested he or she may well say they cannot work therapeutically with a parent making threats.CAMHS professionals are not obliged to give evidence to anyone unless requested to attend court for example in a child protection case.

The CAMHS psychologist may well say it is not his role to give advice on how things should proceed.

The psychologist will rightly be attempting to establish a therapeutic relationship in order to decide whether further work is required.This work cannot proceed with a parent exerting pressure regarding education.

When CAMHS were involved with my elder son when he suffered panic attacks we were not involved at all.The psychologist would not even have talked to me regarding the work.

Karen.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

i might have missed this somewhere else, but where is the evidence? all CAMHS can say is that he has said these things. unless someone actually witnesses it happening then it is still only one side of the story

 

As I have already suggested from knowledge of working weekly with CAMHS for two years CAMHS will say nothing more than that they do not discuss the details of a consultation due to patient confidentiality.Karen.

 

[Karen A]

I presume the CAHMS psychologist has made notes of everything your son said. Can you ask for a copy of them? This would be evidence of what your son said, and that it was said it to another professional.

So what is the suggested next step with this.

 

No.No CAMHS professional would dream of giving out a copy of details of information discussed in a private consultation.

Sally what you are suggesting is very near being unethical as far as I can tell.

I think you said you worked in law.I would think you would know about pateint confideniality.

Edited to add.As the teenager is at secondary school CAMHS would consider that the consultation is between the teenager and the psychologist.The psychologist may well accuse the parent of breeching confidentiality.A parent has no right whatsoever to use information discussed between a CAMHS professional and a client .

Edited April 29, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

I have been thinking about my previous post this evening and think it might be better (please understand I am not telling you what to do, just making suggestions), if you sent a letter to the CAHMS Psychologist to the effect "further to our meeting today in which I informed you of my sons recent deterioration in mental health of .................................. which I understand is due to difficulties he is having in school; you spent some time with my son where you informed me he told you of the following instances in school:

a)

c)

In view of his diagnosis, he is vulnerable child, and I am very concerned about the implications of this. Can you please advise me how with now proceed."

 

It might be worth contacting NAS, IPSEA or ACE for their perspective on this.

 

I would also at this stage think about what you wish to come out of this. For example this might be used as evidence that his current placement is not suitable, or that he needs a Statement (not sure if he has one), or that his Statement should be amended to state that all "teaching staff and TAs should be suitably qualified and trained to teach children with ASDs".

As awful as this situation is, you might be able to turn it around and get something your son needs.

I would also recommend not agreeing to anything that is suggested to you (even verbally) at this stage as any agreement now might be used against you later. I would get a bit more information about the implications of whatever it was that your son said happened.

And I think it is worth writing a letter to the CAHMS psychologist in the above terms because she has got to write back and deny everything in writing or your letter is going to stand as evidence that that is an accurate reflection of what was discussed at that meeting. Even if she does not respond at all that is still evidence that you have put in writing a conversation and that the contents of that conversation have not been denied with CAHMS. The implications of this and any professionals 'duty of care' to your son if they take no action could be quite serious - again depending on what was discussed and which I have no knowledge of.

 

Just to add .The psychologist does not have to write back.Ben's psychotherapist who is excellent incidently does not even return my calls.I speak to the psychotherapist who works with us who then speaks to her......Her relationship is rightly with Ben.

 

Sally we previously worked with a CAMHS psychiatrist.She worked in the NHS as a consultant for twenty five years and reitred last year,she regularly gave evidence as an expert witness in court. I cannot imagine what she would have said if a parent had sent her a letter like that.It would not have been to do what was asked that is for sure.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Karen A

[Mumble]

I think you said you worked in law.I would think you would know about patient confidentiality.

I'm glad you've put that because I didn't know the legalities but was horrified at the thought that a psychologist would blurt all to the parents. My faith has again been restored in the professionals.

 

[Karen A]

I'm glad you've put that because I didn't know the legalities but was horrified at the thought that a psychologist would blurt all to the parents. My faith has again been restored in the professionals.

 

Mumble.We have worked with CAMHS professionals for three years.I can honestly say that I have trusted them with information that only my OH knows.I have had some desperately difficult times.I would trust them with my life....and have done.

[frogslegs]

frogslegs just to let you know that I understand were you are coming from with regards to baddad's comments ;I was very upset by his sarcasm in his comment (your son's exempary behaviour) to me that's a totaly unecessary remark to make. I also felt in his remarks that he appeared to make me and my son feel like we were on some kind of hate mission towards this teacher, perhaps he would feel differently if this was happening to his child. Also his comment that my son was(not entirely unbiased source of info) didn't go down very well with me either it was rather a negative and pompous thing to say and hurtful; we all know that our children may misinterpret things sometimes he need not have put it quit that way.

Thank you. I hope things get sorted for your boy.

Mel

[alexmum2]

And regarding any misinterpretation of things. At least it has been ruled out. Otherwise that is the first suggestion that would have been put forward. Now you have evidence via the CAHMS psychologist of things your son has said have happened.

