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Autistic Boy given bleach

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Its sad.The full story hasnt come to light as yet.We dont know what kind of pressure she was under(not that its an excuse) and how much help she was getting.It is also not clear if he drank this by accident,as some kids do,ifhe was forced,coerced etc???I know she has been charged but that may be down to the fact he had other injuries?

 

I guess all will be clearer in time.

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Very sad if this woman has tried to kill her own child, but terrible for everyone if she has been falsely accused and this was just a horrible accident.

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That is really terrible though I am inclined to feel that both the mother and children have been let down maybe if more help and support had been available she wouldn,t have been driven to this. I once nursed someone who had drank bleach in an attempt to kill herself and yes she was in agony and needed major surgery. I feel so terribly sad this has happened.

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There is nothing in the world that can excuse this act. Nothing. The only possible mitigating factor is that the parent was not in control of their own actions - but difficult to see how this can be anything but a premeditated act of murder. There are options available, extreme but less tragic and violent: tying him up and dumping him on the doorstep of social services for example, or simply walking out and abandoning him would have been better. The parent either needs psychiatric treatment or prison, in my opinion, but there need to be clear consequences for this which send a strong message to society that taking an autistic child's life is just as wrong as taking the life of, for example, a cute little smiley toddler like Baby P. :(

 

K x

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There is no excuse if the mother has given bleach to her autistic son, the authorities did,nt primarily let this boy down .......his mother did by doing this act!!I,m sorry but there are many many good parents out there struggling with the system and they are,nt killing their kids because of it....its early days and hopefully all the true facts will come out and those who are guilty shall be punished if it is proven that this was a murderous act.It may have indeed been a tragic accident we just can,t be sure.Its very very sad that this child died like this :tearful

Edited by Suze

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I agree . She could have called SocialServices or the Police .

In utter despair desperation and frustration, like water dripping, she may have 'lost it' or 'snapped' . At that moment she may not have been thinking rationally and just wanted it to stop. If this is the case she has my understanding. Some of these kids will push the patience of a room full of Saints. I have at times been called an 'angel' and a 'saint' because my son is able to kill off anyones spirit . It can be a souless futile existence worrying and caring round the clock. The care SServices provides is rarely appropriate for those with more complex autism . Id hedge a bet that her life was one long miserable worry and when all school or respite seem to do is complain about your child , 'what is the point'? is a daily thought .

 

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The Daily Mail say that the Police, NHS and other agencees etc had been involved in the family for several years.

 

Very sad for all concerned

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There is no excuse if the mother has given bleach to her autistic son, the authorities did,nt primarily let this boy down .......his mother did by doing this act!!I,m sorry but there are many many good parents out there struggling with the system and they are,nt killing their kids because of it....its early days and hopefully all the true facts will come out and those who are guilty shall be punished if it is proven that this was a murderous act.It may have indeed been a tragic accident we just can,t be sure.Its very very sad that this child died like this :tearful

 

Totally agree ...

terrible, terrible thing, and even worse if the blame is heaped on the child (for being so difficult to parent it drove the mother to it) or on social services, who are the scapegoats every time something like this happens but child snatching monsters every time they try to intervene and remove children from abusive parents.

There can be no silver lining in a situation like this, but lets hope at least that the 11 year old sibling has some opportunity now for a decent life. So, so sad both boys weren't given that opportunity.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

PS: I'm really, really sorry to add this in such a tragic thread, but I've just seen Lisac's post and it's really angered me.

No, none of us are saints or angels - I frequently point this out, and it's usually received very poorly... But if anyone's sympathies lie with the mother in this, if this was a deliberate act and she forced bleach down her child's throat, if anyone feels there can be any justicication of that, any social situation or degree of anger frustration that can qualify it, I do, honestly, think they should phone social services now, today and make that known.

Edited by baddad

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I don,t think anybody meant that it was justified that she poured bleach down her childs throat i think any rationale person would stop and think before doing a thing like this but i think the point people were trying to make is that their is a distinct lack of support out there for families and occasionally people feel like their is no way out and so do desperate things. This is very sad but I don,t think we can point the finger without all the facts. Anybody who is deliberately cruel or harms a child is in my view a monster and should be dealt with accordingly and i don,t think anybody was saying it matters less for this child who has difficult behaviour than it does for a smiling toddler, every child deserves love and respect and should be treated equally especially by their parents.

