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Is there a 'culture of blame' on the forum?

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I've started this new thread because I didn't want to derail Justine's thread below in education:

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.ph...mp;#entry279027

 

Within this thread a very strongly worded opinion has been expressed that there is a 'culture of blame' and a 'bias against the system' (encompassing education, LAs, SS and health as far as I understand) on this forum.

 

I feel extremely strongly about this statement, which is why I've started a new discussion.

 

I've been a member here for nearly 6 years now. In all that time I have never seen either of these things in evidence. What I do see are parents who care deeply about their children, struggling to achieve the appropriate standard of care in all these areas to which their children are legally entitled.

 

Sometimes parents get it right, and sometimes they get it wrong, but in my opinion expecting the system to provide the care to which your child is entitled is not the same as a culture of blame or a bias against the system.

 

What do other members feel? Do you think there is a 'culture of blame', a 'bias against the system' on our forum??

 

Bid :)

 

Of course, this is just my opinion, and is not meant as a personal comment about any other member...but I didn't know how else to explore what I think is an important issue without starting a new thread as I really didn't want to derail Justine's thread which was asking for advice about an eduction problem :)

Edited by bid

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By it's very nature, a forum such as this (and many others - ASD, other health issues etc.) will attract members often at a time when they are feeling desperate, when things are going wrong, and when they do not know what to do for the best or where to go for help. Additionally, such forums (and I speak from experience with another forum I'm a regular contributor to) are likely to attract individuals whose needs are more 'severe', not necessarily in any comparative 'spectrum place' position, but in terms of other issues they are dealing with. A number of these members will pass through, find the advice to address their particular issue and move on, whilst others will find a home and never leave... (:whistle:)

 

Putting all these issues and 'arrival features' together almost inevitably means that you will end up with a bias in postings made. Many more will be about seeking and giving help rather than saying 'everything's great, ta' (although these are nice too, but what can you respond with other than :thumbs:?).

 

In giving help, there will be a range of responses from the personal 'what I did' stories, to links to advice, to lists of organisations and who to contact. Inevitably at stages this will touch on legal issues, and unfortunately we do live in a society now where you have to do things in writing and consider legal issues (I'm not saying this is right but it is how things are :().

 

What individual members choose to do with the information given is up to them; they know their situation and context best (although sometimes too closely which is where an external opinion is useful). What the forum does is provide a useful sounding board (is that the correct phrase? :unsure:) where someone can see what's available and what the likely reactions will be. It also provides that time gap and way of getting pent up frustration and anger out in a safer environment which may lead to a calmer reaction in the long term. Surely it's better to discuss issues here (however heated) than storm immediately into a school/doctors/hospital/SS waving around accusations, a process which, whether having its basis in truth or not, is going to help no-one?

 

I suspect that overall, the forum may read as a bias against the system simply in statistical terms as it is immediately following the original posting that most replies are received (I could bore you with a discussion of reply drop-off rates and patterns... :rolleyes:) and it is during this time that the OP is more likely to be more aggrieved/frustrated which may subsequently bring out such feelings in respondents. As time moves on and the OP is able to begin to address the issue a more balanced approach is likely to prevail but also the number of replies tails off resulting in a mis-balance between the more legal/rights type postings and supportive/follow-up postings, hence a perceived bias of response towards a fault/legality approach.

 

From my own perspective, I know that I have posted on various issues, say for instance health, where I have come to the forum in a particularly aggrieved/wound-up state because I was fairly confident that I would find a member here who would understand the issues and maybe have some experience/know where to point me. People here have helped me in giving me options and ideas and by using the forum in this way I have had the chance to calm down and approach situations far more rationally. Looking back at some of my posts, they do sometimes come across as blaming others/asking about my rights, but I think that fits in with the above, and generally the actual response I have made to the situation at a later date (i.e. how I have eventually approached the situation I was aggrieved with) has been far more rational/thought-out than might be assumed if someone was to literally think I would take every piece of advice given. We have to remember, it is just advice and we take what helps.

 

And now for some fence sitting :D - I can also understand the desire to avoid what has been labelled a 'bias' (if there is one). I know when I've worked in schools, one of the most frustrating issues was when I found out via a more senior member of staff that a parent had a problem with something related to their child's education - often something that could potentially be easily sorted out had that parent approached me directly - but based on advice to do everything 'legally' they had gone higher first making everything formal and more complicated and resulting in everyone being aggrieved. There needs to be a clear system for parents to follow and this should be followed. If things can be sorted informally this has to be better for all (I'm talking about early stages here; of course particular issues will need to be addressed higher). Much of this is about trust and professionalism. Teachers are not trusted nor is teaching seen as a respected profession (and don't get me started on Mr Shiny Cameron's 'reforms' :angry:). Hmm, I'm detracting...

 

Anyway, did I actually answer the question? :unsure::lol: I suppose 'challenge' is a difficult word. Everyone should be challenged in everything we do because it is only in doing so that we question the status quo and potentially move forward for the good of all. It is the process by which we undertake that challenge we need to consider. Gosh, that was very philosophical for a Saturday afternoon, I think I'll go and lie down for a little now... :lol:

 

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Yes! :lol:

 

Communication between parents and SS and Schools and LEA's and Professional's etc are almost always presented in a bad way and distinctions are rarely drawn between people who seem to have valid issues with these authorities/bodies and those who seem to have unreasonable expectations for their child that have a very negative impact on others. Whenever that is pointed out the person doing the pointing out will be attacked for 'being judgemental' which is an absolute cop out and immediately establishes a victim 'Kulcha' which derails any reasonable debate.

