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Salbaggio

Doesn't want to write

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There are so many issues going around in my head right now that this post may be rather garbled so I apologise in advance!

 

I have been called in to meet with my 6yr old sons teacher 2 weeks in a row to discuss the fact that he avoids writing at any cost possible. He avoids it himself and distracts and chats to the other children which is clearly starting to tick his teacher off. He wanders off both mentally and literally and she says he will only knuckle down and write when she is right there sitting on his shoulder, nagging him. He is one of the smartest kids in the school so she shouldn't have to give him all this extra attention when there are other kids right there who struggle to read basic words!

 

We are still ploughing through the diagnosis process and he is going to be observed in a fortnight right inside the classroom and I am hoping that something might come out of that.

 

However in the meantime I really get the impression that his teacher either does not think there is a diagnosis to be had or is uneducated with regard to ways to help him.

 

So my big dilema is (and I think this is a very popular problem for parents of the undiagnosed child!!!) if there is "nothing wrong" with him, he needs to knuckle down, do as he is told and do his writing nicely and when told to do so. But I really feel that he displays so many autistic traits and is otherwise such a compliant little boy that he isn't being deliberatly awkward when he wanders off to do other things. I don't think he sees the merit in writing, it is all in his head so why write it down?

 

He looked so sad when his teacher was talking to him about it and now just won't talk to me about it. She says that he was giving her "attitude" but I saw it differently. I am not the sort of parent who is blind to her childrens wrong-doing but I wonder if it is me on this occassion who is seeing it wrong.

 

I am just not sure that his teacher is on board with me AAAHHHHHAAAAHHGGGGRRRRRRR!Please someone help me!!!!

 

 

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Hi.There was another post about a child that had difficulty with handwriting the other day.A few people came up with ideas.

I will see if I can find it. :) Karen.

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Thanks for replying Karen

 

The problem is not so much to do with his physical ability, his fine motor skills are alright, it is the way he zones out and acts as though he has all the time in the world.

 

I don't think I am very good at describing the problem, sorry guys!

 

I am just frustrated because it is one small area in his schoolwork that his teacher is finding him difficult and she wants me to suggest ways to get him to improve and I feel a bit lost!

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My son was and is very much the same.He does find writing difficult as he is dx dyspraxic and dyslexic.However the real problem fo him lies in the sensory issues of the classroom environment.He works much better in a quieter less visually distracting environment.He is now 13 and his TA only mentioned last week that during a science lesson she tried to get him to work more independently.However a couple of minutes and he was off into space, he totally zones out and tunes out.Wish I had an answer to your sons problems, best wishes suzex.

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Thanks for replying Karen

 

The problem is not so much to do with his physical ability, his fine motor skills are alright, it is the way he zones out and acts as though he has all the time in the world.

 

I don't think I am very good at describing the problem, sorry guys!

 

I am just frustrated because it is one small area in his schoolwork that his teacher is finding him difficult and she wants me to suggest ways to get him to improve and I feel a bit lost!

 

Does it just happen in literacy ? Karen.

 

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I think you've got to try to find the right balance and work with the school/teacher to find that and build from it.

You've said he can write okay and his motor skills aren't a problem but there could be things going on that aren't 'visible'. While it might not effect the finished work, he could have poor muscle tone or something which makes writing uncomfortable. How does he do with other things - is he as physically 'strong' as the other kids (monkey bars, things like that?)

slanting boards and or big grip pencils might help if that is an issue.

If there isn't a physical problem, and he only appears reluctant to writing and not to other tasks then in fairness to the teacher it is him needing to learn to 'conform' to expectations, though how he learns that needs to be a consideration.

Clear targets (even if they are less than other children are producing) are the starting point, possibly with a reward scheme for meeting those targets and sanctions if he doesn't. you can build up from there.

One issue I had with my son (who has dyspraxia/fine motor problems too) was that he couldn't produce the quantity of work and became stressed and unhappy and generally negative. I emphasised the need for quality rather than quantity and targets were set on that basis. He also worked with me at home, away from the pressure of trying to keep up with other kids...

Dunno if the 'tips' I posted are in the thread karen found, but they are definitely on the boards somewhere and worth a look...

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Will he write on on a computer?

 

As well as physical aspects of writing he may have problems sequencing his thoughts or retaining them in his head in a coherant form to get them down on paper. Is he reluctant to do any sort of writing or is it a problem more with creative writing? Is he distracted by the sensory environment around him? Is it behavioural and that he simply doesn't see the point of writing.

 

He sounds a bit like my son in getting dressed. He can do it but needs you to stand over him and chivvy and cajole him. Otherwise he will put on half an item of clothing and then drift off and forget the rest! It's hard work. Using simple and immediate rewards does help though - a bit!

 

Lx

Edited by LizK

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Or maybe he just doesn't see the point of it. If he is bright and he can write he may feel 'why do I have to do something I already know'. Or if he doesn't know 'why' he has to do writing he just may not be motivated. Or is it the following of the verbal instructions that he cannot do, so he doesn't actually know what he should be doing? Or the sensory side of things could be distracting him. There really are so many things and someone needs to have a look to see where it is breaking down.

But can you confirm back that he can write. Can he write from memory or does he have to copy? Does he formulate his letters correctly or does he appear not to know where to start. Is the writing something to do with 'imagination' and he struggles with that and therefore cannot think of what to write? Can he follow verbal instructions and 3-4 step sequences?