I personally never blaim my children for their behaviour I am well aware it is not their fault and they can,t help it but at times due to tiredness or just the sheer volume of incedents that have occured on a set day i find it hard to stay smiley and help them through their issues, sometimes i just need to walk away for a short period of time and come back to it later. I don,t think this makes me a bad mother just human and I can help my children far better by having the ability to back away from a situation and deal with it later. Sometimes this is difficult to do particularly with Marcus who will keep at something until he gets the answer he wants. Sometimes I make mistakes say things i regret again i am human and i am thankful for the back up of my husband and friends. I too have people say to me that i have the patience of a saint and i too say that I just do what I have to do and on the whole the rewards far outweigh the rough times but I know DH doesn,t feel like this and really struggles with the behaviour of all the kids not just the boys the only way he can deal with it is to let me deal with it. I most of the time am happpy he feels confident enough in my abilites to let me deal with it but other times i would appreciate more support.

Edited by joybed

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Hi again

I do agree 100% that NOBODY NO MATTER THE SITUATION HAS ANY RIGHT TO KILL THEIR OWN CHILD!!!

However,it is sometimes(please make not of this sometimes!)true to say SS or police are not quick enough to act.It is often down to resorces but what price can you put on saving a childs life.

My friend is a social worker I know how hard their job is and I know I could never make the decisions they have to make on a daily basis.SS and police may have known they mother needed help(according to the news),but prehaps could only asses the situation the next day or week it all depends on the information they received as they may have assumed it was not a priority.

Again am not blaming anyone.

 

I know many people watched the documentry recently on mothers caring for disabled kids and how they were having such a hard time,many of the comments made here regarding that documentry were of understanding and compassion,when the mothers made comments on how they have thought of killing their child and themeselves.So because this women has done it,it seems everyones views have changed.As I say I am not condoning what she did but answers need to be found.

 

It is also all well and good for us sane and rational parents(most of the time :lol: )to be disgusted and appaled by this tradegy,but we dont know this ladies mental state.I watched a programme few years back on why parents kill their own children and how professionals are trying to understand this,as its clear that some cases the parent never has any mental health problems.They believe we all have a mechanism that prevents us from harming our loved ones,so in the heat of rage and anger we can walk away,but they believe these people have a mechanism that doesnt work and so that "snap" is really a snap of the mechanism.

 

Like Baddad says at least the other boy may have a better life,saying that at his age its likely he will grow up in a home or be moved from foster parent to foster parent even more probable if this has affected his own mental health!How sad :(

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Really feel for the mother. Must have been absolutely desperate to hurt the child she undoubtedly loved. Just how desperate must she have been to even contemplate that sort of death for her child? Imagine the depth of sadness, hopelessness and feeling that you imagine yourself that totally alone.

 

Remember reading some ago of a mum who jumped with her son from a bridge. At the time life here was unbearable and I could totally understand why and wondered how much more I could take?

 

Thankfully life got easier and continues to be, but I won't forget and could never judge anyone who couldn't take anymore.

 

 

 

If people dont understand then lucky you!

 

 

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There is nothing in the world that can excuse this act. Nothing. The only possible mitigating factor is that the parent was not in control of their own actions - but difficult to see how this can be anything but a premeditated act of murder. There are options available, extreme but less tragic and violent: tying him up and dumping him on the doorstep of social services for example, or simply walking out and abandoning him would have been better. The parent either needs psychiatric treatment or prison, in my opinion, but there need to be clear consequences for this which send a strong message to society that taking an autistic child's life is just as wrong as taking the life of, for example, a cute little smiley toddler like Baby P. :(

 

K x

 

 

Im with K here.

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Really feel for the mother. Must have been absolutely desperate to hurt the child she undoubtedly loved. Just how desperate must she have been to even contemplate that sort of death for her child? Imagine the depth of sadness, hopelessness and feeling that you imagine yourself that totally alone.

