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thebuzzer

Being Deliberately Rude is this Aspergers trait or what?!

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If your AS children (or yourself if AS) does not like someone do they have no regard for their feelings? My son will care about peoples feelings if he likes them, but if has made up his mind he does not like you for whatever small reason (the way someone looks for example) he can be very rude, unkind and physically aggressive.

 

 

He has taken a nose dive over the last few weeks at school. He has become very rude. He has always disliked his teacher and has no time for her and she for him if we are honest (if you can, you can see my posts from last year explaining that). He does not like one of his assistants because he says she said he was lying when he went to her to say a boy had hurt him. She did not call him a liar but said she did not see that what the boy did was hurting, it was in my son's eyes. We sorted out the misunderstanding, but he cannot forgive or forget. Today he called her a fat pig, I am mortified. We just do no accept that sort of behaviour at home, we have firm and consistent boundaries. But as far as he is concerned anything goes at school and he will just say what he thinks. If the teacher tells somone off he mimicks her or says she is horrible for telling the child off. The other children snigger as they do not like her (she is quite scary) but DS is disrupting and undermining her and it's not on - he knows how we feel about what he is doing, he says he cares we are upset, but because he doesn't like her he isn't going to stop!!!!!!!

 

Am I being thick, I am reading all my books on Aspergers, but cannot find anything about being 'deliberately' rude, only that Aspies can 'appear' rude as they are brutally honest.

 

He has a statement for 22.5 hours and is in Year 2 doing part time still! - well not surprising

 

Please tell me we are not alone!

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I am in a fairly similar position. If my son decides that he does not like someone (so far it has been children) then he is very very rude. He gets into verbal arguments all the time with people at school to the extend that he is pretty much in isolation in the playground at the moment. He seems on a permanent vendetta, it is tiresome. I don't know what your son is like but mine seems to only have a couple of 'modes'. Either he is very nice or he is really horrid, nothing in-between and the older he gets, the worse it gets. It is as if he feels 'entitled' to say his anger, annoyance....

I think the school is too tolerant and that my son needs someone who is extremely clear as to where the boundaries are because so far the nice messages have been very ineffective.

I think it is a very asperger behaviour. No feeling for others and being very blunt. If you look in books that trait really comes through.

I have no solution though, so ideas welcome!

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bid   
No feeling for others and being very blunt. If you look in books that trait really comes through.

 

Sorry, but I really don't think this is true. For myself, if I had no feelings for others I wouldn't be able to do my job (looking after children and young adults with severe and complex learning difficulties and health needs). I have also experienced my son being very caring about others.

 

Back to the OP: if this is happening in school I think they need to be putting firmer boundaries in place with suitable consequences for this behaviour.

 

I wonder if a social story about being rude, etc, might help too at home and school?

 

Hope you can get things sorted.

 

Bid :)

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i would certainly not be rude to someone intentionally. i often appear rude, in that i answer very shortly and try to walk off as soon as possible if i dont want to talk to someone, but i'm never intentionally rude. perhaps he's just behaving in this way because he knows he can get away with it at school? you could discuss sanctions you feel appropriate like bid said, or impose a sanction at home for unacceptable school behaviour.

 

AS people CAN learn social rules, it just takes longer and doesn't necessarily all click into the same places as 'normal' people.

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bid   
Sorry :whistle: ! Did not mean to be offensive.

 

It's OK, I expect you were just being blunt! ;):lol:

 

Seriously, I think that being deliberately rude or blunt (think of all those Northerners who announce their 'bluntness' with such pride) are just human traits rather than specifically autistic traits.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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baddad   

You've answered your own question, really, from your observation that he doesn't behave that way with people he likes. It's not a question of anything 'making' him behave that way - autism or otherwise.

If you have firm boundaries at home I'd start extending them to include school; bearing in mind that what school can do in the way of enforcing reasonable behaviour may not seem particularly worrying to him, especially if he feels he's gaining kudos with his peers with this behaviour. Ultimately, calling teachers fat pigs and mocking them when they try to discipline the class could lead to exclusion... May well be your son would think that was a reward rather than a punishment, especially if the other kids were feeding that delusion.

Generally I think that school should be school and home home as far as discipline goes, but when a kid is playing that rule to their own advantage (as is happening here) it's time for a rethink...

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Sally44   

Although I agree that if your child can intentionally avoid being rude with people he likes, and is deliberately rude with people he doesn't like then the chances are that he is doing it deliberately. Could that be down to Aspergers? IMO it might be because he isn't seeing the social implications of what he is doing eg. it is backfiring on him. Most of us might also think what your son says, but would just zip our lips. It might also be down to a 'truth and justice' thing where he feels they wronged him and have not apologised and therefore he feels he can be as horrid as he likes with them as they were horrid with him.

I would try a Social Story. There are always people in life that we don't like, who make wrong judgements, or who do not have nice characteristics. But when we are rude or nasty to them it is a reflection on us because other people do not know the history between the two people involved. (That is quite a complex social thought process to get across to a child of his age). And that he will get get the reputation of the nasty rude child in class XXX. And although his classmates might laugh (does he feel that makes him popular?), they are not the ones saying it and therefore are not getting into trouble like he is.

 

Or he might be totally aware of all of this, but just not care. It depends on how strongly he feels the need to fit in and not be noticed. Although my son does not do this, I do notice that he does not have a desire to 'please me' or his teachers. I was told that this is an ASD characteristic. Most children (and adults) do try to please other people because they like praise. It is the same with reward star charts. Most kids love them. Most ASD children just don't get it.

 

Also is he quite calm when he is saying these things? In a meltdown my son can say and do the most horrible things, but is mortified with himself afterwards and gets quite depressed that he cannot control himself.

 

As this behaviour is happening in school have school asked for any advice from outside professionals? I'm not sure who would best suit this. It might be SALT as in the Social Use of Language. Or EP regarding cognitiion and thought processes. But in his best interests I think they should be trying to reduce and stop this behaviour otherwise this could get into a circle of misbehaving because he understands that that reduces his hours in school. It doesn't take long for my son to catch onto any reason that could reduce his hours in school eg. feeling sick,, headaches, head itching (school sends children home with itching heads because they suspect head lice!).

But they need to look into it first to see what might be motivating him to behave like this.

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Mum of 3   
We just do no accept that sort of behaviour at home, we have firm and consistent boundaries. But as far as he is concerned anything goes at school and he will just say what he thinks. If the teacher tells somone off he mimicks her or says she is horrible for telling the child off. The other children snigger as they do not like her (she is quite scary) but DS is disrupting and undermining her and it's not on - he knows how we feel about what he is doing, he says he cares we are upset, but because he doesn't like her he isn't going to stop!!!!!!!