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Thank you one and all for your comments.

 

I believe in my heart that the problem is that he just doesn't see the point of writing things down but he has not been able to tell me in his own words what the problem is yet and I am often surprised once he finally opens up! Tomorrow we are going to have some alone time to talk.

 

I feel very strongly that a 6yr can not just opt out of the things that he doesn't like BUT on the other hand there are so many problems that have been easier to overcome once I have relooked at the situation as though we were further down the line with a firm diagnosis.

 

Both his teacher and I have reasoned with him as to why he should concentrate on his literacy work and why it is unfair to talk to and distract the other children and he really takes it on board and agrees at that moment but evidently when it is next literacy time he isn't changing.

 

He defiantely can write, the other week he decided to write a book and sat down and wrote 4 entirely fictional pages, a really lovely story so it is not about ability. He writes letters correctly but very lazily and hurriedly with no spaces in between unless I sit next to him and remind him after each and every word.

 

He normally can follow reams of instructions but the only way I can describe this is that I truly believe he is not being deliberatly disobedient but it just seems to slip immediately off his radar and his teacher is unable/unwilling to give him extra time/attention for literacy as she believes he is making a choice to not do his literacy work. I'm just not sure :(

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What are you thinking off when you talk about a diagnosis, are you thinking ASD or ADD??

If he has written pages of fiction (and it really is fictional stuff and not something he has heard or seen before), then he maybe demonstrating imagination to such an extent (you'd know better than me), that an ASD might not be the right diagnosis. I know that many children with ASDs can show some imagination. So it isn't a yes or no thing, but usually on a sliding scale, or the ability to use imagination is in one area and not applied in other areas. He also sounds like he could be impulsive. There is alot of cross over between the two and it is not uncommon to have traits of both.

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Thank you one and all for your comments.

 

I believe in my heart that the problem is that he just doesn't see the point of writing things down but he has not been able to tell me in his own words what the problem is yet and I am often surprised once he finally opens up! Tomorrow we are going to have some alone time to talk.

 

I feel very strongly that a 6yr can not just opt out of the things that he doesn't like BUT on the other hand there are so many problems that have been easier to overcome once I have relooked at the situation as though we were further down the line with a firm diagnosis.

 

Both his teacher and I have reasoned with him as to why he should concentrate on his literacy work and why it is unfair to talk to and distract the other children and he really takes it on board and agrees at that moment but evidently when it is next literacy time he isn't changing.

 

He defiantely can write, the other week he decided to write a book and sat down and wrote 4 entirely fictional pages, a really lovely story so it is not about ability. He writes letters correctly but very lazily and hurriedly with no spaces in between unless I sit next to him and remind him after each and every word.

 

He normally can follow reams of instructions but the only way I can describe this is that I truly believe he is not being deliberatly disobedient but it just seems to slip immediately off his radar and his teacher is unable/unwilling to give him extra time/attention for literacy as she believes he is making a choice to not do his literacy work. I'm just not sure :(

 

Hi again -

 

from everything i've read above it really does seem to come down to this (and sorry if it's not what you want to hear):

There is no physical impediment to him putting more effort into his literacy.

There is no psychological impediment to him putting more effort into his literacy.

There is no conceptual impediment to him putting more effort into his literacy.

There is no intellectual impediment to him putting more effort into his literacy.

The only impediment to it seems to be that he doesn't see the point or value of putting more effort into his literacy.

 

The issue of whether he is autistic or neurotypical is a moot point: There is no good reason for not having exactly the same expectations of him as of the rest of his class. Exempting him from those expectations purely on the basis that he might be autistic is not in his long term best interests, and sets a precedent for 'autism' to be a good enough reason for exempting him from developing other necessary life skills that he is perfectly capable of developing. Nobody should 'force' an autistic person to do something they cannot do or have unreasonable expectations of them to achieve things that cause them severe emotional distress. There is nothing in your posts to indicate that either of these factors apply for your son in this scenario, and therefore - whether he sees the value or not (he is only six, and can't possibly have a 'handle' on that) - you should be safeguarding his future opportunities by taking the 'option' out of his hands.

 

hope that helps

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Hi Is your son in year 1 and where abouts in the year is his birthday ?

I was just wondering.It is not unusual for boys to be unmotivated in writing in the foundation stage.There are other more important active priorities for them like running around outside.So if your son is one of the younger boys in his year that is worth bearing in mind.I am not a teacher so I am sure those who are will put me right if I am off the mark :)

I think in many schools literacy in KS1 involves lots of activities that develop communication and literacy skills generally.If your son is expected to sit and do lots of writing then it may be that he is finding it frustating and he is not interested and he does not see the point.

I do not intend to suggest that there is not an issue.However one aspect could be the way literacy is being taught and the expectations of the teacher.

I don't know if your son will turn out to have AS or anything else.However Ben has AS.He had difficulties with writing that I described on the other thread.However he now uses an Alphasmart and his creative writing is actually very advanced for his age.However he still finds it very difficult to do literacy work that does not fit with his view of the world.So for example he was recently asked to write a formal complaint letter about graffiti in the play ground.He would not write the letter even though he was able to because there is no graffiti in the playground. :)

It is difficult at this stage because there are numerous possible factors in your situation.I do think it will not help if the teacher places your son under too much pressure.When Ben was in year 2 he ended up refusing to do any writing.It turned out that he is actually gifted in this area and could well be a writer one day.It would have been a great loss if he had been put off writing.Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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Thank you one and all for your comments.