 

Remember reading some ago of a mum who jumped with her son from a bridge. At the time life here was unbearable and I could totally understand why and wondered how much more I could take?

 

Thankfully life got easier and continues to be, but I won't forget and could never judge anyone who couldn't take anymore.

 

 

 

If people dont understand then lucky you!

 

Lisa - I can only imagine that means that 'if you haven't felt the depths of despair that I/This mother/people like us have felt you haven't had the same experience of autism as I/her/us...'

 

That's one hell of an assumption to make (and probably exacty the kind of assumption her defence lawyers will be hoping a jury makes) but there is a mile of difference between being 'pushed to the limits' and the act being described here. You've made all sorts of assumptions too about the mother, presumably based on what you hope her situation was rather than accepting the much more straightfoward possibility that she just wasn't a 'fit' parent. It is precisely those kinds of assumptions that create situations where these tragedies can occur - because as long as assumptions exist that all parents are inherently 'good' or capable then it remains almost impossible for services that should be protecting children to intervene. If this mother had had her son 'taken away by social services' and joined this forum for support then overwhelmingly the response would have been to blindly sympathise with her. Had her son been 'taken away by social services' and she had 'gone to the press' undoubtedly the media response would have also been one of blind sympathy, criticisng social services for unnecessary brutality in their handling of the situation and emphasising how much a child, especially a 'poor little autistic' one that perfectly fits their 'victim' stereotype, needs its mother...

Those kinds of assumptions, sadly, can be wrong. Those kinds of assumptions can end in tragedies like this one.

I really do hope there will be some sort of other explanation than the one that appears to be emerging, something to suggest that this was a tragic accident and not a deliberate act. But if it was a deliberate act I hope some people will have their assumptions challenged by it, and will begin to accept that a child's 'best place' isn't always going to be with its mother (or father or family), because the more people that do accept that then the more chance there is of other tragedies being circumvented. The fact that a child is known to Social Services does not necessarily mean they are in a position to act. Parents will lie, and, as recent court cases have highlighted, people who believe those parents (or have other reasons for protecting them) will also lie.

 

L&P

 

BD

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death by bleach is the most cruel and agonising death, i worked as a vet nurse and a dog came in having drunk bleach,the poor creature was in a terrilbs state ans the bleach stripped away the food canal lining ,it was put to sleep as soon as possible the poor thing was suffering,so imagine the same on a human being. . We all have bad and frustrating days but killing your child with the excuse that you lost it is no excuse at all and hypocritical,since i am constantly trying to get P not to use his temper to harm someone else. A disabled child/person is a very vunerable soul and needs the fall weight of the law and society to protect them from unintentional /intenttaional harm by others in contact with them. I hope i am sorry to say this woman gets the fall judgement of UK justice for killing her child in a most painful and cruel way.

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It makes me wonder how a person can feel that everything is so far out of control, that murder is their only way to solve their problems. I believe i will never reach that kind of breaking point. But still, seemingly normal people kill or kill themselves. What do you think it will take for you to reach that point? Do you think in the past that she thought she would be be able to kill one of her own children?

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just asking what happened to my thread i started,yesturday, about this terrible death of a autistic child?

 

Your thread has been merged in with this one

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I merged the threads as they were both on the same topic, and gave the resulting thread a new title. Sorry for the confusion!

 

K x

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Too many people read articles (especially from The Sun - oh what a great publication!) and make various assumptions and accusations based upon little fact and/or understanding. The fact is both sides of the argument are, essentially, correct.

 

Yes, this is a terrible thing to have happened regardless of whether it was an accident or intentional. Yes this woman does deserve sympathy, again, regardless of whether it was an accident or intentional. The fact is the poor woman has lost her child! To simply brand someone as a monster is to live in complete ignorance. You are assuming there is such a thing as evil, where as the truth is everyone has the potential to commit murder.

 

Granted, very few people would murder their own children and you can say yourself that you would never do that but how can you TRULY know unless you experience those circumstances. I am not condoning any of this, but simply trying to make people think...Imagine if your child had some terrible illness that made them suffer in agonising pain every minute of their life...Imagine that you lived in a country where rape and torture were rife and you were in situation where something awful was about to happen and you were able able to prevent that...Imagine if you were stuck in a burning building at the top of a 100 storey building and you and child were about to burn in an agonising death.