I do not believe that people who work for Social Services are baby snatchers who look to steal children from perfectly adequate parents.

I do not believe that the teaching profession is populated by bullies who sit back and enjoy watching children being victimised ot join in that victimisation.

I do not believe that a diagnosis that meets a parent's approval made by a dinner lady who has a friend who's sister has a little boy who goes to school with an autistic kid is more valid than one made by and ed. psyche or paediatrician (or number of the same depending on how many second/third/fourth opinions are sought) that does not meet with the parents approval.

I do not believe that parent inherently 'know best'.

I do not believe that autistic children are not human: I therefore believe that human psychology can apply equally to behaviours that are manifest in children with autism.

I do not believe that special children are given to special parents.

I do not believe that 'I'm autistic - what's your excuse?' is an appropriate psychology to project onto or establish within any child.

I do not believe that parents of autistic children are any less capable of doing their children harm through ineffective parenting than the rest of the population -in actual fact, every book on psychology I've ever read and the studies contained within them suggest the opposite.

I do not believe that 'expecting a system to provide the care to which your child is entitled' is the same as a culture of blame or a bias against the system'. But I do believe that unreasonable, unrealistic and totally selfish expectations is...

 

Good thread, bid. I've got TONS to say on this! The odd thing is though, you used to seem to agree with me on so many of these issues! :unsure:

Sadly, though, in 'moving the debate' for the very reasonable desire not to derail the other thread you inadvertantly forgot to move over the pertinent factors raised that seemd to evidence that bias - i.e. why a 'positive' thread on a schools actions was met with almost exclusively negative assumptions and responses. What were those words again? Collusion? Force?...

 

Anyhoo... I have to take my son shopping, so i'd best go find his 'exempt from any sort of expectation or personal responsibility' t.shirt and the kakky stick I use against anyone who looks at him the wrong way when he's destroying the shop....

 

L8rs t8rs

 

BD :D

Edited by baddad

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:oops: I think I've misunderstood what this tread was asking as apart from the first point which I can't work out (sorry BD - that's me not understanding it, not saying anything about you) I agree with the issues BD raises, such as not being seen a human. I'm very confused as to the link between this and either this thread or the thread it originated from... Oh well, ignore my first rambling post. :rolleyes:

 

*Goes to lie down in the dark* :lol:

 

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:oops: I think I've misunderstood what this tread was asking as apart from the first point which I can't work out (sorry BD - that's me not understanding it, not saying anything about you) I agree with the issues BD raises, such as not being seen a human. I'm very confused as to the link between this and either this thread or the thread it originated from... Oh well, ignore my first rambling post. :rolleyes:

 

*Goes to lie down in the dark* :lol:

 

No - that was me expanding the topic... all of the things I mentioned are, i believe' part of the bias' problem. I don't think you can look at the bias without looking at the attitudes that contribute to the bias: the underlying 'kulcha'... So yes, it is a big shift from the original topic of one school and one specific issue, but i think that was the intention for the move? :unsure:

In principle, I agree with (I think - it was a very quick look) everything in your post, except I feel it does overlook one very significant factor. While I accept all of the explanations for why the bias might exist, it doesn't make it wrong to point out that bias or to suggest other ways of doing things - but almost exclusively responses to anyone who does point out the bias or suggest other ways are (passively or overtly) aggressive and hostile... effectively, everyone's entitled to their own opinion as long as it's the majority one! :lol:

 

Right - must get o those shops :o

 

:D

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I think generally no there is not.I think most of us come here to get advice and get pointed in the right direction.Unless you are very lucky and have been able to dedicate all you time into finding out every little aspect of ASD/AS,education,in the workplce relationships etc,then of course it is very handy to get peoples opinions.

 

As mumble mentions it is sad we live in a society where everything is about legal "stuff" and people seem to want to always cover there own backs.So I think one should always get things documented for themeselves.

 

As far as SS go they are only humen and often under severe stress so its easy for them to take babies away from their mothers and then realise its aa mistake.I had SS on my back for the greater part of 6 months,because of a false accusation not against me but my ex,I was made to feel guilty (even though I had already left him) and my children had to strip off for doctors and asked questions over and over.It was the worst experience of my life and even though there is no charge and therefore no involvement everytime they change schools it will be mentioned.

 

So my point is,I suppose I would be reluctat to accept help from SS in the future and my accuse them of all sorts because of my negative experience,but it may not be the same for other members who may have had a more positive experience.I think the forum gives people food for thought so they are able to explore all their options before deciding on one path.

 

This is my opinion anyway!

 

 

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While I accept all of the explanations for why the bias might exist, it doesn't make it wrong to point out that bias or to suggest other ways of doing things

Did I say it did? :unsure: Personally I'm all for difference of opinion and choice, otherwise we're back to the status quo. Finding different ways of doing things is partly where I was coming from in saying we needed to find the right way to bring about challenge and change. :)

 

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Thanks for the responses so far :)

 

I'm one of the handful of parents here who have adult children, so I guess you could say we have made the journey from beginning to end as far as education and, to a certain degree, health.