 

Please tell me we are not alone!

 

First of all, I'm sure you're not alone, and your DS behaves well with you, so you know he's able to behave acceptably in some contexts...the trick is to extend that into other areas, where your influence is less strong.

 

I think it's significant that you point out that '...at home, we have firm and consistent boundaries.' The subtext of this seems to be that there aren't such boundaries at school. If this is the case, then they need to be doing something about it. I believe that schools that bring parents in to deal with their childrens' behaviour are, quite frannkly, passing the buck. Teachers are trained professionals, and part of there job is to ensure that they are making school a child-friendly place where children are taught how to learn and to behave acceptably, and also to create an atmosphere where behaviour such as you describe is simply not necessary, let alone not acceptable. It is unfair of the teacher to expect you to be able to keep your son in check when you're not even there.

 

From your post, it sounds as if this teacher is trying to impose discipline from above 'she's very scary...the other children don't like her...she tells them off...' This is not an efficient way of disciplining any child, but with our children it will backfire badly (I speak from hard-won experience!). It sounds as though your DS is trying to deal with being in a place where he doesn't feel safe (he thought the assistant said he was 'lying'...this suggests he doesn't trust the staff to be 'on his side' and support/help him out), and his behaviour, such as mimicking the teacher, could be a nervous reaction. If she's really scary, he could feel threatened when she's telling others off-especially if this usually sets her into a bad mood with others.

 

Is it possible that his 'mimicking' is simply a form of acholalia, which comes out when he's under stress? Certainly, it sounds as though this teacher needs to sort out her own practices, and look at how her behaviour might influence the children's. If it were me, I'd be speaking to the head Teacher about all these issues, and let him/her decide if he/she is satisfied that the teacher is doing things right.

 

Having said all this, I don't think you should let on to your little one any hint of any negative feelings you have for the teacher. Hints of your own feelings are coming through to me in your post, and I do wonder if your DS thinks you don't like his teacher. If this is the case, he will find it very difficult to understand why you expect him to show her respect. No matter what your views on her as a teacher, you must show your DS that you stand with the school on matters of discipline...this will help him to behave at school as he does at home. He should know that you don't find his behaviour acceptable.

 

 

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In my son's case to say that he does it intentionally is true and not true. He just speaks his mind all the time. He cannot see why he can't do it. He does not seem to understand the consequences. He has managed to alienate the whole class. Yesterday he was in front of his sister in the queue to lunch and she was giggling with a friend. He just turned round and started yelling at her and asking her what she was doing with such a stupid girl. Stupid is a favourite word at the moment. If he thinks someone is 'thick' (another favourite word) he cannot leave that person alone to get on with their business, he has to go in their face and tell them how thick they are because they NEED to know!!!!! He is incredibly angry that the others have rejected him and his only way to deal with it is to be verbally agressive. He desperately wants other children to like and include him but he cannot change his personality to make this happen so as I said yesterday, he is on a vendetta.

Edited by frogslegs

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Guest featherways   
Guest featherways

Certainly younger individuals and those whose social skills bits of the brain have hardly any wiring can seem very rude indeed. Others of us learn not to be.

 

And most of us do care a huge amount about other people, but might care in the 'wrong ways'. For us, telling us straight factual information is often ideal. We might not need anyone to say thank you or please or hello or goodbye, and actually find those things really stressful because it's a whole avalanche of eye contact and smiling and facial expressions and tones of voice and handshakes and social kissing and arrggh. :wacko:

 

So we try to treat people with really straightforward info, and they're horrified. Add to that, we can't hear our own tone of voice so we sound loud, blunt, pedantic and rude (arrghh!). And we copy things we hear from others, so if we hear cartoons where everyone's called stupid, we think it's ok, and have to unlearn all of that.

 

I had parents who were hugely strict with me about manners, and a school that was the same, and I think that 'saved' me. Temple Grandin said the same thing.

 

 

 

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baddad   

Hi again -

 

Looking at Sally 44's/Mum of 3's posts it worries me to see how - even though both have acknowledged that he is not acting entirely on impulse or through lack of awareness - autism is still the focus of the reason why your son is behaving in this way. Sally44 has offered suggestions that he 'doesn't see the implications of his behaviour' or that he has an overactive sense of 'injustice' while mum to 3 has suggested his behaviours could be triggered by a fear response, echolalia or down to bad practice on behalf of the teacher/school...

Why not just accept what all the obvious signs suggest; that he is a young boy playing the smartarse? There doesn't have to be an 'autistic' reason for this - I'm sure any teacher/any school will tell you that there are plenty of kids not on the spectrum who behave in exactly the same ways.

I also disagree with mum of 3's suggestion that the school is/would be 'passing the buck' by asking for the parents support and cooperation in dealing with this situation. The simple fact is that in most cases the influence/opinions of parents/significant adults in the home is a far more powerful 'motivator' than that of school staff, especially if they are staff who children have already decided they don't like. It's also, as I stated in my original post, far more likely that 'home' can provide opportunities for effective sanctions (i.e. the loss of privelege that actually mean something to the child) than the school environment can. In fact, if schools do try to offer effective sanctions (i.e. detentions that actually impact on the childs free time rather than just playtimes that they may not enjoy anyway, or exclusion from school activities that they actually do enjoy) it's often the case that parents will argue to have them lifted.

From everything you've said about this situation and your son's ability to behave differently towards people he 'likes' there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he is acting out of fear or because he needs a social story to tell him that calling teachers 'fat pigs' and undermining their efforts to teach a class is inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Baddad, I ended up going to school this morning and asking them to be more severe with my son. Believe me I am a tough cookie and strict with him. BUT my son, cannot accept responsability for his actions. Being nice, polite, sociable means in many ways to be hypocritical and, in my little experience, this is something that Asperger children can't do. He is not rude to teachers but I can see that day coming DESPITE the strict upbringing (God knows what he would be like if we were not strict).

I constantly offer to work with the school and I really long for the day when my son sees the light, before he goes to secondary would be nice because I worry that eventually someone is going to turn round and thump him.

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baddad   
Baddad, I ended up going to school this morning and asking them to be more severe with my son. Believe me I am a tough cookie and strict with him. BUT my son, cannot accept responsability for his actions. Being nice, polite, sociable means in many ways to be hypocritical and, in my little experience, this is something that Asperger children can't do. He is not rude to teachers but I can see that day coming DESPITE the strict upbringing (God knows what he would be like if we were not strict).