 

I believe in my heart that the problem is that he just doesn't see the point of writing things down but he has not been able to tell me in his own words what the problem is yet and I am often surprised once he finally opens up! Tomorrow we are going to have some alone time to talk.

 

I feel very strongly that a 6yr can not just opt out of the things that he doesn't like BUT on the other hand there are so many problems that have been easier to overcome once I have relooked at the situation as though we were further down the line with a firm diagnosis.

 

Both his teacher and I have reasoned with him as to why he should concentrate on his literacy work and why it is unfair to talk to and distract the other children and he really takes it on board and agrees at that moment but evidently when it is next literacy time he isn't changing.

 

Hi.I thought it worth adding.Although Ben still finds some lessons difficult [he is in year 6 age 10] ourselves and school have always been clear that it is not alright to be distracting others.I think it would be worth supporting the teacher in taking a firm line if he is distacting others.It may be that the difficulty for the teacher is not just that your son is finding the work difficult but that he is also distracting others.

I hope I do not sound unsympathetic.I do understand.Ben has been known to disrupt several classess in the course of an afternoon so I know it is not easy .Karen.

 

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What are you thinking off when you talk about a diagnosis, are you thinking ASD or ADD??

If he has written pages of fiction (and it really is fictional stuff and not something he has heard or seen before), then he maybe demonstrating imagination to such an extent (you'd know better than me), that an ASD might not be the right diagnosis. I know that many children with ASDs can show some imagination. So it isn't a yes or no thing, but usually on a sliding scale, or the ability to use imagination is in one area and not applied in other areas. He also sounds like he could be impulsive. There is alot of cross over between the two and it is not uncommon to have traits of both.

 

Sally.I think that children with AS can have a different imagination.Ben writes for the the CBBC message boards and gets requests for his work.He has also had poetry published in a local mainstream school commpetition.His creative writing is outstanding.I know Ben is an extreme example in some respects however there are plenty of other examples of writers with AS who demonstrate imagination.

Ben writes enough fiction for it to be considered a book.I admit that he has a different style but he certainly demonstates a very complex imagination.

I asked Ben for an opinion of whether people with AS have imagination.He said to take a look on wrong planet.Evidently they have a section relating to the arts,music and creative writing which is well used. :)

There are many criteria for AS diagnosis and I have no idea whether Salbaggios son might meet the criteria.However I would not rule it out on the basis of ability to write fiction.Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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Hi

 

The other post Karen mentioned has some good ideas.

 

With my eldest son it is the process of getting things out of his head onto paper that has been the difficult bit. He has always had the ideas and knowledge, but couldn't organise those thoughts. He couldn't pick out the most important points, and if you think all the information is important it can seem an insurmountable task to write it all down. He also didn't really know how to start, continue or finish, IYSWIM! This has got better as he has got older. I found that talking generally about a subject and pointing out the most relevant points helped him. To me, it's a bit like trying to follow a recipe without a picture of the intended end result. If he doesn't know what he is trying to achieve it can be very difficult. Also my son has developed his own unique way of holding a pencil/pen and now the actual neatness of his writing has improved.

 

He also used to be easily distracted, not necessarily by other people but by his own mind! I would say he had a hyperactive mind, he would be constantly taking in everything around him, every little detail. He works better when the class is laid out in rows (old fashioned style!), or with his table facing away from the rest of the class.

 

My eldest son was at school almost a year before we found out he was very short sighted. Because of this he used to have to get up close to the board, or appeared to run off on school trips, but he was just trying to see things. My youngest son found it difficult to concentrate in class because of hearing problems, and was better when he sat nearer the teacher and where he could see her face.

Edited by Mandapanda

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Mandapanda, that sounds very similar to my son.

 

He too has good ideas for creative writing/literacy but struggles to juggle all the components, especially when handwriting is added to the mix. He finds it quite stressful to put his thoughts in order, and to remember punctuation, capitals, paragraphs AND keep his handwriting legible, and the strain of this affects his ability to think clearly with the outcome that the effort is so great that he ends up not producing much at all.

 

However, since he's been home educated he's been using story writing software and the change in his ability has been astonishing. By being given the freedom to write in a way he feels comfortable, in whichever order he likes (he prefers to write the exciting end part first and work backwards) the stress is removed and he does some good work. It also helps that he can type quite well, as his output matches the speed of his thinking, which has always been a problem in the past.

 

J is also very visual and likes to use objects and pictures to inspire him. Right now he's on the computer working on a story for his creative writing group, and he's just gone up to his room looking for a rifle to describe as he needs a weapon in his story. He has been searching Google Images for landscapes too - he wouldn't get that kind of flexibility in school but he seems to need it to produce creatively.

 

As far as imagination is concerned, I think there's little doubt that autistic children do have imagination and some are very vivid, but the concern is with flexibility of thought rather than imagination itself. This would mean a child could write for hours on a subject of his own choosing but would struggle to focus sufficiently on something that didn't interest him, which would obviously affect output. However, I think that by encouraging him to write about his own interests you'd help him learn the basic principles of creative writing and that's a good start. With that under his belt he can then learn how to write about subjects that are given to him rather than his own choice.

