Asperger's Traits OR Manipulation ?

[The Magenpie]

Things are reaching a head (albeit very slowly) with my stepson who is an adult. I have outlined his case in a previous post as he is a 24 year old with no motivation.

 

A number of organisations have tried to help in terms of job placements, training, voluntary work etc. but he now tells them he is quite happy "at home". This means living almost permanently in his room on the computer, slobbing around to the point he STINKS (and I do not exaggerate), showing his face twice a day only to eat and make the occasional conversation which is appearing to degenerate into that of a 12 year old.

 

He received a call from one of the organisations, asking why he had failed to 1) reply to their telephone calls; 2) reply to letters; 3) attend their meetings. His reply is that he doesn't need to work as he has what he wants at home; he has some money to pay his phone bill; he doesn't see the need to work. We found out about this as the organiser phoned his Dad to tell him what had been said; in fact she was so shocked at the negative and unhelpful attitude from the lad that she felt she needed to touch base with us to see if their was any underlying problem (to our knowledge nothing has changed other than he now sees his Dad and me as a soft touch).

 

We had to tackle this at this time as our wills will require the house to be sold in the event of the death of either partner (primarily as it is a 5 bed house and costs a small fortune to run), and we felt the lad needs to understand the implications now, rather than when it happens. The reason for this is that in the past when we have tried to get him to see that he does need to think about the future; his attitude is that he will cross that bridge when he gets to it. Add to the two issues just mentioned, the lad gets a small monthly pension from his late mother's teaching career BUT as most of you know on this forum, when government money is concerned, they will fight tooth and nail not to have to pay it. This week we have received a letter to say we have to complete a declaration that he remains "Disabled" for the next 12 months. I can read between the lines that the next step will be an assessment. So we show him the letter and point out the possible scenarios (does he want to be forever classified as "Disabled", does he see he can ever work at anything; what happens if he is called to an assessment and does his usual trick of refusing to attend etc etc.). His immediate reply is "how can I pay my phone bill?" As you can imagine this leads into questions about not planning in some shape or form for the future and this is what will happen if he won't do it. Then his final comment; " I don't have to do what I don't want to".

 

I have omitted the comments made to his Dad which the Dad found very hurtful (bearing in mind his Dad lost his Mom 15 years ago and fought hard to keep the young family together and on the straight and narrow for all these years) but this episode showed me a side of the lad which I now find manipulative. His Dad isn't as worldly wise as I am, nor is he as quick with the riposte but this was one step too far. His Dad admits to being worn out by him; his sisters think he is downright lazy and deliberately awkward and I now believe he knows exactly what strings he is pulling - albeit he does not achieve much with me in that direction - I have made it very clear that whilst under this roof he does as he is told. Since the row (which all he achieved was to dig an even bigger hole for himself - which he admitted!) he has kept a low profile.

 

I could live with the AS; I can accept the knowledge I have gained from this board that his emotional age is probably less 10 years; I can put up with the living on a PC all day BUT I will not tolerate the disrespect and failure to get off his fat backside and do something - washing up would be a start.

 

Sorry it's a bit of a rant but I am reaching the conclusion he needs to be set adrift from the mothership, albeit with some financial help and direction BUT not ###### wiping any longer. He is highly intelligent and has had work placements / college courses before. He can't be bothered.

 

I suppose I am really asking all you supportive AS adults on this board what made you make the effort - have we missed something ?

Edited June 10, 2009 by The Magenpie

[baddad]

Can't speak for autistic adults, but I can make an observation just from 'general' experience, I think...

Most of the adults with AS on the forum were diagnosed as adults - the opt-out option wasn't available to them, and the expectation for them wasn't compromised by assumptions that if they didn't go out to work it was because they couldn't 'cope' with work or were somehow incapable of working.

Obviously, this is not a comment on your son in any way, and for some autistic people there might be valid reasons for 'opting out', but one thing I find increasingly worrying about the 'next generation' of autistic kids is the can't do mentality that is applied or championed for them. Even more disconcerting, this generally applies to High Functioning kids who fifteen or so years ago wouldn't have got a diagnosis and who are, in very real terms, far better equipped and supported than the undiagnosed children from that era who did make it into employment...