I constantly offer to work with the school and I really long for the day when my son sees the light, before he goes to secondary would be nice because I worry that eventually someone is going to turn round and thump him.

 

Hi frogslegs - I'm replying to you as you've specifically directed your reply to me...

What you've outlined in this post is very different to what the OP outlined: your son isn't adjusting his behaviour on the basis of who he likes and who he doesn't like. Autistic children (and adults) can do polite, sociable, nice etc - it's certainly not something they're incapable of doing, though there may be complications in achieving understanding about why it's necessary etc etc... You said in Your first post that your son 'can't see' the consequences, but he can: much of the behaviour he exhibits arises primarily from the fact that he can see the consequences and feels alienated and angry because of them. That's a vicious circle I think most parents of autistic children and many parents of non-autistic children can identify with, and I'm sure lots of the adults on the forum (autistic or otherwise) can identify in their own histories. It's not, however - unless I've missed something - what's being described in the OP where the child is being selectively aggressive/rude/indifferent, which suggests an entirely different level of understanding.

Hope that clarifies things.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

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Sally44   
Hi again -

 

Looking at Sally 44's/Mum of 3's posts it worries me to see how - even though both have acknowledged that he is not acting entirely on impulse or through lack of awareness - autism is still the focus of the reason why your son is behaving in this way. Sally44 has offered suggestions that he 'doesn't see the implications of his behaviour' or that he has an overactive sense of 'injustice' while mum to 3 has suggested his behaviours could be triggered by a fear response, echolalia or down to bad practice on behalf of the teacher/school...

Why not just accept what all the obvious signs suggest; that he is a young boy playing the smartarse? There doesn't have to be an 'autistic' reason for this - I'm sure any teacher/any school will tell you that there are plenty of kids not on the spectrum who behave in exactly the same ways.

I also disagree with mum of 3's suggestion that the school is/would be 'passing the buck' by asking for the parents support and cooperation in dealing with this situation. The simple fact is that in most cases the influence/opinions of parents/significant adults in the home is a far more powerful 'motivator' than that of school staff, especially if they are staff who children have already decided they don't like. It's also, as I stated in my original post, far more likely that 'home' can provide opportunities for effective sanctions (i.e. the loss of privelege that actually mean something to the child) than the school environment can. In fact, if schools do try to offer effective sanctions (i.e. detentions that actually impact on the childs free time rather than just playtimes that they may not enjoy anyway, or exclusion from school activities that they actually do enjoy) it's often the case that parents will argue to have them lifted.

From everything you've said about this situation and your son's ability to behave differently towards people he 'likes' there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he is acting out of fear or because he needs a social story to tell him that calling teachers 'fat pigs' and undermining their efforts to teach a class is inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Whilst I agree any child with an ASD might just be being rude or disruptive there are aspects of ASD/Aspergers that can have an effect on that and surely those need to be looked at to ensure that the child does understand what they are doing and is taught the appropriate social behaviour and any punishment has to be relevant to the child. At his former school my son was told off for being 'silly' and 'disruptive' because he was echolalic and his attempts to communicate were seen as attention seeking and silliness that he did to make the other children laugh. The fact that he had a meltdown when they laughed at him didn't seem to make them wonder whether his aim was for attention! And only yesterday he called me 'big and fat' because I couldn't catch him! If I were to talk to him about how someone might feel if they were told that, then he might say 'sad'. But that is with me talking him through the scenario. It doesn't come automatically otherwise he wouldn't say these things. I've also had all the cartoon language used in school eg. 'stupid', 'loser' 'shut your big-fat-gob' (off Tracy Beaker). And he does not do it to shock. That is how he has learnt language and it is only now with intensive SALT input that his social language is much improved and so is his confidence which has had a positive knock on effect on his social interaction and play skills. And more importantly he is using the words that are bringing him success rather than using something pre-recorded from TV and regurgitated at what he considers an appropriate situation.

I agree that there should be boundaries and discipline. But some children do need to be shown and taught that being disrespectful (and what disrespectful means) to someone in authority (and what that means) is not acceptable. You can't assume they are working with the same knowledge and skill base as the other children in the class.

I think any parent is willing to work with a school and professionals that are willing to seriously address it.

At my son's previous school his impulsiveness was considered 'naughty' and every lesson he would not sit still and do his work he was given a cross on his workcard. This caused endless meltdowns, headaches, sickness and school refusal. Then some 3 years later, when they actually fully assessed his skills base and language understanding they informed me that he had never been capable of doing his work because he did not understand it. So, rather than making assumptions, I believe that any child showing any difficulty needs to be assessed to see that they have the skill base to actually do it in the first place and if they don't then a programme that teaches them that skill should be put into place.

If, on assessments, the child does have the understanding and skills to control themselves if they wished and does have the social interaction skills to see what they are doing to themselves, the teacher and their classmates - then by all means jump straight in with punishment. If the child does need to learn certain skills then those need to be taught and then when they are achieving it you can then bring in punishment if they revert back to previous behaviour. But even then you have to consider that our children do learn and then lose skills and may infact need to re-learn the whole process again. This has happened several times with my son and his noted on his school reports that he learns and frequently forgets things and has to learn them again. And his SALT has also said that social skills need to be monitored to ensure they remain and that periodically he should be monitored to see that he is still using these skills.

I have been proved right on many occasions with my son. And I have received enough apologies from school, professionals and my own LEA as to how they have let him down. I don't want apologies after someone has messed up. I want the system to do what it is supposed to be doing. I am strict with my own child and I will allow school to be just as strict if we are all in agreement.

Infact up until quite recently I was told that my son wanting to walk up and down the fence line and repeat TV dialogue was something I should allow my son to do, as 'XXX needs to be allowed to be autistic'. And yes, his behaviour was definately autistic, but could something be done to improve his social skills to an extent that he did not have to reply on this behaviour as a way of filling up playtime? Yes it could, and yes we did. He doesn't do that anymore. He has improved so much with interaction and play skills that he can even play football with the rest of the children - which is something I never thought I would see. :thumbs:

Just because a behaviour might be connected to autism in someway does not mean I am excusing it. Quite the opposite. I think many skills can be taught and used by our children when those involved have the time and motivation to attempt it.

And I am not saying that it is always down to autism. But I think you always have to check that. In the same way that I presume that your saying it isn't to do with autism is not something you automatically say about your own child without considering their skills and how autism affects them.

 

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Locwood   

Hi there. I am only just getting to grips with my sons disorders. he is 5yrs old witha speech and language disorder and currently going for a second opinion on ASD (Autism as opposed to Aspergers).