Yes it was only touched on briefly; this visit was not about this teacher but the difficulties he has had recently; he doesn't like the sex education lessons and was taken out of them at one point. H e sometimes has silly brhaviour but I believe that to manifest it's self when he is stressed.

[Sally44]

I admit I don't know exactly how CAHMS works as I've not had any dealings with them.

But my understanding is that although all professionals have confidentiality with clients that does not apply if the child is being abused (which can be physical or mental), or harmed or is capable of harming themselves or others, then those professionals have a duty of care towards their client to actively do something about it, which may include reporting certain incidents to other agencies. It does really depend on what has been disclosed, and obviously I don't know what that was. I was just trying to make the point that if it is something significant, that this might be an opportunity that demonstrates a need for a certain level of support or placement. And even if the CAHMS professional is obliged to keep confidentiality, the parent has a right to get an independent report from another professional, if they feel necessary - especially if that involves the mental state of a patient that maybe partly due to the environment they are currently in. I think whatever the situation is that it would be useful for the parents to talk it through with the NAS, IPSEA or ACE to get their opinion on it.

[Sally44]

i might have missed this somewhere else, but where is the evidence? all CAMHS can say is that he has said these things. unless someone actually witnesses it happening then it is still only one side of the story

 

What I meant by this is that if a child relates things which indicate that they have been abused, or have been harmed or are in danger of harming others, then that has to be reported to other agencies and investigated and confidentiality has to be broken. If it has been said to a professional they have a duty of care to report that. In this situation I don't know what has been disclosed. But confidentiality does not apply in all circumstances. If something has been disclosed that has to be acted on by professionals. That is the evidence I meant. I don't mean that means that what was disclosed is true. But if it is one of those situations where duty of care means that confidentiality has to be broken, then that is what has to happen.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

this is all getting a bit carried away now, surely!

 

thinking that a teacher is picking on you is a million miles away from abuse that would require a breach in confidentiality. CAMHS cannot go and accuse a teacher of abusing a child because he didn't like being told off and felt it was unfair, whether it was or wasn't! its not anything to do with CAMHS beyond them dealing with the mental distress it is causing the child (and no child likes being told off).

 

the rule you are suggesting is used for cases of severe mental and physical abuse, sexual abuse and other very serious circumstances where the child cannot make an informed decision and it is in their best interest that outside agencies prevent them being put at further risk. the topic of discussion is a parent who is concerned that a teacher has taken a dislike to her child and is telling him off more than other children. if you can't see the gulf between those two things, then i'm rather worried.

 

until there is a proper investigation into the events, rather than just one side of the story and a bit of hear-say and gossip, i think its all going a bit far and it seems you're all out for blood without considering (or rather, delibrately ignoring) the other side of the story.

 

i might have missed it, but has someone actually spoken to the teacher about the concerns? it may well be a simple misunderstanding.

 

i'm also finding it a little hard to understand why the teacher would choose a quiet child to pick on, when there are apparently so many more disruptive children her frustration could be foucused on. when you've got a room full of people shouting at you, how likely are you to bother with the person sitting quietly?

[bid]

this is all getting a bit carried away now, surely!

 

thinking that a teacher is picking on you is a million miles away from abuse that would require a breach in confidentiality. CAMHS cannot go and accuse a teacher of abusing a child because he didn't like being told off and felt it was unfair, whether it was or wasn't! its not anything to do with CAMHS beyond them dealing with the mental distress it is causing the child (and no child likes being told off).

 

the rule you are suggesting is used for cases of severe mental and physical abuse, sexual abuse and other very serious circumstances where the child cannot make an informed decision and it is in their best interest that outside agencies prevent them being put at further risk. the topic of discussion is a parent who is concerned that a teacher has taken a dislike to her child and is telling him off more than other children. if you can't see the gulf between those two things, then i'm rather worried.

 

until there is a proper investigation into the events, rather than just one side of the story and a bit of hear-say and gossip, i think its all going a bit far and it seems you're all out for blood without considering (or rather, delibrately ignoring) the other side of the story.

 

i might have missed it, but has someone actually spoken to the teacher about the concerns? it may well be a simple misunderstanding.

 

i'm also finding it a little hard to understand why the teacher would choose a quiet child to pick on, when there are apparently so many more disruptive children her frustration could be foucused on. when you've got a room full of people shouting at you, how likely are you to bother with the person sitting quietly?

 

Thank you, Nobby...some excellent points.

 

I have stayed out of this thread so far, but I have felt extremely uncomfortable with the sentiments expressed concerning teachers, such as the use of the word 'evil', etc Previously on the forum we have always taken care not to discuss any professionals in this way.

 

Bid

Edited April 30, 2009 by bid

[Karen A]

I admit I don't know exactly how CAHMS works as I've not had any dealings with them.

