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trekster

a new forum ASD and mental health?

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hello

 

One member suggested in the "introducing new forum" thread that we have a separate section to discuss mental health problems.

i think it is an excellent idea so im formally requesting something be set up. Even a sub forum to the adolescent ASD one would be

great IMO.

 

Alexis

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I have noticed alot of post are being posted a bout mental health maybe there should be a thread on that, but it should be kept as not searchable by google, and kept as only viewable if you registered with ? Worth think about?

 

I think it's worth remembering that even with a 'hidden' forum/thread, anyone who is a member can still access it. So while your private information may be hidden from google, it could still be read by the 4000 plus members we have here.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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I think mental health is a very specialised area, and I don't think it's something that our mods would feel comfortable moderating or have the expertise to moderate(?). I think the 'beyond adolescence' and 'medication' sections are both areas suited to general discussion about meds/interventions etc, and the resources section offers links for people looking for specific information and/or online forums and resources that are better equipped/more appropriate to deal with and offer advice on mental health issues.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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I have seen many forums with mental health forums within autism/aspergers, that have a section for mental health. I know a few people happen here have mentioned there mental health and don't think there placing the posts in the right place, so i thought maybe it would be better having its own section- that way you can choose whether u want to reply to that certain thread or not.

 

I understand what your saying BID, and i dont think it is right for someone just looking on forums without registering to spy on people, or troll us. I were actually saying that the only registered members would be only able to view the section.

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I have seen many forums with mental health forums within autism/aspergers, that have a section for mental health.

 

Can I ask why you don't feel comfortable using those resources (or if you do use them/feel comfortable with them why you feel the need to see them duplicated here)?. Different forums/websites offer different things, and maybe there are sites (an/or moderators?) out there that feel they have the expertise, knowledge, understanding etc to offer support to the mentally ill, and maybe some do that well/responsibly and some do it badly/(and whether unwittingly or knowingly is a different thing entirely) inappropriately.

Why, also, do you feel that the 'general advice' sections are inappropriate for 'general discussion' of mental health issues - because a 'special area' with 'separate log-in facilities' etc sounds to me like a 'mental health forum' rather than a board? And I really, really do feel that an effective mental health support forum needs to be administered by people with some degree of expertise in that field. I'm not suggesting for a minute that autistic people's mental health co-morbids do not need addressing; I just don't believe that amatuer psychology, 'caring and sharing' of personal problems with 'forum buddies' etc are appropriate responses to those needs. You're dealing with an area of support need where well-meaning reinforcement, normalisation, projection etc could have fatal consequences and where offering that kind of support opens doors on all sorts of potential victimisation, abuse and manipulation. That's true of autism too, of course, or any other disability for that matter, but the boundaries and complexities are very different.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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I understand what your saying BID, and i dont think it is right for someone just looking on forums without registering to spy on people, or troll us. I were actually saying that the only registered members would be only able to view the section.

 

But potentially that is still over 4000 people.

 

Just offering it as a thought as I think it can be easy for people to be lulled into a false sense of security if a forum is 'hidden' or 'private' because actually it is neither...

 

Bid :)

 

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OK, mod hat on now: :ph34r:

 

Thanks for starting the new thread, trekster (and Special talent for the original suggestion). It's good to discuss new ideas for the forum. All views are welcome but there is bound to be disagreement so please respect each other's opinions and keep it polite.

 

BD, I think you're reading a lot of things into Special talent's post that she hasn't actually said so it's a bit unfair to have a go at her. I don't think trekster or special talent are suggesting there should be a separate area offering specialised help on mental health issues or with separate log in facilities. I think they are suggesting that there could be a separate subsection which operates in the same way as other boards on the forum, and possibly is not accessible by unregistered members.

 

Special Talent, I don't think Baddad has expressed any agreement with your views, but I am sure he did not mean to upset you personally. Of course you are entitled to give your opinion but be prepared for others to disagree with it.

 

Does anyone else, who hasn't contributed to this thread so far, have an opinion on this topic?

 

K x

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OK, mod hat on now: :ph34r:

 

BD, I think you're reading a lot of things into Special talent's post that she hasn't actually said so it's a bit unfair to have a go at her. I don't think trekster or special talent are suggesting there should be a separate area offering specialised help on mental health issues or with separate log in facilities. I think they are suggesting that there could be a separate subsection which operates in the same way as other boards on the forum, and possibly is not accessible by unregistered members.

 

Special Talent, I don't think Baddad has expressed any agreement with your views, but I am sure he did not mean to upset you personally. Of course you are entitled to give your opinion but be prepared for others to disagree with it.

 

Does anyone else, who hasn't contributed to this thread so far, have an opinion on this topic?

 

K x

 

'Having a go at her' ?

To steal a phrase from Ian Dury - things have got read into what I never said...

I perhaps did misread the bit about seperate log-ins - or was there something elsewhere/edited that gave that impression? - but I've certainly not said anything personally challenging or (as you pointed out) intended to...

I think maybe special talent 1,2,3 felt Bid's first post expressed agreement or that she mistook my 'BD' to read bid (probably the latter as bid's second posts is just a reiteration of the concerns she raised in the first one)...

I'd still be interested in seeing answers to the questions I raised in my other posts, though, and will probably have other questions on this topic that are potentially (but not intentionally or maliciously) far more 'challenging' for some people than those I have raised so far. And to clarify that - in the event of misunderstanding - that's not because I think mental health is an issue that shouldn't be discussed, and neither because I would be making any individual judgements: it's because I think mental health is something demanding professional treatment rather than speculation and (however well intended) unqualified advice.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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As many children and a growing number of Adults do have additional mental illness diagnosis when there dx/undx ASD needs are unmet or support isnt adaquate, J has mental health issues and it is very difficult to manage throw the CAMHS as they didnt really have the funding to support him, ie councilling/play therapy ect.... so yes I agree an ASD and Mental Health would be a good sub section.

 

JsMumxxx

:thumbs:

 

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Edited sorry.

On reflection post was too long winded to be helpful.

Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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I didn't forsee that the discussion would take such a complicated turn - people can and do post about AS related mental health issues all the time across the boards anyway. We have guidelines which say what should and shouldn't be posted, what the limitations of this forum are in terms of providing support and where to go for further qualified help. I don't think anyone is proposing a change to that - or have I missed something? :unsure:

 

I thought the purpose of this thread was just to discuss whether there should be a separate subsection for the kind of topics that already exist on the forum. Anything else is surely :offtopic:?

 

K x

 

 

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I didn't forsee that the discussion would take such a complicated turn - people can and do post about AS related mental health issues all the time across the boards anyway. We have guidelines which say what should and shouldn't be posted, what the limitations of this forum are in terms of providing support and where to go for further qualified help. I don't think anyone is proposing a change to that - or have I missed something? :unsure:

 

I thought the purpose of this thread was just to discuss whether there should be a separate subsection for the kind of topics that already exist on the forum. Anything else is surely :offtopic:?