I also know a child that is high functioning aspergers. As with all children we have to remember that they all learn, but in different ways. They are also very clever. I believe that our children are able to make decisions on who they like more than others (one son only wants to go to school on the days he has a certain teacher). The limited or miswired socail skills they have are what impact on how they express their feelings, deal with their feelings, remembering they do not understand their own feelings sometimes let alone others!!

 

Going back to the point of not liking a teacher, I feel it is really key to understand why. our kids on the spectrum hold grudges for a long time because they are not equipped with the right skills at the right time to get over something that has happened they didn't like. Social stories do work in the broader spectrum of situations, but when it s quite clearly aimed at specific people, it needs to be indentified as to why. It is very difficult though when something has happened at school and you get one story from your child (a simple black and white version) and then another story from the school (very grey and wishy washy). 9 times out of 10 our kids are right on the version of events but schools will stand together in what they feel is right and those situations have to be handled diplomatically (not easy!)

 

Being rude is unacceptable and sometimes not exusable though. Strategies, alog with routine and rules work well with all asd children. Teaching those rules and strategies take time, but once they have learnt them, they will begin to put them into practice. My son when under stress and doesn't agree with something, will shout out things like "you are wrong" "you have failed" purely because he has limited vocabulary, but I'm sure the day will come when the words are stronger and we will have to work with him to chose the right words, but to also understand why he feels he doesn't like that person.

J

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bid   

Mulling this over, it actually doesn't matter whether negative behaviour is 'autistic' or not...

 

What does matter is that any consequences, sanctions or behaviour modification techniques are tailored to the autistic mind.

 

A good example would be Sally44 mentioning that star charts don't work for autistic children. In my personal and professional experience she is correct in that star charts that involve earning stars for a treat at the end of a week don't indeed work for autistic children...

 

But tweak this behaviour modification technique to be autism-appropriate, so that the child is working towards earning immediate, desirable goals within a much smaller timescale, e.g. each day broken down into sections...and this can be hugely successful in targetting negative behaviour.

 

Hope this makes sense, as I think this is a very, very important distinction. Negative behaviour patterns are pretty much universal across the human condition, autistic or otherwise. What is important is that the approach to behaviour modification is autism-appropriate.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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baddad   
Whilst I agree any child with an ASD might just be being rude or disruptive there are aspects of ASD/Aspergers that can have an effect on that and surely those need to be looked at to ensure that the child does understand what they are doing and is taught the appropriate social behaviour and any punishment has to be relevant to the child.

 

I agree with all of that, but there's a big difference between 'looking into' the possibility that autism is part of a behaviour and an assumption that it is/must be somehow connected, and the possibility that it is 'natural' behaviour, taking into account age, temperament, psychology and all the other factors that impact on human responses should not be rejected out of hand. No, you can't assume that an autistic child (or any child with behavioural/social problems) is working with the same knowledge or skill base, but neither can/should you assume that when they do demonstrate an approprriate level of understanding in one situation but not another that it is because of some sort of compromised understanding or inability to transfer skill sets to new environments. Chances are, there are less complicated and much more 'natural' motivators coming in to play.

In this case the content of the original post suggests that the child does know what being disrespectful means, because by choice he is demonstrating non-disrespectful behaviour when the situation demands or when it suits him. Why go out of the way to find an 'alrternative' explanation when the most obvious one is staring you in the face? He is a child, and as things stand right now he thinks he can get away with it. Parents want schools to recognise their childs autistic features (quite rightly) but there seems to be a huge reluctance on the part of many autistic parents to recognise that their kids are first and foremost human beings, and that the vast majority of their behaviours (whether compromised by autism or not) arise from exactly the same psychological drives. So why go out of the way to find an explanation for the behaviour that qualifies it?

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited by baddad

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bid   
so why go out of the way to find an explanation for the behaviour that qualifies and excuses it?

 

My reading of this thread is that the posters are rather trying to understand the behaviour. No-one has said that this behaviour should be tolerated, in fact the various posters have suggested social stories and firmer boundaries and consequences within school.

 

You may not agree with their understanding...but that is not the same as these posters 'qualifying and excusing' this child's behaviour.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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baddad   

In the simplest of terms, refering back to the title of the OP -

Q: Being deliberately rude: is this Asperger's trait or what?!

A: IMO, no.

 

 

L&P

 

BD :D

Edited by Kathryn

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bid   

I shall bow out now, but I hope you have got some useful ideas from the thread, thebuzzer :)

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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i think it can be AS strong charectistic personality trait coming across as blunt honest and rude at times but sometimes just the way we see things through 'our eyes' and 'world' we don't see anything wrong with stating what we see as the truth of information though NT's see different hard going to know what to do for the best deal and cope with type of behaviour! does he do this outside school? to others not just this teacher? is maybe because she don't understand his needs etc? do you think this teacher supports him well and the school? do you have much 'outside' help and support at all? deal with verbal agressiveness etc? does he have anger probs at home? maybe he frustrated,isolated depressed? this there particular meaning behind him showing this kind of behaviour? do you think he knows what he doing and knows it wrong and that hurts and upsets people alot?

 

take care

good luck

XKLX

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i know myself i can be honest rude and blunt with what i say and do sometimes! so do personally believe it AS based even it isn't all of it? is he trying to express his head thoughts and feelings through this behaviour? XKX

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Tally   

Asperger's makes it hard for us to relate to other people or understand their feelings. Therefore, we fail to take them into account because we are not aware of them. This may make us appear as if we do not care about people's feelings, when in reality we are often simply unaware of them. But it seems like your son does understand that calling someone is a fat pig is offensive and likely to upset them. It seems that he might have adopted the logic that only nice people's feelings matter. This may or may not be caused by the Asperger's and his limited understanding of other people, but it does seem clear that he understands that the things he is saying are hurtful, and is saying them deliberately to hurt.

 

If he doesn't understand why it's wrong to be rude to people who aren't nice, your best bet may be to look at other reasons why this behaviour is unacceptable. For example, "if you are rude to your teacher, you will get into trouble." (And then agree a consistent course of action whenever he is rude.)

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Sally44   
Mulling this over, it actually doesn't matter whether negative behaviour is 'autistic' or not...

 

What does matter is that any consequences, sanctions or behaviour modification techniques are tailored to the autistic mind.

 

A good example would be Sally44 mentioning that star charts don't work for autistic children. In my personal and professional experience she is correct in that star charts that involve earning stars for a treat at the end of a week don't indeed work for autistic children...

 

But tweak this behaviour modification technique to be autism-appropriate, so that the child is working towards earning immediate, desirable goals within a much smaller timescale, e.g. each day broken down into sections...and this can be hugely successful in targetting negative behaviour.

