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should the educational psychologist see her?

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hi wonder if anyone can help i am due to see paediatrician at end of next month for my 13 year old undiagnosed dd,to look at a ADI-R,not sure what it is but something to do with getting a diagnosis,the paed has written saying she will get report from clinical phycologist and educational phycologist,the problem is the ed phy hasnt seen dd since summer 2008,when i spoke to her on phone and mentioned it she inferred she didnt neeed to see dd as she can get enough info from me and others,ie school teachers that dd doesnt see!!! :wallbash:

i have a meeting with ed phy next wednesday to go over things and to see if she can come up with any strategies to get her to school,wont work because she is school refusing and i am not adding to pressure.

but the question i am asking is is this right that she doesnt need to see her after all how can she do a report,her reasoning was she doesnt want to put pressure on dd,but still cant see how she can do report if she hasnt seen her for over a year?things have changed so much in the last year she cant possilbly get all the info from others.has anyone been in this situation before and does anyone know what ADI-R is? many thanks julia

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Do you know anything about the Special Educational Needs (SEN) process?

There are probably reasons why your daughter is not able to get into school ie. things that she cannot cope with that increase her anxiety so that she is unable to get through the door.

If a child has complex needs then the parents or school can ask the LEA for a Statutory Assessment towards a Statement. A Statement is the only legal way of securing support in terms of hours of support, staffing arrangements (ie. TA support), and input or therapies from professionals (eg. Speech Therapist, Occupational Therapist, Educational Psychologist etc).

A Statement is also needed to get a school place in a special school. And that includes ASD specific schools either within the LEA or private/independent ASD schools.

The SEN process is a graduated approach starting with School Action, then School Action Plus which is the stage where school ask for outside professionals such as SALT and ED Psych to come and assess the child. At SAP stage the school has IEPs with relevant targets for your childs needs. Most LEAs also have an Autism Outreach Teacher that can go into mainstream schools to give advice.

It sounds like you are right at the beginning of the process. And it may be that your daughter managed in the primary years, however the demands of secondary school have become too much and she is unable to cope.

Sensory issues may also be playing a role - google sensory integration disorder. And language difficulties or social communication/social skills are bound to causing her problems.

I would recommend you get in touch with your local National Autistic Society support group and find out when the next SEN day seminar is taking place and go along and find out about the process.

Now she is refusing school. Your options are pursue the SEN process and aim for a Statement that details all the support she needs and which names a suitable school - which may or may not be mainstream, but may need to be a school with experience and expertise in ASDs or ASD specific. Or you attempt to get her back into mainstream school with support (which can be supplied with or without a Statement), but without a statement there is no legal obligation on the LEA or school to ensure that support is provided. Home education is another option.

Should the Ed Psych see her. If at all possible yes. Would your daughter be willing to see her at your home and then make another appointment for them to meet at the school?

Can you get any information from your daughter herself about what she is finding so difficult. It might be that the school is too large and confusing. She may not be able to remember her classrooms, teachers names or even her classmates. It may not make any sense at all to her, whereas if there was alot of structure and she was supported where needed she might be able to navigate her way through the day much better.

Does her current school have any experience of pupils with an ASD. Do you feel they are willing and able to attempt to meet her needs. Do they show any understanding of her difficulties?

Another thought regarding the Ed Psych. This is about a 'diagnosis', and not about 'what her difficulties are in school'. Children can receive a diagnosis from information given from parents - as in the case of younger children. She has seen your daughter before, although a year ago. So eventhough she might not actually see your daughter - which would be helpful if she could, the Ed Psych will be able to talk to you for information.

After the diagnosis, you then move to the next stage of 'what are the difficulties and how can those be met or supported in school. This is the SEN process.

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You can also get information and advice from the National Autistic Society ie. www.nas.org.uk, or from IPSEA ie. www.ipsea.org.uk. Both of these have educational advisors.

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Hi.

I had not come across the ADI-R but have found some information that might be helpful.

http://www.agre.org/program/aboutadi.cfm

It looks as though it is a tool for a professional that is specifically trained in it to use to conduct an assessment for ASD diagnosis.

I think the paeditrician probably needs the EP report as background information to form part of the assessment.Please do not worry too much.If the paediatrician writes to the EP and the EP does not have a recent report the paediatrician is likely to either accept what is provided or ask for further assessments.

It appears that the ADI-R is conducted by one professional so the paeditrician may be happy and able to do it without detailed information from the EP.

 

I understand from your post that although the EP wishes to meet with you you do not feel it will be helpful because you do not want to put your daughter under pressure at the momment.

If that is the correct understanding there is another option that might enable you to take the pressure off your daughter whilst not having to feel under pressure from the EP.

It is possible to have your daughter signed off as unable to attend school due to illness due to mental health needs such as anxiety.