But my understanding is that although all professionals have confidentiality with clients that does not apply if the child is being abused (which can be physical or mental), or harmed or is capable of harming themselves or others, then those professionals have a duty of care towards their client to actively do something about it, which may include reporting certain incidents to other agencies. It does really depend on what has been disclosed, and obviously I don't know what that was. I was just trying to make the point that if it is something significant, that this might be an opportunity that demonstrates a need for a certain level of support or placement. And even if the CAHMS professional is obliged to keep confidentiality, the parent has a right to get an independent report from another professional, if they feel necessary - especially if that involves the mental state of a patient that maybe partly due to the environment they are currently in. I think whatever the situation is that it would be useful for the parents to talk it through with the NAS, IPSEA or ACE to get their opinion on it.

 

Sally.Unless I have missed something here there are no grounds for breaking the over riding rule on confidentiality.I have done child protection training in the NHS as part of my community nurse training.I have not heard any evidence of a child protection issue

Bullying perhaps.But not I child protection issue.In any case if there was a child protection issue this should be dealt with via contacting the appropriate people according to the school child protection policy.It is a very serious allegation to be suggesting that a member of staff could be abusing children.

If you believe this is a case of significant harm then you should be advising that the case is reported to the individual within the school responsible for child protection.As an alternative the parent could contact Social Care [children] or the NSPCC also operate a helpline.

Just to be very clear this is not what I am suggesting as I do not have any information regarding the need to do so.Karen.

 

[Karen A]

What I meant by this is that if a child relates things which indicate that they have been abused, or have been harmed or are in danger of harming others, then that has to be reported to other agencies and investigated and confidentiality has to be broken. If it has been said to a professional they have a duty of care to report that. In this situation I don't know what has been disclosed. But confidentiality does not apply in all circumstances. If something has been disclosed that has to be acted on by professionals. That is the evidence I meant. I don't mean that means that what was disclosed is true. But if it is one of those situations where duty of care means that confidentiality has to be broken, then that is what has to happen.

 

I am sure that CAMHS staff are very aware of child protection issues and would report any risk of significant harm as is their duty.My problem is that you reccomended that a parent write to a member of CAMHS staff to tell them to report and incident.

CAMHS staff go to the high court and else where giving evidence as expert witnessess in some of the most complex child protection cases.They are the professionals who make decisions regarding whether parents are capable of provinding adequate care.

If you think that they neeed to be told about their duty of care to clients and child protection then you do not know very much about the service.

I probably sound cross which I am.

Parents on this Forum would be the first to be up in arms if a member of any public service reported information from a consultation in a way that broke all rules on confidentiality in order to make a clame about abuse that was without evidence about a parent.The children might well be taken into care while the case was investigated.

What you are suggesting would almost certsainly lead to the teacher concerned being suspended and the child involved having to make statements to social services [safe gaurding children] and possibly the police.

 

Edited to add.A couple of years ago I made a complaint regarding a member of school staff that I did not consider was a child protection issue.Children's Social Care considered that it could be.So I have been through the experience.It is extremely stressful for all concerned.The most stressful thing was knowing that my child might have to give statements to the police and social workers.Also that a teacher could be suspended over the issue.

Fortunately social services decided that the issue was not a safeguarding children issue and the case was dropped fairly quickly.Ben now gets on extrememely well with the member of staff concerned who unfortunately made a minor mistake during a stressful lesson.

 

I periodically wonder whether to return to work in the public sector.It is this level of distrust and the level of judgement that make me remember why I don't want to go back.Karen.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Alexmum.I just thought I would say.

If you wish to take the issue regarding the teacher further then you need to get hold of a copy of the school complaints procedure.Then document your complaint formally and in the first instance write to the head teacher.See what the policy says but you can probably escalate the complaint to the Chair of Governors if you do not obtain a satisfactory response.

Ensure that you keep a copy of the letter.If you wish you could also send it recorded delivery.Karen.

[LizK]

this is all getting a bit carried away now, surely!

 

thinking that a teacher is picking on you is a million miles away from abuse that would require a breach in confidentiality. CAMHS cannot go and accuse a teacher of abusing a child because he didn't like being told off and felt it was unfair, whether it was or wasn't! its not anything to do with CAMHS beyond them dealing with the mental distress it is causing the child (and no child likes being told off).

 

the rule you are suggesting is used for cases of severe mental and physical abuse, sexual abuse and other very serious circumstances where the child cannot make an informed decision and it is in their best interest that outside agencies prevent them being put at further risk. the topic of discussion is a parent who is concerned that a teacher has taken a dislike to her child and is telling him off more than other children. if you can't see the gulf between those two things, then i'm rather worried.

 

until there is a proper investigation into the events, rather than just one side of the story and a bit of hear-say and gossip, i think its all going a bit far and it seems you're all out for blood without considering (or rather, delibrately ignoring) the other side of the story.

 

Yes that is exactly right. If there were obvious child protection issues then they can breach confidentiality or become more directly involved.

They have plenty of cases where a child's mental health is adversely affected by outside influences be it bullying, warring parents, school issues, dysfunctional families, social circumstances but CAMHS can only really treat the child itself, they cannot deal with the underlying cause for ethical, legal, financial, logistical or practical reasons. They can advise the parent how to ameliorate the cause but cannot really get that involved directly. If they do it has to be handled very sensitively.