 

K x

 

Sorry Kathryn.

:shame: For me I think since I still have no avatar for slap my hands. :rolleyes:

I do not think you are missing anything.

People do post about AS related mental health issues all the time across the boards anyway and I think the guidelines are fine.

Karen.

 

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Does anyone else, who hasn't contributed to this thread so far, have an opinion on this topic?

Yes. Like it or not, mental health issues are more prevalent within the ASD population (something I would dearly love more research into - for instance are these genuine co-morbids, actually part of the ASD, or caused/exacerbated by unmet support needs?).

 

There are quite a significant number of members here, either adult members or parents of children, who have had to deal with their/their child's mental health issues (I would prefer the term 'mentally ill' were not used as it throws up all sorts of stereotypes/connotations).

 

Positives:

  • may make it easier for people to discuss such issues (here, with others, or with professionals) if they see that they are not alone in having such feelings :notworthy:
  • for some people, just having a place where they can write in a supportive environment about how they're feeling may be helpful (taking into account issues below) - for some ASD people it can be harder to find a real person to talk to (especially non-professional)
  • others may be able to help someone take the next step/know where to go when everything may seem very confusing. As a related example, my 'benefits' thread in Help and Advice has been so supportive and helpful to me because it's given me the guidance by people who have not only been there but who understand my reaction/panic to too much information coming in and not knowing where to start - that sort of response is much harder to get from NTs without experience of ASDs, not through any fault of their own
  • anything that makes it easier for someone to get information/links in a crisis situation has to be positive (but see below)

 

Difficulties:

  • within mental health conditions can be incredibly variable (I wonder if this might be more-so within the ASD population where things can be taken more literally and a black and white approach can lead to very polarised thinking) and could quickly move outside of what others can help with - after entering into a supportive role
  • the boundaries between what constitutes a 'mental health issue' and extreme of normal are not that simple to segregate on a forum like this (we're not going to be running to the DSM-IV to say, yep, that can go in! :lol:)
  • issues can develop and move between one category and the other
  • the poster themselves would need to recognise that their issue was a mental health issue to post it there (often the hardest part)

 

We have previously, I think about a year ago, had several discussions on the same lines. There has to be a balance on what can be discussed. This is not censorship but protecting vulnerable people (both those posting and those trying to help). There is a limit to what can be discussed and I don't think it's appropriate, for instance, for the forum to be an alternative to crisis support - help individuals know where to go (I can't remember how the crisis support thread is set out off hand) either for more information of immediate crisis support, but make it very clear that messages asking for such support/posting suicidal intentions will be immediately deleted.

 

Overall, I do not think there is a need for a separate sub-forum. My concern with something being in the adolescence section would be that it suggests an age-restriction to such issues when there are a number of parents who have posted about much younger children having similar issues and I think we can help each other to understand them. I can't see a closed forum working principally for the reason Bid gives - if anyone wants to read it they can just sign up for membership, and I think (hope) that being open encourages people to think about their posts and reduces the potential for abuse.

 

Principally, this is an ASD forum and that is the way is should remain. Some linkage of the issues is useful because there is a dearth of opportunity for this. Someone asked about other sites - one thing I have found is that everything is very compartmentalised, so there are some fantastic sites for advice/discussion on different mental health issues and some, like this, for ASD issues, but bringing them together is quite difficult and advice may not be relevant. This can lead, particularly when external support services seem to work to the same compartmentalised model (we'll deal with your mental health issues, but won't take into account your ASD :wallbash:) to feeling like you are the only person going through this.

 

Conclusion to this waffle (:rolleyes::lol:): my preference would be to keep things as the are, ensure that the crisis links are easily accessible/updated, and continue to be supportive of each other (within previously agreed boundaries) as it is through discussion and sharing of ideas that we can challenge stigmatising stereotypes and poor understandings of mental health where individuals may feel marginalised and/or that they cannot talk about such issues. As I have often said previously, no one else has to read what others write, so if there are others who find discussion of mental health difficult for whatever reason, they can simply choose not to read those threads.

 

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i dont know why u are now disagreeing, u agreed at first with me, but now u dont. thank u for upsetting me i were only open to suggestions, im allowed to do that or am i not. im very upset.

 

I'm sorry if I have upset you in any way, but I was only trying to draw attention to what I think is a very important point, namely that even a 'hidden' section on mental health is still accessible by all the membership which now stands at over 4000...so it won't be as 'private' as the idea of a 'hidden' section suggests.

 

TBH, I wasn't particularly agreeing or disagreeing with you, as I don't have a strong feeling about a mental health forum either way. Personally I wouldn't use such a section, for the reason I have being trying to express :)

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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Hi

 

I think that having such a new forum thread/section is a good idea. Whilst lots of people (NTs included) can have mental health issues, so too can people with an ASD. From my own personal experience with my son, I find such issues are complicated by the fact that he has AS and as a result can be much more difficult to handle, therefore, I think it's good to have an ASD-specific mental health issues section as opposed to a general one. This forum can be an excellent source of support and constructive advice. It goes without saying that this could be an extremely complex subject and, as applicable to other sections eg medication, that no one on this forum can give professional advice but rather only offer support, understanding, and general advice, whilst at the same time avoiding providing too much personal information.

 

Caroline.

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Hi

 

I think that having such a new forum thread/section is a good idea. Whilst lots of people (NTs included) can have mental health issues, so too can people with an ASD. From my own personal experience with my son, I find such issues are complicated by the fact that he has AS and as a result can be much more difficult to handle, therefore, I think it's good to have an ASD-specific mental health issues section as opposed to a general one. This forum can be an excellent source of support and constructive advice. It goes without saying that this could be an extremely complex subject and, as applicable to other sections eg medication, that no one on this forum can give professional advice but rather only offer support, understanding, and general advice, whilst at the same time avoiding providing too much personal information.

 

Caroline.

 

that is well said thank you Special Talent.

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Hi all.

Having made one attempt at posting last night and had to edit because this is an issue where I find it difficult to be objective I do have a few thoughts that might be helpful.

 

There are lots of parents who post on mental health issues which are either co-morbids or because it can be difficult to distinguish between co-morbids with ASD and mental health issues.The advice for under eighteens and resources available can be very different for under eighteens compared to adults.So I think if there was a mental health section of the forum it might be helpful to have it within '' beyond adolescence ''.