Is it possible that your son is taking the pee? Absolutely! That doesn't mean I'm saying he is - I couldn't possibly know - but if you think he is, and assuming a parent's natural inclination to see the best in and to over-indulge/overprotect their kids the chances are that he probably is.

 

Hope that's helpful

 

L&P

 

BD

[call me jaded]

You could do to talk to someone like Digby Tantum who's not shy of saying how it is and can suggest a way forward.

[Tally]

From what you have said, it really does sound like he is completely taking advantage of you and making life a misery for you and your family. Apathy is not a symptom of Asperger's, but a lack of motivation can be caused by depression - which can look a lot like laziness. That is the only explanation I can think of other than that he is just very lazy and manipulative.

 

It is true that he does not have to do what he does not want to do, but he has to acknowledge that other people do not have to do what he wants them to do either. You say he only comes out of his room twice a day to eat . . . Who is paying for this food? Who is going to the shop to get it? Who is selecting items they know he likes? Who is preparing it? Who is cleaning up afterwards? If it's anyone other than him, I would suggest this person leaves him to it.

 

If you insist he pays some housekeeping, he will be compelled to apply for benefits in order to pay the housekeeping. He will either have to provide some kind of evidence that he actually is disabled, or sign on regularly with the Job Centre, who will hassle him to apply for jobs. If he doesn't want to pay housekeeping, then you might just have to take the power cable for his computer, after all, if he doesn't feel like paying for the electricity to run the computer, maybe you don't feel like it either.

 

It's difficult because the longer you enable him to do this, the more he will demand from you. He could end up completely incapable of looking after himself.

[NobbyNobbs]

it certainly sounds like unless you give him an incentive to work/contribute money(ie removing access to your food, elelctricity)he wont change. if hes had everything handed to him, he may well feel he doesn't need to bother, since someone else will always provide it. since its probably not appropriate to literally cut him loose, perhaps do as others have suggested at cut off his access to electricity, your food, and set up a 'housekeeping' amount payed each month or week.

 

to give you an idea, i pay my parents £30 a week for food out of my jobseekers allowance. if/when i get a job that will increase in proportion.

[Mandapanda]

Hi Magenpie

 

Firstly being a step-parent is a difficult job anyway

 

All I can do is tell you my personal experience with my 15-year-old.

 

Money: This means nothing to him. Yes he likes to buy things but doesn't seem bothered if he doesn't have the money to do so. He wanted Guitar Hero World Tour when it came out and we couldn't afford to buy it for him. He could easily have been saving his pocket money towards it, but instead his pocket money gets put randomly on a shelf in his room and he only uses some of it if his dad takes him to a wargames fair. He never asks for his pocket money if I forget. It doesn't even occur to him to save up and then go down town and get what he wants! There is something quite charming about this attitude, as compared to his younger brother who is mercenary to the point he would probably sell ME for a modest amount of money and who tries to charge me a £1 for each week I'm late with pocket money .

 

'Boxes': Everything in his mind is in 'boxes'. He has now left school and will be going to college in Sept. His dad has been on at him to look for a job. To him, you go to school, then you go to college, THEN you go to work (and not before). Obviously this lad is older, but maybe in his mind he hasn't followed the 'correct' pathway or something. They do see things very differently and cannot always verbalise their thought processes (they can think that we all think that way and should know).

 

Personal hygiene: After about 2-3 years of 'stinking' my son has now finally explained that he doesn't like showering because he doesn't like our shower. It is noisy, very difficult to turn on and off and leaks. He 'can't be bothered with it'. We are in the process of getting the shower replaced, it remains to be seen if it will make the hoped for difference, but we'll all benefit from a much nicer and easier to use shower (fortunately we have the money to do it at the moment).