 

Also worth remembering that CAMHS is Health, school is Education and both have different remits. Education often don't listen to health and vice versa In my experience if you want school to do something getting an opinion from someone else from Education like an Autism Outreach teacher or possibly EP is listened to a bit more than that of a completely outside professional

 

Lx

 

[alexmum2]

Alexmum.I just thought I would say.

If you wish to take the issue regarding the teacher further then you need to get hold of a copy of the school complaints procedure.Then document your complaint formally and in the first instance write to the head teacher.See what the policy says but you can probably escalate the complaint to the Chair of Governors if you do not obtain a satisfactory response.

Ensure that you keep a copy of the letter.If you wish you could also send it recorded delivery.Karen.

Yes i will do that; at present i am waiting to see if the head of studies can make the necassary arrangements to move him if not then that would be my next step.

[alexmum2]

Thank you, Nobby...some excellent points.

 

I have stayed out of this thread so far, but I have felt extremely uncomfortable with the sentiments expressed concerning teachers, such as the use of the word 'evil', etc Previously on the forum we have always taken care not to discuss any professionals in this way.

 

Bid

Bid just to say that calling a So called "profesional " evil; to me isn't that bad as am not swearing and calling them abusive names; I said this because i feel that it is evil to bully a child with a disability, to the point where it is having an effect on there health it could also be called harassment; I work in an other school and I hear parents being being called every day by some members of staff. Not all teachers "professionals" are good at there job,there are those who in my opinion should never have become teachers.

[chris54]

I must admit that I have only dipped in and out of this topic but it seems to me that what we have here is a teacher who's teaching methods seem to date back to a previous age and do not work well with this individual child.

I do not think this is a child protection issue more a case of the teacher needing retraining and maybe considering a change in career direction.

 

It appears that some, if not all the other staff recognise that there is some sort of problem,but what to do about it.

 

Not an easy situating for the school management to be in. The easy option would be to sack her but I don't think they would get away with that one.

 

 

If I think back to when my son started at his present school the head said "I have put him into Mr I class as I think Mr I is the most suitable teacher for your son", You can extrapolate that that other teachers would be less suitable.

 

I remember back to one teacher my son had, lots of parent complained about him to the head but I thought he was a good teacher.

And yet another who's approach to teaching I did not like but others thought the sun shone out of her bxxx.

 

If you are the only parent complaining about this teacher it is unlikely to have any real positive outcome.

 

I do not have any answers.

[Karen A]

this is all getting a bit carried away now, surely!

 

thinking that a teacher is picking on you is a million miles away from abuse that would require a breach in confidentiality. CAMHS cannot go and accuse a teacher of abusing a child because he didn't like being told off and felt it was unfair, whether it was or wasn't! its not anything to do with CAMHS beyond them dealing with the mental distress it is causing the child (and no child likes being told off).

 

the rule you are suggesting is used for cases of severe mental and physical abuse, sexual abuse and other very serious circumstances where the child cannot make an informed decision and it is in their best interest that outside agencies prevent them being put at further risk. the topic of discussion is a parent who is concerned that a teacher has taken a dislike to her child and is telling him off more than other children. if you can't see the gulf between those two things, then i'm rather worried.

 

until there is a proper investigation into the events, rather than just one side of the story and a bit of hear-say and gossip, i think its all going a bit far and it seems you're all out for blood without considering (or rather, delibrately ignoring) the other side of the story.

 

i might have missed it, but has someone actually spoken to the teacher about the concerns? it may well be a simple misunderstanding.

 

HI.I know I am going on a bit but I am cross.

If the concerns were serious enough to warrent a child protection investigation then the correct course of action that many of us would have advised would have been that a compaint be made to the named individual within the school for child protection...who would then have decided whether the teacher should be interviewed.

I do not disagree with you at all.

I just think that there are many Forum members with exerience and professional knowledge.Nobody had suggested there could be a child protection issue.

Unless I am missing something this is so far fetched it almost beyond belief.

Perhaps every parent who has ever in the heat of the momment acted in a way that could be considered bullying should be investigated......That would certainly include me.

If we broaden the topic to include every parent that has ever done something that their child percieved as downright unfair I suspect it would include all of us. Karen.

 

[Karen A]

I must admit that I have only dipped in and out of this topic but it seems to me that what we have here is a teacher who's teaching methods seem to date back to a previous age and do not work well with this individual child.

I do not think this is a child protection issue more a case of the teacher needing retraining and maybe considering a change in career direction.

 

It appears that some, if not all the other staff recognise that there is some sort of problem,but what to do about it.

 

Not an easy situating for the school management to be in. The easy option would be to sack her but I don't think they would get away with that one.

 

Hi.If the parent makes a formal complaint then it will be invetigated.If disciplinary action is required then that is for the management to decide after a thorough investigation.The teacher will then have a right tp appeal and formal representation.

That is why I would suggest that a formal complaint is made.

