6 year old daughter failed sally anne test

[Sooze2]

Ok, today I went on a course for parents of children newly diagnosed with ASD for my son. They showed us how to do the Sally Anne test, I have had worries about one of my twins for a very long time but decided that she is probably just immature and maybe copying my son's behaviour. Her Identical twin is very bright and much much more mature than her and also my son who is 3 years older!

 

Anyway, I did the test this evening after some of the conversations going on at the tea table and her seeming to be hearing completely different conversations than we were actually having!

 

When I asked dd 1 to tell me where Sally would look for the ball dd 1 said she would look in Anne's box because dd1 saw me put it in there so that is where the doll would look (silly mummy!)! Daughter 2 said Sally would look in the box she had left it in without even thinking about it. My husband was there when I did it and I made each daughter come into the room on their own when I did it. There was no pass or fail - I said I was just wondering what they thought.

 

Twas really weird!

 

So what do I do now?

 

Editing to say - it's good to be back.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Sooze2

[Karen A]

How old are the twins please ?

Are they six

[Emma_74]

what is the sally test? i've never heard of it:S

[Sooze2]

The twins are 6. Must put them back on my signature.

[Sooze2]

Would most kids of 6 say what she did. I'm probably looking for things that aren't there and her sister is probably just more mature, do you think?

 

Just musing really.

[baddad]

hi - working from memory here so if i've got it wrong someone may be able to put me right...

But i think the test was originally conducted with children aged 4 - 5 and that around 15 - 20% of 'normal' (whatever!) kids failed it too, and some autistic kids (but at a much lower than average percentage) didn't.

 

Dunno what that means for the 15-20% - whether they had a TOM problem but not autism or whether there is a 'catch up age' when they would all be expected to get it or any variation thereof - but i think that's fairly accurate for the original test statistics.

 

One other factor is that it may be the second girl was less attentive when you were 'setting it up' and missed a cue... almost impossible to know in a home environment with a small kid whether they're fully engaged or whether they're thinking 'that bird singing in the garden sounds happy' or 'I hope this doesn't take long, my biscuits on the kitchen table'!

 

Hope that's helpful

 

L&P

 

BD

[sonj186]

Ive just been on wikipedia this is what they say -

 

 

Test description

The experimenter uses two dolls, "Sally" and "Anne". Sally has a basket; Anne has a box. Experimenters show their subjects (usually children) a simple skit, in which Sally puts a marble in her basket and then leaves the scene. While Sally is away and cannot watch, Anne takes the marble out of Sally's basket and puts it into her box. Sally then returns and the children are asked where they think she will look for her marble. Children are said to "pass" the test if they understand that Sally will most likely look inside her basket before realizing that her marble isn't there.

 

Normal children under the age of four, along with most autistic children (of all ages), will answer "Anne's box," seemingly unaware that Sally does not know her marble has been moved.

 

In the Baron-Cohen study of theory of mind in autism, 61 children—20 of whom were diagnosed autistic under established criteria, 14 with Down's Syndrome and 27 of whom were determined as clinically unimpaired—were tested with "Sally" and "Anne".[2]

 

In the test process, after introducing the dolls, the child is asked the control question of recalling their names (the Naming Question). A short skit is then enacted; Sally takes a marble and hides it in her basket. She then 'leaves' the room and goes for a walk. Whilst she is away, and therefore unbeknownst to her, Anne takes the marble out of Sally's basket and puts it in her own box. Sally is then reintroduced and the child is asked the key question, the Belief Question: 'Where will Sally look for her marble?'

 

The control Reality Question and Memory Question are then asked;

 

The Reality Question—"Where is the marble really?"—ensures the child had paid attention to the transfer of the marble from the basket to the box. It also helps in determining any manifestation of negativism in the child's answers.

The Memory Question—"Where was the marble in the beginning?"—establishes that the child had not forgotten where Sally had left her marble.

For the children to 'pass' this test they must answer the Belief Question correctly, by indicating that Sally believes that the marble is in her own basket, continuous with her perspective although not with the child's own. If the child cannot take an alternative perspective, they will indicate that Sally has cause to believe—as they do—that the marble has moved. To pass, the children have to show that Sally has her own beliefs that may not correlate with reality.

 

The result of the Baron-Cohen study was that 23 of the 27 normal children (85%) passed the Belief Question, 12 of the 14 Down's Syndrome children (86%) passed and, by contrast, 16 of the 20 autistic children (80%) failed the test

 

i think i will give it a go with cam, he is 6 though and has a dx but i think it will be interesting to see what he comes back with.

[Emma_74]

Thankyou Sonj186

[Sally44]

I did this test with my son age 5 and he passed it. I did it again recently and he failed it. But it is interesting to note the questions you can ask before hand to establish that they were paying attention in the first place, so I might do it again. And you have to be very careful of the language you use because those with ASDs can sometimes have difficulties with pronouns, so it is better to always use the dolls name and not he, she, it, you etc.

