Violence in my 7 year old

[kelly69]

Hi there,

 

i've just spent a couple of hours reading through the posts to see if I can find something that will help us.

 

My 7 year old son is undergoing diagnosis for an ASD. I say undergoing diagnosis, nothing has actually happened so far other than 2 meetings with 2 different school paediatricians (we moved house) who both say Aspergers. The most recent meeting was 23rd April where we were told she was referring him for an official diagnosis and we've heard nothing else.

 

Anyway in addition to suspected AS he has bowel and bladder issues. The bowel one we thought was under control with movicol and we had him going to the toilet regularly for about 6 weeks. If he hasn't been for a bowel movement his temper/attitude/behaviour is generally much worse.

 

I mentioned at our last paed appt that he is very and increasingly violent at home. He appears to cope through the school day but just is in a permanent meltdown at home and generally aims the worst of his violence towards me. I really don't know what to do, so far this week i've been kicked (a lot - my legs are black and blue), punched in the throat this morning and scratched and bitten. In the car he has very nearly made me crash from hitting the back of my seat/head.

 

He used to just aim it all at me or inanimate objects (like walls and doors) but recently he's started on my younger son too. This morning he punched him really hard in the chest and has left a mark.

 

I'm fairly sure its all to do with control but I don't know what sets him off. Once he's started he can't seem to stop himself either and usually doesn't remember any of it once he's calmed down and being lovely. His favourite line is 'you're NOT the boss'.

 

Any advice will be gratefully appreciated, I don't know whether I should go and see our GP or chase up the paediatrician or what. All I do know is its now 2 weeks until the summer holidays and then we'll have the best part of 2 months of this with him at home all the time.

 

thanks, Kelly

[Gavin]

Hi Kelly

 

We have similar problems with our 6 year old son, who has Aspergers. We have managed to reduce the frequency and length of these events with a very simple time-out system which is consistently applied. He can do the time-out wherever he is, we can walk away. If necessary we hold a door shut to contain him, time-out then starts when he quietens down. The time-out is ONLY used for violence against people or things and never for anything else and is always applied even if out in public etc.

 

At the same time we are learning about what underlies the behaviour and this helps us to communicate better with him, get him away from trigger situations etc. At the moment we are doing the NAS Earlybird+ course, in our area this is provided by a department of the council called ASSIST (Autism Spectrum Support something or other) but this may differ depending where you live. I expect you can find out via NAS or your local authority. This really is an excellent course because it helps you to see the underlying problems from the child's perspective, rather than just seeing the behavioural problems.

 

We are also using a visual timetable at home to good effect.

 

The Ross Greene book, 'The Explosive Child' is quite useful in understanding the triggers etc. and probably worth a read although it is a bit American / self-helpish.

 

Don't get me wrong, we are still having quite a few problems but not as bad as before and we don't feel quite so helpless. Perhaps some of these approaches could work for you too.

 

One other thing, is he stressed about anything at school and then bottling it up and releasing it at home?

 

Best of luck

 

Gavin

[kelly69]

Thanks for the reply Gavin,

 

I guess in my ramble this morning I should've listed the things we've tried so far. Its all very hard since we don't have a diagnosis and actually struggle to see what sets him off (other than not having had a poo for 12 days and counting).

 

We do try time out and I consistently remove him to the hall but he just wrecks everything and kicks the doors and walls and swings on the banister and it seems to aggravate him more. He definitly craves attention but also wants to control the attention.

 

We put a visual timetable into place on the advice of the paed (we had been having major difficulties getting him to school) but that's just a major trigger point for him. We've approached it several different ways but so far no joy. We're still persevering with it on days where he doesn't seem to be rumbling for a fight but on other days when he gets up with a rage it has to be removed before he rips it off the wall and starts trashing the kitchen.

 

I shall deffo look for the book though, the paed recommended another one and I can't remember what it's called. I shall have to ring her and find out,

 

I just don't know what to do for the best to be honest, when he's lovely, he's adorable. When he's in meltdown I could happily drive him to the countryside and leave him there. I might just ring the GP and see if he can find out what's happening with the referrals and take it from there.

