Is there a 'culture of blame' on the forum?

[baddad]

Ouch - I'll ignore the personal jibe. Not aware which points you feel I've ignored -I actually thought I'd spent an overlong time answering your points and clarifying what I meant. You seem to be wilfully misunderstanding and ignoring just about everything I've said on this thread and the other one regarding this issue- so I'm out of here because I simply can't say what I've said any other way!

 

I think most parents here would be are profoundly grateful for "legalities" - the legal processes have got many children - including yours - a better school experience and the education they're entitled to. And no doubt there are quite a few pedants who've helped you and others negotiate the system along the way.

 

As I said, I'm out of this thread now - for my own sanity. This issue has already taken up a disproportionate amount of my weekend and I'm getting a feeling which will only increase further!

 

K x

 

 

I'm sorry, I had intended bowing out of this but what personal jibe?

If you mean me saying we'll agree to differ on the other points I raised that have been pushed aside/ignored I'm at a loss to understand why you think that's a personal jibe(?) And i totally agree about the benefits of 'legalities' - when have i said I disagreed? What I pointed out - in this thread and the previous one - is that how those legalities are viewed (i.e. depending on who) seems very prescriptive. We had a school and a mum seemingly working together and happy to be doing so. I hope, after all the legal ramifications have been ironed out that situation remains. I think it will, because the OP seems determined that it will, but - boy - if working with a school is indicative of 'unreasonable force' then i think we're all up a certain creek without a manner of propulsion.

 

L&P

 

BD

[call me jaded]

I find this particlar forum a lot less embattled than the other one I used to post on, where warrior mums are cheered on. It made me uncomfortable and I had to leave. The flavour here is much more informative.

 

Let's not forget the whole SEN system is adversarial. You can try to negotiate with an LA but the ultimate resolution is to go to tribunal. There are some LAs that 'bank' on that. And you'd be amazed at how different schools in the same LA are.

 

I've always thought I was lucky to get the HT we had at our primary school. His school completely failed to meet the needs of my DS but it was the best option available and between us we got him where he needed to be for secondary. Do I blame anyone for that? Well, yes, the LA were happy to leave both the school and me without support. We gathered enough evidence to blast them out of the water at tribunal and they completely rolled over way before we got that far. They knew what they should be doing but we had to allow my son to fail. It's not a healthy situation to force on a family (we were at breaking point) and I'm quite incredulous that anyone thinks the LA wasn't to blame. The word I would use is responsibilty or obligation, however. Blame is too emotive a word for me.

 

There is a system, they didn't follow it. I am thankful I knew what the system was and pass that knowledge on to others. You will never be able to prevent people from 'using' the system, but they're a minority IME.

[chris54]

Having gone completely off topic with my ramblings, I will say goodnight..

 

Going to bed in the middle of the afternoon, are you working shifts or something!

 

As to do with the parents expecting low expectations it may well be down to that parent didnt have thier educational needs met either, maybe undx learning difficulties, they cant read or write, maybe that they cant even access a computer or attend a college to enhance thier own expectations, it is not nessasarily the fault of that parent, it can still come down to the fact it is a few decades where needs where not met.

 

JsMumxxx

 

Yes I work nights, which leaves my not knowing which day of the week it is or which end of the day I'm at.

 

I make not judgement as to why, only that it happened and I see the consequence of it. The point I was making is that if a parent has a low expectation of a child any child, that will have a long lasting impact on that child's life.

 

I know that things are not as good as they could be or as we would like them but they are better now than they have ever been, taking the long view that is, Ups and down but a steady improvement.

 

When I was my sons age we had 47 children in the class,I know it was 47 as the register was taken by us each calling out our number, and there were no such thing as classroom assistants.

The only sens was a special school and only the very few went there.

Now my parent did not think this to bad, When my dad was at the same school, on days when the whole class turned up there were not enough chairs to go round.

Back then if a child didn't learn it was their own fault. Now its the systems fault?

 

But then when I left school having little or no education(not being able to read or write) was not a bar to getting employment, a different world than today.

 

And I'm doing it again, as I should be working right now I had better sign off and get on with something.

Edited January 25, 2010 by chris54

[chris54]

As to do with the parents expecting low expectations it may well be down to that parent didnt have thier educational needs met either, maybe undx learning difficulties, they cant read or write, maybe that they cant even access a computer or attend a college to enhance thier own expectations, it is not nessasarily the fault of that parent, it can still come down to the fact it is a few decades where needs where not met.

Now I don't want you to think that I am having a go at the poster of the above (Sorry JsMum) but it illustrates the very thing that we are talking about. Blaming someone for our own failings. Or in this case a parents possible lack of education for there parenting technic. Maybe a factor or not. As it happens, the parents in one case are skilfully professional people.

 

And if we should ever question a parent ability to parent, well just don't go there.

 

I have in the past been in a position were my opinion has been sort on that very thing, that my opinion may influence if a child is taken into care. That is a heavy burden to carry, and then you get the blame.

[Imposter]

If there is it's your fault.

 

 

 

[cmuir]

When I was my sons age we had 47 children in the class,I know it was 47 as the register was taken by us each calling out our number, and there were no such thing as classroom assistants.

The only sens was a special school and only the very few went there.

Now my parent did not think this to bad, When my dad was at the same school, on days when the whole class turned up there were not enough chairs to go round.

Back then if a child didn't learn it was their own fault. Now its the systems fault?

 

But then when I left school having little or no education(not being able to read or write) was not a bar to getting employment, a different world than today.

 

 

Hi

 

Good point. One could go further and say that children that were on the spectrum (or indeed any other child with SEN) would have been sent away to an asylum) some 40-50 years ago plus. At the time, that was what was expected or was 'the done thing'. I think we're living in a progressive world whereby people have gained a great deal of knowledge (take operations, ie heart surgery, laser surgery, etc). As a result people's expectations have risen. I guess, what may have been acceptable 40 years ago, may longer be acceptable now because of that.

 

Caroline.

[Karen A]

I have not read through this as I really don't feel it would help me at all.

But I just wanted to say hi bard and pearl......I miss you. <'> <'> <'> <'> <'>

Karen.

[pearl]

Hi KarenA - I'm still here - just not posting much <'>

[Sally44]

The OP this was moved from was from a parent who appeared to be questionning the situation she found herself and her child in ie. part time education. That may, or may not be useful FOR THE CHILD or not. And that is also a major issue. Is it for the benefit of the child or the SCHOOL??