 

The fact is nobody really knows what they are capable of or what situations they may ever find themselves in. You may think that this woman was perfectly sane and simply committed a horrendous act but we don't actually know this. She may have actually been suffering from schizophrenia or some other well known mental condition. She may have even been suffering from a yet unknown condition that goes easily hidden in society (ya know, kinda like Asperger's!). Or she may not.

 

Fact is, nobody knows, so maybe people should hold back and put down their pitchforks and put out their torches. I'm not defending any sort of act like this, but it's too easy to go all out on someone especially when you don't know the facts. All I'm gonna say now is that it is a terrible thing to have happened and that my thoughts are with everyone affected by this.

 

P.S. Baddad, I disagree that the sibling will now be able to live a decent life - he's lost two of the key people of his family and now faces a childhood devoid of any stability or motherly love. I know you won't find anything positive from that and that's no criticism, just wanted to point that out in case it wasn't already obvious.

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Hi hoss -

 

No, I'm not making any assumptions. A woman fed her child bleach. Both sides of this argument are not 'essentially correct': a child has been brutally murdered, and that's the only 'side'. I really, really hope that 'ya know,kinda like Aspergers' isn't being offered as a defence here, because ,ya know, this is nothing like Aspergers. I frequently post here about assumptions of 'victimhood' and how much I dislike those pigeonholes and those who take refuge in them. Sometimes, though, there are real victims. Sadly, they rarely get an opportunity to defend themselves, and sometimes they are even blamed for the actions of those who have abused them. That's wrong.

 

 

BD

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This is about my third attempt to post, as I've been finding it very difficult to express what I want to say without sounding sanctimonious, which is honestly not my intention! :ph34r:

 

Anyway, here goes...

 

It is absolutely right to condemn an act like this, but it is also the mark of our society that an attempt at least is made to understand the circumstances and motivation of the perpetrator.

 

As a society I think we need to understand why someone commits an horrendous crime, and from my reading of this article everything at the moment is conjecture. Understanding why someone acts as they do isn't the same as saying you need to 'walk in their shoes', nor is it exonerating them of personal responsibility, etc, etc...it should be an intelligent attempt to examine human behaviour: antecedent, behaviour and consequence. Again, this approach shouldn't marginalise or in some way 'blame' the victim either.

 

Don't know if any of this makes sense...

 

Bid :unsure:

Edited by bid

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This was .........BLEACH!.............however it happened this was,nt a peaceful end ,I mean if your gonna murder(kill kindly cos your at the end of your tether!)why not find a nicer way of doing it perhaps, ...........just gonna put my pitch fork back in the garage now ......Meethoss I,m trying now to think of a terrible illness that causes agonising pain every minute of the day and now trying to think how of a nicer way of other than bleach of ending my childs life ....just a worse case scenario of course..........your post is so wrong on so many levels :wallbash:

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No, I'm not making any assumptions. A woman fed her child bleach

 

That's an assumption. Probably a correct assumption, given that she's been arrested on suspicion of murder, but an assumption nonetheless, based on what the report actually says. He could have drunk it himself. He probably didn't, but he could have. It may have been in the wrong container & mistaken for something else. We don't know yet, & I see absolutely no point in this thread until we do.

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This is about my third attempt to post, as I've been finding it very difficult to express what I want to say without sounding sanctimonious, which is honestly not my intention! :ph34r:

 

Anyway, here goes...

 

It is absolutely right to condemn an act like this, but it is also the mark of our society that an attempt at least is made to understand the circumstances and motivation of the perpetrator.

 

As a society I think we need to understand why someone commits an horrendous crime, and from my reading of this article everything at the moment is conjecture. Understanding why someone acts as they do isn't the same as saying you need to 'walk in their shoes', nor is it exonerating them of personal responsibility, etc, etc...it should be an intelligent attempt to examine human behaviour: antecedent, behaviour and consequence. Again, this approach shouldn't marginalise or in some way 'blame' the victim either.