 

I have to say that apart from DLA, every single tiny piece of (perfectly entitled) help and support I got for my son was the result of persistence and challenge. If I hadn't constantly phoned, written and questioned, the sum total of support my son would have had from the age of 5 to the age of 18 would have been one 6 week block of physio/OT when he was 6.

 

If the system actually worked for and supported parents in a better and more accountable way then this forum probably wouldn't exist.

 

I don't think it's accurate to describe the confusion and requests for help from parents as a 'culture of blame'. Mumble, I think you make some very perceptive points in your first post describing the emotional journey of people when they post here.

 

As I said in my OP, sometimes parents get it right and sometimes they get it wrong, but I don't agree with the idea that this forum has somehow been overtaken by a culture of blame. I think this is a disservice to the majority of members here.

 

Bid :)

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Good thread, bid. I've got TONS to say on this! The odd thing is though, you used to seem to agree with me on so many of these issues! :unsure:

Sadly, though, in 'moving the debate' for the very reasonable desire not to derail the other thread you inadvertantly forgot to move over the pertinent factors raised that seemd to evidence that bias - i.e. why a 'positive' thread on a schools actions was met with almost exclusively negative assumptions and responses. What were those words again? Collusion? Force?...

 

I thought I had given a link to the thread as a whole?? That was my intention...

 

And I have to say I didn't use either of those words :blink:

 

Bid :)

 

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I think it depends on what's meant by 'culture of blame'. Two possibilities spring to mind:

 

1. That people seek to apportion blame somewhere, anywhere, rather than looking to what they can do to resolve a problem (personal responsibility)

2. That the forum is perpetuating an opinion that 'the system' is always at fault and we should all be against them.

 

On the whole, I personally don't believe that either is true on this forum. I do believe that many of the people who come here have had dreadful experiences with statutory services and will naturally want to air their grievances as to how they and their children have been let down, and it seems that those experiences outweigh the positives especially when it comes to support in schools. It would seem obvious that there would be more posts about negatives in that case, but I don't think that represents a 'culture of blame'. My rule of thumb would be justification - if families have genuinenly been let down and children mistreated by services intended to provide support, then that blame is valid. I'm sure those families would much rather be posting favourably about the wonderful service they've had but sadly that's not their experience. I don't think it's wrong of people to post when things have gone badly wrong for them, especially when it's clear that they've cooperated with professionals and have tried their very best to work in partnership for their children's welfare, with little or no success.

 

However, I do think it can be difficult for some posters who've largely had positive experiences of the system (and by that,I mean those who've had to fight for support, diagnosis and recognition, not that they've had them handed on a plate) to fully comprehend the horrors that others have gone through. And I can see that to those posters it could seem that people are exaggerating, being unreasonable, apportioning undue blame to the services. For myself, I often feel I must have been mistaken about all the dreadful things that happened to J during his time in school, and surely I can't possibly have been openly lied to by schools, LEAs, doctors etc etc - but sadly it's all true, it really happened.

 

The sad fact is, sometimes the blame for our children actually does land at the feet of the professionals, and I don't think their parents should be harshly criticised for being angry about it.

 

For the record, bid, I totally agree with you that it's not unreasonable to expect a child to have access to the services they've been promised and should be entitled to. What I object to is that those promises are often worth nothing and are made with no intention to deliver. It's no surprise people get so angry at having to fight to have them fulfilled.

 

Karen

x

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Hi

 

It's a difficult one. I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think that the forum's members feel passionately about their children and simply want what they feel is best for them. Children with an ASD have specific needs which frankly aren't always met to varying degrees. Certainly in my experience, everything's been a battle. Absolutely nothing has been easy and that is difficult to deal with, frustrating, soul destroying, etc etc. I personally can feel aggrieved that caring for someone with an ASD is difficult enough, but it's incredibly sad to be faced with constant battles whether it be quest for a diagnoses/answers, support/education, DLA, etc. It can therefore feel like everything is a crusade! I for one am glad that this forum exists because it enables me to vent my frustrations with like-minded people, hopefully provide others with support too, gain support from others, and perhaps more importantly, can keep me level-headed. I hate it when specialists talk about being 'emotionally attached', but sometimes it can be difficult to remain objective. Inevitably, I accept there will be responses that I disagree with, but even those ones, give food for thought. I'm sure that some members of the forum have 'success' stories, however, given the nature of this forum, I think most people post for help and advice. We therefore tend to heard about problems rather than successes. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that.

 

Caroline.

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The trouble is as mumble says, people often arrive here in a state of desperation if I had found this forum 15 years ago when I began a very long journey with Dd1 I too would have been ranting about the treatment we had recieved at the hands of so called proffessionals. Even now I know I am going to have to fight all the way even to get near a dx for Dd3. Our school is excellent but even they are unaware of many of the difficulties that some children have, but would they ever admit to not knowing that a child is distressed or struggling , not likely, so once again it is up to us to fight our childs corner. No wonder we get fed up and come on here to let off a bit of steam with people who know what we are talking about!! B)

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I would say its a forum where naturally many parents raising children with AS/ASD can come and have a rant, get angry and let it all out, talking to others who are, have, been there?

