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Sally44

What academic level is needed to go mainstream

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I've just been talking to our local secondary school today about my daughter - who begans there next September.

I also spoke with the SENCO about my son because I wanted to get an idea of what kind of pupils they have and what they can provide.

At the moment my son is in year 4 and is on level 1C. Many difficulties are down to dyslexia. By the time of the Annual Review in year 5 we are supposed to be able to say what kind of secondary school is more suitable.

With that in mind that means we have about 1.5 years before we make a decision. And that means he isn't going to get that much further from 1C. He's probably, hopefully, going to be on level 2A/B or C.

So can a child at that level access secondary school work? The SENCO said that if the child is hugely behind it is impossible to differentiate it past a certain stage because it then becomes a totally different piece of work.

What are other parents experiences.

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My son started high school at a level 2b in most areas, the high school was a good school and they tried there best with him. He stayed there until year 10 and there really was little they could do with him as he just did not suit the school. When he left he was a level3 in most areas so there was some progress. My son is now in a mainstream special school and we have just been sent his new grades for his annual review level 4 maths, level 3/4 english and level 6/7 science wow im really pleased such progress in 6 weeks. He said that he feels like he fits in and its easier to learn there. At a level 1c i feel your son will find it extreemly difficult to acess the curiculum, have you been in contact with your local dyslxia group to find out what other parents have been offered in your area. My friends son is severly dyslxic and has a talking computer programme, and a specialist teacher comes into his school 2 hours per week to teach him literacy skills. This child is in a mainstream high school and is enjoying school there is always hope.

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Hi Sally.

I think a lot may depend on the specific secondary school.

However a significant difference in academic ability may not be a barrier to inclusion in mainstream secondary if the school has appropriate provision in place.

I think that within my LA most pupils with learning difficulties who do not have ASD go to mainstream secondary schools.Certainly one of the secondary schools has excellent provision in place for some pupils with down's syndrome.

In my LA all children with dyslexia [well nearly all....there was one well known minister who payed for private provision :whistle::whistle: ] are placed within mainstream regardless of how far behind they are.

 

From personal experience I think that the schools ability to support pupils with ASD might be more of an issue than accademic ability.

Ben is having a better week this week.However from our experience and that of a friend who also has a son who has AS and is accademically able if the school are not able to provide appropriate support re ASD it is very difficult for a child to cope.

Karen.

 

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I personally would look for a secondary school that specialises in Dyslexia, AS because they will be able to meet their needs with much more spersific support, my son has a spiky profile so finds some subject easy, whilst others he is lost, its not just about the curriculum been differentiated, but the enviroement too, big classrooms, different teachers, different children, different subject will be very difficult to deal with, J requires small groups and one to one, he would of only recieved this in mainstream in Litracey and Maths, but what about other lessons where he was required to read, follow the whiteboard, write down his thoughts, J couldnt access any litracey based lessons, which are required in Geography, science, history, french, ect.... so think about the whole day where he will be required to use his litracey skills.

 

When I go to the local ASD parent group, the main issues are Education, and how they are struggling especially with Litracey and Social inclusion.

 

JsMumxxx

 

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I will ask our LEA, but I am almost certain there is no school that specialises in dyslexia. And there is definately no school that specialises in ASD and dyslexia.

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I will ask our LEA, but I am almost certain there is no school that specialises in dyslexia. And there is definately no school that specialises in ASD and dyslexia.

 

 

Dyslexia action have a list of specialist education, including independant and private schools.

 

There is no schools here that specialises in Dyslexia here either, hence we went for a specialist school out of county.

 

You dont have to keep within your own duristictions.

 

If its the right school and matches your childs needs and they are willing to offer a place and the child is willing to go then it can be anywhere in the uk.

 

There may be a private day specialist school near you, Ill pm you a website school search.

 

 

JsMum

 

 

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Sorry, just deleted my post because I need to check something with DH...so I'll post again later!

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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Sorry, just deleted my post because I need to check something with DH...so I'll post again later!