 

Hurtful comments: This point is more relevant to my youngest son. He can be very resistant, oppositional and will resort to verbal/physical abuse if put under enough pressure. This is an emotional reaction to protect himself from something he really cannot face doing. Believe me, my son is not just not bothered and lazy, he is forcefully protecting himself from unbearable situations. Could it possibly be that he cannot face the social demands that working can involve? Let's face it, most of us dread interviews, and get extremely nervous starting a new job. There are a lot of unknowns involved which my 15-year-old particularly would find more than disconcerting. If I had a phobia to crane flys (flies?), I wouldn't want someone expecting me to hold one (a phobia to crane flys - that would be silly, wouldn't it? ) It can be extremely difficult to get my son in the right frame of mind, wanting to do something, feeling confident about it, and prepared to give it a go. I cannot tell him exactly what will happen or what it will be like, which leaves those 'unknowns' that bother him.

 

Laziness: OK, I know other people think you should lay the law down and not tolerate bad attitude and misbehaviour, and with a 'normal' child/person I wholeheartedly agree, and of course you do need to consider the possibility that he is just taking the mickey. However, if this approach is not working and causing more confrontation and misery for all involved, I personally think it may be worth stepping back and trying to look at the situation differently. It may not be that they 'want' to be lazy. It may be possible to find something they can enjoy doing and will want to do. Does he have a hobby or interest? If he likes computer games, has he tried wargaming? This is slightly more sociable and quite intellectually involving - learning about history, tactics, strategy etc. There are wargaming clubs around the country. Will he go away on holiday and go out for days then? Is it that he has to have something sufficiently motivating to get him out of the house and doing something. What could that possibly be - a difficult question potentially!! We asked my son to wash up a plate one day and he burst into tears! It was because it came out of the blue and was a shock. If he has warning, yes he will moan and groan, but he will do it.

 

Bereavement: I realise 15 years seems a long time, but he was presumably 9 when he lost his mum. My niece was 12 when she lost hers and the Kinship worker who supported us when she lived with us at 15 (having done drugs, been in a children's home and foster care, and being thrown out of her cousin's home), said that it is very common for their normal development to be disrupted. My niece comes across as dyslexic due to the disruption to her education. She is 18 this week and she still has not grieved. It is like it happened to someone else, but she is constantly looking for something that doesn't exist. She cannot hold a job down or settle in one place, and makes very bad choices of friends and boyfriends. She still tries to push us away because she doesn't want to care about people because she might lose them, like she lost her mum. She also thinks it is somehow her fault her mum died and that she hasn't had a successful life since, and therefore doesn't feel 'worthy' of a normal settled and successful life.

 

To find out if any of the above is playing a part in this situation, you may need to be very indirect in your approach. I find casual chatting (when he's in responsive mood) about related things works better than asking direct (possibly accusatory) questions. Getting on at him and arguments could just make him feel worse about himself, if that is an underlying issue.

 

I don't envy you at all and wish you well.

 

 

 

[bid]

Hi again, Magenpie

 

I think Mandpanda has made some good points about bereavement.

 

However, even while taking that into consideration, and his AS, and possible depression, etc, I still think he needs a more adult framework for his life. Whatever difficulties any young adult may have, they still need to live a realistic life to prepare them for the future.

 

You say he gets a small pension from his late mother. I think he should be giving you a set amount for housekeeping, even if it's only a token if the pension really is very small. At the moment, getting even a part-time job may be too difficult, but he can still have set tasks to contribute towards the running of the house. Uncomfortable as it may be for him, we all need to push our boundaries in order to achieve, even if it starts with small steps.

 

To give you an idea, my son will be 20 this month. He has worked since he was 18, at first part-time and now full-time. He has always given me housekeeping. He tidies his own room and does his own washing (both haphazardly) and cooks snacky meals.

 

Good luck...it's not easy I know.