 

How many of us have had to fight to get a statement, or a specialist schools, ect,.,, how many of us have had it to a point of no return, for a lot of us, this is the only really true place you can come and people understand, some cant even get that from thier own families, because of judgements and denial, Its obvously going to bring froward a lot more negative stories but we have had positive stories too but its after a struggle first, and they are mainly saying thanks to the forum, for the help and support, I dont think parents mean to blame culture, its just the way they have been treated, and some its appauling, I dont think SS are baby snatchers either, but they have let our family down, that is just the way I feel, others might love ss, I dont think there is anything wrong with a Autistic Child with a Tshirt Expressing thier behaviour, its a whole less offensive that what they hear from judgemental people suggesting to give that child a good iding, or what a naughty boy! the Tshirts are there to make people think! J doesnt wear one! before you ask, but I wouldnt judge another parent whos child did. NAS wouldnt sell them if paretns didnt buy them and didnt think they helped!

 

Anyway I think this forum should be a place where parents can express, vent and get support and give support where ever possible.

 

JsMumxxx

 

 

 

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Did I say it did? :unsure: Personally I'm all for difference of opinion and choice, otherwise we're back to the status quo. Finding different ways of doing things is partly where I was coming from in saying we needed to find the right way to bring about challenge and change. :)

 

No, not at all - as the rest of the sentence you quoted highlights:

 

While I accept all of the explanations for why the bias might exist, it doesn't make it wrong to point out that bias or to suggest other ways of doing things - but almost exclusively responses to anyone who does point out the bias or suggest other ways are (passively or overtly) aggressive and hostile... effectively, everyone's entitled to their own opinion as long as it's the majority one!

so not you personally at all. :)

 

Karen T - I totally disagree with you about your first point - I think many, many parents absolve their children of any personal responsibility whatsoever using autism as the justification, and then rigorously pursue often unreasonable levels of support that they identify within their children which in many cases are little more than manifestations of those lowered expectations.

I don't think 'the forum' (i.e. the mods and administrators) is perpetuating the opinion that the system is always at fault, but i believe collective opinion of the members often does, and i think the thread that gave rise to this one (but not the OP) is a shining example of that for the reasons I've highlighte earlier!

Believe me, I'm under no illusions about how difficult and frustrating it can be to access services - my battle to get my son's needs met has been no easier than anyone elses (but the way I fought it probably has been) - but i do think it's a two way street, and if i'm honest I've met many more parents who I feel have limited their child's potential by exempting their child from the usual expectations than i have professionals who have deliberately and wilfully tried to deny access to children with genuine needs. And I don't think that's 'luck' or 'limited experience' - in fact it is something that is regularly commented on on these boards but only in regard to the parents of those horrible, bullying, spiteful, nasty NT children.

If an NT child is a hateful, spiteful, aggressive. bullying little sssssss so and so that'll be mum and dads fault. If an autistic child is hateful spiteful, aggressive, bullying little so and so that will be 'because he's autistic' and could not possibly have anything to do with ineffective parenting - because of course you don't get ineffectively parented autistic kids, do you? I'm not suggesting that ineffective parenting will always be the case in either disabled or non-disabled children, (and I'm certainly not pointing any fingers at anyone, so please justine 1 or anyone else don't think I am)but there seems to be a blank refusal to accept even the possibility in the former case, and that's completely unrealistic.

I think every child deserves the best they can get. If a disabled child is having his life made a misery by a non-disabled child then everything should be done to stop that. But I believe equally that if a disabled child is making a non-disabled child's life a misery the same rule applies. Essentially, I think i have very different ideas to many parents (of disabled and non-disabled children) of what the 'reasonable' in 'reasonable adjustment' means. I guess I believe in 'equality' not patronisation, I believe in understanding and acceptance of disability rather than the enabling and promotion (in the sense of lowered expectations - not in the sense of highlighting and raising awareness of, which of course, I'm fully in favour of) of it.

My son's best friend asked me a week or so ago whether autism makes people violent. I asked him to think about my son, my 21 year old nephew, and all of the other autistic people he's met through his association with Ben and whether he thought they were violent. He answered no. I asked him why he asked, and he said there's a kid in his (mainstream secondary) class at school who lashes out every time somebody disagrees with him and then when challenged will say 'I can't help it - I'm autistic...' Where on earth does a 13yr old boy get a crazy idea like that from? And what sort of adult will he grow up to be? :blink:

 

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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BD, I certainly agree with some of the points in your first post, just as I've always done...

 

However, this is where we definitely part company:

 

I don't think 'the forum' (i.e. the mods and administrators) is perpetuating the opinion that the system is always at fault, but i believe collective opinion of the members often does, and i think the thread that gave rise to this one (but not the OP) is a shining example of that for the reasons I've highlighte earlier!

Believe me, I'm under no illusions about how difficult and frustrating it can be to access services - my battle to get my son's needs met has been no easier than anyone elses (but the way I fought it probably has been) -

 

In Justine's thread she described a course of action her school had adopted with her child. You posted your opinion...all well and good. Then several others of us, in a very restrained and factual way, just highlighted to Justine that what the school was doing was in fact illegal together with links to the government guidance on this issue. I believe she has every right to know that what the school is doing is illegal so that she can make up her own mind about what she wants to do.