 

I have found that mainstream mental health services often have very little understanding of ASD.So strategies that might be suggested on a mainstream Forum and would usually be very useful for people with ASD are not helpful.I can give one very example from experience.My psychotherapist [private] suggested last week that I should deliberately remove structure and routine from Ben's schedule so that he can learn to manage with the unexpected.For a person with anxiety who has developed structures which are rigid in order to cope this would be good advice.However anyone who understands ASD would appreciate that for a child with ASD structure is helpful.

My psychotherapist tells me almost weekly that Ben is like me and so strategies that have always worked for me will help Ben.As Ben has AS and I don't I am not sure about that.

I believe that accepting that Ben has ASD is vital to supporting him.My psychotherapist does not believe that Ben has ASD.

I think that many mainstream services and Forums have very little understanding of ASD.So people with ASD may not feel well supported .

Although CAMHS are very good in many respects they still see Ben as being ''in autistic retreat'' .I am now starting to think of Ben as having an ASD diagnosis and see that as being part of who Ben is.So am no longer sure that ''autistic retreat'' is something to be fixed.

I can appreciate that for an adult with ASD for mental health issues to not be understood from an ASD perspective could be very unhelpful.A specific area of the Forum to discuss such issues might be helpful.

 

So a section of the Forum for people with ASD who want to explore mental health issues within the context of having ASD might be very useful.

Karen.

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Although CAMHS are very good in many respects they still see Ben as being ''in autistic retreat'' .

Hi Karen, sorry this is :offtopic: but could you tell me what this means please (the autistic retreat bit)? I've got to deal with CMHT next week and one of my big concerns is how much they'll be willing to understand/take into consideration my ASD.

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Hi all.

Having made one attempt at posting last night and had to edit because this is an issue where I find it difficult to be objective I do have a few thoughts that might be helpful.

 

There are lots of parents who post on mental health issues which are either co-morbids or because it can be difficult to distinguish between co-morbids with ASD and mental health issues.The advice for under eighteens and resources available can be very different for under eighteens compared to adults.So I think if there was a mental health section of the forum it might be helpful to have it within '' beyond adolescence ''.

 

I have found that mainstream mental health services often have very little understanding of ASD.So strategies that might be suggested on a mainstream Forum and would usually be very useful for people with ASD are not helpful.I can give one very example from experience.My psychotherapist [private] suggested last week that I should deliberately remove structure and routine from Ben's schedule so that he can learn to manage with the unexpected.For a person with anxiety who has developed structures which are rigid in order to cope this would be good advice.However anyone who understands ASD would appreciate that for a child with ASD structure is helpful.

My psychotherapist tells me almost weekly that Ben is like me and so strategies that have always worked for me will help Ben.As Ben has AS and I don't I am not sure about that.

I believe that accepting that Ben has ASD is vital to supporting him.My psychotherapist does not believe that Ben has ASD.

I think that many mainstream services and Forums have very little understanding of ASD.So people with ASD may not feel well supported .

Although CAMHS are very good in many respects they still see Ben as being ''in autistic retreat'' .I am now starting to think of Ben as having an ASD diagnosis and see that as being part of who Ben is.So am no longer sure that ''autistic retreat'' is something to be fixed.

I can appreciate that for an adult with ASD for mental health issues to not be understood from an ASD perspective could be very unhelpful.A specific area of the Forum to discuss such issues might be helpful.

 

So a section of the Forum for people with ASD who want to explore mental health issues within the context of having ASD might be very useful.

Karen.

 

i understand a little bit but not fully, if you trying to explain it to me it would have to be clearer and simplier because i have trouble to understand what people say if you understand what i mean.

 

No offence or anything but i been to a transition programme conference and it were about children services moving over to adult service for people with learning disabilities, i were invited a long by youth worker but when it got to workshops i were like what the... one person asked me a question and she got told off because she didn't ask me the right question as it were too complex for my needs and i went all shy. The youth worker next time i went to another workshop were sitting by me explaining what they were saying and i wanted to say something but were advocated to the group

 

so do you understand what i mean when talking but i dont mean to cause offence but i had trouble understanding the whole thing but only understood a little bit

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i understand a little bit but not fully, if you trying to explain it to me it would have to be clearer and simplier because i have trouble to understand what people say if you understand what i mean.

 

No offence or anything but i been to a transition programme conference and it were about children services moving over to adult service for people with learning disabilities, i were invited a long by youth worker but when it got to workshops i were like what the... one person asked me a question and she got told off because she didn't ask me the right question as it were too complex for my needs and i went all shy. The youth worker next time i went to another workshop were sitting by me explaining what they were saying and i wanted to say something but were advocated to the group

 

so do you understand what i mean when talking but i dont mean to cause offence but i had trouble understanding the whole thing but only understood a little bit

 

I am not offended at all.

I know that sometimes when I post about things that I feel anxious about I find it difficult to write things in a way people will understand.

I have also had a lot of help from professionals that use lots of jargon and I forgett that normal people don't talk like that. :)

 

I will try again.

 

Some parents post on the Forum and need help for their children.The services for children are different to services for adults.Different organisations also support parents,children and tenagers.So it might be helpful to keep posts by parents regarding mental health topics on the other sections of the Forum.Posts from adults with ASD regarding mental health issues could go on a section within beyond adolescene.

 

Mental Health professionals often have different ideas about problems that people might have.Sometimes people with ASD might think about things in particular ways because they have ASD.The way people with ASD think about things is different but it does not mean that the person is mentally unwell.It is just that they have ASD.

So Ben [my son who is 11 and has ASD] likes to spend lots of time on the computer.He can get engrossed in topics that interest him.However I do not think that is a sign Ben is not mentally well.

Some professionals that do not know about ASD might think that Ben is spending lots of time on the computer because he is mentally unwell.They would say Ben needs to spend lots of time mixing with people so that he does not need to use things like the computer to feel better.For a person with ASD that might not be helpful.

 

People with ASD sometimes find that professionals who do not understand ASD suggest things that do not work for people with ASD.This happens a lot I think with mental health difficulties because very few professionals have any understanding of ASD.

Things are better for children and teenagers with mental health issues than for adults.At least in CAMHS there are some staff with some understanding.

In adult services very few professionals have much understanding of ASD.

 

In groups and on Forums for people with mental health difficulties very few people know much about ASD.So it is very likely that if people with ASD post there about mental health issues that other [NT] people may post things that are not helpful because they don't understand.That is why I think that having a place on the Forum here for people with ASD and mental health isues might be helpful.

 

I hope that is a bit clearer.Sometimes when I feel anxious I find it hard to explain things.Please do ask if I have not answered clearly or you have more questions.

Karen.

 

 

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Hi Karen, sorry this is :offtopic: but could you tell me what this means please (the autistic retreat bit)? I've got to deal with CMHT next week and one of my big concerns is how much they'll be willing to understand/take into consideration my ASD.