 

ta, Kelly

[smiley1590]

 

i have ASi have at your son was alot older when they started to appear with me i have violence anger and agression problems i manage to change on my own with my own effort and hard work do you have any outside support from anywhere? CAMHS ? what about gettin practical advice from the NAS? has been a main trigger which progresses into a meltdown is he stressed and explodes after school due to isolation,frustration depression anxiety ???? XKLX i would read up on anger and agression in kids with ASD going on to as can get so complex issues mixed into physical could be something emotional going on even though physical shows through all time is he being bullied at school? not helped or supported at school?

 

 

[Mumble]

(other than not having had a poo for 12 days and counting).

Is it possible he's in pain and not able to recognise/express this to you? In which case he's possibly seeing other interventions and reacting in anger because they are not going to get rid of the physical pain. Have you taken him to your GP? I know that sometimes other people see me as 'in the grumps' before I actually recognise that I'm in pain or I don't know what to do to make the pain go away.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

(other than not having had a poo for 12 days and counting).

you need to take him to the doctors/hospital so they can deal with it. a family friend recently suffered a strange attack which was thought to have been a stroke, with further investigation they discovered it was because he hadn't had a poo for several weeks and had been poisoned by it. i would imagine that was an extreme reaction but the build up of toxins can't be doing him any good, and will make him in a very bad mood.

 

we had a child who had lots of problems going to the toilet and she would be in an absolutely foul mood when she couldnt go, and that was when she would throw things/rant/hit her siblings. it may well be that the poo he did 12 days ago wasn't a big enough one and he's got such a build up now hes gone beyond uncomfortable and can't cope.

 

if it is affecting his behaviour in such a serious way, considering his communication difficulties(ASD) it would be perfectly reasonablel to take him up to the hospital to deal with it ASAP, on the grounds that it might not be that and he could have something elsle wrong and not be able to communicate (not saying he has, just thats how you can explain it)

Edited June 11, 2009 by NobbyNobbs

[Kazzen161]

I always recommend the book:

 

"Aspergers Syndrome and Difficult Moments: practical solutions for tantrums, rage and meltdowns" by B Smith Myles and J Southwick.

 

It explains the rage cycle, and that you can prevent the behaviour (by removing or avoiding triggers), alter the behaviour (by teaching them a more acceptable response) or change the consequences.

 

Once he is at the meltdown stage, time-outs (as punishment) will only make things worse. He is out of control, and you cannot reason with him at that stage. As you come to recognise the triggers and signs, you will be able to use chill-outs (to calm down) at an earlier stage.

[kelly69]

I always recommend the book:

 

"Aspergers Syndrome and Difficult Moments: practical solutions for tantrums, rage and meltdowns" by B Smith Myles and J Southwick.

 

It explains the rage cycle, and that you can prevent the behaviour (by removing or avoiding triggers), alter the behaviour (by teaching them a more acceptable response) or change the consequences.

 

Once he is at the meltdown stage, time-outs (as punishment) will only make things worse. He is out of control, and you cannot reason with him at that stage. As you come to recognise the triggers and signs, you will be able to use chill-outs (to calm down) at an earlier stage.

 

 

Thanks Kazzen, I shall look for that book too.

 

 

Thanks also to NobbyNobbs and Mumble, I know that the poo does have something to do with it but we're no-where near his all time poo record yet. He's taking Movicol and Senna to get moving but nothing as yet. Over the weekend i'll put him on to the maximum dose and hopefully get him going. We do have a consultant at the hospital we can contact but DS has a terrible 'fear' of hospitals and doctors so we currently liase with the consultant through our GP (who DS likes) after a disastrous hospital appointment in March. If we make no progress over the weekend I'll keep him at home on Monday and contact the GP for advice.

 

Smiley, I don't know if anything is bothering him at school or not. His teacher often feels like he's forcing himself to be 'good' so maybe its just as simple as that. That he's used up all his 'good' in school and needs to let it out at home.

 

 

Thanks for all the advice, its somewhat reassuring to know that other people are coping with the exact same thing.

[Mum of 3]

Hi Kelly, welcome to the Forum. I can relate to everything you're saying.

In fact, my mum and I have both noticed my DS's bad behaviour/needs a poo correlation! Luckily for us, he goes every day, but we often have to tell him to go- and we've noticed the worse the behaviour, the bigger the poo! (sorry to be so graphic!). Feeling very foolish, I mentioned this to G's paed, but he looked at me like I was some kind of crazy woman who kept notes on her son's poos!!! (I don't think he quite realised what I meant when I said a big poo! )

I, however, remain convinced that somehow the toxins build up and he reacts adversly...maybe Mumble's right, and he is in pain or discomfort (he won't let on if he's in pain, I have to 'inspect' him to make sure there's nothing wrong with him!) due to needing a poo and not going in time.