 

You then posted at length about this apparent 'culture of blame' on the forum and the bias against the system. In no way do I see or agree that all the other posts in Justine's thread apart from your own were perpetuating a culture of blame or in some way attempting to undermine Justine's relationship with her child's school! We were giving her the legal facts of her situation.

 

As far as your battle for Ben, I'm sure no-one would say that you haven't had to fight just as much as the rest of us. The way in which you have chosen to do so is your prerogative. But you seem to have generalised the way other parents have chosen to fight, especially as many of us have found ourselves in crisis situations where we really didn't have any choice about how we fought.

 

For the record, I tried to work with all the agencies involved with my son, especially the schools. I made sure that I always sent 'thank you' cards to the individuals who really helped him. But that doesn't alter the fact that he was badly let down by the education system, a fact which was acknowledged by both the LA EP and the HT of his mainstream school. If this wasn't still happening regularly to large numbers of other children with ASD, IPSEA et al wouldn't be successfully taking LAs to court, would they?!

 

Thank you again to everyone who has replied to this thread...I think it's very valuable to discuss this idea of a forum 'culture of blame' openly.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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If there wasn't a slight bias, reflecting unhappiness it would be far harder to get our way in the system. The bias isn't necessarily damaging, its on the same level as the necessity to bemoan councils and the police, under the banner of what we should be entitled to/not entitled to.

Every time I return to this forum there is always some sort of battle about this sort of thing.

 

Maybe I am wrong.

Edited by CEJesson

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Furthermore I've got to the point where I know the difficulties within the system and I no longer want to repeat saying them online. I now just skirt past these bits and read the information that is fresh, innovative and just as relevant.

 

Most of us are in a welfare point of view one way or another - some as parents, others as welfare professionals.

Edited by CEJesson

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BD, I certainly agree with some of the points in your first post, just as I've always done...

 

However, this is where we definitely part company:

 

 

 

In Justine's thread she described a course of action her school had adopted with her child. You posted your opinion...all well and good. Then several others of us, in a very restrained and factual way, just highlighted to Justine that what the school was doing was in fact illegal together with links to the government guidance on this issue. I believe she has every right to know that what the school is doing is illegal so that she can make up her own mind about what she wants to do.

 

You then posted at length about this apparent 'culture of blame' on the forum and the bias against the system. In no way do I see or agree that all the other posts in Justine's thread apart from your own were perpetuating a culture of blame or in some way attempting to undermine Justine's relationship with her child's school! We were giving her the legal facts of her situation.

 

 

Bid :)

 

Well that's one very selective way of looking at the other thread, true...

let's try another way:

 

I was the first to reply to the OP offering a very reasoned and reasonable reply to the OP based on the info she had given, where the school had suggested morning attendance only and the OP had agreed with the school that this seemed a good solution and that the school generally seemed to be doing a good job...

 

The next post suggested that the schools action was 'illegal exclusion' despite the word exclusion not being mentioned and that the course of action proposed by the school met with the parent's approval. It then went on to theorise about what this might mean and recounted another members story where another school had enacted a similar 'illegal exclusion' and then (allegedly) lied about the circumstances of that exclusion after the event.

 

I responded to that post, agreeing with some of the suggestions like asking for all the details to be provided in writing etc etc but expressed some disappointment that the schools actions seemed to be being interpreted as sinister and underhand, and that i felt this was representative of many posts on the forum. i was quite clear that this was a geberal observation and should not be interpreted as a comment on either the OP or the member who seemed to be suggesting that the school's motives might be less than honest .

 

The Next post was one that asked other members for their opinion on my opinions! :shame::lol:

 

That was then followed with another post offering a perspective I had not considered, which in turn was followed by a further post from me acknowledging that fact and apologising!

 

The next post started talking about parents being 'forced into colluding' with illegal exclusions, and parents being 'blamed for not cooperating' when having to 'insist that schools behave legally'...

 

After I answered that very reasonably and logically (I thought?) [oh, and BTW - while it is true that you didn't actually use the words 'collusion' and 'force' yourself you did post this:

 

Absolutely spot on :notworthy::notworthy:

 

Bid :)

 

underneath them, which i sort of thought implied agreement :whistle: ]

 

I found myself being told that my post 'implied a criticism of the OP and all who had given balanced and sensible advice in response' :o:blink:

 

But of course, it would be ridiculous to suggest there was any bias to the above, wouldn't it?

 

On the plus side, I did admire the honesty of a 'rallying call' for a group response to an individual poster's opinion being posted directly online. Often these things are done via PM's behind the scenes, which I've always felt to be very, very unreasonable.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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On the plus side, I did admire the honesty of a 'rallying call' for a group response to an individual poster's opinion being posted directly online. Often these things are done via PM's behind the scenes, which I've always felt to be very, very unreasonable.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

You've completely lost me now??

 

I just started a new thread because in the past the mods have suggested this is the best thing if you want to start a new discussion within a thread which might derail the OP's original question.

 

Bid :unsure:

 

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I recently had an interesting conversation with one of the senior management team at the residential special school where I work.

 

He was saying that very often with new parents he finds that at the first meeting all they want to do is talk and talk, because they feel that no-one has listened to them for years. He was extremely understanding about the emotional impact of fighting for your child's needs on top of living with their disability.