 

[alexmum2]

this is all getting a bit carried away now, surely!

 

thinking that a teacher is picking on you is a million miles away from abuse that would require a breach in confidentiality. CAMHS cannot go and accuse a teacher of abusing a child because he didn't like being told off and felt it was unfair, whether it was or wasn't! its not anything to do with CAMHS beyond them dealing with the mental distress it is causing the child (and no child likes being told off).

 

the rule you are suggesting is used for cases of severe mental and physical abuse, sexual abuse and other very serious circumstances where the child cannot make an informed decision and it is in their best interest that outside agencies prevent them being put at further risk. the topic of discussion is a parent who is concerned that a teacher has taken a dislike to her child and is telling him off more than other children. if you can't see the gulf between those two things, then i'm rather worried.

 

until there is a proper investigation into the events, rather than just one side of the story and a bit of hear-say and gossip, i think its all going a bit far and it seems you're all out for blood without considering (or rather, delibrately ignoring) the other side of the story.

 

i might have missed it, but has someone actually spoken to the teacher about the concerns? it may well be a simple misunderstanding.

 

i'm also finding it a little hard to understand why the teacher would choose a quiet child to pick on, when there are apparently so many more disruptive children her frustration could be foucused on. when you've got a room full of people shouting at you, how likely are you to bother with the person sitting quietly?

Nobynobs:Bullying and haressment are all forms of abuse pure and simple; I'll tell you way i feel some teachers will pick on a queit child it's because they don't answer back! why would they pick on a quiet kid in the first place it's because they may notl ike that child( and it happens) for some teachers they don't or won't or can't understand ASD. to answer your question about contacting the teacher involved,I have asked this teacher to conatact me and 2 days later I'm still waiting; also what@s all this about hear say and gossip where on earth has that come from? As for the "other side of the story" like I said i am still waitng to hear it.

[Karen A]

Yes i will do that; at present i am waiting to see if the head of studies can make the necassary arrangements to move him if not then that would be my next step.

 

I just wanted to be clear that if you are sufficiently concerned about this teacher's conduct then the appropriate course of action would be to make a Formal complaint.

If you have serious concerns about professional misconduct on the part of a specific teacher there are procedures in place.

If you have concerns about child protection there will also be a procedure in place.

I am attempting to ensure I have given you the information because only you really know how serious you consider your concerns to be.

I did not want you to think I am not concerned.However there are ways of going about things that are more helpful than others.

Karen.

 

[Karen A]

 

Nobynobs:Bullying and haressment are all forms of abuse pure and simple; I'll tell you way i feel some teachers will pick on a queit child it's because they don't answer back! why would they pick on a quiet kid in the first place it's because they may notl ike that child( and it happens) for some teachers they don't or won't or can't understand ASD. to answer your question about contacting the teacher involved,I have asked this teacher to conatact me and 2 days later I'm still waiting; also what@s all this about hear say and gossip where on earth has that come from? As for the "other side of the story" like I said i am still waitng to hear it.

 

If you are saying that this teacher is being abusive then you need to make a Formal complaint.

As I have just advised you you should also consider whether you consider this to be a child protection issue.If you are making allegations of abuse then you are in effect saying that it is.

You cannot come on an open Forum and continue to make allegations that are so serious without taking official action that would enable the teacher to have representation and for a thorough investigation to take place.If you are really so concerned then surely you have a duty to report your allegations fomally.

Karen.

 

 

[baddad]

I must admit that I have only dipped in and out of this topic but it seems to me that what we have here is a teacher who's teaching methods seem to date back to a previous age and do not work well with this individual child.

I do not think this is a child protection issue more a case of the teacher needing retraining and maybe considering a change in career direction.

 

It appears that some, if not all the other staff recognise that there is some sort of problem,but what to do about it.

 

Not an easy situating for the school management to be in. The easy option would be to sack her but I don't think they would get away with that one.

 

Hi Chris -

 

I'm trying to keep out of this thread, but finding the absolute, blind prejudices involved too hard to ignore:

No it doesn't seem as though we have a teacher who is 'harping back to a different age'... I was taught in a very different age - but the teaching style then was not to ignore the children shouting and playing about at the front while systematically bullying the lone, quiet, well behaved child at the back, or to select a child on the first day of term to be a victim of that campaign...

That might have happened in some public school's (I don't know - but i think the fagging system mentioned in Tom Brown's School Days sounds a little bit like that, but i'm not sure that extended up to the teaching staff(?) wasn't that more of a 'head of house/senior boys' thing?).

I don't think there is anything to indicate that the teacher needs retraining, or to consider a career change or to be sacked in the OP either. She may be a poor teacher, she may need any/all of the things you mention, but equally she may not be any of those things...

 

different teaching methods... a head saying that one teacher might be a 'good choice' for a particular student doesn't mean that the others will be bad choices... in life we are likely to get on better with some people than others - that doesn't mean that the ones we don't get on well with are bad people. Similarly, all we have to go on is the OP's interpretation of a single teacher saying 'I have different teaching methods' (which may actually be less appropriate but more appealing to the boy? Who knows? I'm not saying that IS the case, but it's possible), and a TA who, when put on the spot, may have said something she'll possibly come to regret later because it's been totally misinterpreted.