G is also violent towards me in the same way you describe, and Time Out has been a night mare for us as well. The Ed Psych told us to try Social Stories, but he puts his fingers in his ears and hums when I try...and Visual Timetables, which he rips off the walls and throws away...I told her what he thinks of her strategies last Monday, and she couldn't believe it! She said she's never met an ASD/AS child who didn't respond to vis timetables and social stories! Well, she has now!

No answers whatsoever, but good to know we're not alone...There's safety in numbers!

[Mum of 3]

Oh, by the way, flax seeds (also known as linseeds) are good for 'getting things moving'.

Crush them in a pestle and mortar (otherwise they just come straight through...eventually! ), then soak them in water overnight. In the morning either drink the liquid (in milk or juice?), or pour it over cereal with the milk (to disguise it!), or add the whole lot, seeds and liquid to cereal.

Works a treat, I've found...might work for your DS.

[peaches]

We found that when our lad got the support he needed in school (i.e. a statement) his meltdowns and violence really subsided.

 

I also found using a 1-2-3 technique at home effective. I got this from a book I borrowed from CAMHS. When he offends, he gets counted. I say "thats 1 for hitting your sister" (no negotiation or debate) then " thats 2 for tripping her up" Then "Thats 2 for ..... whatever". When he gets 3 he has a choice. He can go to the foot of the stairs for 5 minutes time out or have no computer or electronic entertainment for the rest of the day. He used to hate time out until I pointed out that the option was no computer/Wii/DS etc and then he did his time. I used an hourglass. He used to be in time out a lot at first, but I havent had to put him in time out for ages now.

[kelly69]

Hi Kelly, welcome to the Forum. I can relate to everything you're saying.

In fact, my mum and I have both noticed my DS's bad behaviour/needs a poo correlation! Luckily for us, he goes every day, but we often have to tell him to go- and we've noticed the worse the behaviour, the bigger the poo! (sorry to be so graphic!). Feeling very foolish, I mentioned this to G's paed, but he looked at me like I was some kind of crazy woman who kept notes on her son's poos!!! (I don't think he quite realised what I meant when I said a big poo! )

I, however, remain convinced that somehow the toxins build up and he reacts adversly...maybe Mumble's right, and he is in pain or discomfort (he won't let on if he's in pain, I have to 'inspect' him to make sure there's nothing wrong with him!) due to needing a poo and not going in time.

G is also violent towards me in the same way you describe, and Time Out has been a night mare for us as well. The Ed Psych told us to try Social Stories, but he puts his fingers in his ears and hums when I try...and Visual Timetables, which he rips off the walls and throws away...I told her what he thinks of her strategies last Monday, and she couldn't believe it! She said she's never met an ASD/AS child who didn't respond to vis timetables and social stories! Well, she has now!

No answers whatsoever, but good to know we're not alone...There's safety in numbers!

 

 

 

What a relief that there's someone else out there having the same battles! Its also good to hear that Charlie isn't the only one who just doesn't like the timetables and such. I'm sure all his issues are to do with control so i'm going to reattempt the timetable but let him put the things on it instead.

 

Anyway the good news is that after a horrendous weekend of poo related incidents he finally managed to block the toilet yesterday and was an altogether happier boy this morning!

[Mum of 3]

Anyway the good news is that after a horrendous weekend of poo related incidents he finally managed to block the toilet yesterday and was an altogether happier boy this morning!

 

 

Just looking for the 'poo' emoticon!!!!

 

 

QUOTE (Kelly69):

"What a relief that there's someone else out there having the same battles! Its also good to hear that Charlie isn't the only one who just doesn't like the timetables and such. I'm sure all his issues are to do with control so i'm going to reattempt the timetable but let him put the things on it instead."

 

It's scary how similar our boys are. The Ed Psych suggested I get G to decide what goes on his vis Timetable, and to put it all on one sheet, so he can tick off each thing as he does it. She thought he'd like this as he is so keen to be 'in control', and refuses to be controlled.