 

Bid :)

 

Hi my daughter is also working at level 1c and is in yr3 although a year behind your son they do seperate the ones that are struggling and put them into smaller groups to teach she is on ratio 1-5 they take some of the blue group out into a seperate room to teach, she is progressing. She hasn't been diagnosed although i do think she is on the spectrum somewhere and as dyslexia but aren't overy concerned at getting diagnosis as long as they make sure all her problems are dealt with, she is on the sen register and as an iep with 5 targets although i need to find out what targets they are? I also spoke to the senco yesterday for the first time only spoke to ass senco and he was lovely, i explained my concerns about dyslexia he said he does have someone that can look at the irlens and test her that way but not any other, so he is doing that and that she also complains a lot about her hands hurting when writing, so they are looking at her pencil grip and help her that way as well. So am feeling a little better than what i did last year as they fobbed my concerns off, he also said for me to stay in regular contact with him and school. The ass senco said that they can't test for dyslexia even if ed psych came in they can't test for dyslexia but i do know that the ed pscyh will see if there is any other difficulties but am just seeing how she goes again, it is hard waiting when you know something isn't right and you know that something else is going on but everyone looks at you like neurotic, they take on board that she has just been diagnosed with reflux and has bad nights ie sleep walking, talking, disrupted, so i might go to gp's and go along that route as sleep can be a big issue in problems behaviour and education wise. Sharon x ps it is a really nice school.

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I dont know if this will help...my son is borderline SEN n in a main stream school with extra support for maths n I had to get info for an independent school I want him to go to, he is in yr6 n is 4b for English and Science n 4c but only just 4c in maths....not that it means owt to me as ive no idea what any of it means lol. :unsure:

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I dont know if this will help...my son is borderline SEN n in a main stream school with extra support for maths n I had to get info for an independent school I want him to go to, he is in yr6 n is 4b for English and Science n 4c but only just 4c in maths....not that it means owt to me as ive no idea what any of it means lol. :unsure:

 

Hi.If your son is in year 6 then a level 4 is about the level nationally that he would be expected to be at.A high level 4 or level 5 is regarded as about the level pupils would be at when starting secondary school.

Karen.

 

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I feel that his specific learning difficulty ie. dyslexia and dyscalculia are not being looked at in school. It says he has traits of these in his statement and that school should seek advice from the advisory teacher when necessary. Well, I know that is woolly, so I have asked the SENCO to get advice and will see what she replies.

 

I've also found out that they are not using a software programme that I thought they were using. So now i've asked them to detail exactly what ICT/software they are using to support him in literacy and numeracy and also what hand writing programme they are using.

 

They've been using Precision Teaching - but isn't that supposed to 'show' something. Don't we get any results from it?

 

I also phoned the LEA to find out the date of the AR. As we went to Tribunal at the end of January, I thought the review would be around January time. Apparently it is supposed to be within 12 months of when the LEA finalised the Statement which was in July 2008. So we are already months behind.

 

I talked with the PP about how to include any specific specialist teaching into his Statement, and they should I need to bring that up at Annual Review. However I can only appeal if the LEA does agree to put something in the Statement, but not everything that I think needs to be put in. If the LA simply refuses to add anything to the Statement, then the only choice I have is to ask for a re-assessment and start from the beginning again.

 

Would that mean I needed all new private reports? Or are they relevant for a couple of years. The thought of going through re-assessment does worry me incase I came away with a Statement that showed less support than he currently receives.

 

I feel really miffed that the one area I didn't cover adequately is the one that is now causing problems. But back then you could not assess my son. And even now I don't know if he would co-operate. So if the LEA does not give a diagnosis of dyslexia anymore, and you don't get specialist teacher advice, how are you supposed to prove that you need it?

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And when a child is performing badly at school due to specific learning difficulties, how do I plan for the future? His EP private report says "high average intelligence". But for a child in year 4 to still be on the 'P' scales for literacy surely means he is not going to be able to attend a mainstream school.

 

I feel sure his current school will argue that he has made 'sufficient progress' since he joined them.