 

Bid :)

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Well ...., I fought for provision, :ninja: ...battled :ninja: , for a specialist place and have had many disagreements :angry: with proffessionals over the years,

 

 

.......................................have to say though I agree with Baddad regarding the original thread , and can,t believe how it has spectacularly de-railed and ended up here in another sperate thread that we can all pool over and argue about...oh joy :wallbash: ...

 

p.s. are you enjoying my imaginative use of emoticons :shame:

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I've never thought there was a culture of blame here. Everyone needs to let off steam when they are under pressure. Sometimes criticism of the authorities is entirely justified, sometimes it isn't. Hard to judge when you are only reading someone's perception of a situation.

 

I hardly post these days though because I feel I have to weigh every word or else I'll get shot down in flames. I take so long covering every angle & checking for flaws in my post that I usually end up deleting it. Also, its just not much fun here any more. Thats no criticism of those posting needing help - I've done that often enough myself - but we used to be able to have a laugh too. That seems pretty rare now to me. (Although I'm rather enjoying the venison thread :D )

 

Just my opinion - I'm not getting into any arguments with anyone.

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Well ...., I fought for provision, :ninja: ...battled :ninja: , for a specialist place and have had many disagreements :angry: with proffessionals over the years,

 

 

.......................................have to say though I agree with Baddad regarding the original thread , and can,t believe how it has spectacularly de-railed and ended up here in another sperate thread that we can all pool over and argue about...oh joy :wallbash: ...

 

p.s. are you enjoying my imaginative use of emoticons :shame:

 

I'm lovin' your imaginative use of emoticons! :thumbs:

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but we used to be able to have a laugh too.

 

Ahhh... we used to have this thing called the Batcave... and we'd have caption competitions and orl sorts...

ahh... halcyon days, halcyon days...

Boy - some of us used to be sooooo busy with that sort of rubbbish that we hardly ever looked at thr forum at all! :whistle:

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

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Well ...., I fought for provision, :ninja: ...battled :ninja: , for a specialist place and have had many disagreements :angry: with proffessionals over the years,

 

 

.......................................have to say though I agree with Baddad regarding the original thread , and can,t believe how it has spectacularly de-railed and ended up here in another sperate thread that we can all pool over and argue about...oh joy :wallbash: ...

 

p.s. are you enjoying my imaginative use of emoticons :shame:

 

Justine's thread hasn't been derailed at all, if you go and read it over in Education!

 

That was the whole point of starting a new thread.

 

I thought BD's comments about there being a culture of blame on this forum to be pretty significant, and thought it would make an interesting discussion in it's own right.

 

Anyway, thanks for some interesting comments peeps.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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Slightly late to this thread but here goes!

 

Do I feel there's a culture of blame on the forum? The short answer is no. Others have already made the obvious point that on a forum offering support, one would expect negative situations and emotions to dominate. The Education forum has a high proportion overall as it is often a difficult school related situation which has prompted someone to seek help in the first place. Naturally there will be fewer posts about positive experiences - people tend not to join support forums just to say how well they're doing, and people who do share positive news often do so because they've posted previously to ask for support. This forum is a safety valve for many in difficult situations where they can give vent to feelings that they wouldn't necessarily express in public. If people can't rant here occasionally, or if they feel that they are afraid to post truthfully, what's the point of the forum at all.

 

Going back to the thread from which this arose - I used the words force and collude which baddad has used to demonstrate that there is bias against the system. OK holding my hands up: I think collude was not an appropriate word to use - I should have said comply. However force was appropriate in the context - which was a comment about exclusions generally.

 

Looking at the following quote which I think refers to a comment of mine as well:

 

The next post suggested that the schools action was 'illegal exclusion' despite the word exclusion not being mentioned and that the course of action proposed by the school met with the parent's approval

 

Baddad- sorry - you really are missing the point here. :wallbash: This action is considered to be an illegal exclusion - that's what the official guidance says, and that's not not my or anyone else's opinion, and the parent's approval -or otherwise- is irrelevant. (Please give me some credit, I really do know what I'm talking about here!). You seem to be reading all kinds of things into the mere statement of that fact, including incitement to declare war on the school.

 

then to undermine that act of cooperation and mutual support and flexibility (and with it probably the entire relationship between school/home and/or child/school - and lets face it there's plenty of evidence of those sorts of situations already on the boards) is, IMO a bias. And an irresponsible one at that! It draws a line between school home where each sees the other as the enemy and actually erodes the channels of communication rather than improving them.

 

You suggest, BD, that the positive situation described in the the original thread was undermined by subsequent posts - we seem to be reading different OP's? Justine appears to me to be discussing a fairly negative situation to begin with and one in which the situation seems to be slowly deteriorating with no end in sight. Once again, I fail to see how pointing out what the law and guidance says, something which people regularly do on the forum, "undermines the relationship between home and school"?. As Justine has stated, she is perfectly capable of weighing up all the information and deciding herself how to approach the school.

 

Is that what 'IPSEA' and ACE intend?