 

Hi Mumble.

I promise I will answer your question in the next couple of days.

I may well not answer it here because it is part of something else I am thinking about.But I will let you know where it is. :D

Karen.

 

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I can give one very example from experience.My psychotherapist [private] suggested last week that I should deliberately remove structure and routine from Ben's schedule so that he can learn to manage with the unexpected.For a person with anxiety who has developed structures which are rigid in order to cope this would be good advice.However anyone who understands ASD would appreciate that for a child with ASD structure is helpful.

Karen.

 

Sorry - I'd agree with your psychotherapist... Not totally, but in priciple. Yes, structure is helpful for people with ASD (it's helpful for people without ASD too, but in broad terms moreso for autistic people), but helping people to overcome a dependence on structure that is creating problems for them/others is actually more helpful. If CAMHS are using catch-all terms like 'autistic retreat' that really is worrying, and I don't think forcing socialisation on someone who doesn't want (or need) it can ever be a good thing, but few children (and probably more children with autism, who lack the skills to 'externalise' or generalise) are actually capable of realising the long-term implications of social withdrawl or the huge advantages gained by extending personal 'safety zones'.

Everybody - autistic or otherwise - needs islands of 'safety' within their daily/weekly/annual/lifetime routines; being stressed all of the time is obviously going to be detrimental. But every study shows that a degree of stress is a key part of emotional, social, and psychological development and personal growth, and that's true of autistic people as much as it is NT's.

I once worked with an autistic person who had developed certain fixations about time. If he didn't get afternoon tea at three o'clock he would become increasingly agitated, and by ten past three would be going into 'meltdown' (god i hate that phrase, but it seems to be the accepted terminology...) and damaging himself/others/furniture/whatever. Had that 'structure' been removed from his day at an earlier point (rather than heavily reinforced and accommodated) the situation for him and all of the people supporting him would have been much improved. He could have still had 'afternoon tea' as an island of safety in his day but not so rigidly defined that it actually became disabling for him and others.

Throughout my son's life I have deliberately worked to introduce 'greys'; be that about foods, timetables, activities, whatever. We don't have 'set' times for things we have 'rough' times for things, and we don't have 'set' menus or rituals for other aspects of our lives. Sometimes that had to be achieved with tiny steps, but for other things (especially as he got older) it was pretty much automatic. Sometimes we had time on our hands, and could afford to take the softly softly approach, and other times (i.e. road safety) it was, by necessity, far more confrontational.

Anyhoo, other than that specific point I'd agree that sometimes mental health professionals can have a pretty slim grasp of some of the 'traits' of autism; but I think their expertise in human psychology probably makes them better qualified than a parent of an ASD child who only knows autism, and who may well have come to their own conclusions about what autism means for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with the condition itself whatsoever.

While completely acknowleding that adult mental health services are very VERY flawed, I do think that professionals working in that field, would, by and large, be better equipped to offer advice and support than wellmeaning 'friends' whose only knowledge of the problem(s) faced by the affected individual are completely one sided. I don't think that applies only to autism/mental health, but equally to either of those conditions individually, and, dropping the 'mental health' aspect completely, to psychology/disability in general.

One thing that stands out in you Post, and I hope you don't mind me mentioning it, but I do think it's very relevant...

Your private psychologist thinks one thing about routines, but you think another...

Your private psychologist thinks one thing about your son's diagnosos but you think another...

Your private psychologist tells you that strategies that have worked for you should work for your son but you think they won't...

To me, that suggests consultation with your psychologist is pointless, because you've already arrived at your own conclusions about what is best for your son and act accordingly (and i'm not suggesting you are 'wrong' because I couldn't possibly know one way or another).

I think that's a scenario that happens all the time when parents meet professionals, whether privately or through LA referrals, and the next stage in that process is often that the parent finds a professional who does agree with their own conclusions. Sadly, I think that's all too easy to do in this day and age, and often I think it says more about the parent/professional than it does about the child(and again, please accept that I'm not talking about you or your son etc. - a situation I have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever. I'm just making a general observation I've made many times before that I don't think parents necessarily know what is best for their children, or that professional advice that challenges the assumptions of a parent or a diagnosed person is necessarily wrong).

 

Hope all that makes sense and hasn't caused anyone offense. Certainly, as always, none intended...

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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my CAMHS have no understanding of MH or AS so in october i made a decision to leave as was making me feel worse about myself and my life left like being judged critised all time for everything the pressure took it's tool and was too much didn't see any real positive benefits it was making to going there i felt more depressed and suicidal when i had an appointment there that's how bad it was for i NOT trying to say every CAMHS is like that depends on location professional team etc so i DO agree with lot of others on this thread that somewhere in this forum there is a space for MH and AS as alot time there is the time patience or energy to explore both and how this impacts us and our daily living!!! i felt like i was being blamed and it hurt me like i in some ways caused it all! he belitted me made me feel SO small and stupid and 'chucked me out' literally after 10 mins of being in there! useless pointless frustrating going through all that heartache for what -nothing in my eyes he was rude had no people skills very blunt cold etc made me so low and down im myself and doubt myself further in what i could do etc used make me so angry drive me mad with his pathetic comments and read from pyschtrist book of dictonary speak!!!" grrr......

 

 

 

 

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I am not offended at all.

I know that sometimes when I post about things that I feel anxious about I find it difficult to write things in a way people will understand.

I have also had a lot of help from professionals that use lots of jargon and I forgett that normal people don't talk like that. :)

 

I will try again.

 

Some parents post on the Forum and need help for their children.The services for children are different to services for adults.Different organisations also support parents,children and tenagers.So it might be helpful to keep posts by parents regarding mental health topics on the other sections of the Forum.Posts from adults with ASD regarding mental health issues could go on a section within beyond adolescene.

 

Mental Health professionals often have different ideas about problems that people might have.Sometimes people with ASD might think about things in particular ways because they have ASD.The way people with ASD think about things is different but it does not mean that the person is mentally unwell.It is just that they have ASD.

So Ben [my son who is 11 and has ASD] likes to spend lots of time on the computer.He can get engrossed in topics that interest him.However I do not think that is a sign Ben is not mentally well.

Some professionals that do not know about ASD might think that Ben is spending lots of time on the computer because he is mentally unwell.They would say Ben needs to spend lots of time mixing with people so that he does not need to use things like the computer to feel better.For a person with ASD that might not be helpful.

 

People with ASD sometimes find that professionals who do not understand ASD suggest things that do not work for people with ASD.This happens a lot I think with mental health difficulties because very few professionals have any understanding of ASD.

Things are better for children and teenagers with mental health issues than for adults.At least in CAMHS there are some staff with some understanding.

In adult services very few professionals have much understanding of ASD.