 

At his former school (year 2) he was on level P7 for reading and 1C for numeracy. When he moved school he was re-assessed and they found his assessment levels were much lower than that. Now he is in year 4 and is getting the same levels as those recorded in year 2. So has he progressed or not??? He has made progress from how they originally assessed him at the beginning of year 3, but hasn't made progress if you compare it with the assessments from his former school. I'm confused.

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I personally would look for a secondary school that specialises in Dyslexia, AS because they will be able to meet their needs with much more specific support, my son has a spiky profile so finds some subject easy, whilst others he is lost, its not just about the curriculum been differentiated, but the environment too, big classrooms, different teachers, different children, different subject will be very difficult to deal with, J requires small groups and one to one, he would of only received this in mainstream in Literacy and Maths, but what about other lessons where he was required to read, follow the whiteboard, write down his thoughts, J couldn't access any literacy based lessons, which are required in Geography, science, history, French, ect.... so think about the whole day where he will be required to use his literacy skills.

 

When I go to the local ASD parent group, the main issues are Education, and how they are struggling especially with Literacy and Social inclusion.

 

JsMumxxx

 

Im with Js mum on this issue. Also ask the other parents of dyslexic/AS kids to ask where they would send they're kids. Are there any schools that have an ASD/dyslexia/special needs unit attached? That could be a possibility. i was the opposite at school, no diagnosis of dyslexia (couldn't describe my problems with reading the blackboard to teacher) or AS i struggled socially in mainstream secondary schools. Even moving schools in yr 8 didnt help but it did get my diagnosis!

 

Alexis

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Sorry, just deleted my post because I need to check something with DH...so I'll post again later!

 

Bid :)

 

Double checked with DH, who teaches in a school for complex learning difficulties. In theory, if any of their pupils achieve roughly level 5 in key stage 3 they would be considered 'able' enough to go back into mainstream.

 

Don't know if this helps at all.

 

Bid :)

 

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Hi.If your son is in year 6 then a level 4 is about the level nationally that he would be expected to be at.A high level 4 or level 5 is regarded as about the level pupils would be at when starting secondary school.

Karen.

 

Thanks so much..noone explains anything round here!!!!!

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At Governor Training on SEN recently, they were very clear that all children should be making 2 sub levels of progress each year. A child with SEN may be starting from a lower level, but they said there is no excuse for that child not to make the two sub levels of progress.

 

Is his progress/attainment in maths and science better than in English? If so, the school should take that as a sign that he has particular difficulties in literacy.

 

My son has dyslexia - we always thought he probably had it (though his reading was fine, which threw some people), but even though he had excellent, specialist schooling, he was not diagnosed til he was 13, and then only because one of his teachers happenend to be qualified to do the testing herself.

 

It may be worth considering getting him assessed for dyslexia yourself.

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Double checked with DH, who teaches in a school for complex learning difficulties. In theory, if any of their pupils achieve roughly level 5 in key stage 3 they would be considered 'able' enough to go back into mainstream.

 

Don't know if this helps at all.

 

Bid :)

 

I don't understand what that means. We are given levels that start at 1C and move to 1B, 1A, then 2C etc, and we are told levels that the child should typically be at in each academic year.

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I went to the MEP meeting on Friday, only to find my son had been sick in the taxi and that they wanted me to take him home. The SENCO (who is pregnant) said that she wasn't prepared to put herself or her child at risk by my son remaining in school for the duration of the meeting. I really had to bite my tongue as I am trying to keep a good relationship with school.

I am fuming. I thought this issue was resolved. I sent a letter from my GP and also one was sent from the Consultant at the childrens hospital saying that he should not be sent home if he is showing vomitting which ties in with having had a migraine, or with travel sickness. Yet they've just done it again. I've asked for the Head Teacher to phone me because their blanket policy of keeping them off school for 48 hours every time he is sick is meaning he is missing alot of schooling. Yet again, there is nothing wrong with him. He is eating/drinking and running around.