Even if it is for the benefit of the child, it was still illegal. But a parent/school may agree to 'overlook' that in the short term. But sometimes something short term can become permanent if a parent does not know their child's educational rights. I think all parents need to be informed. There is nothing to be gained from ignorance. You can only be taken advantage of from that position.

 

I am not naive enough to believe that SEN provision is going to fall into place. Everything costs money. Every department runs on a budget. Statements cost LEAs additional money on top of any delegated funding they give to schools. When I met the Head of commissioning at our LEA she fully admitted that increased funding for children with ASD would mean cuts in other areas.

 

Yes parents do keep their children off school. Prior to a diagnosis I considered it because of the trauma it was causing my child, his sibling and me every morning. I have a very good idea of when any of my children are trying to get out of school. This was nothing like that. His distress was awful to watch. I had to strap him into a childrens push chair and take him into school. He refused to walk and I couldn't carry him. The school themselves asked for outside professionals to go in. The diagnosis took ages, the statement took as long. In all about 3 years of this before he was in a 'better' place. The needs of other children with obvious difficulties seem to be met easier because they are visible. Many of our childrens difficulties cannot be seen and are overlooked, not diagnosed etc.

 

Is there a bias. Probably yes. Because many of the parents on this forum are at their wits end.

Do LEAs lie and threaten - yes they do.

Are LEA professionals pressured by their employer - yes they are.

 

Is that the majority of professionals? I don't know. I only know my experience. When the Autism Advisory Teacher phoned me on her mobile from inside a cupboard because she did not want her colleagues to hear what she said to me, I think that explains the situation within my LEA! She broke ranks and wrote an addendum to her report which she sent to me. The EP also said verballyon the phone that my son needed to be placed in an autism unit. I asked if she had said that to the SEN inclusion officer, which she said she had. I asked her why she did not say that in her report. She said she had all but said that, and that they are not allowed to make recommendations about actual placements. I asked her how she felt when her professional opinions were ignored by her imployer. She did not answer.

 

Throughout the SEN educational process there is a conflict of interest. I don't assume anything now. I know which professionals I have respect for and which ones I don't. I understand their difficult situation. So I get everything in writing and I go by the book. I don't believe a word I am told unless it is in writing. That is mainly because I don't want to waste my time believing that something is going to happen (because the school/EP promised it) when it isn't.

 

From a parents point of view you can feel that you have lost years of valuable time when your child might have been receiving support that helped them progress. I was fobbed off by the nursery owner, and the GP. The GP said that if my son did have difficulties that the school would pick them up. Obviously he could not have heard of Early Years Input. That would have made a difference. My son should have been picked up and diagnosed around age 3. He wasn't.

 

It isn't easy for schools. My daughter still goes to the school my son was moved from. It is a good school for bright NT children. But the school could not meet his needs, and ultimately did not want to. Not just because they did not want ASD children, but because they felt the LEA was forcing schools to keep ASD children mainstream, when they did not feel that was in the best interests of the children. But mainstream schools cannot say that. They have to toe the LEAs or government line.

[Sally44]

In another of my own posts I said that I wanted "the EP to do her job". This wasn't a quote from me. This was what the ACE advisor said when I explained my son's positon. The EP had asked me "what do you want". I felt that was totally inappropriate. It isn't about what I want. It is about professionals knowing what a child needs and meet that need. If the school feels there is no need the EP is not even in the picture. If a school take that position it does make it very difficult for a parent to prove their child is not making progress or has needs that are not being met. It is rather like the story of the king with no clothes with the LEA/School saying everything is in place or is fine, when it is not.

[call me jaded]

Lovely posts Sally.

 

Personally I like the EP question, what do you want? It means they're not going to oppose what you ask for.

[chris54]

Hi

 

Good point. One could go further and say that children that were on the spectrum (or indeed any other child with SEN) would have been sent away to an asylum) some 40-50 years ago plus. At the time, that was what was expected or was 'the done thing'. I think we're living in a progressive world whereby people have gained a great deal of knowledge (take operations, ie heart surgery, laser surgery, etc). As a result people's expectations have risen. I guess, what may have been acceptable 40 years ago, may longer be acceptable now because of that.

 

Caroline.

Now I'm feeling old, Its only 50 years ago that I started school.

 

Now back to the opening post which posed the question 'Is there a "culture of blame" on the forum?'

I would say that it is no different to what we find in the community as a whole. We all want someone to blame, me included.

[Karen A]

Hi KarenA - I'm still here - just not posting much <'>

 

<'> <'> <'> <'> <'>

It is so good to see you.

It is a very strange thing.I was not on Forum yesterday but part way through the day I suddenly realised I hadn't seen you around for a while.

I think it was when I was wondering if anyone here might have an idea for how to convert an ordinary sports bra into a racer back bras to stop the straps falling down.

How off topic is that.

 

[baddad]

In another of my own posts I said that I wanted "the EP to do her job". This wasn't a quote from me. This was what the ACE advisor said when I explained my son's positon.

 

 

Hi sally -

 

again, with the best will in the world, and in no way saying that you are 'wrong' about your child etc etc etc I find this really worrying.

What you are describing is a professional advisor telling you that another professional - the ed psych - isn't doing her job properly. There can be no other interpretation of 'you just want the EP to do her job' than 'the EP isn't doing her job.

At the very least that has to be unprofessional - someone consulted to advise on a dispute 'taking sides' and making judgements about the working practices of a specialist trained in a field that (presumably?) the mediator isn't specialised in.

At worst - depending on how he/she arrived at this conclusion (Through first hand observation? Through documented evidence? Or purely based on the opinion of one party who, by definition has an extreme bias) - it sounds like possible slander(?)

I could understand this more if it was offered in the way of a 'counselling technique' - to offer reassurance etc: something along the lines of 'You just want her to do her job which you don't think she is currently doing', but that can't be the case because you've already made the distinction that these are the ACE advisor's feelings being expressed and not your own (the latter being the case in the first scenario I responded to).

Again, please don't misunderstand - I am not in any way commenting or making judgements about the rights or wrongs on any side in your disagreement about your son's schooling - I couldn't possibly know...