 

There is also a similar test you can do with something like a smarties tube. You have 2 dolls and a tube of smarties and you show both dolls that the tube contains smarties. Then you remove one of the dolls and take the smarties out of the tube and replace it with something else eg. rice. Then you ask the child what will dolly A think is in the tube (this is the doll that saw the smarties taken out and rice being put in) and the child should answer 'rice'; then you ask what will dolly B think is in the tube (and that dolly didn't see the smarties being taken out and replaced with rice and the child should say 'smarties').

 

[Sooze2]

Yes, I used only the dolls names all the way through and they were both fascinated with what I was doing so payed attention. Its just interesting that one twin got it right and the other got it so wrong.

 

The whole twin thing is so interesting, how they are Identical genetically (dna tested) but so very different in lots of ways.

[tjw]

hi sooze

george age 6 did the test at cahms 2 wks ago and answered box, which the nurse said is a asd way of answering the question, i thought it was a realy good test, i had never heard about it before that day. george was dx on friday with asd by the consultant at cahms. she also did alot of test which were photos of children with grandparents in they gardens and asked george what he thought was going on in the photo and he just stated that it was a photo of kids with people didnt mention anything about background and when asked where the children were he said on a bench, the answer is apprently in the garden with grandparents, but to george they were just sat on a bench but must say he wasnt wrong, but i think some of these test are very good.

theresa x

[Karen A]

Hi.I am not an expert.However I think another thing that would need to be taken into account is whether the twins were premature or whether there have beeen questions regarding any other slight developmental delay.I am not thinking necessarily about enough of a delay to be a cause for concern.It is not unusuall for twins to be premature.

So the figure badad gives may not apply as accurately if the birth was premature or there were difficulties around the time of birth such as a baby needing special care.

With twins one may have an easier time than the other around the time of birth and this could be a possible cause for the difference.

 

It might be worth having a talk with your health visitor or GP.

The difference between the twins could be related to other things than ASD such as slight hearing loss. I think that it would be worth obtaining an opinion even just to put your mind at rest.

I edited after reading that you have been concerned for a while.It would certainly be worth talking to the GP to put your mind at reast.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Karen A

[Sooze2]

Thanks Karen, they were almost 5 weeks early and good weights for twins at around 5.5lbs each, it was a normal birth after a 3 hour labour and we were all home 4 days after with no special care. Amazing really! D was and extremely easy baby who never cried, her sister cried at feeding time so I fed her first then D was fed after the other one had finished because she never damanded anything! She didn't talk till well over 2 and the others just talked for her. She was very very sweet indead and so easy!

 

 

[baddad]

I did this test with my son age 5 and he passed it. I did it again recently and he failed it. But it is interesting to note the questions you can ask before hand to establish that they were paying attention in the first place, so I might do it again. And you have to be very careful of the language you use because those with ASDs can sometimes have difficulties with pronouns, so it is better to always use the dolls name and not he, she, it, you etc.

 

There is also a similar test you can do with something like a smarties tube. You have 2 dolls and a tube of smarties and you show both dolls that the tube contains smarties. Then you remove one of the dolls and take the smarties out of the tube and replace it with something else eg. rice. Then you ask the child what will dolly A think is in the tube (this is the doll that saw the smarties taken out and rice being put in) and the child should answer 'rice'; then you ask what will dolly B think is in the tube (and that dolly didn't see the smarties being taken out and replaced with rice and the child should say 'smarties').

 

Hi sally - the trouble with duplicating the test is that the child may remember the end result, so if you can find a variation it's probably better... There was another one i remember (possibly more boy orientated) with a lego 'cops and robbers' scene. You put the policeman behind a 'hill' and the offence takes place - and then ask the child 'what would the policeman do next?'

Can't remember the 'set up' etc but you may find it by googling....

 

L&P

 

BD

 

[bid]

A few years ago I was sent on an ASD training course, and the speaker described a variation of this test, but using a handbag and pen.

 

Duh...I realised afterwards that as she was describing the test I mentally picked the 'wrong' answer!

 

Bid

Edited April 29, 2009 by bid

[baddad]

A few years ago I was sent on an ASD training course, and the speaker described a variation of this test, but using a handbag and pen.

 

Duh...I realised afterwards that as she was describing the test I mentally picked the 'wrong' answer!

 

Bid

 

 

yes, but only because you wanted the handbag - that was covetousness, not autism!

[bid]

yes, but only because you wanted the handbag - that was covetousness, not autism!

 

 

Bid

 

[giggles]

I did this test on my son.... who I think is far too young for it being almost 4.... but all he did was steal the marble Maybe I will try it in a few years lol

[Karen A]

I did this test on my son.... who I think is far too young for it being almost 4.... but all he did was steal the marble Maybe I will try it in a few years lol

 

He obviously has severe antisocial and delinquent tendencies.....think an urgent ASBO may be required.

 

[giggles]

It's the scouser in him Karen!!! lol

[Diane]

My DS has passed this test but is not able to generalise so when in conversation with others or situations he thinks they know what he knows and thinks. It may be that he is high functioning and ina controlled environment is able to give the correct response but once in situation where he is anxious he loses this ability.