 

So, I told him about this great idea, and how it would help him by letting him see what he'd already done, and what was left to be done when he's getting ready for school. He squirmed and squeeled and said he didn't want to ( he doesn't 'do' drawing, and refuses to write at all!)...so i persuaded him to try...he quickly and roughly drew 8 boxes on the sheet, then threw down the pencil and said. 'There. that's all I'm doing do the rest yourself!'. Nice!

 

Anyway, his Dad drew the pictures, whilst I did my Joyce Grenfell bit...('Now then, G, what do you do after you've put your pants on?'...'Go to school.'...'No, you put your trousers on, don't you?').

 

Then, when we'd done the D*** thing, he refused to tick it (he has problems making marks on paper, especially pre-printed things )...refused to put stickers on (can't see stickers coming off the sheet-they all have to stay on the original sheet, he can't cope with seeing 'gaps' on a sticker sheet )... Eventually, agreed to use 'tokens' (we use poker chips as a token/reward system, as he can 'collect' them, and count how many 'bits of goodness' he's managed!), which he puts on top of each picture as he's done it. Now the only problem is stopping his 2 little brothers from running off with the tokens!!!

[NobbyNobbs]

It's scary how similar our boys are. The Ed Psych suggested I get G to decide what goes on his vis Timetable, and to put it all on one sheet, so he can tick off each thing as he does it. She thought he'd like this as he is so keen to be 'in control', and refuses to be controlled.

we did something like that for two of our challenging kids. we filled in the non-negotiable bits like going to school, brushing teeth, and left them with after-school slots where they could choose what to do. (our ulterior motive was that we scheduled it so that the two children were never alone in a room together unsupervised because they fought so much). it worked well, they liked being ablel to see that they were doing the right thing

[Mum of 3]

we did something like that for two of our challenging kids. we filled in the non-negotiable bits like going to school, brushing teeth, and left them with after-school slots where they could choose what to do. (our ulterior motive was that we scheduled it so that the two children were never alone in a room together unsupervised because they fought so much). it worked well, they liked being ablel to see that they were doing the right thing

 

This sounds godd...What did you do when they took so long to do the non-negotiables that there was no time left for the 'free' stuff?

That's my main problem at the moment-he fills so much time having a tantrum about getting ready in the morning, there's no time left for anything else...then he has a tantrum about that!

[NobbyNobbs]

This sounds godd...What did you do when they took so long to do the non-negotiables that there was no time left for the 'free' stuff?

That's my main problem at the moment-he fills so much time having a tantrum about getting ready in the morning, there's no time left for anything else...then he has a tantrum about that!

we had everything timed to 5 minutes slots in the morning, 30 minutes in the afternoon. we continually counted down their times, and if they were running late we helped them to catch up in any way they could (getting clothes out for them etc, but only if they were running late). we gave them their free slots after something they would likely resist intentionally. for one, it was piano practice after school, then free time, for the other it was reading. if they refused to do their task, or messed about etc, then we told them that they would run out of time and have less fun time. at first they got upset about that, but we would remind them that they couldl have all their time the next day if they did X properly. it really put them in control of their lives and they were forever running back to the board (we used a big white board) to check what they were doing. they both got very proud when they did a whole section in the right amount of time. i think it took about 3 days for them to learn they needed to do what the board said to have their fun, so it was very successful very quickly, but only one of ours had an ASD.

[Mum of 3]

My DH's just said this year they've been using a whiteboard at work to write down what everyone's meant to be doing and he's found it really useful...

This sounds like a great idea, I think we'll definately be trying this.

[NobbyNobbs]

i just thought i'd clarify. when i helped them catch up in the mornings it would always be away from them. so i would preempt from their list and speed up the coming task - putting the toothpaste on the toothbrush while they were having breakfast etc, so that i had no involvement in what they were doing at the time. that way we avoided the 'i'm going to mess about so that i get your attention' thing. we had three kids in the house at the time so things were chaotic. looked after children have LOTS of appointments so it helped them make the most of their free time (after appointments they had 2 days afterschool and one day at the weekend left to do homework and play.

 

the white board was great, they loved being able to write on it for their free time so in the end we got a mini one they could draw on all the time

[Mandapanda]

Hi Kelly

 

My youngest used to have poo probs. He didn't want to go so held on which led to constipation. His behaviour would deteriorate and he wouldn't eat and would sit on piles of cushions. He ended up in hospital once because he kept fainting and being sick. They never found a cause, but he hadn't been for a while and was very constipated and I suspect that may have caused it. We got a brand new toilet seat and he was pleased to be the first one to use it. We didn't know then that he had issues with germs.