 

Is this a rhetorical question? Look at the parents' resources on both websites - ALL the advice begins by emphasising that the first step in any potentially difficult situation should always be to talk to the school and try and resolve things informally and at the lowest level e.g with the class teacher. However, underpinning this advice there is always clear information on the law and guidance concerning the government/LA/school's responsibilities and the parent's/child's rights. Informal resolution and knowing one's legal rights are not mutually exclusive.

 

K x

Edited by Kathryn

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Justine's thread hasn't been derailed at all, if you go and read it over in Education!

 

That was the whole point of starting a new thread.

 

I thought BD's comments about there being a culture of blame on this forum to be pretty significant, and thought it would make an interesting discussion in it's own right.

 

Anyway, thanks for some interesting comments peeps.

 

Bid :)

 

 

 

You know what I,m just disappointed, I,ll be shot down in flames for this but here goes... I,ve been a member on here long enough now to have seen "discussions" like this before, it seems the basis of this thread was aimed at Baddad in particular ...the original thread seemed to me just a difference of opinion but quickly those differing opinions became another thread......and again I,m left feeling that people on here just like to disagree with each other and score points off each other...it isn,t pleasant to watch/read...in which case I,m off this thread. :ph34r:

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You know what I,m just disappointed, I,ll be shot down in flames for this but here goes... I,ve been a member on here long enough now to have seen "discussions" like this before, it seems the basis of this thread was aimed at Baddad in particular ...the original thread seemed to me just a difference of opinion but quickly those differing opinions became another thread......and again I,m left feeling that people on here just like to disagree with each other and score points off each other...it isn,t pleasant to watch/read...in which case I,m off this thread. :ph34r:

 

Suze, I'm not shooting you down in flames at all, but if anyone makes a significant comment on an open forum it's perfectly fair for others to discuss that comment openly.

 

I think if you re-read this thread you'll see that there haven't been any personal attacks against BD at all. He made what I feel was a pretty emotive comment about the forum, I asked what other members thought, and there has been a selection of replies, some disagreeing, some agreeing in part and some in complete agreement.

 

That, in my view, is a fundamental function of a forum...to discuss issues in a polite manner??

 

Bid :)

 

 

 

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I've never thought there was a culture of blame here. Everyone needs to let off steam when they are under pressure. Sometimes criticism of the authorities is entirely justified, sometimes it isn't. Hard to judge when you are only reading someone's perception of a situation.

 

I hardly post these days though because I feel I have to weigh every word or else I'll get shot down in flames. I take so long covering every angle & checking for flaws in my post that I usually end up deleting it. Also, its just not much fun here any more. Thats no criticism of those posting needing help - I've done that often enough myself - but we used to be able to have a laugh too. That seems pretty rare now to me. (Although I'm rather enjoying the venison thread :D )

 

Just my opinion - I'm not getting into any arguments with anyone.

 

Hi pearl. that's sort of what happened to me.

I used to post here a lot, then I had a lot of things go very badly pear-shaped in real life (not linked to my son), bad stuff at work and other nasties crawling out of the woodwork.

I couldn't be positive enough to post here, as a teacher or as a parent and rather than be unhelpful or paranoid I just stopped. It seemed a better choice than any of the others, although I'm delighted Baddad and pearl have more backbone. :thumbs:

 

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I've only recently returned to looking at posts on this forum after some years' absence, so maybe I can add an outsider's view. I personally don't think from the recent posts I've read that there is a culture of blame on the forum. I think that the management of any forum will set its direction and feel and that anybody searching for on-line support will find a home with a forum which suits their style of communication and working and will leave those where they feel uncomfortable or unable to relate to others’ experiences, support or advice. You can't please all the people all the time, so just create a niche working with your strengths and experience.

 

For me, this forum's strength is how it supports using the statutory processes that are supposed to underpin the services which we receive. It's a safety net, which in cases where things seem to be going well, says I really do trust you and thank you for all you've done, but I want to do this one by the book. I think that sometimes this is taken as a criticism of schools, medical profession or what ever. I don't think it is; I think it's just a sensible belt and braces approach, just in case the situation has been misread, and all is not going quite as well as the parent might think. I think the advice should be neither trust nor distrust, just ensure things are done properly. If utilised properly this method shouldn't undermine any relationships or understanding between parents and professionals. However, we are all human and sometimes this approach is seen as threatening and unsupportive by the Professionals on the receiving end.

 

I think there is a dilemma in responding to any post as to exactly what you say:-

1. Do you just answer any questions specifically asked?

2. Do you read between the lines and answer what you think may be behind the question but not specifically stated?

3. Does the post sound warning bells to you, and do you want to suggest some element of caution or a more formal approach?

4. If so, how do you give this information?

 

Based on my own personal experience, I would have wanted any potential problems that I was over looking pointed out to me. It would then be up to me to decide what I wanted to do with that information. As a parent who is on the spectrum herself, I was at times too trusting and socially naive and at times thought I was being supported and helped when I wasn’t, and as such left myself wide open to problems and delaying tactics. It was only when I adopted a belt and braces approach with the full understanding of my Champions within the system; that many of my child’s problems started to be understood and resolved. Those Professionals who backed me, found my belt and braces approach also helped them. I just made sure that I spoke to them about what I was doing and ensured their understanding of why I felt the need to take the action I did. It did not sour any good relationships I built up. It strengthened them as they were still built upon mutual honesty and understanding. This forum taught me to do that.