I have spoken with the LEA who have a policy where the children cannot sit in the front of the car until they are 10. They are also stuffing the cars full with children - my son now travels with 4 other children, and he's back to having to wear headphones - something he hasn't done for over a year.

The MEP meeting is for next Friday.

I have sent an email to the SENCO asking for her to provide me with information prior to that meeting eg. what ICT/Software my son is using to help support him with literacy and numeracy. His Statement lists some and says that software such as those should be used. After a conversation I had with his SALT I am of the opinion that they aren't using any. Which means the SENCO mislead me.

I am so sick and tired of this, I feel like it is never going to stop.

I've also come to the conclusion that i'm going to need a private assessment for dyslexia. However the PP has told me that at AR the LEA may choose not to include this private advice and recommendations and that my only course of action then would be to ask for a re-assessment. Does anyone know how long private reports are valid for. The ones I had done are just over a year old. And I cannot afford to have them done all over again.

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I don't understand what that means. We are given levels that start at 1C and move to 1B, 1A, then 2C etc, and we are told levels that the child should typically be at in each academic year.

 

If you look on the dfcs site it explains the levels.

 

The average level for KS1 (at the end of Year 2) is 2

The average level for KS2 (at the end of Year 6) is 4 (some will get a level 3, some will get a level 5, most will get a level 4 and a few will be below level 3).

 

KS1 is Years R-2

KS2 is Years 3-6

KS3 is Years 7-9

 

Each level is divided into a, b and c, so schools can show progress along the way from one level to another.

 

So bid is saying as long the child gets a level 5 (a,b or c) at the end of Year 9, they would be seen as able enough to return to a mainstream school.

 

It is not just about what levels the child is getting - it is about what level the child COULD get if he had the right help (as many of our children in mainstream under-achieve because their needs are not met).

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If you look on the dfcs site it explains the levels.

 

The average level for KS1 (at the end of Year 2) is 2

The average level for KS2 (at the end of Year 6) is 4 (some will get a level 3, some will get a level 5, most will get a level 4 and a few will be below level 3).

 

KS1 is Years R-2

KS2 is Years 3-6

KS3 is Years 7-9

 

Each level is divided into a, b and c, so schools can show progress along the way from one level to another.

 

So bid is saying as long the child gets a level 5 (a,b or c) at the end of Year 9, they would be seen as able enough to return to a mainstream school.

 

It is not just about what levels the child is getting - it is about what level the child COULD get if he had the right help (as many of our children in mainstream under-achieve because their needs are not met).

 

That is exactly what is bugging me. His private assessments say 'high average', but he is performing well below that in numeracy and literacy, literacy especially. He is now in year 4, and in year 5 we have to look at secondary provision. Well if he makes two increment increases from where he is now in year five he will be on 1b for literacy and 1a for numeracy. And having spoken with a mainstream SENCO he is saying that it is impossible to differentiate to those levels as it becomes a totally different lesson. So, even now it looks like we are heading for 'special school', which again means all those in our area are for children with moderate to severe learning difficulties, which is not the same as a specific learning difficulty.

I suppose if I am wanting to place him in a specific ASD/specific learning difficulty school, then his performance to date is actually proving that that is the type of school he will need. However that will definately require another trip to SEND and all the costs involved, which we won't have this time around.

 

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I am going to look at a specific learning disability school on 25th November. This school is not ASD specific. It does have children on the spectrum there, and all classes are small. The headmaster is an Educational Psychologist who has a specific way of teaching children with dyslexia. And he has said that if he does not feel my son would be able to fit into his school that he can recommend what kind of school he would need.

 

 

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I just wanted to add, to make it clear, that the level of academic achievement, or lack of it, is not one of the criteria that are taken into account when allocating a secondary school place in main stream unless it is in an area were there is selective education (Grammar Schools) or if it would be detrimental to other pupils. Whether a school is the most suitable and could offer a suitable education in quite a different thing.

To sum up, if your local school has a place available there have to be a very good reason for you not to get it. I fact a SENs child has priority over others.