 

Bid

 

 

[Sally44]

I agree that he needs a framework and some goals to be aiming towards. I too found my parents and my older sister (who has learning difficulties) were in a routine that they had kept up for all of their lives. My sister had been fortunate enough to finally manage to find a job that she could hold down. But that was seen as the 'final goal'. For example my sister did not raise the issue of leaving home or show any inclination or desire for that. However, I did push my parents to involve Social Services to look into this as I felt this was something achieveable and would be a benefit to my sister who will be eventually on her own. I thought we needed to know relatively soon whether she could be independent or whether we had to look at a group type of home.

As it turns out she is now living independently which has been good for her and my parents.

This man, although able to many ways, may be taking advantage of his home situation. But then so do alot of children/adults who are living at home. He may well not have thought through about his future. Or indeed he may need help to actually put this plan in place and start to make some moves towards independence. Sometimes, as intelligent as those with an ASD can obviously be, they can sometimes not make the connection between things. For example I went to see a speaker who is autistic, but who has finished university and has a couple of degrees. However on the date of this seminar the clocks had moved forward. As we sat waiting for her to arrive and it became clear that she was late, I was sure that she had not realised this. And she said exactly that when she came. She knew that the clocks were going forward, but had not make the connection regarding the importance of that and the seminar start time.

So, I would say to sit down with him and start to make some goals to be aiming for over the next year and to explicitly spell out why he needs to do things and what will be happening ie. you need to find some work so that your own money because you are too old to have your parents paying for you. If that starts to make him anxious about how he will do this, or whether he will ever find a suitable job, then you can talk about benefits. But you have to be clear that he is going to be weaned off his parents and when that will start and how it will happen.

[Guest featherways]

In very simple terms, we were brought up by very strict parents. Not cruel, but strict. There wasn't an option. There again, I think as a girl with an ASC it was more likely that I would be obedient. Many of the boys (not all) are much more defiant/stubborn, I've found over the years.

 

[szxmum]

Hi magenpie

 

This subject is very close to my heart at the moment as we are also worried about enabling our son to become dependant upon us. I think what you need to ask yourself is this - are we enabling our son to become dependant or independant?

 

I think as has been suggested above that structure is very important. Give him responsibilities and expect that they are complied with eg we have made my ds (17) responsible for contributing to the household budget. He pays for this out of his benefits and is happy to do so. He likes to feel that he is contributing to the running of the house and it is good for his self-esteem. During the week he gets up at 8 o'clock each morning - the rest of the family is up going to work, school, doing housework so it is expected that he gets up as well - no arguments. He makes his own breakfast and his own lunch. He is responsible for his own room (with A LOT of nagging ). He helps out with housework eg I wash the dishes and he dries them and vice versa. I like the idea of the laundry Bid, that's going on my list - ye Gods, the idea of letting my ds loose with an iron The important thing is that he is learning skills that will hopefully some day allow him to look after himself. I have at long last recognised that he needs to be physically taught and supported to enable him to learn - he is not the same as my daughter who watches, assimilates information and goes off, attempts it by herself and is successful 99% of the time.

 

Connections that Sally mentioned - this is something that I am just beginning to learn about. Does your son know or understand the importance of being dirty and know how to prevent it. The first time this was said to me I was horrified, I said, of course he knows, he's 17. Now I am not so sure. I'll try with a recent example to explain - for years we only had a bath in our house so we taught ds that if he did not want to have a full bath, he could wash his hair in the sink. We taught him to look out for when his hair was greasy (it becomes greasy a lot - he's 17) he knew then to have a bath or to wash his hair in the sink.

 

Early this year we had a bathroom refit, complete with shower - woohoo. During this time we had 3 days with only the loo plumbed in.

I spotted that ds was not brushing his teeth or washing his hair. I asked him why not, he said he couldn't because we had no sink in the bathroom. I had to explain that he could use the sink in the kitchen just like the rest of the family. He did not associate the kitchen sink or the fact that the rest of the family were using it with himself. He could not independently transfer or apply the previously learnt skill - wierd eh??!!

 

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know you are not alone. Good luck with everything <'>

Edited July 3, 2009 by szxmum

[The Magenpie]

Thank you for your suggestions, some which we have already tried and some which we will be taking on board.