I will find the information in a minute.

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=21117

The information is on this link which might be helpful.Se especially the link on access to education for children with medical needs.

 

It is worth ensuring that a GP or CAMHS document that your daughter is not mentally well enough to be in school for two reasons.

Firstly the EP will not then be able to pressure school attendance or to chase you regarding failure to secure school attendance.

Secondly once a child is absent from school for a certain number of days due to medical needs the LA is obliged to arrange alternative provision which could be with a specialist unit or via home tutoring.

Are CAMHS or the paediatrician supporting you with the difficulties with school ?

Alternative proviosion re medical needs is not really a long term solution and you might want to explore whether some SEN input might be helpful in the future.

However it might take the pressure off yourself and your daughter whilst the paediatrician supports you in finding out what the difficulties are.

My elder son was out of school for most of his last half-term in primary school due to anxiety.I remember it was very stressful for all of us.He had some input from a CAMHS psychologist and support during transition to secondary school.He is thriving now in all respects two years on.

Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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hi thanks to both of you for replies,although starts getting rather complicated especialy as havent really got much of a clue as to how it all works.

in reply to Sally44 no i dont really know much about SEN all i know is ii have had various meetings at school with the relavent people but no-one mentions SEN or LEA or SALT.it feels as though they are trying to keep it between themselves,i have been told they will try and get help from ISO and CSW and also OOTS but they have been saying this for ages and nothing ever gets done,not that i know who all these people are :tearful:

my dd has not been at school since august2008,we did have a time where she was going for 3 x 45 minute sessions a week but these have since gone,the school put it down to 2 sessions this summer and dd only managed 1 session and has not been at school at all since then,but no one has mentioned anything more about other schooling methods ,the local home ed teacher did come round once before summer hols but due to my dd seeing everything so black and white ,she had heard something about him so had already made her mind up that she wouldnt see him :tearful: if this all makes sense.and i ahve been told there are no other home ed teachers in the area!!!

so dd has never been to academy school properly at all ,she was fine at primary school ,well few problems but nothing that anyone took any notice of,ie she wouldnt collect housepoints becasue she knew this meant she would have to go up in assembly,wouldnt eat at lunch time ,or use toilets,all things that no-one really paid much attention to,then it all kicked off when a child from academy came to the school and said at academy they were all bullies,druggies and smoked,of course they arent but from that day forward she said she wouldnt go and that was that ,this was in nov2007.it was only when clinical phycologist started seeing her in feb 2009 that she spotted the very literal thinking and pointed to aspergers ,the school have been told this and am now waiting for the ADI-R at the end of november,thanks karena for your info on this was interesting to read and now at least know what i will be facing :rolleyes:

but no-one has mentioned dd being signed off just seem to be carrying on as things are,ie no schooling no home education and took them til the last day of term to give me any homework for her. :wallbash:things made all the more difficult because she seems perfectly happy at home its only when school,work or going out arises that there is a problem :wallbash:

sometimes just feel like giving up and just saying stay at home be happy and forget school,sorry feeling bit fed up of it all at moment :tearful: just dont know what to do for best and everything just takes sooo long!

many thanks again julia >:D<<'>

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my dd has not been at school since august2008,we did have a time where she was going for 3 x 45 minute sessions a week but these have since gone,the school put it down to 2 sessions this summer and dd only managed 1 session and has not been at school at all since then,but no one has mentioned anything more about other schooling methods ,the local home ed teacher did come round once before summer hols but due to my dd seeing everything so black and white ,she had heard something about him so had already made her mind up that she wouldnt see him :tearful: if this all makes sense.and i ahve been told there are no other home ed teachers in the area!!!

 

Hi.The LA have a legal responsibility to make alternative arrangements for pupils who are unable to access education due to medical needs.That may not be full time but I would expect it to be more than 3x45 mins for a thirteen year old.They cannot just say that there are no home ed teachers available that would be like a LA saying they don't have enough school places so some children cannot attend school.

There should be a named officer within the LA with responsibility for children not able to access education due to medical needs.I think it would be worth contacting them.They will have responsibility for making arrangements if your daughter has been out of school this long.School may not be aware or may not want to inform you that the LA have a responsibility for organising appropriate arrangements.

I do not know abbreviations for ISO,CSW and OOTS do you know what they stand for please ?

 

SEN can include any Special Educational Needs which prevent a child accessing education that is of the type or content available to their peers.That can include mental health needs.My elder son was placed on the SEN register at School Action Plus for a while when he started secondary school because he found it difficult getting into school because he was anxious.He is very bright and is doing fine now.So SEN is not just about accademic ability.If a child is so anxious that they cannot get to school then they obviously cannot access the curriculum.Unfortunately some schools are more supportive than others.All the primary school did re J was to threaten me with the EWO and remind me of my parental responsibility....oh and ensure that J was able to sit his SATS because he obtained a level 5. :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

I know things are slow it is understandable that you feel fed up.I found the time at home with J very difficult and felt helpless. >:D<<'>

 

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1763&a=3229

This link provides more information regarding SEN and might be useful.

http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/advice-about-educ...-extra-help.htm

and this one too.