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I don't understand what that means. We are given levels that start at 1C and move to 1B, 1A, then 2C etc, and we are told levels that the child should typically be at in each academic year.

 

Further clarification from DH...

 

They've observed that the pupils entering year 7 are roughly 2 levels behind their peers, so roughly a high level 1 although some are still on P levels.

 

Bid :)

 

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I teach in a secondary school and we have a small group of children who would have been in special schools in the past. They cope quite well but are not wholly within mainstream classes. We also have a lot of Aspergers children who are integrated and who receive quite a lot of support, particularly at lunch and break times. Your son would be entitled to go to the local secondary school if that was what you thought was best for him. I would be careful though - there are some schools I would not consider having seen them from the teaching side. You need to get a proper insight. Turning up at lunchtime is often a revelation.

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Also, average children might move up two sub-levels a year but those who struggle don't and the very bright ones move up faster. The data is only valid in terms of statistics and in terms of a large cohort. Schools use that data incorrectly as a way of monitoring teaching and learning.

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It is not just about what levels the child is getting - it is about what level the child COULD get if he had the right help (as many of our children in mainstream under-achieve because their needs are not met).

 

Another interesting point DH has raised is the fact that some pupils come from mainstream unable to work as independent learners as they have had so much TA/LSA support in mainstream. This can further skew their levels.

 

Bid :)

 

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The data is only valid in terms of statistics and in terms of a large cohort. Schools use that data incorrectly as a way of monitoring teaching and learning.

:thumbs: :thumbs: And this is the key point throughout this discussion.

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I am going to look at a specific learning disability school on 25th November. This school is not ASD specific. It does have children on the spectrum there, and all classes are small. The headmaster is an Educational Psychologist who has a specific way of teaching children with dyslexia. And he has said that if he does not feel my son would be able to fit into his school that he can recommend what kind of school he would need.

 

 

Just want to wish you luck with your visit to the spersific school and it is nice to know if it isnt the right provision the headteacher will help you with the next step, the schools website I gave you will also have some spersific schools too.

 

Another thing that helps is reading the decisions on SENDIST website.

 

Also remember that one of the MPs even had to go to SENDIST to get her son in a spersific special school and she won, so do fight all the way especially for Secondary School.

 

JsMumxxxx

 

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From speaking with the SENCO at the secondary school opposite our house (which I went to myself), he didn't sound that keen. For example he was saying that if a child needed alot of adult input that would mean that the first 15 hours of LSA support they would have to provide, which would mean them pulling an LSA that supported the whole class to be his dedicated LSA, and that eventhough the LEA would 'top up' the remainder of any funding, if he needed the LSA throughout the day all week, they still cannot get back that initial 15 hours which was dedicated to the whole class, and which is now dedicated to one child. I know that the funding is now delegated to schools, so this is really a none argument. But no-one wants to send their child that has that kind of 'attitude' towards support. And they don't have any specific learning difficulty expertise. I just wanted their opinion as a bog-standard secondary school. He said I should come and have a look around, which I will do.

But i've also got to look at other schools as well.

 

Another question I have is that as the AR is late - ie. around 6 months late. When will we do the second AR. Should the review date always be yearly from the date the Statement was first finalised? Or is the second AR within 12 months of the first AR?

 

I'm off now to find the SENDIST website.

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hi sally, my boy is now in yr 10 at high school, he attends an ASD resource there.He is severley dyslexic like your son.ALot of his learning difficulties are connected to auditory processing probs and an inability to remain focussed.He is also dyspraxic and has severe handwriting probs too.At yr 6 he was scoring level 2 and 3 in eng and maths.This has,nt improved at all and we have had to accept that he is never going to learn due to his difficulties.His science is alot better and with support he is working at level 7.His eng and maths classes are in small groups about 10 pupils with an lsa also and most of the kids in this class have differentiated work with in the class.It,s been the best thing for my son, we looked at private dyslexic schools but it was,nt gonna be right for him as his asd impacted on himalot aswell iyswim.Good luck with you visit on the 25th, suzex

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Another question I have is that as the AR is late - ie. around 6 months late. When will we do the second AR. Should the review date always be yearly from the date the Statement was first finalised? Or is the second AR within 12 months of the first AR?