 

Although I agree that there are no actual impediments to the OP's son's ability towards literacy, I do feel it's possible that the combination of skills required in his literacy work might be too stressful for him and causing him a problem that isn't there at the start of the task, iykwim. I know my own son can wind himself up into such a tizz in his anxiety to avoid something he finds challenging, and that in turn affects his ability to self-control and makes it harder to do it at all. He certainly makes a rod for his own back and although we're working on this it's very much a work in progress, there's no quick fix. If he's finding it this difficult at ten I'd imagine it's even harder for the OP's son to have that level of self-awareness and control at six.

 

Karen

x

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Mandapanda, that sounds very similar to my son.

 

 

 

J is also very visual and likes to use objects and pictures to inspire him. Right now he's on the computer working on a story for his creative writing group, and he's just gone up to his room looking for a rifle to describe as he needs a weapon in his story.

x

 

 

:o:o:o:o:lol::lol: Do you live near me......?

Edited by Karen A

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This would mean a child could write for hours on a subject of his own choosing but would struggle to focus sufficiently on something that didn't interest him, which would obviously affect output.

 

This can be an important point, as it can appear to the teacher that a child is 'choosing' what they do and or don't do, ie. just 'not bothering'. This is very difficult to get some people to understand and appreciate !!

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If he has written pages of fiction (and it really is fictional stuff and not something he has heard or seen before), then he maybe demonstrating imagination to such an extent (you'd know better than me), that an ASD might not be the right diagnosis.

'Imagination' within the triad of impairments refers to social imagination (often now termed 'flexibility of thought') not imagination in a creative writing sense. It refers to being able to comprehend different outcomes for example or to understand that people might not know exactly the same as you know (this for instance is a problem I have in that I fail to give people all the details they need because I assume they know and then get annoyed when they don't understand :rolleyes:).

 

On writing, one thing that I don't think has been suggested is to look (especially if he is doing well academically and there may be issues with perfectionism there if he is repeatedly being told 'what a clever boy' (or similar) he is) at his reaction to making mistakes. If he can write but is reluctant to (and stopping others from doing so to take attention away from him) is there a possibility that he is frightened (that might be an OTT term) to write things down in case he makes mistakes? If this is the case, providing him with a white-board alongside his normal paper so he can 'try out' things first without fear of making a mistake might help. :)

 

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This can be an important point, as it can appear to the teacher that a child is 'choosing' what they do and or don't do, ie. just 'not bothering'. This is very difficult to get some people to understand and appreciate !!

 

Hi.Yes even with a Statement and an AS dx there have been times when it has been documented that Ben ''Is refusing to work''.

 

I know some children will refuse to work.However it is not really logical that a child would type pages and pages at the weekend for enjoyment and yet refuse to do a piece of work that would be done in about three minutes if it fitted with his understanding of the world.

I remember one very confusing discussion with a teacher long before Ben was ever suspected of having AS.He was asked to write about what he thought people could not live without.He could not do the work because he insisted that the only thing people could not live without was their life.Whilst other children wrote long lists including arms,legs etc etc Ben was convinced that people could live without those things.He never did complete that work.I understood his logic. :)

 

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'Imagination' within the triad of impairments refers to social imagination (often now termed 'flexibility of thought') not imagination in a creative writing sense. It refers to being able to comprehend different outcomes for example or to understand that people might not know exactly the same as you know (this for instance is a problem I have in that I fail to give people all the details they need because I assume they know and then get annoyed when they don't understand :rolleyes:).

 

On writing, one thing that I don't think has been suggested is to look (especially if he is doing well academically and there may be issues with perfectionism there if he is repeatedly being told 'what a clever boy' (or similar) he is) at his reaction to making mistakes. If he can write but is reluctant to (and stopping others from doing so to take attention away from him) is there a possibility that he is frightened (that might be an OTT term) to write things down in case he makes mistakes? If this is the case, providing him with a white-board alongside his normal paper so he can 'try out' things first without fear of making a mistake might help. :)

 

Good point.Ben used to scrap pages and pages of work because it was not good enough.I think that is also the advantage of ICT it is easier to correct one bit rather than starting again each time.Karen.

 

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Totally agree with this about fear of making mistakes. With factual subjects like eg Science or Maths, there's an obvious right and wrong answer which our children can accept because the distinction is clear. Creativity is very emotional and vague, there's no certainty about how to get it right, and it can be too daunting to even try. The same can be said about subjects like History and RE, where questions often ask for opinions about why certain events happened or why people feel or believe a certain thing. Very challenging where there's a limited theory of mind.

 

Karen

x

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Wow!!! What a variety of information and opinion, thanks to everyone that has posted.

 

To be truthful it is very late and I can't quite take in all of the replies, my head is spinning!!!! I think that I will come back to this thread in the morning and re-read all of the posts and I thank you all again.

 

I am trying SO hard to be balanced; neither diagnosing him in my own mind and "blaming" his behaviours on Aspergers (or anything else on the autistic spectrum) nor, on the other hand, ignoring resources that could be benefitting him right now.

 

Each behaviour that has been highlighted as having a potential connection to autism has been very much easier for both him and us to deal with when I have followed the advice of people that have posted on here or from his SENCO or other professional person that I have had contact with thus far.

 

I am sorry if I have given the impression that I am looking to excuse his unwillingness to cooperate with his teacher in his literacy work but something just doesn't sit right with me and I just wondered if there could be a connection. I never would have previously thought that there could be a connection between his anxiety at lunch time and autism but I mentioned it on here and was amazed to discover just how common that problem is.

