Piers teacher needs to speak with us

[joybed]

Hi as some of you may remember my little man is undergoing assessment at the moment but no firm diagnosis of anything. He is nearing the end of reception and has just turned 5 on Sunday. School intially said he was just very immature but no real problems. However after easter they began to see a different side to him, have had a few frustrated/ aggressive outbursts and he is sinking further behind the class as a whole. I have seen this from the start of reception, he is a twin and although she is a girl and everyone said girls are always more keen to learn and mature than boys, they were leagues apart. This gap has widened as the school year has progressed. Lydia is very keen to sit down and do her school work knows all her key words and will happily sit and draw and write for hours. Piers on the other hand still can,t hold a pencil properly, can count 1 to 15 but can,t write numbers, can write his name with prompting if in the mood, only knows five key words and is reluctant to practice the list goes on. He has no concentration or prganisational skills at all. i am not comparing them as they have always been treated as individuals but the difference is very noticable now.

Today his teacher approached me to say her and the head teacher had gone through the childrens work and to cut a long story short Piers isn,t up to the required standard and they want him to repeat reception. I have an appointment to discuss this fully. Although I knew this was coming I am still gutted more for the fact the twins are going to be spilt up . I think this will do them good in a way as Piers is reliant on Lydia and she helps him too much, also i think it will increase Lydia,s confidence too. Lydia I am sure will be fine as she has a good circle of friends in her year group but Piers will be starting again. Anyone else been there does it bother them at all. He will have a few kids he went to nursery in his class so won,t be totally alone but I am worried it will damage his already shattered self esteem.

I am going to ring his consultant this morning as we are due for a MDT meeting to try to obtain a diagnosis but they are confused about what is going on, he has some ASD, ADHD and PDA traits. I feel it is more PDA but his consultant doesn,t believe there is such a condition. We can,t afford to pay private. We are awaitng a genetics referral. Any advice.

Edited June 10, 2009 by joybed

[keepingmesane]

((((((((((hugs)))))))))))

 

that must be a really tough thing to hear xxx

i too have 5 yr old twins, mine are both on the spectrum and have had to be split into different schools due to their different needs and abilities, it was really hard and im still sad that they have had to be seperated... but they are doing really well and not overshadowed by each other. i know its not the same thing but i understand the hurt of having to break them up

 

 

xxxxxx

[Sally44]

If he is on the autistic spectrum I presume he has been assessed and observed by a whole range of professionals such as SALT, Educational and Clinical Psychologist, OT, Paediatrician etc.

I also considered PDA with my son when he was being assessed at 4.5 years old. He is now 8.

I don't think he has PDA, but alot of his refusal and avoidance behaviours were down to his severe difficulties with understanding speech and language (both receptive and expressive), auditory processing and auditory delay difficulties, executive function difficulties and Sensory Integration Disorder.

Now he is in a mixed mainstream Enhanced Resource school and is finally (at age 8) beginning to read independently rather than memorise his reading books.

He too would not/could not write/hold a pencil. He never coloured or drew or painted and would throw a tantrum is asked to do so. He could put numbers in order from 2+ years old but could not remember what they were called and could not write them if told a number verbally. He was only able to write his name for 3 years and no other word or letter at all. It was as if he could not retrieve the information in his brain about what it looked like.

He is also believed to have Dyslexia and Dyscalculia.

He was assessed with percentiles of 92 in some areas of ability (ie. out of 100 children he would be better than 92 of them) and a percentile of 2 for understanding verbal instructions (out of 100 children 98 children would do better than him), and a percentile of less than 1 for planning and organisation and motor planning. His cognitive ability is above average intelligence. So he also got very frustrated that he couldn't do the work, and he had very poor self esteem.

But to be honest, how many of us would happily go into our place of work if everyone spoke a language we did not understand and we did not understand what we should be doing and could not do what everyone else was doing and had no understanding as to why we couldn't do it when the others could? We would soon be off work sick with stress and anxiety. So if you look at it from that point of view, then the behaviours are actually very understandable.