 

I'm not sure of that answer (though the CofP says the statement should be reviewed at least annually), but whenever the review should be, the Yr 6 Review should be in October in order to allow time for the transition stuff (so in my son's case we had a review in July and then one in October).

 

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Also, average children might move up two sub-levels a year but those who struggle don't and the very bright ones move up faster.

 

The person at the SEN conference was explicit that ALL children should make 2 sub-levels of progress, and that there can be no excuse for a child with SEN not to make 2 sub-levels of progress (though the gaps between sub levels at P levels are smaller). Ofsted will be looking at SEN provision in much more detail in future, so it will be interesting to see what they find in schools.

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The person at the SEN conference was explicit that ALL children should make 2 sub-levels of progress, and that there can be no excuse for a child with SEN not to make 2 sub-levels of progress (though the gaps between sub levels at P levels are smaller). Ofsted will be looking at SEN provision in much more detail in future, so it will be interesting to see what they find in schools.

This can only be a aspiration as there are clearly some children that with the best will in the world will never be able to achieve this.I work with adults who clearly have little more academic ability that would be expected of a 5 year old.

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This can only be a aspiration as there are clearly some children that with the best will in the world will never be able to achieve this.I work with adults who clearly have little more academic ability that would be expected of a 5 year old.

 

But I think progress can always be made and should always be the active goal. I work with some of the most profoundly disabled young people and we still see steps forward, however small.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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But I think progress can always be made and should always be the active goal. I work with some of the most profoundly disabled young people and we still see steps forward, however small.

It also depends how you define progress. Who says 'progress' is only what is measurable through SAT tests?

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thats true mumble even though my son on the face of it has made little progress in english and maths since he has been at high school , he has made progress in the areas of working more independently, staying on task etc.This progress however isn,t measured on any exam etc so it looks to all that there has been no improvement.Its very hard when kids with dyslexia etc are only measured on their achievements in an exam situation, my son has just been assessed for his big gcse,s next year.We were in the strange position of hoping he would come out very low , which he did , which means he,ll have extra time , a scribe should he need it and a reader also.(not in the eng exam of course)

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hi sally, my boy is now in yr 10 at high school, he attends an ASD resource there.He is severley dyslexic like your son.ALot of his learning difficulties are connected to auditory processing probs and an inability to remain focussed.He is also dyspraxic and has severe handwriting probs too.At yr 6 he was scoring level 2 and 3 in eng and maths.This has,nt improved at all and we have had to accept that he is never going to learn due to his difficulties.His science is alot better and with support he is working at level 7.His eng and maths classes are in small groups about 10 pupils with an lsa also and most of the kids in this class have differentiated work with in the class.It,s been the best thing for my son, we looked at private dyslexic schools but it was,nt gonna be right for him as his asd impacted on himalot aswell iyswim.Good luck with you visit on the 25th, suzex

 

Is the ASD resource attached to a mainstream school? Does your son get input/advice from a Specialist Teacher for Dyslexia?

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But I think progress can always be made and should always be the active goal. I work with some of the most profoundly disabled young people and we still see steps forward, however small.

 

Bid :)

 

 

It also depends how you define progress. Who says 'progress' is only what is measurable through SAT tests?

Totally agree with both the above points.

Progress can always be made? Yes but sometimes it is in such small steps that it is all but unnoticed. We can set goal, but they must be achievable taking the individuals abilities into account.

 

Each child ( or adult come to that) should be assessed as an individual and their progress measured accordingly.

 

As for SATs, I wouldn't give them house room. A total wast of everyone time and effort.

Edited by chris54

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There should be expectations for all children whatever their difficulties IMO because expectations facilitate progress. The alternative is the old 'sit at the back with the rafia' mentality.

 

Bid :)

 

 

 

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