 

Anyway I will come back to it tomorrow but in the meantime wanted to thank everyone for their input

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This can be an important point, as it can appear to the teacher that a child is 'choosing' what they do and or don't do, ie. just 'not bothering'. This is very difficult to get some people to understand and appreciate !!

 

I totally agree, and that is how 'imagination' has always been explained if I have been to a seminar given by an autistic adult. Which is kind of what I was trying to say, but you've both done it so much better.

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One thing I find worrying about this thread (and many others) is the amount of reasons suggested why salbaggio's son might not be able to attend in literacy or to achieve what he has shown himself/appears to be capable of achieving.

It does seem something that's 'general' to the way autism is viewed in isolation to just about every other disability I can think of. The onus, in other disabilities, is always on how to overcome the problems and help the child to achieve his or her maximum potential. With autism, the onus often seems to be on finding a way to exempt the child, which, by definition, limits their potential.

Salbaggio herself has said that there appears to be no impediment to her son making more headway in literacy, so why put assumptions in the way of expectation? If he has a problem with 'perfection' get him working and see if that is a problem and then put strategies in place to help with the problem. If he has problems with imagination, get him working and then if imagination does turn out to be the problem work on that. At the moment people seem to be concentrating on what the problems might be rather than what the problem is, which is that he could - in every sense that matters, and with no clear indication of any impediment- be achieving more than he is. Until he is actually working, there's not going to be any indication of what (if any) the problems are. Get him to do some work, and the the guessing is taken out of the equation - you can see what he's struggling with, and put strategies in place for the real reasons rather than trying lots of different ones based on what they might be...

 

Trying to put that into context - occassionally people say 'you wouldn't expect someone in a wheelchair to get up and walk' to reflect on autistic people's areas of difficulty. That's perfectly valid, but what's also true is that every effort is put into helping a person who can't walk to learn other mobility options - like that wheelchair. With autism, that is turned completely on it's head, and somebody who is perfectly capable of doing something is actively enabled in not doing it, and reasons are then found to justify that disablement.

 

Hope that makes sense, it is late and i am very tired so i might not be firing on all cylinders; but looking through this thread I see lots of people coming up with possible reasons why he shouldn't be making more effort in literacy, and few, despite salbaggios own feelings that he 'just doesn't see the point' why there should be an expectation that he should, which is simple: he's in school, in literacy class, and that's what he's there for whether he sees the point or not. Certainly one point that does need to be absolutly clear is that while finding out if there is a problem, the potential 'if' should not be allowed to impact on the other children in the class. Him not working is one thing, but there should be an absolute blanket policy on his stopping other children from working.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

Edited by baddad

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He writes letters correctly but very lazily and hurriedly with no spaces in between unless I sit next to him and remind him after each and every word.

 

I think from this description of his writing it would be worth investigating whether there is a physical problem behind things, whether it is a degree of dyspraxia, or problems with muscle tone, etc. Has your son ever had an assessment by a physiotherapist or an OT? A degree of dyspraxia would also link in with difficulties sequencing thoughts and transfering them onto paper.

 

With regards to motivation, and speaking from my own experience as someone with AS, it can be extremely dificult to start things, for a variety of reasons (perfectionism, being over whelmed by the task ahead, etc). Accordingly I work much better when I have to do things at work rather than at home.

 

I would start by looking at any possible physical difficulties, as these will be the easiest to identify and to help (exercises, pencil grips, sloping writing surface, etc, as BD suggested). Problems with sequencing, and indeed motivation, can then be tackled by breaking things into smaller steps. You could also investigate computer programmes that teach children to touch type. My son has severe dyspraxia, and did one of these courses at school when he was about 8, and it has stood him in good stead ever since.

 

Difficulties with attention and concentration would also be helped by a work station so that he is more able to focus away from the distractions or sensory issues of the wider classroom. At my son's special school each student had their own work station, which also enabled visual timetables to be clearly displayed, etc.

 

I do agree with BD that all of this support and help has to be underpinned by a solid, non-negotiable expectation that your son will do something in literacy, however short at the beginning. And again, that disturbing other children has zero-tolerance.

 

I know for myself that it has always been solid expectations as a child, and later my own stubborness, that has helped me push my own limitations to achieve things.

 

Hope some of this might help.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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One thing I find worrying about this thread (and many others) is the amount of reasons suggested why salbaggio's son might not be able to attend in literacy or to achieve what he has shown himself/appears to be capable of achieving.

It does seem something that's 'general' to the way autism is viewed in isolation to just about every other disability I can think of. The onus, in other disabilities, is always on how to overcome the problems and help the child to achieve his or her maximum potential. With autism, the onus often seems to be on finding a way to exempt the child, which, by definition, limits their potential.

Salbaggio herself has said that there appears to be no impediment to her son making more headway in literacy, so why put assumptions in the way of expectation? If he has a problem with 'perfection' get him working and see if that is a problem and then put strategies in place to help with the problem. If he has problems with imagination, get him working and then if imagination does turn out to be the problem work on that. At the moment people seem to be concentrating on what the problems might be rather than what the problem is, which is that he could - in every sense that matters, and with no clear indication of any impediment- be achieving more than he is. Until he is actually working, there's not going to be any indication of what (if any) the problems are. Get him to do some work, and the the guessing is taken out of the equation - you can see what he's struggling with, and put strategies in place for the real reasons rather than trying lots of different ones based on what they might be...