And again, without any sort of personal observation whatsoever the situation you've detailed is a fairly accurate representation of a point I made in the other thread about legality when I said that i hoped people considered it should 'work both ways'. I genuinely feel that if an ed psych is being criticised in this way by an ACE advisor then the ACE advisor should be brought to task over it. (and would believe equally that that should be the case if the reverse situation was being described.) I can't see any way that anyone who has argued for rigid pursuit of 'the letter of the law' in a mutually cooperative situation can have any other possible opinion regarding a protracted uncooperative one. (?)

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited January 25, 2010 by baddad

[Karen A]

I thought that nobody was happy with the current system with regard to SEN.

 

http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/lambinquiry/downloa...Information.pdf

 

Look no further than 1:1 from the expert.

Professionals,parents and the DFES all recognise that the system not working and that it does not help parents or children.

So no wonder there are complaints about the system....

 

and of course parents will come here complaining.

The current system depends on LAs assessing need and putting provision in place.

With the current desperate financial situation in this country this system can only cause major difficulties.

I have it on excellent authority that regardless of which party wins the next election things will get much worse before they get better.

Even the best professionals and politicians blame each other because their main aim is to keep their own job.

 

Sorry to disappoint anyone here who thinks that anyone is really motivated purely by a wish to serve others and to take all responsibility.

 

I decided to turn the car round outside of a police station yesterday and to drive past the window the wrong way down a one way street.

When a police man came out and threatened to take my license I did not just say.....oh yes just take it......I blamed those people who had taken all of the parking spaces attending a local boxing match.

Alright I admit I was so upset he ended up offering to help me reverse.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Karen A

[Sally44]

Hi sally -

 

again, with the best will in the world, and in no way saying that you are 'wrong' about your child etc etc etc I find this really worrying.

What you are describing is a professional advisor telling you that another professional - the ed psych - isn't doing her job properly. There can be no other interpretation of 'you just want the EP to do her job' than 'the EP isn't doing her job.

At the very least that has to be unprofessional - someone consulted to mediate on a dispute 'taking sides' and making judgements about the working practices of a specialist trained in a field that (presumably?) the mediator isn't specialised in.

At worst - depending on how he/she arrived at this conclusion (Through first hand observation? Through documented evidence? Or purely based on the opinion of one party who, by definition has an extreme bias) - it sounds like possible slander(?)

I could understand this more if it was offered in the way of a 'counselling technique' - to offer reassurance etc: something along the lines of 'You just want her to do her job which you don't think she is currently doing', but that can't be the case because you've already made the distinction that these are the ACE advisor's feelings being expressed and not your own (the latter being the case in the first scenario I responded to).

Again, please don't misunderstand - I am not in any way commenting or making judgements about the rights or wrongs on any side in your disagreement about your son's schooling - I couldn't possibly know...

And again, without any sort of personal observation whatsoever the situation you've detailed is a fairly accurate representation of a point I made in the other thread about legality when I said that i hoped people considered it should 'work both ways'. I genuinely feel that if an ed psych is being criticised in this way by an ACE advisor then the ACE advisor should be brought to task over it. (and would believe equally that that should be the case if the reverse situation was being described.) I can't see any way that anyone who has argued for rigid pursuit of 'the letter of the law' in a mutually cooperative situation can have any other possible opinion regarding a protracted uncooperative one. (?)

 

L&P

 

BD

 

 

If the SEN process, and those involved in it was running as per the CoP, then we could shut down the NAS, IPSEA and ACE educatonal helplines and parents could stop spending endless hours reading and researching and spending their own money on assessments and therapies etc.

I'm sorry that I don't understand how a child can be described as making good and accelerated progress when after 4 years he attains a lower score in literacy assessments. What has he been doing in school for the past 4 years? Why is school okay with this and more importantly why is an Educatonal Psychologist okay with this. She cannot explain to me her position on this other than to criticise me for "harking back to the past". Schools are supposed to be places of learning. Phonics is not the only way to learn. My son is an absolute classic example of a child that is not learning with phonics. Yet the qualified EP does not see this when I have it in writing.

The actual conversation I had with the ACE advisor was that I was absolutely astounded that the EP said she "did not understand what I wanted her to do", and I said "I want her to .... (and the ACE advisor finished off the sentence) ........ do her job." I think I at least deserve a written explanation from the EP as to why she believes we are using the right approaches. She appears to believe that his academic performance is 'typical' of a child on the spectrum.

And yes I don't really have much faith in her because I have two letters from her; one is prior to the request for a Statement in which she says "the approaches and supports provided have NOT had any beneficial effect on increasing his access to the curriculum". Then about a month later she wrote the report towards the Statement which says "school have introduced a number of measures of support and are using approaches which ARE having a beneficial effect on his access to the curriculum."

I'm sorry. But unless she is saying there has been some kind of 'miracle', I don't see how someone can do a U turn in such a short period of time, and especially in the report towards the Statement. The private EP said she could not understand how the LEA's EP could come to completely opposite opinions based on the same information. And the EP stuck with that line until the Autism Oureach Teacher broke ranks and wrote a further addendum to her report. Then the EP 'verbally' agreed that an autism unit was the right place. So, I'm sorry, but I don't see how she has been professional or ethical in her dealings with me at all. She also said I could not request a Statement unless I wanted to move my son to a special school (that's a lie). She promised my son a place in the ER school if I felt he needed it. When I called in that place she said it was "not within her power to allocate those places".

Having said that. I have had dealings with other LEA professionals that I do have faith in.

But no professional can ever be impartial when they are not independent from the body that provides the funding.

 

[Sally44]

Lovely posts Sally.

 

Personally I like the EP question, what do you want? It means they're not going to oppose what you ask for.

 

Do you think so?

I feel out of my depth to specifically 'name' one strategy. And I don't think it is my job to do that.

I expected her to talk to me about my concerns and to investigate them.

It will be interesting to see what the EP says at the Annual Review.

The SALT has listened to my concerns and has assessed my son and identified the difficulties I outlined and has come up with various strategies to meet those needs, all of which I agree with. Whether school is fulfilling them is another story.

Instead I have been labelled 'anxious' by the school who are 'happy' and so is the EP and SPLD teacher (the EP has not seen him for about 2 years and the SPLD teacher has never seen him). So apparently those professionals can also come to conclusions on verbal information given to them by people not qualified in that area of expertise. That is the same as as a dinnerlady or friend of a friend diagnosing in my book.