 

In groups and on Forums for people with mental health difficulties very few people know much about ASD.So it is very likely that if people with ASD post there about mental health issues that other [NT] people may post things that are not helpful because they don't understand.That is why I think that having a place on the Forum here for people with ASD and mental health isues might be helpful.

 

I hope that is a bit clearer.Sometimes when I feel anxious I find it hard to explain things.Please do ask if I have not answered clearly or you have more questions.

Karen.

 

understood.

 

what about if some has ASD but also been diagnosed with a complex mental disorder that isnt common with some one with ASD? i know this has happened

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understood.

 

what about if some has ASD but also been diagnosed with a complex mental disorder that isnt common with some one with ASD? i know this has happened

 

Hi.I will try and answer that question I promise in the next day or two.

I will probably put it on the same thread as Mumbles question.

I do have an answer but have just lost it once and it may take things off topic. :D

I spent forty minutes drafting the answer before something for another family member popped on the screen and I lost the draft. :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

 

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Hi.I will try and answer that question I promise in the next day or two.

I will probably put it on the same thread as Mumbles question.

I do have an answer but have just lost it once and it may take things off topic. :D

I spent forty minutes drafting the answer before something for another family member popped on the screen and I lost the draft. :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

 

woops a daisy,. just take your time.

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Sorry - I'd agree with your psychotherapist... Not totally, but in priciple. Yes, structure is helpful for people with ASD (it's helpful for people without ASD too, but in broad terms moreso for autistic people), but helping people to overcome a dependence on structure that is creating problems for them/others is actually more helpful. If CAMHS are using catch-all terms like 'autistic retreat' that really is worrying, and I don't think forcing socialisation on someone who doesn't want (or need) it can ever be a good thing, but few children (and probably more children with autism, who lack the skills to 'externalise' or generalise) are actually capable of realising the long-term implications of social withdrawl or the huge advantages gained by extending personal 'safety zones'.

Everybody - autistic or otherwise - needs islands of 'safety' within their daily/weekly/annual/lifetime routines; being stressed all of the time is obviously going to be detrimental. But every study shows that a degree of stress is a key part of emotional, social, and psychological development and personal growth, and that's true of autistic people as much as it is NT's.

I once worked with an autistic person who had developed certain fixations about time. If he didn't get afternoon tea at three o'clock he would become increasingly agitated, and by ten past three would be going into 'meltdown' (god i hate that phrase, but it seems to be the accepted terminology...) and damaging himself/others/furniture/whatever. Had that 'structure' been removed from his day at an earlier point (rather than heavily reinforced and accommodated) the situation for him and all of the people supporting him would have been much improved. He could have still had 'afternoon tea' as an island of safety in his day but not so rigidly defined that it actually became disabling for him and others.

Throughout my son's life I have deliberately worked to introduce 'greys'; be that about foods, timetables, activities, whatever. We don't have 'set' times for things we have 'rough' times for things, and we don't have 'set' menus or rituals for other aspects of our lives. Sometimes that had to be achieved with tiny steps, but for other things (especially as he got older) it was pretty much automatic. Sometimes we had time on our hands, and could afford to take the softly softly approach, and other times (i.e. road safety) it was, by necessity, far more confrontational.

Anyhoo, other than that specific point I'd agree that sometimes mental health professionals can have a pretty slim grasp of some of the 'traits' of autism; but I think their expertise in human psychology probably makes them better qualified than a parent of an ASD child who only knows autism, and who may well have come to their own conclusions about what autism means for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with the condition itself whatsoever.

While completely acknowleding that adult mental health services are very VERY flawed, I do think that professionals working in that field, would, by and large, be better equipped to offer advice and support than wellmeaning 'friends' whose only knowledge of the problem(s) faced by the affected individual are completely one sided. I don't think that applies only to autism/mental health, but equally to either of those conditions individually, and, dropping the 'mental health' aspect completely, to psychology/disability in general.

One thing that stands out in you Post, and I hope you don't mind me mentioning it, but I do think it's very relevant...

Your private psychologist thinks one thing about routines, but you think another...

Your private psychologist thinks one thing about your son's diagnosos but you think another...

Your private psychologist tells you that strategies that have worked for you should work for your son but you think they won't...

To me, that suggests consultation with your psychologist is pointless, because you've already arrived at your own conclusions about what is best for your son and act accordingly (and i'm not suggesting you are 'wrong' because I couldn't possibly know one way or another).

I think that's a scenario that happens all the time when parents meet professionals, whether privately or through LA referrals, and the next stage in that process is often that the parent finds a professional who does agree with their own conclusions. Sadly, I think that's all too easy to do in this day and age, and often I think it says more about the parent/professional than it does about the child(and again, please accept that I'm not talking about you or your son etc. - a situation I have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever. I'm just making a general observation I've made many times before that I don't think parents necessarily know what is best for their children, or that professional advice that challenges the assumptions of a parent or a diagnosed person is necessarily wrong).

 

Hope all that makes sense and hasn't caused anyone offense. Certainly, as always, none intended...

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Hi BD.

 

 

I have drafted a much longer response that I will post somewhere else at some point.

I posted one post on Friday which went way off topic and hope not to do it again.

However I wanted to respond to some of your comments.

 

I do know the implications of social withdrawl only too well.Hence my ten year commitment to personal private psychotherapy.I will not go into detail but have personal experience that I do not think it would be helpful to discuss.My family are very aware of the issues.

 

My psychotherapist does not know anything about ASD.She is a psychotherapist.Psychotherapists who work with adults are not trained in ASD because individual intensive psychotherapy is recognised as not being a suitable form of treatment for those with ASD.

 

Generaliations based on a knowledge of psychology but with no understanding of ASD can be very damaging however experienced the professional is.

If there is no need for specialist understanding of ASD why have an ASD Forum at all.

Why does everyone not such use a general psychology Forum.

Why do children with ASD need specialist provision within education ?

 

My psychotherapist has never met Ben or any other member of my family other than myself.

Ben is certainly not limited by structure,having ASD or anything else in his life.He is fully integrated in a mainstream secondary school.He is excelling in all areas other than maths [where the teacher allowed other pupils to bully him with regard to ASD which has set Ben back a bit].

Ben challenges me on a daily basis showing that people with ASD need not be limited by their disability or others expectations.

This is partly due to Ben and partly down to three years of extremely hard work and a weekly commitment to CAMHS work which included my husband being able to work round appointments which has been no smal matter

My psychotherapists response regarding Ben needing not to be limited has arisen in part because I still drive Ben to school in the car.

.

He would have to leave home at seven in the morning and get a central line tube and bus in order to go to school.