It is very common for children to be good in some areas and very poor in others. This is called a spiky profile.

Have you also looked into sensory integration difficulties? Do you think that is something relevant?

Moving him to another school separated him from his sibling.

It isn't easy, but when a child is in the right school and is taught in an autistic friendly way by experienced staff, they can and do make progress.

Regarding holding him back a year. If his difficulties are down to autism, and his current school do not have experience of teaching autistic children are you confident that just holding him back another year is going to make any difference?

My son was mainstream for 3 years and made little progress and towards the end of year 2 was actually losing skills.

In year 3, in a different school, he is now on the national curriculum.

Has the SALT done a thorough assessment of his speech and social interaction skills? For example, a child that cannot remember verbal instructions may appear as a child being disruptive or unco-operative. But if they cannot remember, or don't understand what is expected of them then they need the appropriate supports in place.

[baddad]

Very disappointing, but hopefully that extra year will be a blessing in the long run

Trying to look on the positive side, maybe the twins being in separate classes will pay dividends for both of them - having that bit of space may allow them to develop a relationship that is actually stronger than would be the case if school and home meant 24/7 contact.

 

Very best with the new arrangements next year

 

L&P

 

BD

[joybed]

HI Sally he has been seen by SALT, ed psych and a paediatrician none of the others. He was found to have good understanding of spoken language and his spoken speech is good in his SALT assessment but she said it was very hard to keep him on track and you had to gain his attention before you could ask him a question. She said that she could see this would cause him problems in a mainstream school setting when there are 27 other kids present. The paed we are seeing has said he just copies his older brothers behaviour and is naughty and attention seeking, she offered me a parenting course. I have no objections to doing this but I am the kind of parent who spends time with there children at the detriment of other things. Most of his tantrums occur when walking to school I can only think this is either because of something like sensory integration disorder or because he finds school so difficult he is dreading going. HE hates to be rushed and the past 2 days have been better as i have allowed 30 minutes to complete a 10 minute journey so I don,t have to rush him. Getting ready to do anything is a nightmare this morning trying to get him dressed I almost have to physically fight him and in the space of 5 minutes he had stabbed his older brother in the leg with a pencil and kicked Lydia in the face i spend all day trying to protect myself and others from him.

he does sometimes bring things to you to show you and is occasionally loving he wants to spend time with you but then will turn nasty very quickly. Marcus would happily spend time on his own all day only coming to you when he needs something. Hopefully now school are having difficulties we will get somewhere.

[Sally44]

Is ADHD a possibility? Or a bit of both??

My son is diagnosed as ASD and he too finds it hard to focus and pay attention to the relelvant thing in class. He is now taught in small groups and has alot of structure and visuals to keep him on track. He also has auditory processing disorder and auditory processing delays. Although you say your son has a good understanding of language and can communicate well, do you feel he can sit in a noisy classroom and pay attention to the teacher and process what she is saying in real time? He might be disengaging because he simply cannot process the language quickly enough.

My son is also impulsive and I think he may have some ADHD traits thrown in for good measure. Many children/adults are a mixture of traits and diagnosis.

Also google Executive Functions to see if any of those skills are poor or absent in your son.

[joybed]

Sally i think ADHD is a very real posibilty. He is extremely impulsive and has no awareness of danger at all. At home he is constantly leaping around, climbing allover everyone and everything and behaving in an aggressive manner. At school his teacher says he rarely faces her but sits with his back to her and fidgets constantly. she says she spends 30 minutes with each child as part of a small group to do a one to one writng writing task and despite her undevided attention he has never yet completed a task. For the past week walking home we have had a problem with him trying to destroy someones flowers in the garden, we have had numerous long discussions about how wrong this is but he continued to try to trample the flowers, after 2 nights of this I crossed the road earlier to avoid this problem but unfortunately he spotted an equally lovely bush and attempted to destroy that instead. He has no attention span at all even if he is really interested in a DVD he will be leaping around while watching this. I have obviously told the docs all this but they are focusing on ASD which i am well aware that although he has many autistic tendencies he doesn,t properly fit the bill as he is very imaginative and loving at times.