 

Trying to put that into context - occassionally people say 'you wouldn't expect someone in a wheelchair to get up and walk' to reflect on autistic people's areas of difficulty. That's perfectly valid, but what's also true is that every effort is put into helping a person who can't walk to learn other mobility options - like that wheelchair. With autism, that is turned completely on it's head, and somebody who is perfectly capable of doing something is actively enabled in not doing it, and reasons are then found to justify that disablement.

 

Hope that makes sense, it is late and i am very tired so i might not be firing on all cylinders; but looking through this thread I see lots of people coming up with possible reasons why he shouldn't be making more effort in literacy, and few, despite salbaggios own feelings that he 'just doesn't see the point' why there should be an expectation that he should, which is simple: he's in school, in literacy class, and that's what he's there for whether he sees the point or not. Certainly one point that does need to be absolutly clear is that while finding out if there is a problem, the potential 'if' should not be allowed to impact on the other children in the class. Him not working is one thing, but there should be an absolute blanket policy on his stopping other children from working.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Hi.I certainly do not believe that having AS excempts an individual from being able to achieve things.Ben uses an alphasmart and most of the advice I have given is based on my experience with Ben.

Three years ago he was behind in literacy and almost phobic about writing.He was extremely challenging in school partly because he is extremely intelligent but could not write more than a few words without getting cramp.No allowances were made for Ben because he was seen as intelligent but badly behaved.He was on the verge of exclusion,was hiding under tables and was self -harming.

Ben is certainly not like that now.He has just recieved a monthly award given for a short story on the CBBC message board.Ben is an extremely talented young man.He may well be a writer one day.Last year he gave a presentation of a piece of work he had written about CAMHS services to all CAMHS staff in the borough.I think Ben writes better than Luke Jackson.Ben can do all of these things because he had appropriate support in literacy for the SEN that he has as per the Code Of Practice.

 

Baddad.I feel a bit put out to be honest.If you do not read the Education Forum you may not be aware that there are actually a fairly small number of people who answer the majority of posts...myself being one of them.

I certainly have very high expectations for Ben.I cannot win.Only a few weeks ago another posted slated me because Ben was so able they did not consider he could have AS at all.

I will go and find your smiley that you made for me because I think I need it.

Oh and yes I am extremely proud of Ben.Thanks to appropriate support for his documented and recognised disability [AS and dyspraxia] and high expectations on our part he is doing extremely well. :whistle::whistle::whistle:

 

I do not post often about how well Ben is doing.I feel embarassed and do not like to make a big deal of it.

Actually before I take all the credit it is also in no small measure down to the work of another Forum member who recognised that Ben might have AS because she hads a son with AS.She also has very hight expectations and hopes for Ben and is working very hard to ensure support is in place for his documented disabilities. :thumbs::notworthy::notworthy:

 

In response to your post.I am starting to feel as though you feel as if individuals with AS should be treated in exactly the same way as everyone else from some of your recent posts BD . :whistle:

Edited to add.I have come back and reread the thread.I could find an awful lot of advice regarding why there might be dificulties and what the difficulties might be.I cannot find any posts that say he should not have to make an effort.I also found several that suppoted your view that disruptive behaviour should not be excused.

It is recognised widely that disruptive behaviour can result from unidentified SEN incidently.That is not to provide an excuse for disruptive behaviour but in itself if a child is disruptive during specific tasks a professional would consider it worth investigating.Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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One thing I find worrying about this thread (and many others) is the amount of reasons suggested why salbaggio's son might not be able to attend in literacy or to achieve what he has shown himself/appears to be capable of achieving.

It does seem something that's 'general' to the way autism is viewed in isolation to just about every other disability I can think of. The onus, in other disabilities, is always on how to overcome the problems and help the child to achieve his or her maximum potential. With autism, the onus often seems to be on finding a way to exempt the child, which, by definition, limits their potential.

Salbaggio herself has said that there appears to be no impediment to her son making more headway in literacy, so why put assumptions in the way of expectation? If he has a problem with 'perfection' get him working and see if that is a problem and then put strategies in place to help with the problem. If he has problems with imagination, get him working and then if imagination does turn out to be the problem work on that. At the moment people seem to be concentrating on what the problems might be rather than what the problem is, which is that he could - in every sense that matters, and with no clear indication of any impediment- be achieving more than he is. Until he is actually working, there's not going to be any indication of what (if any) the problems are. Get him to do some work, and the the guessing is taken out of the equation - you can see what he's struggling with, and put strategies in place for the real reasons rather than trying lots of different ones based on what they might be...

 

Trying to put that into context - occassionally people say 'you wouldn't expect someone in a wheelchair to get up and walk' to reflect on autistic people's areas of difficulty. That's perfectly valid, but what's also true is that every effort is put into helping a person who can't walk to learn other mobility options - like that wheelchair. With autism, that is turned completely on it's head, and somebody who is perfectly capable of doing something is actively enabled in not doing it, and reasons are then found to justify that disablement.