 

This thread has moved from some people suggesting that a calm and reasonable approach to a possible situation in school is better than an angry confrontation, to some members responding as though abuse has taken place. Even worse, it is the people proposing 'calm and reasonable' who are being negatively judged.

 

Hopefully my last post in this thread...

 

beam me up, Scotty...

 

L&P

 

BD

[Karen A]

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/School...hool/DG_4016106

This is a link to the dfes site.It provides information regarding making a formal complaint.Karen.

[Karen A]

Bid just to say that calling a So called "profesional " evil; to me isn't that bad as am not swearing and calling them abusive names; I said this because i feel that it is evil to bully a child with a disability, to the point where it is having an effect on there health it could also be called harassment; I work in an other school and I hear parents being being called every day by some members of staff. Not all teachers "professionals" are good at there job,there are those who in my opinion should never have become teachers.

 

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/dd-help.htm

 

Hi.If you think that your child is being discriminated against by the school in relation to their disability the other formal channel you could consider would be to apply to SENDIST.This link provides information.

 

If you really think that school is having a serious impact on your child's mental health then you can request that your GP writes a letter saying that they are medically unfit.I have taken this course of action on three occasions in the last few years.I would not keep my child at a school if I felt so strongly that it was having a serious negative impact on their health.However on each occasion in the last few years I have used official channels.Karen.

 

[chris54]

Hi Chris -

 

I'm trying to keep out of this thread, but finding the absolute, blind prejudices involved too hard to ignore:

No it doesn't seem as though we have a teacher who is 'harping back to a different age'... I was taught in a very different age - but the teaching style then was not to ignore the children shouting and playing about at the front while systematically bullying the lone, quiet, well behaved child at the back, or to select a child on the first day of term to be a victim of that campaign...

That might have happened in some public school's (I don't know - but i think the fagging system mentioned in Tom Brown's School Days sounds a little bit like that, but i'm not sure that extended up to the teaching staff(?) wasn't that more of a 'head of house/senior boys' thing?).

I don't think there is anything to indicate that the teacher needs retraining, or to consider a career change or to be sacked in the OP either. She may be a poor teacher, she may need any/all of the things you mention, but equally she may not be any of those things...

 

different teaching methods... a head saying that one teacher might be a 'good choice' for a particular student doesn't mean that the others will be bad choices... in life we are likely to get on better with some people than others - that doesn't mean that the ones we don't get on well with are bad people. Similarly, all we have to go on is the OP's interpretation of a single teacher saying 'I have different teaching methods' (which may actually be less appropriate but more appealing to the boy? Who knows? I'm not saying that IS the case, but it's possible), and a TA who, when put on the spot, may have said something she'll possibly come to regret later because it's been totally misinterpreted.

 

This thread has moved from some people suggesting that a calm and reasonable approach to a possible situation in school is better than an angry confrontation, to some members responding as though abuse has taken place. Even worse, it is the people proposing 'calm and reasonable' who are being negatively judged.

 

Hopefully my last post in this thread...

 

beam me up, Scotty...

 

L&P

 

BD

Hi

 

Well that's telling me.

 

A bit of miss quoting there but I can take it.

 

When I went to school all those centuries ago, the situation described in the opening post was common place. We were all thankful if it was not your turn. When I was in infant school I had a teacher who thought my inability to read could be solved by smacking me. There was no point in telling your parents, Teach was god and could do no wrong.

That is about all I can remember about infant school, being made to stand in front of the class most days, everyone laughing at me and then being smacked. To this day I have and uneasy felling when going into a school.

 

Maybe the word retraining is the wrong term, what I am saying is that this teacher needs to be made aware of the consequences of her actions. And if she does not have the right temperament (I hope thats the right word) to teach surely it would be better to chang career.

[baddad]

Hi

 

Well that's telling me.

 

A bit of miss quoting there but I can take it.

 

When I went to school all those centuries ago, the situation described in the opening post was common place. We were all thankful if it was not your turn. When I was in infant school I had a teacher who thought my inability to read could be solved by smacking me. There was no point in telling your parents, Teach was god and could do no wrong.

That is about all I can remember about infant school, being made to stand in front of the class most days, everyone laughing at me and then being smacked. To this day I have and uneasy felling when going into a school.

 

Maybe the word retraining is the wrong term, what I am saying is that this teacher needs to be made aware of the consequences of her actions. And if she does not have the right temperament (I hope thats the right word) to teach surely it would be better to chang career.

