What is rude?

[sesley]

reading thorugh the closed thread, its interesting, because my p replies when you say thats rude to how he acts or speaks to someone and he asks What is Rude? a interesting thought ,since how do you explian rude, the best i could think of was, saying and doing things to others that they might be upset from what you said and did. also the other is "whats polite? being nice and friendly,try to remember to say please and thank you and say exsuse me rather than expect people to move away from you,he has the unsocaible habit of walking at people holding hands and going at the joined hands or literary walk at people and not think he needs to move out of the way.

[bid]

Very good point, Sesley!

 

I wonder if something visual would help...cartoonish faces showing clear emotions, like 'sad' then linking them with 'comments' like 'You're fat': if you say this, how do you think the other person will feel??

 

Bid

[KarenT]

We've got a very visual social story about Causing Offence, if anyone's interested. It's obviously very personal to J but it's helped him to understand the complexities of politeness and rudeness, and how it's different for everyone.

 

Karen

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[frogslegs]

Hi Karen,

How does one get hold of such stories? That would be a great help as this is a big issue at the moment for us.

Many thanks,

Mel

[Sally44]

There are lots of things that from another persons perspective would be considered rude/disrespectful etc. From the other side of the bridge it might just be considered brutal honesty. But I think the problem is two way. By that I mean that autistic people find it hard to read NT people, and obviously NT people find it hard to read autistic people. For example once a teacher has had it explained to them that their pupil is not necessarily being rude, but is being brutally honest about something that is causing offence or pain to another person - then that takes away the assumption by the teacher that the distress was 'intentional' was often it wasn't at all. That diffuses the situation and allows more open dialogue eg. the teacher might respond by saying "John what you just said has made David feel bad". Most of those on the spectrum would automatically apologise and feel bad if that is pointed out to them. And it allows the teacher to rectify or address the situation rather than just punish the child who has no real understanding of what they have done wrong.

[KarenT]

If you pm me with an email address I'll send it to you.

 

Karen

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[Guest featherways]

I found it very useful indeed to get books like the old Desmond Morris 'Manwatching' ones about human behaviour (warning - not suitable for young children as they may contain bits on sexual behaviour). There are equivalent ones available from places like the National Autistic Society book store (online). Or try Jessica Kingsley Publishers (online too).

Watch out for books where they have cartoon faces in them to express emotions though - very often we can't see the emotions at all on a cartoon face, so the first step is to teach us what to look for, and how to interpret it. Again, good books and DVDs available that can help with that.

People find it almost impossible to 'read' me, as I can't use body language or facial expressions etc in the way they expect, so I seem rude anyway. Very difficult.

[darky]

I do find this interesting. I can see both sides. My daughter is a good example for debate. We walk into a public toilet, and she will shout "it stinks in here" She is repulsed by the smell, but it could cause embarrassment or offence to someone creating the smell if you catch my drift, but is she being rude or stating a fact?? Many times, she has said things like, "your breath stinks" or "you walk funny" it always appears to me she is stating a fact, not being deliberately rude To call someone fat if they are, is factual observation, to call someone fat pig isn't, and goes from factual observation to insulting. I think that's how I see the difference?

 

I know sometimes people think I am rude, but I am mortified to have caused offence. My own problem is it does not always occur to me that someone wants me to say something or act on a dropped hint. It can seem to them I am uncaring or rude, but it is so hard trying to work out what people want from me unless they spell it out The worst for me is when people ask me what I think, I am 36 yrs old and still learning that people don't want me to actually tell them their hair looks bad even if they ask me? Getting there though

 

 

[pearl]

JP used to be very "blunt" when younger but I can honestly say it was never intentional. A classic which will always stick in my mind (& still occasionally wakes me up in a cold sweat) is when he was around 5 & would greet acquaintances saying, "Hello JP", with, "Shut up you idiot" Now, on the page, that sounds absolutely awful, but it was delivered with a sweet smile & I knew that he had absorbed the phrase from a film he'd seen (try explaining that to aggrieved acquaintance, though). He still sometimes quotes film dialogue, but integrates it so naturally into the conversation that only we who are "tuned in" to it would know.

 

These days, he's incredibly polite & often gets compliments on his manners (he has none of the NT teenage "attitude" of his peers) He sometimes puts his foot in it unintentionally & is mortified when that happens, but we try to use it as a learning experience & talk him through it so it doesn't happen again.