 

Hope that makes sense, it is late and i am very tired so i might not be firing on all cylinders; but looking through this thread I see lots of people coming up with possible reasons why he shouldn't be making more effort in literacy, and few, despite salbaggios own feelings that he 'just doesn't see the point' why there should be an expectation that he should, which is simple: he's in school, in literacy class, and that's what he's there for whether he sees the point or not. Certainly one point that does need to be absolutly clear is that while finding out if there is a problem, the potential 'if' should not be allowed to impact on the other children in the class. Him not working is one thing, but there should be an absolute blanket policy on his stopping other children from working.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

If you read one of my posts on this thread you will see that I completely agree that he should not be allowed to disturb other children.Karen.

 

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With autism, that is turned completely on it's head, and somebody who is perfectly capable of doing something is actively enabled in not doing it, and reasons are then found to justify that disablement.

I can kind of see your argument; if I understand you correctly, you are saying having autism is not an excuse not to do something (too many double negative there I think... :unsure:). If that is what you are saying, I agree in part. I think that what a lot of posts have done here is identify where the specific issue might lie. The more important consideration is what you do once you have identified the issue. Identifying the problem should be the starting point, not the end point. So, rather than saying 'X can't do this because of Y', you change that to 'Currently X can't do/struggles with this because of Y, but if we try Z it may overcome Y and allow X to do the task'.

 

Of course, it's going to be more complex in practise because it is unlikely to be just one factor and responses may have been learnt, but I do believe identifying specific issues is required in order to address them rather than having a generic response.

 

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One thing I find worrying about this thread (and many others) is the amount of reasons suggested why salbaggio's son might not be able to attend in literacy or to achieve what he has shown himself/appears to be capable of achieving.

It does seem something that's 'general' to the way autism is viewed in isolation to just about every other disability I can think of. The onus, in other disabilities, is always on how to overcome the problems and help the child to achieve his or her maximum potential. With autism, the onus often seems to be on finding a way to exempt the child, which, by definition, limits their potential.

Salbaggio herself has said that there appears to be no impediment to her son making more headway in literacy, so why put assumptions in the way of expectation? If he has a problem with 'perfection' get him working and see if that is a problem and then put strategies in place to help with the problem. If he has problems with imagination, get him working and then if imagination does turn out to be the problem work on that. At the moment people seem to be concentrating on what the problems might be rather than what the problem is, which is that he could - in every sense that matters, and with no clear indication of any impediment- be achieving more than he is. Until he is actually working, there's not going to be any indication of what (if any) the problems are. Get him to do some work, and the the guessing is taken out of the equation - you can see what he's struggling with, and put strategies in place for the real reasons rather than trying lots of different ones based on what they might be...

 

Trying to put that into context - occassionally people say 'you wouldn't expect someone in a wheelchair to get up and walk' to reflect on autistic people's areas of difficulty. That's perfectly valid, but what's also true is that every effort is put into helping a person who can't walk to learn other mobility options - like that wheelchair. With autism, that is turned completely on it's head, and somebody who is perfectly capable of doing something is actively enabled in not doing it, and reasons are then found to justify that disablement.

 

Hope that makes sense, it is late and i am very tired so i might not be firing on all cylinders; but looking through this thread I see lots of people coming up with possible reasons why he shouldn't be making more effort in literacy, and few, despite salbaggios own feelings that he 'just doesn't see the point' why there should be an expectation that he should, which is simple: he's in school, in literacy class, and that's what he's there for whether he sees the point or not. Certainly one point that does need to be absolutly clear is that while finding out if there is a problem, the potential 'if' should not be allowed to impact on the other children in the class. Him not working is one thing, but there should be an absolute blanket policy on his stopping other children from working.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Hi.BD thought I would add whilst I am on my high horse. :rolleyes:

The reason everyone is being careful to talk about what the issues might be is because we don't want to pre-empt the diagnostic assessments that are currently taking place.

I pressume that the fact that assessments are taking place suggests that there might be some impediments.

I am beginning to think it is impossible to offer the right advice here.Whatever is said someone will take issue with it.

It is worth remembering that the aim of the Education Forum is to enable people to obtain appropriate support for their children.You may not know if you don't read this section of the Forum very often.The approach of providing no differentiation or assessment of SEN whilst having high expectations and hoping that the child has no difficulties that require support is usually taken by Local Authorities. :oops::devil:

 

 

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I can kind of see your argument; if I understand you correctly, you are saying having autism is not an excuse not to do something (too many double negative there I think... :unsure:). If that is what you are saying, I agree in part. I think that what a lot of posts have done here is identify where the specific issue might lie. The more important consideration is what you do once you have identified the issue. Identifying the problem should be the starting point, not the end point. So, rather than saying 'X can't do this because of Y', you change that to 'Currently X can't do/struggles with this because of Y, but if we try Z it may overcome Y and allow X to do the task'.

 

Of course, it's going to be more complex in practise because it is unlikely to be just one factor and responses may have been learnt, but I do believe identifying specific issues is required in order to address them rather than having a generic response.

 

Hi Mumble.As I have just said is that is all that could be done is to speculate regarding what the issues might be.To do anything else would be to pre-empt the diagnostic assessments that I think are currently taking place. :unsure: Karen.

 

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There are so many issues going around in my head right now that this post may be rather garbled so I apologise in advance!

 

 

 

We are still ploughing through the diagnosis process and he is going to be observed in a fortnight right inside the classroom and I am hoping that something might come out of that.

 

I found the quote I was looking for.

The fact that the diagnostic process is going on and that observations are being done in the classroom highlights the fact that there are suffiencient concerns to warrent a diagnostic assessment.