 

Hope this makes sense, as I think this is a very, very important distinction. Negative behaviour patterns are pretty much universal across the human condition, autistic or otherwise. What is important is that the approach to behaviour modification is autism-appropriate.

 

Bid :)

 

Totally agree. But sometimes it is getting the school to even recognise that a bit of tweaking would have such good results. And I have had it said to me that 'it has to be the same for all the children'. But I feel they are missing the point. If child 'A' responds with star charts use them; and if child 'B' responds with choosing a puzzle to do, then choose that. Sometimes I did get the impression that the rigid 'systems' or routines within the school were more autistic then my own child!

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Well thank you to everyone who has responded, I didn't expect such a response!

 

There is so much said that I agree with!

 

There is a history with this teacher, he had her from the begining of last year and they really got off on the wrong foot. She handled him very badly and he has never gotten over that. I have never let him know my feelings about her, in fact I have meetings with her for his psp every 2 weeks and feel that deep down she is very caring, but out of her depth. There are parents that have seen the head and said that if their children are put in her class next year they will withdraw their child. Anyway, that does not excuse DS's rudeness. It has increased lately, we are trying to figure out why. He does find it very hard to forgive any 'indescretions' on another persons part and we do do social stories at school too. His LSA's have a very good insight into him. He hurt one of his friends to day because she spoke to him with her mouth full and sprayed him with crisps. He was adamant she had done it deliberately, but both his LSA and I explained that under no circumstances can you hurt. He was taken to the Deputy Head who really told him off then when he got back to his 'quiet room' off the classroom, errupted for 20 minutes. That was not an AS meltdown, but a full blown paddy at getting really told off for something he thinks he is justified at doing! I find myself scared and upset that he does this when we have always set a good example, neither my husband or I go off on one, we are human and get upset but not for him to learn that. When he was little and had the terrible twos I would put him down, walk into the other room etc until he calmed down and they pretty much stopped. But because of the safety of the other children the staff have to 'react' and he knows this gets attention.

 

We do a reward system with the reward at the end of the morning, the time has increased over the last year as at first it was too long for him to wait. Its the consequences we are having to rethink at the moment. He looses his playstation time if he hurts anyone and up until yesterday he hadn't hurt in weeks. Escalating again. I had a 45 min emergency meeting with the Head yesterday when I picked him up when I was told what had happened and asked her to get the social communication team back in asap. She agreed.

 

I am aware that the behaviour he is exhibiting could well get him excluded, I work at and EBD school nearby KS3, so know full well the system as it were.

 

I can't remember who said it but I think it is important for me to try and find out why he is doing this as well as him knowing it is not acceptable. He says every day "Is it stupid school today?" and says he hates, but can come out beaming some days and according to his LSA's can have a great time.

 

He does mimick at home, which is not allowed. He says he heard another boy do it - who knows? He can dissolve very quickly into floods of tears at the tone of someones voice and to me it is my most calm but firm voice and yet to us he can snarl and say "how dare you speak to me like that!" We are working on that one too!

 

Phew run out of steam now!

 

 

Edited by thebuzzer

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the finding tone of voice upsetting scary AS thing too can be quite hard to take and accept when you can't understand the meaning behind why you use and when for what type of conversation and situation can be confusing frustrating etc he said how dare you speak me like that get angry at himself but venting at you as doesn't get why gets that way himself in that mental state! i get annoyed at my mum for saying something in certain way by her tone of voice as quite harsh deep tone this mixes my head waves up loads more my dad has quiet voice so prefer that even though looking back after i get uncomfortable i can it irrational in kinda way but not cause AS i can't help control the way brain processes information well! doesn't like it much! but try fight it alot time get so tired worn down of battling that's way your son probably like has meltdown when he cries as can't verbally explain enough what happening and goin on in his world and brain! and he struggles to know himself!

 

i think get help to work on develop and improve on social communication skills is something he will positively benefit from may decrease negative behaviour patterns as this being supported to thrive so may his low self-esteem etc and his agression verbal nastiness may decrease in time too! good idea of head to call you in and talk action plan right away for him emergency meeting sounds like couldn't come at better time! social stories also another good practice example help him encourage and support him along in this complicated process! maybe trying to gain attention and control together?

 

is ADHD.ODD a likely possibilty have they been ruled out? you would know signs if work in EBD school yourself? has this been looked into?

 

XKX

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are certain situations triggers that keep occuring when negative behaviour happens maybe keep record/log of surrounding things to keep track and then look back and see of any common connections to make it keep coming back!? to have a book the LSA writes in tell you whether he been verbally aggressive/abusive etc and what happened during that day how moods and feelings been? etc does he have MH probs? anger? depression? anxiety? stupid school coming over anger frustration bitterness how much support he entitled to at school? do you think needs wind down time? reflection time? one to one thought/feelings time? is there special class/unit he could join? maybe he sees and feels odd weird silly etc and this how major affects him mood and behaviour go together! maybe he see other children and craves to be one of them do things they do etc has meds been thought over of increasing more? and seeing a specialist in pyschology? behaviour patterns? child pyschologist ED pyschlogist social worker get GP to refer over!

 

 

 

 

 

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Flora   

I certainly don't believe that being 'deliberately' rude is an AS trait. Being blunt and speaking openly (as some people on the spectrum do) is not being 'deliberately' rude; they are two very very different things.

 

I have to say, my son has been through some hellish times at school over the years; he's been suicidal and had two major crises which could only be described as mental break down, but he's never been deliberately rude. He's 15 now and can be very difficult etc, but even difficult though he is, I still wouldn't say he was ever deliberately rude.

 

I think regardless of the cause, it's important to teach young children that there is NEVER a reason or excuse for being deliberately rude. Believe me when they get to 15 you'll wish you had drummed it into them because the problems that naturally occur as a result of all those hormones whizzing about will be a whole lot easier to deal with if you drive home the basics of right and wrong and what's acceptable or not, at a young age.

 

Flora

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JoanneH   

Hi

 

Probably coincidence or does there seem to be an escaltion of "bad" behaviour when they hit 7????

 

We are having a nightmare with B both at home and school at the moment with rude and aggressive behaviour - we do try our best have rigid & consistent boundaries at home but don't think they apply at school. We are having a particular nightmare at school and are in the process of looking for a new school for B as his current school have finally admitted that they cannot (or will not!) meet his needs. We are trying our best not to show how negative we are about his current school but I'm sure regardless of how hard we are trying some of this must be being picked up by him.