Prior to his Statement the SALT used to phone his school to ask the TA if he had reached his targets. The TA has no professional qualifications at all.

Although the current SENCO and his class teacher are qualified as 'teachers', they are not EPs or SPLD teachers. So they too are not qualified to make those conclusions.

But so far everything must be okay then. But it isn't. I really do feel like that story of the King with the invisible clothes. Everyone around me is talking about how beautiful they are etc when all I can see is a naked man!

[Sally44]

When a police man came out and threatened to take my license I did not just say.....oh yes just take it......I blamed those people who had taken all of the parking spaces attending a local boxing match.

Alright I admit I was so upset he ended up offering to help me reverse.

 

I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall for that one.

[baddad]

Hi Sally - I can't possibly answer those questions because I don't know you, your child or any of the details other than those you've given me. And even if I did know you, your child and all of the details I'm in no way qualified (or claiming to be qualified) to do so. I'm not talking about you, or your son, or the school, or the ed psych or the ACE advisor personally, I am making general comment based on the information you have posted.

The two situations you described were one where you had made a judgement about 'only wanting the ed psych to do her job' and one where the ACE advisor had. I only pointed out that in the first case the value judgement was inherently biased and that in the second it was at least that and/or unproffessional and/or possibly worse.

And I don't believe for one minute that the education system or those working within it is perfect or in any way close to perfect. When have I said that?

As I said in the other thread - I can keep making the same points over and over but if people cannot see the points I'm trying to make there's no other way of making them. If someone can tell me why they are not valid rather than why they object to them I'm really interested in understanding, but other than that I can't see any point in people quoting my posts back at me, because without that explanation i can only repeat what i've already said.

 

Hope that makes sense

 

L&P

 

BD

[Karen A]

When a police man came out and threatened to take my license I did not just say.....oh yes just take it......I blamed those people who had taken all of the parking spaces attending a local boxing match.

Alright I admit I was so upset he ended up offering to help me reverse.

 

I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall for that one.

 

You have not heard all of it yet......

''Where are you attempting to go anyway madame......''

'' please officer....I am just attempting to find a parking space so I can go to church......''

...and it was all true.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Karen A

[call me jaded]

Why is the mantel of mediator being put onto the ACE advisor? That is not their role. They provide independent advice, the first step being to recommend parents talk to the school.

[cmuir]

Now I'm feeling old, Its only 50 years ago that I started school.

 

Now back to the opening post which posed the question 'Is there a "culture of blame" on the forum?'

I would say that it is no different to what we find in the community as a whole. We all want someone to blame, me included.

 

 

 

No offence intended. Just illustrating how times have and are changing, whether we're talking about 10, 20, 30, plus years ago.

 

Personally, I don't think it's about blame. It's simply about wanting what we think is best for our children. We're living in tough times. All we hear about in the news is the governments giving with one hand and taking away with another and constant budgetary shortfalls (healthcare, education, etc). It's therefore inevitable that some peoples' needs will not be met because of this and as a result some parents find themselves having the challenge of trying to ensure that their children's needs are met in some way. By my own admission, I find myself getting incredibly worked up on occasions about issues whereby I think education professionals could have handled things better with my son or provided more or a different type of support. I'm constantly having to 'check' myself and try and be objective and work out whether I'm being reasonable or not. I think in most cases I am. It took a while, but I feel that I reached a good understanding with my son's HT. She admitted that she wanted to do more, but was restricted by her budget – I can appreciate that she has to try and cater for the needs of the whole school and not just one child. Again, I don't think it's about blame, but rather the pursuit of a right to obtain the best level of support for our children. Sadly, as I've already said, it can boil down to 'she who shouts the loudest' (not literally) who can succeed more easily than someone who doesn't challenge decisions. In Scotland, the Support for Learning Act 2004 states that 'adequate' support must be provided. The definition of 'adequate' is a very sticky point. It's a lottery.

 

Caroline.

[baddad]

Why is the mantel of mediator being put onto the ACE advisor? That is not their role. They provide independent advice, the first step being to recommend parents talk to the school.

 

I have changed the word 'mediate' to 'advise' in my above post. I cannot for the life of me what difference that distinction makes, but as it seemed important enough to you to make a post about I am only too happy to oblige.

 

L&P

 

BD

[mygifts1306]

I dont think there is a culture of blame on this forum. People can talk about stumbling blocks on the their childrens paths. I get the sense that people here are respectable member of our society, not people on the make. You have to just look at the amount of writing that people do here. I wish i found this forum out 2 years ago, i am glad i have found it at last. I agree with BadDad, about ineffective parenting- I sometimes looks back and think, how awful i have been, I was openly critical about my child's behaviour.. I dont believe Aspergers is to blame for violence or just being rude. I have often wondered why my child wont behave, why i tell him not to hit and yet he hits, I figured he must be unhappy, and cant point out why. I do get frustrated and sometimes i come here to rant, sometimes i dont have the strength to type it all.

 

 

[call me jaded]

I have changed the word 'mediate' to 'advise' in my above post. I cannot for the life of me what difference that distinction makes, but as it seemed important enough to you to make a post about I am only too happy to oblige.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

 

An advisor gives an independent opinion based on the information presented, a mediator does no such thing. It helps me see why you would express dismay about a comment about another professional.

Edited January 25, 2010 by call me jaded

[Kathryn]

Hi sally -

 

again, with the best will in the world, and in no way saying that you are 'wrong' about your child etc etc etc I find this really worrying.

What you are describing is a professional advisor telling you that another professional - the ed psych - isn't doing her job properly. There can be no other interpretation of 'you just want the EP to do her job' than 'the EP isn't doing her job.

At the very least that has to be unprofessional - someone consulted to advise on a dispute 'taking sides' and making judgements about the working practices of a specialist trained in a field that (presumably?) the mediator isn't specialised in.

At worst - depending on how he/she arrived at this conclusion (Through first hand observation? Through documented evidence? Or purely based on the opinion of one party who, by definition has an extreme bias) - it sounds like possible slander(?)

I could understand this more if it was offered in the way of a 'counselling technique' - to offer reassurance etc: something along the lines of 'You just want her to do her job which you don't think she is currently doing', but that can't be the case because you've already made the distinction that these are the ACE advisor's feelings being expressed and not your own (the latter being the case in the first scenario I responded to).