School can,t attend the assessment next week but his consultant still wants to go ahead with the meeting with a written report from his teacher I have asked her for this tonight and asked her to not try to make things sound better than it is. I would rather her be honest and be upset than not get a diagnosis. I hope this makes sense.

The latest act of destroying things needs cleaning up tomorrow, Lydia got some makeup for her birthday and Piers found it tonight and tried to apply it to himself, he now has bright pink hands, streaks on his face and Lydia,s bedding is covered in nailpolish any tips for removing this from bedding/ clothing. I only had the energy to conviscate the stuff tonight and return him to his room god only knows where else I am going to find the stuff. Will investigate properly tomorrow as i need sleep now he is finally asleep.

[Sally44]

Oh dear!!

In the last week my son has cut his own hair (badly!), and thrown screws out of his bedroom window (pretending they were bombs). They are all over the kitchen roof and in the neighbours garden. He complained that they will break his lawn mower. I talked to my son about this, and he later told me that he had gone outside into the garden and seen the neighbour and told him "you have got an angry face".

I just wanted to pick up on what you said about imagination and being loving. Many children and adults with ASD have imagination and can be loving. It is more about understanding another persons point of view of understanding their experiences that they struggle with. My son's imagination was poor, but it is improving and he can now play games that are totally made up and not just a repetition of something he has seen on TV.

If you are unsure you can post asking that specific question in the forum about imagination and being loving and showing empathy etc. I know my son can do it and he is diagnosed with ASD.

However, as you say, it is also common to have more than one diagnosis going on at a time. It tends to happen that a child gets one diagnosis and maybe a mention of the second one. They seem to think that one diagnosis is enough. But there are some differences in approaches and supports that would be needed depending on whether your son has an ASD or ADHD and how he is affected and what needs fall under which diagnosis.

You could also post in the forum for advice about that.

Personally I would probably ask for a multi disciplinary team assessment for both ASD and also for ADHD by professionals who have experience in diagnosing this disorder.

You could also speak with the National Autistic Society for advice. You could also leave a message on their parent to parent line and someone with a similar situation would phone you up. You could also get advice from IPSEA.

 

[joybed]

Got a copy of the report his teacher has written this morning. It is very helpful as far as getting a diagnosis goes but makes very upsetting reading. He is very behind his peers academically and socially and becomes very easily frustrated and either becomes angry or just cries. School have said he is aware he is different to the other kids and this is affecting his self esteem and confidence. They are giving as much one to one time as they can without a statement but even with this he needs constant prompting to stay on track easily loses focus and wanders of when he is supposed to be doing something. When on the carpet he fidgets looks in the opposite direction, fiddles with his feet socks fingers and hums to himself. They have said he has a relationship of sorts with his peers but due to his social difficulties cannot expand on this. This morning he said he didn,t want ot go to school as the other boys make fun of him, calling him baby Piers and saying he is stupid, he is very small for his age and also very immature in the way he speaks and conducts himself. I could cry both for him at having to go to a place he obviously doesn,t understand and also reading the report. I am dreading, but also can,t wait for wednesday to come hopefully we will get some answers but equally i am scared they will fob us off again and send us away with nothing and my little man will continue to suffer. Thankyou all again for your support at this difficult time.

[Michele17]

I teach Reception and I'm very surprised they are considering keeping him in the Foundation Stage for another year. The guidelines are very clear that when children enter Year 1, the teachers should take them from where they are on the Early Years Foundation Stage Profile - not just start them on the National Curriculum. To be honest, Piers sounds like half my class!! I have a class that is almost half summer birthdays and about 2/3rd boys - and half of them have poor concentration on the carpet and listening to instructions. I'm definately NOT trying to play down your son's needs, but I've often had children from other schools who have come with IEP's and then wondered why? Are you happy with his school? Do you trust their judgement? There have to be quite exceptional circumstances to keep a child down a year from their peers - I've only known it happen once in 22 years of teaching and I've been at the same school for 17 years. Do you think Piers would manage in Year 1 with more support?