Our elder son was threatened by several youths in an incident which we have decided to not take further with the police partly because the police could not guarantee our safety on the estate we live on.So Ben walking round the estate after dark does not sound a good idea at the minute.

 

I am not an adult who only knows about ASD.

Far from it having had ten years of individual psychotherapy,eighteen months of family therapy and three years psychotherapy with one of the few CAMHS psychotherapists in the country and having trained with CPNS as a diastrict nurse.Also having a husband who is a deputy director within a mental health trust we probably know more about mental health than ASD.

I only started reading about ASD three years ago.

I do believe that there is not a lot of knowledge about ASD within mental health services.

Ben and myself were involved for some time in a group for users of CAMHS services which represented users views.The lack of basic awareness of Ben's basic needs was clear .

He gave a presentation to all CAMHS staff in the borough.The person organising the event could not understand why Ben might find it difficult to read out his presentation.He had prepared a power point presentation but nobody had the equipment to enable a link to a whiteboard.

Also one of the Social Workers did not know what ASD is and another said she had never come across a client with ASD despite having worked with CAMHS for years. :huh:

As regards mental health services for adults I speak with knowledge from having a husband who works within an organisation.

My husband and myself have both funded private therapy because there is currently no provision for adults other than those who have serious mental health issue.

We spend as much on therapy as we do on feeding the family ever week.

I know that one adult with AS in the borough currently has some counselling funded by the PCT after a battle....for something like three months.

 

We have never had any private psychology input for Ben.We have never had any private input with regard to Ben.We have been fully committed to our work with CAMHS to a degree most people could never understand even when CAMHS have not agreed with each other.

I think the private psychologist you refer to is my psychotherapist.

Yes it may be pointless my seeing her if I cannot agree which is why I am considering giving up after ten years .

As I said I probably do know what is better for Ben than she does since she has never met him. :huh:

Much as I respect my private therapist [having seen her for ten years and as she knows me better than my husband]I do not pay her to advise me about Ben.

Edited by Karen A

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Hi Karen A -

 

I won't respond to your post at length, because it somewhat hijacks the thread, but to just reiterate a couple of points:

I wasn't talking about you or anyone else personally (as I pointed out in my own post several times -I couldn't possibly know) so I wasn't suggesting you were a parent with 'only knowledge of ASD'. Neither your expertise (or lack of expertise) nor your husbands expertise (or lack of expertise - and please don't take that the wrong way, I'm just making a point you've made ourself that just because somebody works in a professional capacity does not automatically mean that they are good (or bad) at their job - they are perfectly capable of projecting their own preconceptions/experiences onto situations as anyone else) is relevent to the wider issue, unless you are the only person who actually responds to posts on mental health.

Your experiences with your own psychotherapist do, however, exemplify my general concerns; that people who do not get the reinforcement they want will look elsewhere for it - and there is no better place to do that than on the internet with huge numbers of people who only get to hear half of the story and who are often more than happy to generalise/project their own historical/emotional experiences onto anyone who presents themselves as a 'victim' or 'fellow sufferer'. There are some very shocking examples of that kind of thing (normalisation/legitimisation) on the internet, and while those extreme examples have not got anything to do with a family forum or autism or mental health per se they can certainly find their way onto such forums; often masquarading as something else entirely.

When potentially dangerous or damaging impulses (and I'm not talking about the extreme ones i touched on above) are 'normalised I think that's dangerous, whether it be in relation to autism or mental health or - as I said - any other experience of disability/social exclusion/marginalisation, and have said so many, many times in the past on this forum. I think when you add mental health issues into that equation the potential for doing real harm is increased exponentially.

I've never once said that ASD doesn't imply a need for specialist understanding: I just don't think that having a child with ASD or even being a person with ASD necessarily equates to 'specialist understanding' - I can experience a broken leg, but it doesn't make me an Orthopedic Surgeon. I am hugely sceptical (again, as I've expressed on this forum many times) of the automatic assumption that 'parents know best', and am concerned that many parents seem to reject every piece of advice they receive that does not match their expectations/preconceptions, and the way that aspects of autism are 'cherry picked' for projection onto their own child when there is very little evidence to back that projection up, or even when there is directly contradictory evidence...

Anyhoo - slightly wandering from the point: I think that mental health issues as a co-morbid to autism (or autism as a comorbid to mental health issues, depending on the 'heirarchy of diagnosis' and the most disabling features) is, as you've said, a very, very poorly understood subject. All the more reason, IMO, for leaving it to the few experts that do exist than discussing it on an open forum with people who, for various personal reasons, may find it extremely difficult to be objective.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Oh - Actually, that was at 'quite considerable length' so apologies for that. Karen, I'm quite happy to respond to anything you might want to say on the above, but recognising the risk of us taking over this thread would ask you to do so by PM. Also, of course, equally happy to agree to differ.

 

 

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Can you let me know when you have drafted out my bit please the response too.

 

' What about people with an ASD with a complex mental disorder like me?' I have learn't this year that i realising, that being in the LD psych team isn't really to do with treating the mental health side, to he honest mental health needs to be sorted. I get the feeling they are trying to treat my disability when i don't want it treated i want treated my mental illness and being DBT may not work for some- but surely they have to train in both sides, because why would the LD team diagnose me along side with a complex mental disorder.

 

I see there is CAMHS and yeah its a ' Child Adolescence Mental Health Service', which i nearly had the ASD advisor when i went to college at 17; surely the advisor is a mental health advisor too. If thats the case why cant there be a 'Adult Mental Health Service', similary to CAMHS. I ended one the LD psych team and now i can't move to a mental health service because the label of my IQ is low, which is unfair.

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:lol:

Hi Karen A -

 

I won't respond to your post at length, because it somewhat hijacks the thread, but to just reiterate a couple of points:

I wasn't talking about you or anyone else personally (as I pointed out in my own post several times -I couldn't possibly know) so I wasn't suggesting you were a parent with 'only knowledge of ASD'. Neither your expertise (or lack of expertise) nor your husbands expertise (or lack of expertise - and please don't take that the wrong way, I'm just making a point you've made ourself that just because somebody works in a professional capacity does not automatically mean that they are good (or bad) at their job - they are perfectly capable of projecting their own preconceptions/experiences onto situations as anyone else) is relevent to the wider issue, unless you are the only person who actually responds to posts on mental health.

Your experiences with your own psychotherapist do, however, exemplify my general concerns; that people who do not get the reinforcement they want will look elsewhere for it - and there is no better place to do that than on the internet with huge numbers of people who only get to hear half of the story and who are often more than happy to generalise/project their own historical/emotional experiences onto anyone who presents themselves as a 'victim' or 'fellow sufferer'. There are some very shocking examples of that kind of thing (normalisation/legitimisation) on the internet, and while those extreme examples have not got anything to do with a family forum or autism or mental health per se they can certainly find their way onto such forums; often masquarading as something else entirely.