Again, please don't misunderstand - I am not in any way commenting or making judgements about the rights or wrongs on any side in your disagreement about your son's schooling - I couldn't possibly know...

And again, without any sort of personal observation whatsoever the situation you've detailed is a fairly accurate representation of a point I made in the other thread about legality when I said that i hoped people considered it should 'work both ways'. I genuinely feel that if an ed psych is being criticised in this way by an ACE advisor then the ACE advisor should be brought to task over it. (and would believe equally that that should be the case if the reverse situation was being described.) I can't see any way that anyone who has argued for rigid pursuit of 'the letter of the law' in a mutually cooperative situation can have any other possible opinion regarding a protracted uncooperative one. (?)

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Why the rant against ACE, BD, and what has it got to do with anything in this thread, I wonder?

 

You don't like being quoted out of context yourself and you don't like people making judgements based on incomplete facts. Interesting, therefore, that you can offer this very detailed analysis of a single comment made by an advisor during what was probably a 20 minute or so conversation, when you can't possibly know the context in which it was made, the tone of voice in which it was said, or any of the facts of the situation. Finishing a sentence is a basic conversational turn taking technique many people employ, especially when they are on the phone, to show that they are listening. To judge someone's motives and professionalism based on this, is a bit odd.

 

I'm not sure you understand what ACE actually do. No ACE advisor or any other advisor from a quality organisation would "take sides" as all they are there to do is provide legally based advice over the phone to a parent based on the information they are given. They might be sympathetic to the parent, which is a different thing altogether but they would give objective advice which might even mean telling the parent something they don't want to hear at times.

 

K x

 

 

[pearl]

<'> <'> <'> <'> <'>

It is so good to see you.

It is a very strange thing.I was not on Forum yesterday but part way through the day I suddenly realised I hadn't seen you around for a while.

I think it was when I was wondering if anyone here might have an idea for how to convert an ordinary sports bra into a racer back bras to stop the straps falling down.

How off topic is that.

 

 

Freezer clips

[baddad]

Why the rant against ACE, BD, and what has it got to do with anything in this thread, I wonder?

 

You don't like being quoted out of context yourself and you don't like people making judgements based on incomplete facts. Interesting, therefore, that you can offer this very detailed analysis of a single comment made by an advisor during what was probably a 20 minute or so conversation, when you can't possibly know the context in which it was made, the tone of voice in which it was said, or any of the facts of the situation. Finishing a sentence is a basic conversational turn taking technique many people employ, especially when they are on the phone, to show that they are listening. To judge someone's motives and professionalism based on this, is a bit odd.

 

I'm not sure you understand what ACE actually do. No ACE advisor or any other advisor from a quality organisation would "take sides" as all they are there to do is provide legally based advice over the phone to a parent based on the information they are given. They might be sympathetic to the parent, which is a different thing altogether but they would give objective advice which might even mean telling the parent something they don't want to hear at times.

 

K x

 

No, I probably don't understand exactly what ACE do - I've never consulted them. I did actually consider that what sally44 thought the ACE advsior said was a sympathetic response/counselling technique, as you'll see quite clearly if you look at my post again...

 

I'm not 'Ranting' against ACE at all, and it wasn't me who raised it in this thread. If you look again, the topic originally evolved in a different thread and my reply to that was based on the understanding that sally44 had made the comment.

It was 'ported' into this thread by sally44 here:

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.ph...st&p=279310

 

along with the 'shift' in emphasis from it being Sally44's words to being those of an ACE advisor...

and if you look at sally 44s original post in the other thread and again at the post I just linked in this one there was nothiing taken 'out of context' whatsoever - I even offered a context in which it would have been a reasonable thing for the ACE advisor to say!

 

So, in a nutshell: Nothing against ACE whatsoever (and certainly not a rant) - just an observation i would have made about any service given the information above...

Not quoted out of context: a direct response to a post made in this thread by a member 'porting' the subject in...

Not a 'detailed analysis of a single comment made during a twenty minute conversation' - I have no idea how long the conversation lasted and it's largely irrelevent anyway because the single comment was the specific point in question as 'directed' by the original poster...

Not exactly a judgement of the advisors professionalism, because I actually acknowledged a context when it would be a reasonable thing to say, but i'll admit to - and stand by the assertion that if the circumstances were as detailed by the OP it would be unprofessional...

And no, I don't know exactly what ACE do - but that's a moot point if you look at the above...

 

Anyhoo - I hope none of the above will be interpreted as any sort of Rant against anyone, and that anyone reading this (including yourself, Kathryn) will see that it was written in direct response to a series of questions directed specifically towards me.

 

Now, time for bed for this wee soldier...

 

L&P (as always)

 

BD

[Karen A]

Freezer clips

 

<'> <'> <'>

Karen.

 

[lorryw]

I admire all those parents who have the ability and energy to "fight" a very flawed system.

Looking back on when my son was a little lad I feel very sad that I wasnt aware I could challenge the decisions made by our local LEA. Access to the internet and all the information and help available now simply wasnt an option and forums such as this should be treasured.

We are currently embattled with adult services and we are determined that my son will have a fair deal. We shouldnt have to fight, they should abide by community care law but they dont for a multitude of reasons.

[call me jaded]

pearl, KarenA win the award for Best thread drift ever! Completely off topic, with a practical outcome!

 

I've lost the plot on this thread anyway. Are we all saying professionals should be more professional, with BD saying parents should be more professional too? Other than a slight hummmphhh of 'how very dare you...' I think I get his point and I'm done on this one.

 

Can't agree that there's a blame culture though. Parents are far from perfect but most of us start out willing to believe that the people in the system can and will do what they can to help. Comes as a bit of a shock if you find out that's not the case.

[baddad]

pearl, KarenA win the award for Best thread drift ever! Completely off topic, with a practical outcome!

 

I've lost the plot on this thread anyway. Are we all saying professionals should be more professional, with BD saying parents should be more professional too? Other than a slight hummmphhh of 'how very dare you...' I think I get his point and I'm done on this one.

 

Can't agree that there's a blame culture though. Parents are far from perfect but most of us start out willing to believe that the people in the system can and will do what they can to help. Comes as a bit of a shock if you find out that's not the case.