 

We do have a set of house rules, which would take him all of 5 minutes a day. He refuses to do them because "it is my life to do what I want".

 

He is daily involved on the World of Warcraft gaming site but where we take this I don't know.

 

He is capable of looking after himself as he spent 3 years away at a specialist college where he lived "in" then "out" in a house with other students. He was ejected from the college for non attendance at lessons then failing to attend a work placement. He found a gaming shop in the city centre and spent all his money and time there. Even now, a year later, he still refers to this centre (which closed down over 9 months ago). He wanted to work there but the owners wanted people to be administrators -they refused him a job as they soon worked out he would be playing not working. We explain that such centres have had their day as they have closed all over the country.

 

I did take on board a suggestion made by a previous poster that he was not even "earning" his access to power, internet, food etc. Two nights ago we came home late to find him still on the computer way past the curfew time. He was caught red handed and tried to hoodwink his Dad with excuses and red herrings (he is a past master at this). However his Dad refused to listen this time and the access to the internet has been withdrawn. This has had the desired effect (even if we go out the internet access is behind a locked door) and miraculously he conforms to house rules.

 

We are currently drawing up a timetable as to what we (as parents) are planning to do in the near future, bearing in mind his Dad has just retired. This documents what we expect from him and what he will get in return. However it also will include a timescale for him to consider living on his own / with students which we are prepared to fund up to a certain point. This also includes seeking advice from external organisations / counsellors on his own initiative. He is capable of communicating with such organisations by the way - when people meet him for the first time they think he is like any other student.

 

Many thanks once again to you all - we definitely feel we are no longer on our own.

xx

[NobbyNobbs]

We do have a set of house rules, which would take him all of 5 minutes a day. He refuses to do them because "it is my life to do what I want".

it sounds like he has a pretty rotten attitude towards your household if he cannot make the effort to do a few simple things.

 

if it was in my household then there would be some tough love coming his way until he realised that if he wants other people to respect him, he needs to respect other people. if he truly wants to live his own life completely seperate from you, then you could suggest if he wants internet access he will have to pay for his own account... and food, water etc. then go through expenses, such as how much his internet connection will cost, how much for food a week, how much rent he needs to pay you as a tennant, and so on. provided this number is more than his income he should realise pretty fast that he needs to cooperate with your rules.

[Tally]

Sounds like good progress!

 

Many people do not respond well when you lay down the law like this. Don't be disheartened if it does not continue to go smoothly all the time.

[bettyhen]

I noticed that you mentioned he was into World of Warcraft. Numerous people have become addicted to this with terrible results - my own nephew, who was heading for a first, dropped out of university because of his addiction. My advice would be to google it and then look at ridding him of his addiction in the best way you can. Deal with the rest of it afterwards.

 

I hope you don't think I'm scaremongering but the whole family has been rocked by my nephew's experience. The Belgian Government take it so seriously that they support a group which helps WoW addicts!

[Kinda]

Hi

 

Not sure I can help but my son is 24 years old and AS (undiagnosed) and spends all his time in his bedroom on the computer. Has had a number of girlfriends but they end and the last one explained she did not want to look after him as he seemed incapable of it himself.

 

He's prone to obsession and depression and has now been off work for 4 months with depression. Tells his mum he want to change and needs to change but is still with his head in the computer.

 

I have told him I think most of what he wants he can obtain but needs to change his attitude if he wants relationships so he says OK and off he goes doing the same thing, head in computer, phone turned off and no awareness of looking after himself or what is going on around him. All his efforts all day are spent developing a web site which so far he's been doing for 4 months and its no where being ready.

 

When I discuss with him that he needs some balance in his life he walks away and puts his head in the computer again. I now think he is manipulative and my wife and I suffering a tired relationship as we seem to be very opposed to each others view on how to sort it.

 

I now find I am getting to the end of my emotional involvement as I can't take on board all of his problems and try and sort them out for him when he doesn't seem to want to sort it out himself other than when it all goes wrong.