When potentially dangerous or damaging impulses (and I'm not talking about the extreme ones i touched on above) are 'normalised I think that's dangerous, whether it be in relation to autism or mental health or - as I said - any other experience of disability/social exclusion/marginalisation, and have said so many, many times in the past on this forum. I think when you add mental health issues into that equation the potential for doing real harm is increased exponentially.

I've never once said that ASD doesn't imply a need for specialist understanding: I just don't think that having a child with ASD or even being a person with ASD necessarily equates to 'specialist understanding' - I can experience a broken leg, but it doesn't make me an Orthopedic Surgeon. I am hugely sceptical (again, as I've expressed on this forum many times) of the automatic assumption that 'parents know best', and am concerned that many parents seem to reject every piece of advice they receive that does not match their expectations/preconceptions, and the way that aspects of autism are 'cherry picked' for projection onto their own child when there is very little evidence to back that projection up, or even when there is directly contradictory evidence...

Anyhoo - slightly wandering from the point: I think that mental health issues as a co-morbid to autism (or autism as a comorbid to mental health issues, depending on the 'heirarchy of diagnosis' and the most disabling features) is, as you've said, a very, very poorly understood subject. All the more reason, IMO, for leaving it to the few experts that do exist than discussing it on an open forum with people who, for various personal reasons, may find it extremely difficult to be objective.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Oh - Actually, that was at 'quite considerable length' so apologies for that. Karen, I'm quite happy to respond to anything you might want to say on the above, but recognising the risk of us taking over this thread would ask you to do so by PM. Also, of course, equally happy to agree to differ.

 

BD I am very happy to agree to differ.

I certainly do not wish to discuss the issue via pm.

 

However I thought it worth saying.I have said exactly the same thing about orthopaedic surgery.

 

 

I've never once said that ASD doesn't imply a need for specialist understanding: I just don't think that having a child with ASD or even being a person with ASD necessarily equates to 'specialist understanding' - I can experience a broken leg, but it doesn't make me an Orthopedic Surgeon. I am hugely sceptical (again, as I've expressed on this forum many times) of the automatic assumption that 'parents know best', and am concerned that many parents seem to reject every piece of advice they receive that does not match their expectations/preconceptions, and the way that aspects of autism are 'cherry picked' for projection onto their own child when there is very little evidence to back that projection up, or even when there is directly contradictory evidence

 

My view regarding mental health comes from hard earned experience.

We spent three years in weekly psychotherapy with one of the best child and adolescent psychotherapists in this country having treatment to support Ben in individual psychotherapy for attachment disorder.We were then refered for a 3di to prove Ben did not have AS.A psychiatrist working in the office next door also for CAMHS then discovered that Ben did have AS.

Ben is about to finish psychotherapy and has not been cured yet despite three years of psychotherapists saying they would cure Ben....once they had discovered the trauma I had caused him.

 

Incidently I never had any preconceptions or views that Ben had ASD.That is why we agreed to psychotherapy.

Ashamed though I now am to admit it I did not want Ben to have ASD.I wanted the psychotherapists to make him better.

 

We still have the utmost respect for the psychotherapists.We have continued to work with them and they have done some excellent work.

However that is not a case of not wanting to see an orthopaedic surgeon for a broken arm because a child has AS.

It is more like a dentist not realising that an eye test is needed.

Sorry if I sound frustrated.

Those three years involved more painful work than you could ever know.

CAMHS are now continuing work with my husband and myself attempting to limit the damage from three years spent digging around in my history.

 

I should explain that the earlier post that I removed on Friday was an attempt to respond to your earlier post.

Some of the issues have been raised again in this last post.

It is now very obvious indeed that most of my views on mental health are miles away from yourself.

I do not feel the need to defend my opinions with you here or via pm.

I am not able to respond in more detail without disclosing more than I am comfortable with.

I have talked about some of my history more than enough.

I don't think those who are new to the Forum need to know all of the painful details. :whistle::whistle::lol:

Some people are probably sick to death of it and think it is more than soon enough for me to move on. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Anyway as I have already apologised to Kathryn once for taking the thread off topic I do not think it is helpful to continue to do so.

Sorry Kathryn.

:tearful:

Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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Special talent 123 and Mumble.Hi. :)

 

I just wanted you to know I will answer your questions in the next couple of days.

I need to find a way to answer that is helpful and does not just take the thread off topic again.

I have not forgotten.

Karen.

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Special talent 123 and Mumble.Hi. :)

 

I just wanted you to know I will answer your questions in the next couple of days.

I need to find a way to answer that is helpful and does not just take the thread off topic again.

I have not forgotten.

Karen.

 

what do u mean take the thread off topic agaiin?

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My view regarding mental health comes from hard earned experience.

 

Last points I'll make on this topic:

You have absolutely no knowledge of what my own experiences (or those of anyone else who might have different views to your own) might be. That's the whole point I make about 'projection' and 'objectivity'. And (again with no personal slight intended - just a general observation) the fact that a child is diagnosed with ASD does not exclude the possibility that aspects of parenting/environment could cause that child to experience emotional trauma.

And it is not the same as a dentist not knowing that an eye test is needed: The point I was making was that experiencing something doesn't make you an expert in it - so if you want to make the analogy at all it should be that having a toothache doesn't make an optician a dentist or that needing glasses does not make a dentist an optician, but then you're just confirming my argument for me.

I'm really, really sorry to be so blunt about this, but if I had a brother or sister or child or parent or friend who was suffering severe mental health problems I would want - regardless of any comorbids, autism or otherwise - them to receive professional treatment, and not for them to have their potential delusional perceptions reinforced, normalised, legitimised etc by people who do not know them, do not know all of the facts (only those which the mentally ill person has chosen to reveal), have no specialist training and may well have their own psychological imperatives from their own histories/backgrounds which are equally negative/destructive or in need of reinforcement, normalisation and legitimsation.

Hope that makes sense.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

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Last points I'll make on this topic:

You have absolutely no knowledge of what my own experiences (or those of anyone else who might have different views to your own) might be. That's the whole point I make about 'projection' and 'objectivity'. And (again with no personal slight intended - just a general observation) the fact that a child is diagnosed with ASD does not exclude the possibility that aspects of parenting/environment could cause that child to experience emotional trauma.

And it is not the same as a dentist not knowing that an eye test is needed: The point I was making was that experiencing something doesn't make you an expert in it - so if you want to make the analogy at all it should be that having a toothache doesn't make an optician a dentist or that needing glasses does not make a dentist an optician, but then you're just confirming my argument for me.