 

Hi Chris - sorry, if i'm being a bit pedantic, and, yes, i do ackowledge that smacking etc was a 'standard' method of discipline way back when. My own bum was very regularly visited by the teacher's cane, and i remember in particular a round ruler used to crack kids (often me - I'm afraid i wasn't a model student!) over the knuckles. Ironically, the two teachers i remember as most helpful to me at primary school are the lovely lady I had in year 3 and the man i then thought hated me but - with adult perceptions - realise was going out of his way to help me. Not that i am in any way endorsing these kinds of punishments, or suggesting that the teacher I thought hated me may be relevent in any way to the perceptions of the teacher involved in the scenario detailed in the opening post, but personally i wasn't emotionally scarred by them - they were just 'how it was'...

You've actually made one of the very points i was trying to make:

 

We were all thankful if it was not your turn

 

This is completely different to what is being suggested in the OP - the absolute opposite, in fact. You are describing a situation where all the children were 'brought to task' if their behaviour was considered inappropriate (the italics denote that the behaviour wasn't necessarily inappropriate, just inappropriate in the 'eye of the beholder' and/or of the time), while the OP describes a scenario where disruptive and rowdy/aggressive behaviours by the class in general are ignored in favour of punishing the single child in the room who is not engaged in those rowdy/aggressive/disruptive behaviours, a child who has been singled out 'from day one' for exactly that sort of victimisation...

 

Your final sentence sums it all up:

IF she doesn't...

That 'if' is not even being considered as a possibility by the OP or those who have joined in condemning this woman as 'Evil'.

 

I don't know what your interpretation of the word 'evil' is, but it does not, in any way, seem appropriate to me as a description for a woman who may be making some unhelpful decisions when disciplining one child out of 32 or so in her class.

Evil is a term used to describe murderous dictators - the sickest minds that humanity has ever produced. Does that, and the kind of venom associated with the use of that word, really seem appropriate in this case?

 

I hope you don't see this as 'that's me told', which implies a degree of aggression on my part that really isn't there.

 

As i said, hopefully I'll be able to leave this thread for good soon, but I did want to clear up the 'that's me told' aspect, which i hope this response has done.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited April 30, 2009 by baddad

[NickyB]

Bid just to say that calling a So called "profesional " evil; to me isn't that bad as am not swearing and calling them abusive names;

 

I haven't joined this thread so far, as many others have said what I'm feeling far more eloquently than I can, but I did want to say that if someone was branding me 'evil', I would consider that to be extremely offensive and abusive. Even more so if I had not been given the chance to give my side of events.

 

 

[lisac]

Ok, but cant you tell that alexmum was angry and venting off steam?? Someone had seriously upset her son for gods sake! Does she really need to be made to feel any worse because she used an over the top word? Surely we've all said things in the heat of the moment in real life and on a forum, Crikey , burn her at the stake eh !

[Karen A]

Ok, but cant you tell that alexmum was angry and venting off steam?? Someone had seriously upset her son for gods sake! Does she really need to be made to feel any worse because she used an over the top word? Surely we've all said things in the heat of the moment in real life and on a forum, Crikey , burn her at the stake eh !

 

Does anyone have a problem with alexmum being angry and letting off steam ?

I don't.I certainly cannot say I have not being seriously angry at times.I have frequently said things that I later regreted as some who have been here for very long will be aware of.

 

I am still more likely than most to become very stroppy during stressful conversations.

However there are ways to go about dealing with the issue.I have learned the hard way after almost being excluded from the school premisis.It benefited nobody least of all my children when the anger was taken out in ways that just inflamed the situation.

 

If alexmum just wanted to vent and was not hoping for constuctive advice then I am sorry I was not aware of that.

To be completely honest if that was the case I wish I had known earlier.I have plenty of things I could do with my time rather attempt to post constructive advice if all that is required is a joining in of a group moan.

 

[NickyB]

Ok, but cant you tell that alexmum was angry and venting off steam?? Someone had seriously upset her son for gods sake! Does she really need to be made to feel any worse because she used an over the top word? Surely we've all said things in the heat of the moment in real life and on a forum, Crikey , burn her at the stake eh !

 

 

The quote I was replying to was from a post made 3 days after the OP, and in reply to another comment.

 

It didn't appear to have been made 'in the heat of the moment', as it was in relation to a comment already made.

 

I am very sad that this wonderful forum seems to be degenerating into a place where people are not able to freely express their views. We should all be able to give our views and advice, as long as we are respectful - there will always be differing viewpoints, but it seems to me that some people will not allow others to disagree without it becoming personal and in some cases downright aggressive.

 

I am leaving this thread now, and indeed the forum for a while

[baddad]

Ok, but cant you tell that alexmum was angry and venting off steam?? Someone had seriously upset her son for gods sake! Does she really need to be made to feel any worse because she used an over the top word? Surely we've all said things in the heat of the moment in real life and on a forum, Crikey , burn her at the stake eh !

 

I was just going to post on a similar issue in another thread, but will put a brief response here too...

there is a huge double-standard operating on the forum these days. It is perfectly acceptable, it seems, to be - how shall I put this - less than thoughtful about how you say things as long as you pick the right targets or topics.

On the other hand, a very reasoned and reasonable observation made by someone with an opinion that is contrary to prevailing opinion will be shot down in flames - often with open aggression - on the grounds that the opinion is 'offensive' or 'hurtful'...