Edited by Karen A

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As you say the SEN process is a maze, and as a parent no-one sits down with you and explains what the system is or what anyones responsibilities or obligations are. All of us on this forum have probably learnt it as we went along. It took me a few years to get to where I am now. So I would just encourage you to start (as you are doing by coming on this forum) and eventually things will start to make sense and connect in your brain. So try to get on an NAS SEN and Statementing seminar. This forum also has the SEN Code of Practice at the top of the 'Education' forum which you can download.

It is important to learn about this because as you have already found out, the LEA do have a 'legal' responsibility to educate your child. That isn't happening presently. Karen has given you some good info, which you can act on.

I would also recommend that from now on you always write to those involved, or if you have a telephone conversation you back it up with a letter ie. 'further to our telephone conversation today you told me x, y and z, and you agreed to contact x, y and z.' If you do have to go to an appeal or tribunal over aspects of educational provision or school placement then you will need all those letters. Anything verbal is useless.

 

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. This forum also has the SEN Code of Practice at the top of the 'Education' forum which you can download.

 

Not for me it won't download.I think I broke the COP. :whistle::whistle::whistle::whistle::oops::lol:

 

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hi thanks again for further info which is interesting reading,with regards to OOTS,CSW and ISO ,the first i havent got a clue ISO i have now been told is intergrated services officer and CSW is some sort of family support,but still doesnt really mean anything to mean ,i was told well before summer hols that they would get CSW involved to help through summer hols but never heard anything from anyone, :wallbash: whats new!

with regards to LEA does that mean that as school are not really doing much that i should bring it to their attention,find it difficult because if school say they will put in place for dd to see someone on a 1-1 basis and she then refuses to go can the school just say they tried and its not working OR is it up to someone to find another way of educating her,ie at least sending work home for her to do,and if so who would be responsible for this?

also not sure whether SEN code of practise is same all over we are in scotland so would things be the same?i did speak to someone at an information centre and she said up here we dont do statementing,think its IEP instead but not really sure.

also just feel that dont want to step on anyones toes but ie ed phy as dont want to alienate her,saying that things are progressing so slow i feel that dd will be 16 and be able to leave school before they get anything sorted,as this has been 2 years since i brought it to the schools attention( when dd was at primary school)

will see how meeting goes next week,but cant see anychanges to where we are at moment.

thanks for all links will keep reading!! >:D<<'> >:D<<'> and will hopefully get easier.

julia

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I think all parents go through that stage where they don't want to upset anyone who is involved, or who is showing some interest in their child's difficulties. However the SEN process is there to ensure that those involved (school, LEA, professionals etc) do follow the procedures as stated. So don't feel you are stepping on peoples toes. You do need to find out what your child is entitled to. You have to consider that any extra input from professionals, or supports, whether that is in school or at home is going to cost the LEA extra money. So there is no real incentive for them to do it. And they can string it out for years until, as you say, the child has left the education system completely. But there is a process, which has legal timescales written into it etc. And many times it takes a parent to demonstrate that they know what the school or LEA should be doing before they actually do it.

For example, the Ed Psych at my son's previous school did a brief assessment, and then did not assess further because the school said they did not have any concerns about him. She wrote a very brief letter giving some advice to school about some of his difficulties, but she did not specify how those difficulties should be supported in school. When I wrote to her I asked her why she had not specified exactly how the school should meet those needs. The EP replied that that was because she wanted to allow the school to have some flexibility in what they provided and how they achieved that. That is in total contradiction of the SEN Code of Practice which states that it should specify in terms of hours and staffing provision how a child is to be supported and that every need should be identified. The COP also states that any flexibility built into the Statement should be for the benefit of the child and not the system. I put that in a letter to her, and that correspondence, along with others, I took to an Educational Tribunal where we secured the support we were asking for and the school placement we wanted. So please do not take anything you are told as being gospel truth. Always check it with organisations like the NAS or IPSEA or on forums like this.

I'm sure others with more knowledge about school refusal etc will post advice.

At the top of some of the forum pages ie. education, there are documents about the SEN process. There is specific information about Scotland. The NAS also has branches in Scotland.