 

When he's in meltdown its a different matter, he's pretty much out of control over what comes out of his mouth, but is always apologetic afterwards.

 

I'm not saying autistic kids can *never* be intentionally rude, though - depends on the personality, ultimately.

[Sally44]

Yes, my son also uses alot of TV and film dialogue and weaves it into his 'language'. Sometimes it sounds okay, sometimes quirky, sometimes bizzare and sometimes outrageous. But he has no idea of what the 'individual' words mean. He just has a general understanding of what the phrase meant or how the phrase was used and in response to what type of situation. He also has an American accent 24/7. Someone hit the nail on the head when they said that my son talked like English was his second language. And that reminded me of a comedy I had seen where a young Italian woman had learnt English by reading those Mills & Boon type of books and all her conversation was dotted with sexual undertones that sounded so bizzare in the everyday situations she was using them.

When things are explained to him he knows how to act appropriately. Or if he has said something and you explain to him what he has said he is visibly upset that he has said the wrong thing.

He also has alot of sensory issues and smells are one of them. He had to see a doctor one time, and during the appointment it was obvious that they must have had curry the night before, and all my son kept asking them was "what is that stinky smell" - I could have died. Yet if I said to my son "how would someone feel if you said they were stinky", he would understand and say "they would feel sad". But he doesn't seem to be able to apply that knowledge beforehand. It is only afterwards when it is explained to him that he understands.

During a meltdown that is something different. He will say things or do things at the time and the best course of action is to send him to his room to calm down. Afterwards he is mortified at what he has said or done, and that usually leads him to be upset and tearful and angry with himself for the rest of the evening.

[Sooze2]

He also has alot of sensory issues and smells are one of them. He had to see a doctor one time, and during the appointment it was obvious that they must have had curry the night before, and all my son kept asking them was "what is that stinky smell" - I could have died. Yet if I said to my son "how would someone feel if you said they were stinky", he would understand and say "they would feel sad". But he doesn't seem to be able to apply that knowledge beforehand. It is only afterwards when it is explained to him that he understands.

During a meltdown that is something different. He will say things or do things at the time and the best course of action is to send him to his room to calm down. Afterwards he is mortified at what he has said or done, and that usually leads him to be upset and tearful and angry with himself for the rest of the evening.

 

Sounds like my by to a T. After a meltdown he is horrified when he realises some of the things he's said. As for watching the TV he constantly questions everything that is said and done and looks at us constantly to see how we react to what is happening because he doesn't really understand any of it! Bless him

 

[Sally44]

I also wanted to bring up the supposed difference between an ASD child saying someone is 'fat' - being factual but without understanding social rules - and saying someone is a 'fat pig' - just being personal and rude.

I think that depends on the language capability of the child. My son has autism and therefore has alot of language difficulties including not understanding alot of what individual words mean and also echolalia. He would be just as capable of saying someone was a 'fat pig' - ie. copied from a film or TV programme - and not understand it was a personal insult. He would think that is something you can say. So, as in all things, I think we have to consider our own child's abilities. And although I do reprimand him and tell him he cannot say words like that. It is very hard to explain 'why' when there is not a good understanding of language and its meaning. For example he used to use the phrase from Tracy Beaker "You can shut your big fat gob", to anyone if he wanted some quiet and he needed those in his environment to stop talking to him or to eachother. As his mother I knew where he had lifted it from and what he was trying to achieve by using it. To outsiders it sounds horrendous.

[sesley]

we get now in a loud voice mum there goes a stranger old lady. or mum that mans face is brown, to that i say yes dear it is and the man giving us a dirty look:huh: he are saying shush turn your volume down. he reads name badges on shop workers and says hello Fred and waves his hand in front to the face, personnel space we go and try to be quiet.

[MelowMeldrew]

we get now in a loud voice mum there goes a stranger old lady. or mum that mans face is brown, to that i say yes dear it is and the man giving us a dirty look:huh: he are saying shush turn your volume down. he reads name badges on shop workers and says hello Fred and waves his hand in front to the face, personnel space we go and try to be quiet.

 

Like my lad lol he walks up to people and says "Why are you so fat ? do you eat too much ?" or "Why do you smell ?" I need to move pretty quick really !

[sesley]

oh the joys