If we take this topic as a case in point, it is perfectly reasonable for alexmum to brand a teacher as 'evil' and to suggest that she has systematically targeted a child for bullying, because she is 'letting off steam', but not for several members to identify the inherent unfairness of the value judgement she (and those who have endorsed her views) have made on the basis of what appears to be very little evidence.

If 'letting off steam' justifies extremes of language or prejudice, can I have a go please? Ahhhh. Thought not...

 

I don't have a problem with 'letting off steam' at all. I do have a problem with professionals (or autistic people, or...) being demonised.

 

As for 'burn her at the stake' isn't that exactly what is happening here to the teacher? In the words of Eric Idle in 'The Holy Grail' - "Well she turned me into a newt"! (That's an attempt at humour, BTW - not sarcasm or anything like that.)

 

And it wasn't just an 'over the top word in the heat of the moment' - this thread has been running for what - 3 days?

But anyway, that's a general observation in a specific thread, and that's not necessarily the best place for it, but it did seem apt at this point.

I'll now quit this thread for the other one.

 

L&P

 

(As always)

 

BD

 

PS: Nicky B: just seen your last post. Hope that's a very, VERY short absence from the forum. i think the above demonstrates how much I echo your sentiments...

 

[alexmum2]

Ok, but cant you tell that alexmum was angry and venting off steam?? Someone had seriously upset her son for gods sake! Does she really need to be made to feel any worse because she used an over the top word? Surely we've all said things in the heat of the moment in real life and on a forum, Crikey , burn her at the stake eh !

Lisac yes I was extemely angry and yes like you say I posted this thread to get advice and let of steamIsn't that what it's for? NickB has now stated she has left the forum so I am unable to defend my use of the word evil to her. Not that I feel I should as that is how I feel about this person and their teaching methods towards my son; she stated that she didn't want to join the thread well then she shouldn't if all she is going to do is criticise my choice of words, also has she not realised this person has no idea that I've branded her behaviour towards my son as evil and to say that the forum is degenerating is a very critical comment to make and to me serves no purpose. thanks for your support anyway seems to me some people like to give negative comments but cant take them.

[NobbyNobbs]

Nobynobs:Bullying and haressment are all forms of abuse pure and simple; I'll tell you way i feel some teachers will pick on a queit child it's because they don't answer back! why would they pick on a quiet kid in the first place it's because they may notl ike that child( and it happens) for some teachers they don't or won't or can't understand ASD. to answer your question about contacting the teacher involved,I have asked this teacher to conatact me and 2 days later I'm still waiting; also what@s all this about hear say and gossip where on earth has that come from? As for the "other side of the story" like I said i am still waitng to hear it.

i haven't got to the end of the post yet, i have to reply to this now. the abuse i am referring to, the abuse that warrants a breach of confidentiality is NOT remotely near a teacher telling a child off more than he would like.

 

when you work with children who have genuinely been seriously abused you start to see the over-use of the term, along with other wonders such as 'traumatized'. i'm not going to get into an argument about what abuse is. i already know more about it than anyone would want to. i am simply saying that a teacher telling off a child ( and bear in mind there is no current evidence that it wasn't justified) isn't serious abuse.

 

as for the teacher not replying in two days... well, she does have a job to do, she doesn't just teach your son. make an appointment.

[Karen A]

i haven't got to the end of the post yet, i have to reply to this now. the abuse i am referring to, the abuse that warrants a breach of confidentiality is NOT remotely near a teacher telling a child off more than he would like.

 

when you work with children who have genuinely been seriously abused you start to see the over-use of the term, along with other wonders such as 'traumatized'. i'm not going to get into an argument about what abuse is. i already know more about it than anyone would want to. i am simply saying that a teacher telling off a child ( and bear in mind there is no current evidence that it wasn't justified) isn't serious abuse.

 

as for the teacher not replying in two days... well, she does have a job to do, she doesn't just teach your son. make an appointment.

 

Hi.I will second that.Child abuse and childhood trauma are thankfully things that few people have to deal with.Having experienced childhood trauma that impacts me to this day I have to say that dramatic use of the term just belittles the experience of those who have been through it.

 

The teacher may well not have replied because the case is being investigated.Most complaints procedures allow about a week I think.

 

[Kathryn]

This is not the first time such a thread has degenerated into a bad tempered scrap.

 

People should feel free to rant against the system or unnamed individuals if they want to, to offer their honest opinion, and to accept that there may be a wide range of views expressed. Generally this is the case on the forum.

 

However..

 

sometimes it's not so much what's said as the way it's expressed. There have been some very judgemental and personal comments made on both sides of this argument. For heaven's sake, cut each other a bit of slack! There are bigger battles to fight, surely?

 

Alexmum I hope you've found something useful among the comments on this thread and I hope you get the situation at school sorted out soon.

 

Nicky, I hope you come back soon

 

Thread closed, as I think the discussion has well and truly run its course

 

Kathryn