The SEN process is a graduated approach. By that I mean ideally a child with difficulties is supported at a certain level. If that is not enough the support is increased etc etc. At some stage that might mean moving to a different school if the current school cannot meet the needs of that child. At some point along this process the child ideally should receive a diagnosis and all relevant professionals will be involved to assess the child and write up reports. In your case, as in many, it has not happened 'ideally'. By that I mean her difficulties were not identified and a diagnosis were not given in the primary years. In your case this has meant that your daughter has found it harder to cope as she has progressed through the school system. She is now at a point where she is refusing school because she no longer feels she can cope with it.

But I think at this stage you do need to get some advice and send a few well worded letters to those who should be doing their job in supporting your daughter and who are already well aware of what educational provision she is entitled to, but are failing to provide it. A diagnosis will also help with that. Also as already said, it would be very useful for her school refusal to be medically documented as being due to severe anxiety. Your GP can do that, or they may refer you to a developmental paediatrician or clinical psychologist. Without that you, as her parent, could also get into trouble for not sending her to school.

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hi thanks again for further info which is interesting reading,with regards to OOTS,CSW and ISO ,the first i havent got a clue ISO i have now been told is intergrated services officer and CSW is some sort of family support,but still doesnt really mean anything to mean ,i was told well before summer hols that they would get CSW involved to help through summer hols but never heard anything from anyone, :wallbash: whats new!

with regards to LEA does that mean that as school are not really doing much that i should bring it to their attention,find it difficult because if school say they will put in place for dd to see someone on a 1-1 basis and she then refuses to go can the school just say they tried and its not working OR is it up to someone to find another way of educating her,ie at least sending work home for her to do,and if so who would be responsible for this?

also not sure whether SEN code of practise is same all over we are in scotland so would things be the same?i did speak to someone at an information centre and she said up here we dont do statementing,think its IEP instead but not really sure.

also just feel that dont want to step on anyones toes but ie ed phy as dont want to alienate her,saying that things are progressing so slow i feel that dd will be 16 and be able to leave school before they get anything sorted,as this has been 2 years since i brought it to the schools attention( when dd was at primary school)

will see how meeting goes next week,but cant see anychanges to where we are at moment.

thanks for all links will keep reading!! >:D<<'> >:D<<'> and will hopefully get easier.

julia

 

Hi.I think that as your daughter has been out of school for this long [about 14 months] you may have most sucess in working with the LA diresctly.

 

Do contact the officer responsible for children out of school due to medical needs.The LA have the responsibility to arrange alternative provision rather than the school.The school may well stall for ever.I know of others on the Forum who have had similar experiences.

 

Also although Sally is right about the graduated approach being usual as regards SEN there are exceptions.If your daughter has not been at school for this length of time and as I understand it has never really been to secondary school for any length of time this may be an exception.The graduated approach is based on a child being at school.If she is not at school and you are unlikely to get her there there will not be any information or hope of putting provision in place.In England there is scope within the COP for an imediate assessment of SEN where it is required.I would think your situation would be included in this.

 

In England a parent can also request a Statutary Assessment themself.In your case the school I would think the school would not be able to request a Statutary Assessment as they have no evidence and no child in school to assess.It would appear to me more logical to contact the LA yourself re the SEN if you wish to do so.

However it is also worth bearing in mind that the Statutary Assessment is more likely to be agreed to by the LA if you have an AS dx so it might be worth waiting a short while until the ADI-R is completed.Also if your daughter is stressed already assessments for a Statutary Assessment and the ADI-R might be a lot to manage.

It is possible to have a Statutary Assessment completed for a child not in school.I think that Kathryn [one of the moderators here] was in a similar situation with a daughter of about the same age.The EP was able to visit at home I think.Kathryn is on holiday this week but may well have some useful ideas when she is back. :notworthy::notworthy::) ].

 

Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1764

This is a link to the NAS education section for Scotland which might be useful as it is specific to Scotland.

The NAS advocacy for Education helpline would also be able to provide specific information

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=20379

There is loads of useful information here too including helplines specific to Scotland

 

http://www.scotland.autism.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=942

This number may be very useful.

I cannot figure out whether Scotland even have Statements of SEN or Statutary Assessments. :unsure:

So it may be local advice you need rather than lots of information from the depths of Southern England that is not relevant. :lol:

 

 

hi thanks again for further info which is interesting reading,with regards to OOTS,CSW and ISO ,the first i havent got a clue ISO i have now been told is intergrated services officer and CSW is some sort of family support,but still doesnt really mean anything to mean ,i was told well before summer hols that they would get CSW involved to help through summer hols but never heard anything from anyone, whats new!

 

I don't know who these are either. :unsure:

 

http://www.youngminds.org.uk/

Young minds are also very helpful.They are a charity for young people with Mental Health Needs.They will have lots of experience of teenagers who cannot access education due to anxiety.They have an excellent helpline for parents and can arrange for a professional with specific experience to call you back if needed.I used them when my elder son was very anxious.

Edited by Karen A

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