 

Pearl: Freezer clips... make great cable ties for very thin speaker wire

 

 

Delia - Thanks for (sort of) seeing my point, and i do fully take on board/understand the initial 'hummmmphhhh of how very dare you...' but the problem is soo often that people are completely unwilling to go beyond that gut reaction and look at the bigger picture objectively...

I'm sorry, but I do believe that the people in the system (to the greater extent) can and will do what they can to help - but that has to be tempered with what is practical and achievable within finite budgets, consideration for everyone else involved (not just the individual child but the other thirty + children who share a classroom with him or her), and consideration for the flawed system that everyone in the loop is forced to work within. And cooperation, mutual trust and respect has to be a part of that. And that is not what I see most of the time when I read the boards... I see 'warrior mums', and heaven forbid anyone who suggests that's probably not the best way forward because they'll find themselves dragged through the metaphorical hot coals of three different threads all lashing back against the possibility of even considering an alternative view...

Lets look at education as an example:

If tomorrow the government announced that - whatever the expense involved - every child in the country would get a personal tutor, and every single resource they needed in terms of academic materials would be provided, and school dinners - based on the selections of the individual child and cooked to their individual specifications were also provided free of charge, do you think that would be enough? Do you think it would solve the education 'problem' or satisfy every parent and/or child?

I would put money on it not working. I think the complaints would start very quickly: 'Well have you seen the teacher Becky Willberforce has got? He looks much nicer than the one my Shane's been issued with. Those bl00dy Willberforces get everything they want and i get some creepy looking specky idiot who Shane doesn't even like... How on earth is he supposed to work under those conditions?'

And if every single child in the Country was educated so well that they all got distinctions on every piece of work they submitted and every exam they took, do you think that would make parents happy? I don't. I think that Parents of children who got a distinction at 96% would be up in arms complaining that their children didn't get the 99-100% that some got while simultaneously looking down their noses at the 'dregs' who scraped a 'bare pass' distinction of 86%. And I don't think, even under those circumstances, there would be that many parents who would be willing to say 'well actually my child could have worked a bit harder' or 'I could have tried a bit harder to get him to do his homework'... It would still be the fault of the teacher/the system/the government/the (insert your own reasons here) and the warrior mums would still be rushing into battle. And they would still be posting on forums like these to justify and normalise their actions and have them reinforced...

And I would dearly, dearly love for someone to show me how I'm wrong...

Please?

Pretty Please?

 

L&P

 

BD

 

(Oh PS: just in case. Not an observation on you, Delia - but I don't think you'd take it as such anyway(?) Just a reply to aspects of 'the system' and views thereof as mentioned in your post.)

Edited January 26, 2010 by baddad

[lisac]

I can see what you are saying about 'warrior mums', iv'e known a few and they can be incredibly irritating and irrational in my personal opinion. However, some of us on here are really very reasonable and only want what is fair and right , x

[Karen A]

I admire all those parents who have the ability and energy to "fight" a very flawed system.

Looking back on when my son was a little lad I feel very sad that I wasnt aware I could challenge the decisions made by our local LEA. Access to the internet and all the information and help available now simply wasnt an option and forums such as this should be treasured.

We are currently embattled with adult services and we are determined that my son will have a fair deal. We shouldnt have to fight, they should abide by community care law but they dont for a multitude of reasons.

 

 

When I joined the Forum just over three years ago it was the start of a long journey for our family.

I had trained as a community nurse and a TA.My husband had worked in the NHS for nearly twenty years.

My best friend had and still has son with profound ASD and I had known the family since he was newborn.

A teacher at Ben's school who is a forum member here spoke to me one day.She said Ben reminded her of her son and her son had at the time recently been diagnosed with AS.

We were very fortunate to have a support network including some well informed friends.

Most of our friends including my friend who has a son with ASD thought it unlikely that Ben had AS.

However they supported us along with Ben's teacher [ <'> ].

Even with a network of supportive friends and access to some excellent professionals it has been a long journey.

Those who know me here will probably guess that I am fairly articulate.

I speak English as a first language.I read books and have learned to use the internet.

I have an excellent grasp of the NHS and my husband has far more understanding than myself [he works at deputy director level for an NHS foundation trust]

None the less it has been extremely difficult to obtain appropriate provision for Ben.

 

 

 

I live in an inner city borough where a significant proportion of the population do not speak English.

It is one of the most deprived boroughs in the country by all known indicators.

We happen to have an excellent LA who are extremely supportive.I cannot fault them.

However very few parents of children with SEN are able to access the support and information they so badly need in the early days.

Ben went to an excellent nursery but there are two children including Ben who were never picked up as having AS but have now been diagnosed within the NHS.

The HT at Ben's nursery was excellent but she thought it very strange that anyone could think he had any learning difficulties at all.

 

Three years ago I met another forum member who has become a good friend.

She also has a daughter with AS and suggested the Forum might be helpful. <'> <'>

I have found some of the most well informed people here.

When we have a problem and I don't know what to do it is still the Forum that I return to.

I now hope that with the information I have learned over the years I am able to help others.

Most people who come here come because they are desperate and do not know where to start to look for information.

I can only hope that a few obtain enough information and support to feel a little more able to cope.

 

I grew up in the 1970s when very little was known about SEN or SLD.

My brother was a very bright 16 year old with dyspraxia.It was never called that because it was not recognised as such at the time.

My mum knew David could not write well and had difficulties planning his work.He could not complete exams in time despite his best efforts.

However he did not have any help because there was no awareness at the time.

He comitted suicide during the night before an O level exam.

My mum never knew about Ben having AS.

She died herself the year before Ben was born.

However she and my dad never recovered from David's death.

I have just in the last couple of months decided that I need to move on.

My mum and dad spent the whole of the remainder of their lives carrying the guilt for my brother's death.

 

Having had first hand experience of how difficult that is I would never want another parent to go through the experience that can only be described as a living hell.

 

Hence I am pretty passionate about giving people the information they need to make informed choices.

I for one have the utmost regard for all of the professionals who have worked with our family in the last four years.

At the last count it was almost one hundered.

I do use the phrases often ''fighting or pushing for appropriate provision'' .

However that is a reflection of the system rather than the individuals working within it.

As I said before my husband works at a senior level within the system and unfortunately despite my best efforts he is not perfect yet.