 

Don't know if any of this makes sense...

 

Bid :unsure:

 

I have spent the last couple of days thinking about this thread.

As far as I could gather it is possible that it was a complete accident.

My friend's son is profoundly ASD .It is very possible that he could drink bleach if he had access to it.He has drunk other thankfully less harmful things before. :sick:

I admit that the mum in this case may have been negligent in allowing her son access to bleach or she may even be guilty of neglect however I have not read any evidence which supports the theory that she forced her son to drink bleach.Unless I have missed something. :unsure:

 

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tried to post a more up to date link from the telegraph web page , not pleasant reading his mother has been charged with murder, tragic.

Edited by Suze

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Blimey, not much chance of a fair trial with prejudicial comments from the above article such as:

 

Another neighbour, Len McGuinness, said: “It was a time bomb waiting to go off. She was so aggressive to everybody. She did not want to speak to anybody, she just wanted to row.”

 

This case is now in court, such articles could result in contempt of court and the case being thrown out.

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That's an assumption. Probably a correct assumption, given that she's been arrested on suspicion of murder, but an assumption nonetheless, based on what the report actually says. He could have drunk it himself. He probably didn't, but he could have. It may have been in the wrong container & mistaken for something else. We don't know yet, & I see absolutely no point in this thread until we do.

 

 

 

the report states she gave the bleach to the child, my P won't put anything in his mouth unless he likes the taste. bleach is hydro poroxide acid mixed with powerful stomach acids the result,the lining of the stomach is burned away and if there is a gat reflex that mixture comes back up the osephagous and into the mouth burning the lining of the food canal and the mouth causing bleeding and terrible pain. as i said a dog years ago when i was a vet nurse swalloed some and was put to sleep,because of the terrible pain and damage done to it, thats a animal,this child is human. :wallbash:

Edited by sesley

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She sounds like one desperate woman, bringing up 2 autistic boys with no support from social services or those around her. I think the women who deliberately murder their children with evil intent are a very tiny minority

 

Although it must have been difficult for the neighbours, experiencing vandalism etc. It appears that no one showed any signs of friendship towards her. As an Asian woman with English neighbours, it is possible that she felt very alienated and this probably compounded her unhappiness.

 

I feel for her and her poor children.

 

Let's hope the truth comes out and she gets a fair trial, whichever way it goes.

 

 

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As a society I think we need to understand why someone commits an horrendous crime, and from my reading of this article everything at the moment is conjecture. Understanding why someone acts as they do isn't the same as saying you need to 'walk in their shoes', nor is it exonerating them of personal responsibility, etc, etc...it should be an intelligent attempt to examine human behaviour: antecedent, behaviour and consequence. Again, this approach shouldn't marginalise or in some way 'blame' the victim either.

I think you're right. This kind of thing does seem to happen from time to time, so understanding the causes may be a good way to prevent the circumstances that may lead to another disabled child being murdered.

 

But we don't know what happened. This woman may have been wrongly accused, which would be a terrible thing to happen.

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the report states she gave the bleach to the child

 

No. The original report in the first post doesn't state that. It stated that the child had ingested bleach and the mother had been arrested on suspicion of murder. Last I heard, it was still innocent until proven guilty, in this country, if not on this forum.

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Last I heard, it was still innocent until proven guilty, in this country, if not on this forum.

 

If only, huh? :whistle:

But I think other news reports did state the mother had given the child bleach - certainly some I read yesterday seemed pretty clear about that. It may well be that updated versions have been edited (for legal reasons?) but the whole question of 'trial by media' is far bigger than this (or any other) forum.

 

There seems to be some strange confusion about who the victim is in this case, and i can't help wondering whether introducing other variables (i.e. the person accused of murder being a father or a stepmother or foster carer...) would remove that confusion. I think it probably would, and I think that is a dangerously unrealistic (and dare i say hypocritical?) way of looking at things...

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited by baddad

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If only, huh? :whistle:

But I think other news reports did state the mother had given the child bleach - certainly some I read yesterday seemed pretty clear about that. It may well be that updated versions have been edited (for legal reasons?) but the whole question of 'trial by media' is far bigger than this (or any other) forum.