Edited by Tez

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Well, it's lovely to see you again Bard!

 

Bid

 

I second that. I've missed you so much >:D<<'>

 

And I'll third it!! :thumbs::thumbs:

Hope those crawling nasties have gone now (or at the very least significantly retreated) and that we'll be seeing more of you from now on. >:D<<'>

 

Suze - thanks for your post >:D<<'>

I'm gonna take your good advice

 

in which case I,m off this thread

 

and do the same thing

 

 

Dinna worry though, folks - I'm sure I'll pop my head above a parapet again somewhere on the forum soon so keep that rotting veg handy! :lol: (It makes very nice soup, btw - which is, if i'm honest the only reason I do it :devil: )

 

Kathryn: Thank you for acknowledging the inappropriateness of 'collusion'. We'll agree to differ on 'force' and all of the other points I've raised that seem to have been pushed aside or ignored. I just hope that all concerned with the 'legalities' will be similarly pedantic when it's a parent whose on the receiving end...

 

TTFN

 

BD :D

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Just thought I would put my tie in the water on this one, A lot has been said I I feel that in general terms I would support the views expressed by DB. I would qualify that by saying that I have not read everything that BD has posted on every topic so I dare say we have some diferentes of opinion.

 

I have been on both side of the fence and I know, in general terms, that every one is doing all they can for every child and adult the come into contact with. Some time this is simple not enough, it not a case off not wanting to help, but there is no help there to give.

We have to remember that there is only so much to go round and if one person gets more then someone else gets less.

The size of the pot is down to politics which those on the coalface have very little control over.

 

That does not mean that I don't want as much as I can get, am entitled to.

 

There have been a few times when I have posted what I thought of as good news only for replies to see negatives in it.

I would say that at time there seem to be a culture (Not just on this forum) of looking for the dark side, but maybe It is my optimistic nature that I always look on the bright side of life.

 

I would say that in my opinion, Low expectations of children by their parent is a factor. It goes a long way to explain some of the behaviors I see at work, I'm talking about people in their 40s who's parent never expected anything of them as children and adults so got none.

 

Having gone completely off topic with my ramblings, I will say goodnight..

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seems like there are quite a few people disenchanted with the "same old" atmosphere. Can't we just close this thread?

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seems like there are quite a few people disenchanted with the "same old" atmosphere. Can't we just close this thread?

 

To be fair Chris, I think maybe 2 or 3 people have expressed displeasure with this thread! The others (10 or so?) have taken trouble to contribute thoughtful posts, trying to explore my original question.

 

Mumble: I was really interested in your comments about the dynamics of the posting process, and I hadn't thought about it in those terms before so thank you for that :)

 

Tez: I think like you I suffered from having AS myself, especially early on in the process of getting the right support for my son. I wonder if parents who maybe have a background in the commercial world find it easier to pick their way through the system? Maybe they are less naive perhaps?

 

Thanks to everyone else who has contributed to exploring this issue.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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Having gone completely off topic with my ramblings, I will say goodnight..

 

Going to bed in the middle of the afternoon, are you working shifts or something!

 

As to do with the parents expecting low expectations it may well be down to that parent didnt have thier educational needs met either, maybe undx learning difficulties, they cant read or write, maybe that they cant even access a computer or attend a college to enhance thier own expectations, it is not nessasarily the fault of that parent, it can still come down to the fact it is a few decades where needs where not met.

 

JsMumxxx

 

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Bard, it's great to see you! I've oft wondered how you were :) Hope life is a bit more on an even keel now.

 

I agree absolutely with Tez's point below:

 

For me, this forum's strength is how it supports using the statutory processes that are supposed to underpin the services which we receive. It's a safety net, which in cases where things seem to be going well, says I really do trust you and thank you for all you've done, but I want to do this one by the book. I think that sometimes this is taken as a criticism of schools, medical profession or what ever. I don't think it is; I think it's just a sensible belt and braces approach, just in case the situation has been misread, and all is not going quite as well as the parent might think. I think the advice should be neither trust nor distrust, just ensure things are done properly. If utilised properly this method shouldn't undermine any relationships or understanding between parents and professionals. However, we are all human and sometimes this approach is seen as threatening and unsupportive by the Professionals on the receiving end.

 

Kathryn: Thank you for acknowledging the inappropriateness of 'collusion'. We'll agree to differ on 'force' and all of the other points I've raised that seem to have been pushed aside or ignored. I just hope that all concerned with the 'legalities' will be similarly pedantic when it's a parent whose on the receiving end...

 

Ouch - I'll ignore the personal jibe. Not aware which points you feel I've ignored -I actually thought I'd spent an overlong time answering your points and clarifying what I meant. You seem to be wilfully misunderstanding and ignoring just about everything I've said on this thread and the other one regarding this issue- so I'm out of here because I simply can't say what I've said any other way!

 

I think most parents here would be are profoundly grateful for "legalities" - the legal processes have got many children - including yours - a better school experience and the education they're entitled to. And no doubt there are quite a few pedants who've helped you and others negotiate the system along the way.

 

As I said, I'm out of this thread now - for my own sanity. This issue has already taken up a disproportionate amount of my weekend and I'm getting a :wallbash::wallbash: feeling which will only increase further!

 

K x

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