 

He is supposed to have full time one to one but yet again today his TA said an incident occured when she was out of the room - someone else was incharge of B and he got in trouble for climbing on the tables. She told B's mum he was not the only one doing it but he was the only one properly caught and therefore the only one in trouble - she wasn't sure of the details the deputy head had dealt with him (This usually involves him shouting at B and a sanction being put in place ). She then turned to B and said "you'll have to be quicker next time so you don't get caught" What kind of comment was that when we are trying get through to him what is acceptable behaviour - tell him its OK so long as he doesn't get caught!!!!! B has a real sense of justice - not necessarily for himself but certainly like to see that others punished for their wrongdoing so why was he the only one punished when they knew others were doing it too? It confuses me so god knows how confused he ends up.

 

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Sally44   

If he doesn't understand voice tone then I think a fresh look at his social understanding, and emotional understanding in himself and others might be useful. He might be getting totally mixed messages from the teacher because of how he processes her voice, expression or gestures. He also needs to learn that he cannot respond in this way and that it will have consequences. You don't want anyone to talk to him about exclusion as he might actually like the idea of that. But using something like social stores or cartoon characters to replicate what his happening between him and the teacher but using other characters. And lots of 'What would you think if someone called you a fat pig' etc. He may, as aready stated, think he only has to be nice to nice people. Again you need to get across the idea that behaving well makes ourselves look nice and good to other people, which is useful because if we appear rude then others might not want to help us or even be frightened of us. Could he write a daily diary so that he can see that he has good times in school as well as recording any instances that upset or make him angry. But these are just suggestions and I'm no professional. Have you googled SCERTS and looked at whether that might be something useful.

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Cat   

Well thank you to everyone who has responded, I didn't expect such a response!

 

I call the elder of my two autistic sons 'Catch Phrase' simply because he says what 'he' sees. Notice I put the what 'he' sees in inverted commas because his perception of what he sees and hears is often totally different to mine or anyone else in our house for that matter. While rudeness may not be a trait associated with AS inappropriateness is and before I posted here today (because I have been following this debate) I did a little research and the word inappropriate and AS do appear to go hand in hand, well that is if you believe what people like the National Autistic Society who say

 

'People with Asperger syndrome can find it harder to read the signals that most of us take for granted. This means they find it more difficult to communicate and interact with others which can lead to high levels of anxiety and confusion.' Difficulty with social interaction - ■behave in what may seem an inappropriate manner -They may say things that are not nice or confusing but do not know they have done it that way.

 

Taken from the National Institute Neurological Disorders website

 

socially and emotionally inappropriate behavior and the inability to interact successfully with peers

peculiarities in speech and language; socially and emotionally inappropriate behaviour and the inability to interact successfully with peers; problems with non-verbal communication;

 

Taken from the OASIS website

 

Children with AS lack understanding of human relationships and the rules of social convention; they are naive and conspicuously lacking in common sense.

 

Taken from a Simon Baron Cohen Presentation – Characteristics of Aspergers Syndrome

 

A characteristic may be that of being very egotistical and chauvinistic.

 

The bit that probably expresses it best for me is ‘a lack of understanding of human relationships’ I know for sure that my eldest lacks understanding and what I would consider to be rude he considers to be truthful because going back to where I started he simply says what he sees. If I for example ask him ‘does my bum look big in this?’ he will respond ‘your bum looks big in everything’ is he being rude or is he being inappropriate. He is simply being honest.

The question that I ask myself is ‘is my son being rude or inappropriate?’ and for me there is a difference. If he does not share the same meaning and understanding as I do then is he being deliberately rude or is his lack of understanding (and I do mean understanding and not just carrying something out because we have been told that this is the way that we must or must not do something) coming across in his interaction.

 

Your son may be having a problem piecing everything together and processing all of the information and interactions that goes into a school day, and then making it make sense to him. If he perceives things quite differently to the other children and is taking away a different meaning I could see how this could lead to real frustration on his part. You have said that he comes home and mimics and you tell him that it is now allowed – but he is seeing other children do what you are saying is not allowed. I had huge problems getting it through to my youngest that there are more sets of rules than one. That as a family we have rules but that other families won’t necessarily share those rules. This led to frustration and a lack of understanding on his part which really did create turmoil in his brain. Rules and boundaries are of course very important but if the child is failing to really understand them then it can create problems for them. Even Social Stories can fail to get a child to fully understand why they have to something, some only ever gain from a Social Story that they must do it, and some things we must do but striving for shared understanding and shared meanings is very important to me.

 

I am now running the risk of being told that I am excusing behaviour which is not excusable and really I am not. But I admit to being one of those people who does believe that you simply cannot discount the impact that the autism has on an individual and it is something that I personally believe. I was told by a speech therapist some years ago now that many children on the spectrum have huge issues doing things that they feel are not relevant to them. If they cannot see the point they cannot understand why they should be doing it. My eldest has always been like that and he will question why he has to do something that he can see no point to. My eldest also finds it hard to change his opinion of someone if they have upset him. That is because he hold onto a negative image of that person in his head which he finds difficult to alter. This I was told was part of the fixed and rigid thought patterns that some people with AS have issues with. My youngest does not have this problem but my eldest does. Again this is not an excuse it is an explanation and something that I had to understand myself before I was able to help him to understand. My eldest now understands that his manner can sometimes be received by some people as him being rude, and because I now understand that this has never been his intention I will accept it if he starts a conversation by saying ‘I am sorry if you think that I am being rude by saying this but....’ It actually makes me feel quite sad that he now feels the need to say this just because an NT person has their own perceptions as to how he should be speaking.

 

Cat

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baddad   

Hi all/cat -

 

Cat, everything in the above post may be accurate for some autistic people, but you are completely overlooking the fact that the behaviours of the boy in the OP are selective. Trying to generalise the specific problems of some autistic people to include them in the scenario detailed in the OP is 'bending to fit' - and as someone who so vehemently opposes 'one size fits all' in other scenarios (i.e. education) how do you qualify that?

And I really can't understand why it would make you sad that your son has learned to compensate for a lack of intuitive understanding by offering others an assurance that if he does cause offence it is not intentional(?). That's surely making a negative out of a very big positive? Using a 'wheelchair' analogy (as they seem to be very popular) it's like saying that you feel sad because your son has learned to use a wheelchair to improve/maximise his opportunities rather than relying on the support of others to achieve mobility in the directions that they have dictated most suitable for him...