[madme]

Oh well I just typed a long post only to lose it. Firstly <'> >< <'>

Secondly go with your gut instincts. Thirdly sometimes one label isnt enough. My son is dx severe adhd (hyperkinetic disorder_ aspergers, dyspraxia and dyscalculia. We have also been told that there are dyslexic tendancies, SID and possible APD. The four main labels were attached not for the sake of it but because they were deemed necessary as he "evolved" There is a great book by Lisa Blakemore Brown about the autistic tapestry. I would certainly consider reading as much as possible about each of these areas. A multi disciplinary team is necessary. It is possible to ask for referral to a tertiary centre in cases where it is not clear cut eg Good luck.

Edited June 15, 2009 by madme

[Kazzen161]

>>he doesn,t properly fit the bill as he is very imaginative and loving at times.>>

 

Both my Aspie sons have good imagination - but they find it hard to make up something from scratch (ie: something not based on something they have done, or read or seen). They have particular problems with role play - T would always be T being a postman, he could not take on someone else's character.

 

They are both very loving too (well they were until they became teens!)

 

For both of mine ADHD/ADD was mooted, before it was found AS covered all the behaviour. I have found as they become more stressed/anxious, they become more ADHDish.

 

Reception Year is often harder for our children than Yr 1, because there is a lot less structure to the day/week, so keeping him back may hinder him rather than help. He will have to start making friends all over again too (OK he may not have many, but at least he is familiar with them and they with him).

 

As Michele17 says the behaviour is not uncommon in reception children (in fact, there are a couple of children in Year 5 that she could have been describing!).

 

[joybed]

Thankyou all for your replies. My oldest went to this school and I was more than happy with them then. He got a statement very quickly and they really helped with the diagnosing process. Piers teacher is newly qualified but very keen and willing to listen, intially they were saying it was just because he was a June birthday and he needed longer to settle but now they realise what I have been saying all along is correct. A new headteacher started a few years ago and a lot of the mums of special needs kids are not happy with him, their are a lot of diagnosed kids without statements or appropriate help and he is slow to fill in forms required etc. I have to say he was very good with my oldest but then again his statement was already in place and he caused them no trouble (that came at comp). His teacher takes on board whatever i say and has quite happily accepted a copy of the ADHD diagnostic criteria this morning, she is going to look at it and tell me if she thinks he meets the criteria as I think he fits it perfectly. They have no hyperactivity at school but do have fidgeting getting up to walk around the class at innapropriate times, extremely poor concentration etc.

I don,t think he will cope with the work in year 1 and neither does his teacher this is what has spurred her on to write another report. If he had good support then maybe he could go at his own pace but looking at the schols track record in recent years I will have to fight to get this for him. I think it could be an advantage to repeat reception but will this mean he will be a year behind forever because i can,t imagine Lydia going to comprehensive and leaving him behind at their present school that would be horrible for everyone and I think could potentially lead to trouble between them both. He does have lots of autistic tendencies but when you meet the diagnostic criteria for AS it doesn,t sound like Piers at all when you read the DC for ADHD this jumps out at you even my Mum agrees that it decribes him to the letter. DH is adamant he is not AS or autistic and reading the ed psychs report I think this is what she is going to suggest tomorrow, I was concerned that DH would challenge this and we would be back at square one but having spoke to him this morning he has said he just wants help and will accept any diagnosis to get Piers support at school because he says he can feel our son slipping away from us. i have to say i am worried about DH he does not cope well and it is taking this all very badly, he is leaving me to do all the fighting and meeting etc, he is coming tomorrow but will find it hard. I have thought in the past that he might be on the spectrum and his Dad says he was just like Piers as a small boy.

Will be glad when tomorrow is over not slept well last night and feel quite ill. Thankyou again.