I do not work because I have not found anything that fits round Ben,our elder son and my husdands major work comitments.

However I can honestly say that it is still a part time job just keeping in contact with school and various professionals.

Even since christmas Ben has changed forms due to difficulties with other pupils in the class at the schools suggestion.

This evening we will attend parents evening to meet the second set of teachers Ben has had since September..who have known him for a fortnight.

Yesterday I was contacted by the OT.

Tomorrow we will be seeing the psychotherapist who is our main support who is organising a meeting with school in a couple of weeks.

.

Even since starting school in September Ben has now had twenty different subject teachers and two form teachers and two sets of TAs.

 

Perhaps for parents who have children in Specialist Provision things are different.

I can only speak from my experience.

I still need to drop Ben at school and collect him because he cannot cope on public transport alone.

School are working very hard to support Ben....including the deputy headteacher,year head,SENCO,form tutor and deputy year head.

However it did not stop a situation the week before last where Ben came out of school so agitated he nearly smashed up my car dashboard.

My husband is very fortunate that although he works extremely hard his employer is supportive.

He has for the last three years worked round CAMHS appointments every Wedensday.

We now have a very strong marriage.However despite having been through difficult times the last three years have been hugely stressful.

Our elder son is very supportive of Ben and always has been.However we know that he has made sacrifices because he has a brother with SEN.

When you are 14 and attempting to look cool it does not help to have a brother who can be rude to your friends.

Studying for GCSES is not easy when a brother starts shouting and throwing things because he cannot cope with his homework.

 

All of these issues add up to produce huge amounts of frustration for all of us which is probably not always expressed in the most helpful way.

I do have to say that despite having excellent relationships with the vast majority of professionals we have worked with I know who the experst are in blaming others....and it is not us parents.We work with a team of professionals across two trusts,the LA,a faith school and various professional groups all with individual politics and some huge egos.

 

 

 

[barefoot wend]

I do not think there is a culture of blame on this forum but a culture of trying to provide people, in difficult circumstances ,with the information they need to make an informed choice rather then accepting what is offered. It is sad when this sometimes results in differences of opinion that, inadvertently, come across as squabbles and scare prospective new members off.

 

It is great to see some of the 'oldies' back. He, he he!

 

Barefoot

[Karen A]

Pearl: Freezer clips... make great cable ties for very thin speaker wire

 

 

Delia - Thanks for (sort of) seeing my point, and i do fully take on board/understand the initial 'hummmmphhhh of how very dare you...' but the problem is soo often that people are completely unwilling to go beyond that gut reaction and look at the bigger picture objectively...

I'm sorry, but I do believe that the people in the system (to the greater extent) can and will do what they can to help - but that has to be tempered with what is practical and achievable within finite budgets, consideration for everyone else involved (not just the individual child but the other thirty + children who share a classroom with him or her), and consideration for the flawed system that everyone in the loop is forced to work within. And cooperation, mutual trust and respect has to be a part of that. And that is not what I see most of the time when I read the boards... I see 'warrior mums', and heaven forbid anyone who suggests that's probably not the best way forward because they'll find themselves dragged through the metaphorical hot coals of three different threads all lashing back against the possibility of even considering an alternative view...

Lets look at education as an example:

If tomorrow the government announced that - whatever the expense involved - every child in the country would get a personal tutor, and every single resource they needed in terms of academic materials would be provided, and school dinners - based on the selections of the individual child and cooked to their individual specifications were also provided free of charge, do you think that would be enough? Do you think it would solve the education 'problem' or satisfy every parent and/or child?

I would put money on it not working. I think the complaints would start very quickly: 'Well have you seen the teacher Becky Willberforce has got? He looks much nicer than the one my Shane's been issued with. Those bl00dy Willberforces get everything they want and i get some creepy looking specky idiot who Shane doesn't even like... How on earth is he supposed to work under those conditions?'

And if every single child in the Country was educated so well that they all got distinctions on every piece of work they submitted and every exam they took, do you think that would make parents happy? I don't. I think that Parents of children who got a distinction at 96% would be up in arms complaining that their children didn't get the 99-100% that some got while simultaneously looking down their noses at the 'dregs' who scraped a 'bare pass' distinction of 86%. And I don't think, even under those circumstances, there would be that many parents who would be willing to say 'well actually my child could have worked a bit harder' or 'I could have tried a bit harder to get him to do his homework'... It would still be the fault of the teacher/the system/the government/the (insert your own reasons here) and the warrior mums would still be rushing into battle. And they would still be posting on forums like these to justify and normalise their actions and have them reinforced...

And I would dearly, dearly love for someone to show me how I'm wrong...

Please?

Pretty Please?

 

L&P

 

BD

 

(Oh PS: just in case. Not an observation on you, Delia - but I don't think you'd take it as such anyway(?) Just a reply to aspects of 'the system' and views thereof as mentioned in your post.)

 

But the professionals within the system are themselves desperate about the current situation.

The budgets are being cut and there is less money.

The professionals are as unhappy as the parentsif not more so.

Did you not read the papers over the weekend...they were full of professionals blaming each other,politicians blaming professionals but mostly politicians blaming parents.

 

Don't worry whoever the next government are I can say absolutely that you need not worry about them offering more money.

 

I have seen very few parents here in the last three years who have unrealistic expectations in my opinion...a few perhaps but they are in very much the minority.

I have read hundreds of posts from parents in extremely difficult often complex situations who have perfectly reasonable expectations which include...

A child having a right to an appropriate full time education which takes account of their individual SEN.

A child having the right to a holistic multi professional assessment within the NHS within a recognised documented acceptable time frame.

A child having the right to an education in an environment where there is appropriate provision for their emotional well being.

A child having a right to feel safe at home,at school and within the community.

Parents having the right to be listened to and their concerns heard.

An expectation that professionals and LAs will work within the current legal guidance or be held accountable if they don't.

 

BD I am sure that there are plenty of places where there are warrior mums rushing into battle.....it interests me that it is the mums you refer to....is that not an issue for dads then ?

 

I even know what the recognised equivalent of a warrior mum is....it is a dad that is uninvolved or absent and so has no interest in advocating for his child at all.He would never be seen on a forum because he is down the pub or the betting offfice.

That is the equivalent sexist steretype

 

The press has been full of little more in the last few days than various people making opinionated insensitive judgemental comments about other people's ways of raising their children based on little more than personal opinion and prejudice.