 

There seems to be some strange confusion about who the victim is in this case, and i can't help wondering whether introducing other variables (i.e. the person accused of murder being a father or a stepmother or foster carer...) would remove that confusion. I think it probably would, and I think that is a dangerously unrealistic (and dare i say hypocritical?) way of looking at things...

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Your assumption was based on the first report - the Telegraph report was much further down the thread, & even then only says 'allegedly'. I've made no comments on my own view of this, as I've tried to explain, none of us know what has happened & I think it is absolutely pointless discussing it until the trial has been held.

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Baddad,I dont think anyone is defending the mothers actions at all,and I dont think they think she is a victim.It is very clear her children were the victims.

But it does seem the pleas for help were ignored,whether she lied to SS and police or not,if there are clear signs of neglect or abuse and neighbours have reported the women these services should have taken these kids into care.That is a failing to both those boys.

 

As another person mentioned there are few people who kill there kids because they are evil,it is often because they are at a loss as to what to do(as I say for me personally there is no excuse!)There have recently been two reports on telly about mercy killings,one women who killed her daughter(I believe she was in her 20's) and another who killed her son ,dont remember the age.one was overdose of morphine and cant remember the boys case to well.So were these parents right?Yes this women used bleach,but we do not know what level of education she had,she may have been under the impression it will be quick and painless(no excuse though!!!!)

On the other side there are those who just seem evil,like the babyP,Victoria Climbia and the little girl who was starved to death.

 

I do think in the long run no matter what her sentence is she will pay with the knowledge she killed her own little boy,that to me must be torture!

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your post is so wrong on so many levels :wallbash:

 

Please explain this. I don't see how my post is wrong at all. I stated that we don't know the all the facts about this incident, that it was a terrible thing to have happened regardless of the cause and that nobody truly knows what they would do unless they were actually in such a severe situation (which may or may not have happened in this case). Please explain to me what is wrong here.

 

Justine sums it up well, and I think Baddad's later posts show a better reflection of what my point was. In no way did I excuse the behaviour of anyone murdering someone else, nor do I think mental illness is a "fair reason" or anything like that. However it IS necessary to recognise the factors that would lead up to something like this (if it was murder) so that something can be done in the future to prevent it. Simply marking someone evil and monstrous ignores those facts and allows similar crimes to continue. People need to think with their heads and not their hearts, no matter how terrible the crime, if they wish to actually gain something for society.

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Your assumption was based on the first report - the Telegraph report was much further down the thread, & even then only says 'allegedly'. I've made no comments on my own view of this, as I've tried to explain, none of us know what has happened & I think it is absolutely pointless discussing it until the trial has been held.

 

No, I didn't read the telegraph report from this link, I read an online news report just before posting... You wouldn't necessarilly know that, but if you'd read my two earlier posts you would have seen that both of them acknowledged the possibillity of this being an accident, as did Suze's post I quoted.

I'm going to bow out of this thread now, because I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of exchanging views about the innocence or otherwise of the mother so soon after a child has died such a terrible death. I do, though, stand by the point I've raised about the double standards that would be likely to apply if this related to any carer other than the mother and would reiterate my disgust at the suggestion that there is any inherent different 'judgement' to be applied because the child happened to be autistic.

 

Justine - I'm sorry, you seem to take a very simplistic view about 'evil' and/or someone being driven or 'at a loss' being polar opposites. There is a huge middleground that needs to be considered too, and making the neighbours or SS scapegoats (again) overlooks the very real and relevant points I've already highlighted: it is in no way as simple as 'SS would know and would have taken them into care'... I'm sure there are thousands of abused children in this country whose lives and opportunities would be better if SS were able to intervene. The negativity with which such intevention is viewed, together with ridiculous, ignorant blind assumptions about a child's 'place' being with its natural mother (or family) create the barriers that lead to this suffering. It's very easy to say what SS should have done after the event, but before the event the very same people attacking SS for non-intervention would have been attacking them for intervening.

 

As i've said, there's nothing really i can add to any of the above.

 

L&P

 

BD

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