Part of what I was attempting to do was to enable Salbaggio to condsider what the issues that might be worth a parent considering could be.

Anyone who is currently involved regularly on the Education Forum would be aware that observations in the class room are not done unless there have been concerns for some considerable time.Finding an EP or anyone else to do classroom obsevations is a major challenge.

Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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One thing I find worrying about this thread (and many others) is the amount of reasons suggested why salbaggio's son might not be able to attend in literacy or to achieve what he has shown himself/appears to be capable of achieving.

It does seem something that's 'general' to the way autism is viewed in isolation to just about every other disability I can think of. The onus, in other disabilities, is always on how to overcome the problems and help the child to achieve his or her maximum potential. With autism, the onus often seems to be on finding a way to exempt the child, which, by definition, limits their potential.

Salbaggio herself has said that there appears to be no impediment to her son making more headway in literacy, so why put assumptions in the way of expectation? If he has a problem with 'perfection' get him working and see if that is a problem and then put strategies in place to help with the problem. If he has problems with imagination, get him working and then if imagination does turn out to be the problem work on that. At the moment people seem to be concentrating on what the problems might be rather than what the problem is, which is that he could - in every sense that matters, and with no clear indication of any impediment- be achieving more than he is. Until he is actually working, there's not going to be any indication of what (if any) the problems are. Get him to do some work, and the the guessing is taken out of the equation - you can see what he's struggling with, and put strategies in place for the real reasons rather than trying lots of different ones based on what they might be...

 

 

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Hi.The difficulty in education currently is that all of the strategies you suggest which are perfectly valid are dependent on people to put them in place.Which is dependent on obtaining support from the school who have very limited funds at school action and school action plus.Support will not be put in place unless there is a strong case that there is a need.Who is going to get him working ? Who is going to put the strategies in place ?

The system does not work like that.If a parent does not concentrate on what the problems are then no support is proveded at all.

This is exacatly the approach CAMHS took when they told me the documentation for DLA for Ben that I submitted was too negative.

 

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http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.ph...c=21139&hl=

 

BD I just found this thread from the other day.I probably sound a bit off.However when this is fairly typical of posts on education for children who have less obvious SEN it demonstrates well my outspoken views

Incidently.The first link I posted included advice from two extremely experienced SENCOS who are far more able than myself to advise parents regarding SEN.Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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Of course, it's going to be more complex in practise because it is unlikely to be just one factor and responses may have been learnt, but I do believe identifying specific issues is required in order to address them rather than having a generic response.

 

I thought that was what diffferentiation and assessment of SEN was about ?

Or perhaps I am talking out of my hat and we should just have a generic response and blanket policies as advocated by so many LAs. :oops:

Perhaps the right response is to make sure pupils produce work if the school considers them to be like everyone else and exclude them when they don't behave.

I know of one HT who would completely endorse this approach.

What is more this can be very effective.If a child is excluded then nobody needs to find out what the problem is.Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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As your son does not have a diagnosis yet and is going to be observed in the classroom soon, maybe it would be helpful to speak to whoever it is that is going into school to talk to them about this specific difficulty. Do you know who is going to observe him?

Parents are not professionals, although on many occasions their suspicions are confirmed. If a child is having difficulties in any area and discipline alone is not working and the child is still showing avoidance behaviours and/or non-compliance then the skills needed to complete the task need to be looked at to see if the child has those skills because if they don't they may fail the task and that could be at any part of the process.

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Hope that makes sense, it is late and i am very tired so i might not be firing on all cylinders; but looking through this thread I see lots of people coming up with possible reasons why he shouldn't be making more effort in literacy, and few, despite salbaggios own feelings that he 'just doesn't see the point' why there should be an expectation that he should, which is simple: he's in school, in literacy class, and that's what he's there for whether he sees the point or not. Certainly one point that does need to be absolutly clear is that while finding out if there is a problem, the potential 'if' should not be allowed to impact on the other children in the class. Him not working is one thing, but there should be an absolute blanket policy on his stopping other children from working.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Yes several hours later and I am still ranting which is unusual for me.

Those of us who use the Education section regularly will be aware that blanket policies with regard to SEN are illegal. :whistle:

 

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As your son does not have a diagnosis yet and is going to be observed in the classroom soon, maybe it would be helpful to speak to whoever it is that is going into school to talk to them about this specific difficulty. Do you know who is going to observe him?

Parents are not professionals, although on many occasions their suspicions are confirmed. If a child is having difficulties in any area and discipline alone is not working and the child is still showing avoidance behaviours and/or non-compliance then the skills needed to complete the task need to be looked at to see if the child has those skills because if they don't they may fail the task and that could be at any part of the process.

 

That would amount to advising the EP [if it is an EP] on how to assess which may not go down well.Karen.

 

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I thought that was what differentiation and assessment of SEN was about ?

Or perhaps I am talking out of my hat and we should just have a generic response and blanket policies as advocated by so many LAs. :oops:

Perhaps the right response is to make sure pupils produce work if the school considers them to be like everyone else and exclude them when they don't behave.

I know of one HT who would completely endorse this approach.

What is more this can be very effective.If a child is excluded then nobody needs to find out what the problem is.Karen.

:tearful: Please re-read what I have written. I think we are saying the same thing. I certainly am not advocating a one size fits all approach. :(

 

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