I'm really, really sorry to be so blunt about this, but if I had a brother or sister or child or parent or friend who was suffering severe mental health problems I would want - regardless of any comorbids, autism or otherwise - them to receive professional treatment, and not for them to have their potential delusional perceptions reinforced, normalised, legitimised etc by people who do not know them, do not know all of the facts (only those which the mentally ill person has chosen to reveal), have no specialist training and may well have their own psychological imperatives from their own histories/backgrounds which are equally negative/destructive or in need of reinforcement, normalisation and legitimsation.

Hope that makes sense.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

I am truly very sorry if I said something wrong.

I do not know what I said and I am extremely upsett

I do not know what I have done and am very very sorry if I upsett you BD.

 

Ben cannot have a diagnosis of AS and emotional trauma because it is not allowed within the rules of diagnosis.That is why CAMHS spent five years debating.

I fully agree that even with an AS diagnosis that does not rule out the possible impact of parental issues.

If we did my husband and myself would not have been having support with parenting for three years.

 

I can hardly type this but will have a go.

I never ever intended to suggest that I have any idea of your experiences.

I do not pretend to be objective.

My own family experiences with mental ilness are too traumatic to repeat .

I had a brother who comitted suicide at age 16.I witnessed the comleted suicide and still periodically wake at night traumatised by the experience.

I had two parents who died never having recovered from the trauma.Which had a huge impact on me.

I have recovered very well but will never be the person I would have been having witnessed the trauma myself.

My husaband nearly lost his wife when I nearly committed suicide and nearly left with the boys when he could not cope any more.

I have spent ten years in therapy and am now very well indeed.

I am so well that nobody would have any idea.

Well that is if people do not make judgements almost gaurenteed to set off my anxiety.

 

 

I never pretended to have any idea about your experiences.

I am still at a loss as to what I have done to upsett you.

 

 

 

One thing that I do not understand.

How come it is ok for people with no professional experience who are just parents or people with ASD can post here and yet you do not feel it is appropriate for people with mental health needs to post regarding mental health issues ?

Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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what do u mean take the thread off topic agaiin?

 

Sorry.

It is a term that the mods use when people are talking about things that have nothing at all to do with the thread.

The information does not answer the qusetion asked by the original poster [yourself] but just distracts everyone.

It just confuses everybody.

For a perfect example see my previous post.

If the mods think it is too unhelpful then they will remind people as Kathryn did with me on Friday.

If the people concerned continue to post things that are off topic then the mods decide what to do next. :tearful::tearful::huh:

 

But please don't worry it is not your problem. :)

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.ph...c=23003&hl=

I have posted a reply to your question and Mumble's question here.

 

I will opt out of this thread .

Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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I am truly very sorry if I said something wrong.

I do not know what I said and I am extremely upsett

I do not know what I have done and am very very sorry if I upsett you BD.

 

Ben cannot have a diagnosis of AS and emotional trauma because it is not allowed within the rules of diagnosis.That is why CAMHS spent five years debating.

I fully agree that even with an AS diagnosis that does not rule out the possible impact of parental issues.

If we did my husband and myself would not have been having support with parenting for three years.

 

I can hardly type this but will have a go.

I never ever intended to suggest that I have any idea of your experiences.

I do not pretend to be objective.

My own family experiences with mental ilness are too traumatic to repeat .

I had a brother who comitted suicide at age 16.I witnessed the comleted suicide and still periodically wake at night traumatised by the experience.

I had two parents who died never having recovered from the trauma.Which had a huge impact on me.

I have recovered very well but will never be the person I would have been having witnessed the trauma myself.

My husaband nearly lost his wife when I nearly committed suicide and nearly left with the boys when he could not cope any more.

I have spent ten years in therapy and am now very well indeed.

I am so well that nobody would have any idea.

Well that is if people do not make judgements almost gaurenteed to set off my anxiety.

 

 

I never pretended to have any idea about your experiences.

I am still at a loss as to what I have done to upsett you.

 

 

 

One thing that I do not understand.

How come it is ok for people with no professional experience who are just parents or people with ASD can post here and yet you do not feel it is appropriate for people with mental health needs to post regarding mental health issues ?

Karen.

 

You haven't done anything to upset me, and I wasn't referring to my experiences one way or another - I was just pointing out that you cannot know what experiences people might be drawing on or what might have informed their feelings on the subject of mental health, or what elements of their experiences they might be projecting onto or identifying within the posts of others.

Answering the second question I do have exactly the same kinds of concern about posts made on ASD or by people with ASD and have regularly said so - often in the face of quite strong reactions. And I do not feel it is inappropriate for people to post on mental health issues, I just have concerns about how and to what degree - again, not anything I haven't said before and again not always very well received...

The difference, I guess, is that with mental health people may often have a far greater investment in 'normalising' their experiences, and while that can be an issue with autism (and believe me I have no doubt that in either case it can, of itself, be very comforting/reassuring/helpful to recognise that others have experienced the same/similar things) I feel that, with mental health issues in tandem, perceived 'challenges' to that investment can be far more devastating, and responses to such challenges far more destructive/damaging. Again, it's highlighted in your own post, where you have reacted fearfully to the idea that you have 'touched a nerve'. An innocent poster accidentally 'touching a nerve' for someone with mental health problems could have devastating results for both the poster and the person with the mental health problem, and I don't think that's fair on either party involved.

Coming back to the final point I made in my last post:

 

if I had a brother or sister or child or parent or friend who was suffering severe mental health problems I would want - regardless of any comorbids, autism or otherwise - them to receive professional treatment, and not for them to have their potential delusional perceptions reinforced, normalised, legitimised etc by people who do not know them, do not know all of the facts (only those which the mentally ill person has chosen to reveal), have no specialist training and may well have their own psychological imperatives from their own histories/backgrounds which are equally negative/destructive or in need of reinforcement, normalisation and legitimisation.

 

In closing, I would apologise for upsetting you. It certainly wasn't my intention. I hope that it doesn't detract from the apology in any way to add that I feel it highlights several of the points I am trying to make that you are so upset over things i've written on the subject of mental health that I have repeatedly gone out of my way to highight as impersonal and general observations.

 

L&P

 

BD :(

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This thread has taken a bit of a confrontational turn and there are a couple of private conversations going on within it so I think it's outlived its usefulness for now.

 

The questions to be answered are should there be a separate section for topics related to mental health, and if so, where should it be? Bearing in mind that this thread is part of Forum Matters, we were hoping for practical suggestions - (and thanks Mumble for setting out some of the the pros and cons so clearly). However this thread seems to have stirred up a lot of personal issues for people so I think it best to close it for now and possibly to move some posts out of it, either completely or into a new thread.

 

If anyone still has thoughts/suggestions on the original topic please feel free to pm one the mods - we'll continue to discuss the idea.

 

Kathryn

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