 

He hates routine and has seriously struggled at school, and has now not attended for over a year. He was a 'model child' at school as he would be trying very hard to be good and fit in, but when stressful things were happening at home, he could no longer manage to 'cope', and that's when he started saying he was ill and missing school. In my experience of my children and other ASD children I know, aggression/violence/bad behaviour is usually a sign of unhappiness, confusion or frustration.

 

We found clearly telling him (when we saw a situation deteriorating) to go to his room to CALM DOWN worked. It was not a punishment and we didn't say he couldn't do anything in there (although he usually didn't cos he was in such a mood!). We would tell him to come down when he was calm and we could talk about it.

 

He is very 'oppositional' and I believe he may have PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) - info on NAS website. The normal tactics we had used with our eldest to good effect with AS do not work at all. Sometimes it's worth trying something which appears to go against all common sense and what is recommended by professionals/experts - if you don't know what is causing it you can't address the problem directly so need to approach it from a totally different angle.

 

Avoiding confrontation wherever possible and keeping yourself safe, in my opinion, should be your priority until you can work out what the real problem is. He will likely feel bad if he hurts you, even if he doesn't show it, it will chip away at his self-esteem.

 

Good luck.

 

 

[kelly69]

I just wanted to do a wee update on DS1 since it's been a couple of months and we've had some developments.

 

 

At the end of June we got an appointment through to go and see the Community Child Health Paed at the hospital (following on from the interview with the paed that comes into school).

 

We went to that and Charlie was a bit nervous but not the worst i've seen him. There were 3 doctors in the room (2 women and 1 man), one lady interviewed me for the hour going through his entire history and the other 2 played games with Charlie, including making masks and playing connect 4.

 

At the end of the appointment they had come to the conclusion that his most likely diagnosis will be HFA/AS as well as ADHD. This was the first time ADHD had come up in any conversations but from their observations and my history of him that's what they think.

 

I was sent 2 questionnaires in the post by the doctor, one for ADHD, one for autism. I have completed them and returned them. We are now waiting to go back to school (next week!) and the school will complete the same questionnaires and a history of what he's like at school and then we'll go for another hour long appointment where he will do the same things but without me and will be videoed. Standard practice from what i've heard!

 

So that was all very positive and then he surprised us all, his dad took him on holiday and bribed him to poo for a fortnight! Every day that he did a poo he got an ice cream. He continued this when he came home and we made an agreement that he'd wipe his own bottom and not flush so that my DH could check later in the evening that he'd been for one (I work evenings). So for the past 5 weeks he's been pooing around 4 or 5 times a week!

 

Then 3 weeks ago I told DS2 that I was taking him out of night time nappies as he was big enough now to manage without them. I never said anything to Charlie other than the fact that it was up to him if he wanted to try without or not (up till this point he'd always been soaked in the morning even with a nappy on). Charlie said he was continuing with nappies but secretly decided not to! In the past 3 weeks we've only had 1 night time accident from him.

 

So that's 2 major things he's managed to get his head around and i'm sooooo happy, both for him and me! We are still having a lot of meltdowns and violence but probably not quite as sustained as they were prior to the pooing regularly. Each time he hits out at either me or ds2 he is told quite clearly that he is not allowed to hit people. Hopefully by repeating this message he'll 'get' it.

 

Then last week we had a social worker round from the family support unit, she is going to look into getting us a family support worker who has experience with violent behaviour so that they can do some work with Charlie into controlling his behaviours.

 

So major progress this summer!

[smiley1590]

you know said he has issues with new toilet seat and germs has OCD been mentioned or this could be connected to autism though has this been followed up good tht you have some rough idea over what might be there now -ADHD and autism good that social worker looking into family support worker who has experience of dealing with violent behaviour all positive steps forward towards helping your son progress and improve in his future goals agression and violence can be common in autistic behaviours of like you said expressing frustration of feelings and emotions he can't verbalise i hope help and support helps whole family involved!

 

good luck

i'm pleased about your news it's wonderful steps being put in place for you all and can only benefit you and him!

at least he trying to go toilet on his own independant!!! congrats victory!

 

you just waiting to hear back from report of official assessment??? PDA /ADHD both behavioural implusive disorders has very similiar signs!!! so easy get confused over what it could be when hear so many diagnosis on spectrum!

 

XKLX