 

I really do find this perception that every negative in an autistic person's life and/or behaviour must be because they are autistic baffling and (frankly) quite scary. It completely alienates/differentiates them from the rest of the population and is a denial of their fundamental humanity.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Sally44   

In the OP it does say that this boy did not like one of his TAs because she could not see how a boy had hurt him. Obviously in some way he did feel hurt and that might have been down to his ASD otherwise the TA would have seen and understood how this other boy had hurt him. A further post says he cannot understand voice tone. So there are some social interaction issues going on which on the surface do appear to be down to his diagnosis and 'in his eyes' people might be hurting him and doing things wrong and not being nice to him and he may feel he therefore does not need to be nice to them. Afterall he has tried 'our way' by trying to report someone for hurting him and it did not work because he wasn't believed. Surely his social understanding and emotional recognisition etc needs looking at. When that is done and everyone knows 'where he is at' and 'what he understands' and 'what he doesn't understand', then they can start from there and also start to use some reprimands for his rudeness. If many of his misunderstandings are down to sensory issues, he may need how he perceives things explaining to him. My son did have a time when a certain TA was hurting him. It turned out she used to put her hand on his shoulder whilst she was looking at him doing his work. To him she was hurting him. That is how he processed it. That was real and the truth for him. Once the TA understood that and stopped it things improved. Prior to that she just kept saying 'but i'm not doing anything to hurt him' - and from her perceptual understanding she wasn't. So although this child's behaviour is being selective I am questioning his judgement calls and what it is that is making him not like certain people because the reasons he is giving do appear to be down to his ASD. When those misunderstandings and misperceptions (on both sides) are addressed, then you can put together a programme of rewards for good behaviour and reprimands for bad behaviour.

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baddad   
In the OP it does say that this boy did not like one of his TAs because she could not see how a boy had hurt him. Obviously in some way he did feel hurt and that might have been down to his ASD otherwise the TA would have seen and understood how this other boy had hurt him. A further post says he cannot understand voice tone. So there are some social interaction issues going on which on the surface do appear to be down to his diagnosis and 'in his eyes' people might be hurting him and doing things wrong and not being nice to him and he may feel he therefore does not need to be nice to them. Afterall he has tried 'our way' by trying to report someone for hurting him and it did not work because he wasn't believed. Surely his social understanding and emotional recognisition etc needs looking at. When that is done and everyone knows 'where he is at' and 'what he understands' and 'what he doesn't understand', then they can start from there and also start to use some reprimands for his rudeness. If many of his misunderstandings are down to sensory issues, he may need how he perceives things explaining to him. My son did have a time when a certain TA was hurting him. It turned out she used to put her hand on his shoulder whilst she was looking at him doing his work. To him she was hurting him. That is how he processed it. That was real and the truth for him. Once the TA understood that and stopped it things improved. Prior to that she just kept saying 'but i'm not doing anything to hurt him' - and from her perceptual understanding she wasn't. So although this child's behaviour is being selective I am questioning his judgement calls and what it is that is making him not like certain people because the reasons he is giving do appear to be down to his ASD. When those misunderstandings and misperceptions (on both sides) are addressed, then you can put together a programme of rewards for good behaviour and reprimands for bad behaviour.

 

 

But all of that is entirely 'projection' and assumption:

 

[Pararphrased]:

 

He doesn't like one of his TA's because she couldn't see his POV - He's a child. Children don't 'see' from an adults POV and even when the logic is explained to them in a way that they can understand it won't make any difference to them because a child's logic 'but that's not fair' isn't the same logic and adult uses. It's not autism. It's childhood.

Another post says he can't understand voice tone - I didn't read that the same way at all, if you are refering to this:

He does mimick at home, which is not allowed. He says he heard another boy do it - who knows? He can dissolve very quickly into floods of tears at the tone of someones voice and to me it is my most calm but firm voice and yet to us he can snarl and say "how dare you speak to me like that!" We are working on that one too!
.

I think you also have to consider the 'consequence' of bursting into tears. Tears are a hugely powerful controlling strategy whether someone is autistic or not, as is mock outrage as a passive/aggressive line of defence. These are entirely natural behaviours in small children (and many, many adults) and you don't need to look to autism as an explanation for them. As for 'he heard another boy do it' that's actually a very strong indicator that he is being manipulative because he's externalising and projecting his own behaviour onto another child in order to justify it. That doesn't show lack of understanding it demonstrates awareness.

 

So although this child's behaviour is being selective I am questioning his judgement calls and what it is that is making him not like certain people because the reasons he is giving do appear to be down to his ASD - Why question his judgement calls? Other than for your own preconceptions and determination to project the reasons for this behaviour onto 'autism' what possible reason is there for not assuming that 'WYSIWYG?' (what you see is what you get). Why, if something looks like a fish, smells like a fish, swims like a fish and tastes like a fish make assumptions that it is a mermaid? And why do the reasons he give appear to be down to autism? They are exactly the kinds of reasons a non-autistic kid would give for not liking someone too...

 

With regard to your own child, I don't think you are persuing a very helpful line of reasoning to assume the world must adjust to his perception of events - that's going to leave him with a very limited range of social options. It's reasonable enough to ask the teacher not to touch him if he regularly and consistently displays a range of physical senstivities, and also reasonable for him to make choices about who he does and doesn't want to touch him and under what circumstances, but fostering the belief that the word 'hurt' can or should be applied to the act of someone resting a hand on his shoulder is asking for trouble. It wasn't the teacher's misunderstanding it was your son's, and if he extends that misconception to interactions with people who don't know how to interact on his terms it isn't going to work.

 

There is no 'universal personality' - everyone is different. There is no universal 'autistic' personality - every autistic person is different. If a Neurotypical person is (i.e.,) a drug addict or an alcoholic or aggressive or whatever there are/can be all sorts of factors contributing to that. Project exactly the same problem onto an autistic person and suddenly it becomes an autistic 'trait'. Why? Autism can complicate things - in the same way that a physical disability can complicate the act of, say, boarding a bus - but it isn't the 'explanation'.

 

One thing everyone on this thread seems to agree on is that autism can have an effect on a childs ability to see the 'greys' of a situation. I agree with that, but also think childhood/adolescence has a huge impact on an individuals ability to see 'greys'. The latter is also pretty much a universal given in any branch of psychology/sociology/law/medicine etc etc too.

So: taking all of that into account, why look to strategies and responses that add more greys? Just remove them, leaving simple black and whites. Yes you can/No you can't should be the starting point, and negotiation (or 'grey') becomes an option when that basic yes/no understanding is achieved.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

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The buzzer

 

When I read your post - sorry haven't time to read all the others at present - I immediately thought that your son wasn't looking at this from the point of view of being rude or not but that he was seeing it as right and wrong. If he perceives that something wrong has been said or done he feels he has to somehow comment - unfortunately, he is doing it in what is being taken as a rude manner because, to us, it is rude, but then at his age it is perhaps the only way he can see of doing it. Just a thought.