If you feel that there are too many warrior mums here having their outragious views normalised I can give you a list of plenty of other places you can go where they have no voice at all because people make sure they are not heard.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Karen A

[Karen A]

It is great to see some of the 'oldies' back. He, he he!

 

Barefoot

 

 

 

[Karen A]

I can see what you are saying about 'warrior mums', iv'e known a few and they can be incredibly irritating and irrational in my personal opinion. However, some of us on here are really very reasonable and only want what is fair and right , x

 

I have to say.What is posted on Forum can be comletely different to how people are IRL anyway.

I have been known to vent here furiously and be most irritating so that having been helped to be a little more balanced I can go off and be very reasonable with those concerned.

Most people surprisingly find me very reasonable if unassertive and a bit longwinded at times.

 

[Karen A]

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1763&a=8791

I was looking for this to post elsewhere for someone this morning.

I started posting it for people after one of the previous mods flagged it up.

I have used it numerous times as the source is pretty solid.

When I read it again this morning I realised it is pretty clear and assertive.....if that is being a warrior mum then count me in.

[baddad]

But the professionals within the system are themselves desperate about the current situation.

The budgets are being cut and there is less money.

The professionals are as unhappy as the parentsif not more so.

Did you not read the papers over the weekend...they were full of professionals blaming each other,politicians blaming professionals but mostly politicians blaming parents.

 

Don't worry whoever the next government are I can say absolutely that you need not worry about them offering more money.

 

I have seen very few parents here in the last three years who have unrealistic expectations in my opinion...a few perhaps but they are in very much the minority.

I have read hundreds of posts from parents in extremely difficult often complex situations who have perfectly reasonable expectations which include...

A child having a right to an appropriate full time education which takes account of their individual SEN.

A child having the right to a holistic multi professional assessment within the NHS within a recognised documented acceptable time frame.

A child having the right to an education in an environment where there is appropriate provision for their emotional well being.

A child having a right to feel safe at home,at school and within the community.

Parents having the right to be listened to and their concerns heard.

An expectation that professionals and LAs will work within the current legal guidance or be held accountable if they don't.

 

BD I am sure that there are plenty of places where there are warrior mums rushing into battle.....it interests me that it is the mums you refer to....is that not an issue for dads then ?

 

I even know what the recognised equivalent of a warrior mum is....it is a dad that is uninvolved or absent and so has no interest in advocating for his child at all.He would never be seen on a forum because he is down the pub or the betting offfice.

That is the equivalent sexist steretype

 

The press has been full of little more in the last few days than various people making opinionated insensitive judgemental comments about other people's ways of raising their children based on little more than personal opinion and prejudice.

If you feel that there are too many warrior mums here having their outragious views normalised I can give you a list of plenty of other places you can go where they have no voice at all because people make sure they are not heard.

 

Hi Karen -

 

I think we are looking at different forums, or looking at the same one through different eyes... so lets 'agree to differ'...

Warrior dads: I think you've hit the nail on the head with your stereotype model of males: largely seemingly endorsed on the forum - or diagnosed autistic! - but I don't agree that it is an 'equivelent' stereotype, because (whether his absence is due to him being down the pub or not) he is simply not in evidence here other than in second hand accounts from people who have an inherent bias, whereas I could find many many examples of 'first hand' warrior mums if it wasn't moderated for 'being judgemental' or 'personal'... The big problem, yer see, is that someone who is being unreasonable rarely sees that they are being unreasonable*... and that someone who is agreeing and endorsing or 'normalising' unreasonable behaviour will rarely see their actions for what they are either. Do you think peodophile rings, football hooligans, drug dealers etc etc sit around making negative judgements about each other? No - they collude [and no - I am not equating 'warrior mums' with paedophiles/football hooligans etc: I am just using examples that come to mind of groups who justify negative behaviours through group identity and a process of reinforcement and normalisation]

A fer fer fer flawed system: No, I don't read newspapers, but why on earth do you think I don't acknowledge that the system is flawed? I think part of that comes right down to parents - not just parents of disabled children but to all parents who will not consider any wider view outside of the school experience of their own child/children. And before anyone jumps over that I think there are hundreds of other reasons too, but two wrongs don't make a right and neither do 'hundreds + 1'...

I do not need to read a newspaper, look at a forum or do any of those things to know that there is a huge amoint of ineffective parenting going on: I can walk around any sink estate on any day/night of the week and see the results of it. If i had the stomach for it i could watch Jeremy Kyle and Trisha in the mornings, just to double check.

Do I believe that parents of autistic children are exempt from making those same parenting mistakes - no.

Do I believe that autism (or any other disability/preceived disability) can provide some parents with a bl00dy useful 'get out of jail free card' regarding their own mistakes/failings? Yes.

Do I believe that many autistic children now are being raised with that 'get out of jail free' ideology implanted and reinforced from an early age? Yes.

Do I think it dangerous for others to reinforce and normalise those behaviours? Yes.

Do I see evidence of that on this forum? Yes

Do I think that saying any of the above will be popular?

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Oh: PS. Anyone interpreting any personal/individual attack from any of the above needs to look again. If they still feel the same way, then they need to ask themselves 'Why am I feeling so defensive' rather than 'Why is that horrible man picking on me an my baby?'

 

Oh.. .One more why... why do I bother? Because I genuinely believe that what I offer as advice can benefit children and parents. Not in a 'saviour' way or in a way like 'my advice is better than yours' (but it probably is that's a joke, BTW) but just in a practical way.

 

Right - I'll nip off and buy a new dustbin to put all the veg that'll be flying my way in (keep this up I can open a greengrocers!).

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Oh I put an asterisk * in the above for anyone looking for a quick 'gainsaying soundbite'... feel free to lob it back at me along with the veg and stuff.

Oh again ; just seen your last post with a link to the NAS... No that's not being a 'warrior mum' that's all sound advice of exactly the kind I offer (clever ol' me...) Warrior mum's might do all of the same things sometimes - they're not necessarily feckless mum's - but what they won't do is look at all of that evidence in context: they'll just cherry pick it for the bits that are most useful for projecting all responsibility off of themselves and their child and onto somebody (anybody! - including your stereotype absent dad down the pub) else...

Edited January 26, 2010 by baddad