 

Barefoot

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Sally44   

Yes you could just keep it black and white by saying "it is not acceptable to be rude to your teacher". But if a child with an ASD does not understand what 'rude' is then that needs to be explained. And if they doesn't understand rude, then they probably don't understand other things like 'disruptive' 'loud and pedantic' 'disrespectful'. They might also have very different opinions and interpretation on right and wrong. He may feel that this teacher is useless and is telling her that to her face infront of the class. That apparently is quite a typical blunt response that you can get with someone with an ASD. And don't we want the child to learn about the situation and their response to it and behave appropriately. If he is mis-understanding voice tone, shouldn't he be told that. If he feels that when he is treated unfairly and no-one recognises when he has been hurt, don't school need to learn about that and doesn't the child need to see that the school has a different perspective because they have a different experience to him. When he understands those things the black and white "it is not acceptable to be rude to your teacher" can be reinforced with rewards and loss of privileges. But without the child gaining an understanding you are just asking for a robotic response with the threat of punishment if they don't comply. And without understanding how will he generalise his appropriate behaviour into different situations?

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Cat   
And I really can't understand why it would make you sad that your son has learned to compensate for a lack of intuitive understanding by offering others an assurance that if he does cause offence it is not intentional(?). That's surely making a negative out of a very big positive? Using a 'wheelchair' analogy (as they seem to be very popular) it's like saying that you feel sad because your son has learned to use a wheelchair to improve/maximise his opportunities rather than relying on the support of others to achieve mobility in the directions that they have dictated most suitable for him...

 

I am sad because it means that my son can never truly be himself society will not accept him as he is. I could quite understand this if he was potentially dangerous but I find not being allowed to be disabled quite scary. I do however internalise the negativity and am immensely proud of the fact that my son can do these things now. Anyone who uses a wheelchair and learns to improve or maximise their opportunities will understand why they have done that. I am not sure that my son does understand why he is doing these things only that he has to do them because it is expected of him. I think that that is the big difference.

 

I really do find this perception that every negative in an autistic person's life and/or behaviour must be because they are autistic baffling and (frankly) quite scary. It completely alienates/differentiates them from the rest of the population and is a denial of their fundamental humanity.

 

It is not solely an autistic issue it's a disability issue. It is a fact that if you have a disability that that disability will impact in some way on your life, otherwise why says that someone is disabled? And yet there is a great amount of pressure applied to disabled people to act as 'normally' as possible as if there is something very wrong with being disabled. Who decided what normal is and why must we all strive to achieve this? I will do my level best to help my sons to appear to be normal because that is what society dictates of them. As a society we lack compassion and understanding and are in denial that human beings come in many different shapes and sizes. Humanity does not fit neatly into a box and that is clearly seen here on these boards almost every day of the week. It is even harder if your disability is un-seen because you must then work hard to overcome it because hey you look no different to anyone else. I find that very scary.

 

Cat

Edited by Cat

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baddad   
Yes you could just keep it black and white by saying "it is not acceptable to be rude to your teacher". But if a child with an ASD does not understand what 'rude' is then that needs to be explained.

 

But why do you believe the boy in the OP doesn't understand? Other than 'because he has autism', I mean...

Of course it's necessary to enable a child to understand 'rude' if he doesn't understand it, but not to defend rudeness when he can quite clearly demonstrate that he does understand the concept by not being rude when it suits him! Or to bend the facts to suit to justify defending it.

And I did say black and white is the starting point, and that once that basic level of understanding is achieved then the greys (like 'what does rude mean') can be introduced. But if you haven't provide the starting point - the black and white - how can they possibly hope to grasp 'greys' or - heaven forbid - the whole range of colours that exist too?

Said it many times in the past and will say it again. A child does not need to understand the reasons behind 'no' he only has to respond to 'no' appropriately. (Life saver that one). That's the starting point for learning right from wrong that every child needs to go through. If the learning curve is extended for any reason - or even impossible for the child to grasp (as in some severe cases it may be) - it's still the same learning curve. A child who can offer a defence/justification for his behaviour must - by definition - have some understanding of the processes involved

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

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baddad   
I am sad because it means that my son can never truly be himself society will not accept him as he is. I could quite understand this if he was potentially dangerous but I find not being allowed to be disabled quite scary. I do however internalise the negativity and am immensely proud of the fact that my son can do these things now. Anyone who uses a wheelchair and learns to improve or maximise their opportunities will understand why they have done that. I am not sure that my son does understand why he is doing these things only that he has to do them because it is expected of him. I think that that is the big difference.

 

That's just how it is. Obviously i can't say what you son knows or doesn't understand, but i think the things you're uncertain about don't just apply to autism or to disability. It's more profound in the case of an autistic disability, but that's just how it is. I'm all for changing general attitudes towards disability, but the things that scare and sadden me are that for many parents/carers the change of attitudes they propose is as patronising and alienating as the system they are rallying against. The way to maximise a disabled persons opportunities is to support them when they need support and let them have self-determination over every aspect of their life that they can: to push them as much as possible towards independence in every aspect of their lives. Negative assumptions about what they can/can't do - made for whatever reason (the list is huge) can only limit potential

 

 

 

It is not solely an autistic issue it's a disability issue. It is a fact that if you have a disability that that disability will impact in some way on your life, otherwise why says that someone is disabled? And yet there is a great amount of pressure applied to disabled people to act as 'normally' as possible as if there is something very wrong with being disabled. Who decided what normal is and why must we all strive to achieve this? I will do my level best to help my sons to appear to be normal because that is what society dictates of them. As a society we lack compassion and understanding and are in denial that human beings come in many different shapes and sizes. Humanity does not fit neatly into a box and that is clearly seen here on these boards almost every day of the week. It is even harder if your disability is un-seen because you must then work hard to overcome it because hey you look no different to anyone else. I find that very scary.

 

Cat

I totally agree - it's a disability issue. I am totally against 'normalisation' but I don't see equipping someone to deal most effectively with the prejudices they are likely to face as 'normalisation' I see it as survival skills training! Fight tooth and claw to 'breakdown the barriers', but you have to assume that they are going to be there for sometime to come and equip your child to the best of their ability accordingly.

Again, I have said many times in the past that the thing I find scary about autism is the general 'can't do' thinking that surrounds it. In almost every other area of disability the general outlook is 'can do'.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

Edited by baddad

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