what next??!!

[latmaz]

well following on our from our previous meltdown where ds ended up arrested he has since had another at school which has resulted in him being expelled

 

it was in the maths class which has been out of control for some time and about which i have complained a number of times. ds has shown improvement in every class except this one and in fact i complained about the teachers confrontational attitude to the head just 10days before this all happened!!

 

we have a referral for an ADOS assessment but apparently that could take 3months!! we had a meet with the youth offending officer who felt ds showed all the signs of having an ASD and said she would try and hurry up the ADOS

 

anyone else been down this road and has any advice as to what happens next and any suggestions?

 

i am at my wits end and i dont know how u all cope

 

thanks

[noogsy]

has he been tested for dyscalculia???

noogsy

[Sally44]

well following on our from our previous meltdown where ds ended up arrested he has since had another at school which has resulted in him being expelled

 

it was in the maths class which has been out of control for some time and about which i have complained a number of times. ds has shown improvement in every class except this one and in fact i complained about the teachers confrontational attitude to the head just 10days before this all happened!!

 

we have a referral for an ADOS assessment but apparently that could take 3months!! we had a meet with the youth offending officer who felt ds showed all the signs of having an ASD and said she would try and hurry up the ADOS

 

anyone else been down this road and has any advice as to what happens next and any suggestions?

 

i am at my wits end and i dont know how u all cope

 

thanks

 

 

There are a couple of organisations that can give you good advice. ACE.org, IPSEA.org. They should be able to tell you exactly what the procedure is - and make sure the school follow it. The LEA is also obliged to provide education and they should tell you what you should expect from the LEA. When you know what your rights are you should contact the LEA and speak to the person concerned and then follow that up with a letter.

 

Your LEA Parent Partnership can also help you. If you phone the LEA they will be able to give you their direct number. They do work for the LEA - so many question their impartiality. But they are there to support parents through the SEN and Exclusion system. So it is worth having them with you.

 

Does your LEA have an autism outreach teacher? Most LEAs do. Phone them and speak to them and ask if they need a formal diagnosis before they can become involved. I found out (after diagnosis), that mine could have come in as soon as they had concerns (which was 18 months previously). They don't have a huge amount of time to give to any one child. But in certain circumstances they might be able to come in once a fortnight to ensure that his current school is putting things into place and that he has the structure he needs.

 

If this is a mainstream school, you also need to consider whether this is the right school for your son. However to get a place at a special school or to get funding for your child over and above what the school receives requires a Statement of Special Educational Needs. You can request an assessment for a Statement at any time (just write to your LEA). However you don't have a diagnosis yet. You don't need one, but it helps.

 

What stage of the SEN process is your son. Is he at School Action Plus? Has the SALT and EP been in to see him?

 

I would write myself up a list of people to phone and action to take eg. who to phone etc. From this point onwards put everything in writing and always get written replies or send in a clarification letter.

[JsMum]

The school shouldnt be waiting for a DIAGNOSIS. The school should be addressing his needs now.

 

Also could the youth offender officer write a report and share his concerns that he is showing all the signs of ASD, could he put that in writing for you.

 

I would write to your local Educational SEN Department and explain your situation and that he has progressed in every lesson except MATHS and there clearly is a potential problem, especially if this Teacher is confrontational, My son needs very spersific management and handling, if it is not done that takes into account his ASD/ADHD needs then my son becomes extreamly aggressive too.

 

I would arrange a meeting as soon as possible.

 

Also get back to your GP and explain he needs an urgent ASD assessment and put it in writing so it is added to his medical notes.

 

JsMumxxx

 

[latmaz]

thanks everyone for the suggestions

 

thanks Jsmum have asked the youth justice lady to progress it but (typically) she is now on holiday til 6th april and i missed a call from her today whilst i was out. GP has chased the referral but will ask him again in light of the expulsion which he doesnt know about as yet

 

sally thanks will ask about autism outreach like u i thought he needed a diagnosis first so its useful to know i can talk to them anyways. have looked at the ACE website and took notes from there.

 

believe it or not but despite that all that has happened he isnt even on action plus let alone anything else, no behaviour support nothing. not even the SEN involved. an EP saw him approx 2 weeks ago at school but have had no report back from her as yet so no idea how that went

 

not even sure if an appeal is worth it as apparently its very rare for them to be overturned especially as there was violence involved (he bit a teacher) tho it does seem the fact that the school has not given even behaviour support after the last outburst at christmas does question their part in this

 

need to gird my loins and start phoning everyone AGAIN!!! tonight tho i think its vodka and chocolate <sigh>

 

thankyou all for your support and suggestions

 

 

[Kathryn]

Stressful situation. I'm assuming it's a permanent exclusion?

 

ACE's exclusion pack should help you work through the process and understand what your rights are and what the school /LEA should be doing. It might be worth ringing up ACE for a free pack as you can then highlight important bits in the guidance. There are some good paragraphs in the government guidance about exclusion, disability discrimination and pupils with SEN. It's unlawful to exclude a pupil for a releason related to their disability without just cause and the guidance also says that heads should make every effort to avoid excluding pupils with SEN.

 

If it's a permanent exclusion you have two chances to appeal - to the governors and then to the Independent Appeal Panel, at which you can also make a disability discrimination claim if relevant. Even if you don't think you have much of a chance, it may be worth formally challenging the exclusion, making the point that your son's behaviour may have been a result of unmet SEN. Whether or not the exclusion is overturned, your views will go on your son's record, which will be useful evidence that he needs support.

 

At the same time, now may be a good time to ask the LA to start the process of Statutory Assessment, which is the first step towards getting a statement.

 

K x

[latmaz]

yes its permanent

 

will ring ACE on monday to get the pack u suggested their website is very useful

 

because he has no formal diagnosis he is not treated as having an SEN which sort of makes things more difficult regarding that. my argument will be tho (as u say) that it was cos of an unmet SEN. iuseful to know that any appeal we do will go on his record as that could be useful in years to come when trying for a school/college etc

 

my ex husband has said he doesnt want to appeal so i have to persuade him to go along with this as he has joint parental custody

 

will also look into the process u mentioned with the LEA on monday

 

my phone list is getting longer by the day!!

 

x

[Sally44]

In the Code of Practice it says that ALL needs should be identified and met. That is part of the Statementing process. But look at the other sections about School Action and School Action Plus, it defines the different areas of need eg. academic, emotional, behavioural etc.

 

I have recently questioned whether a child NEEDS a formal diagnosis BEFORE that need is met. IPSEA inform me that that is not the case. If the child has a need it does not have to have a formal diagnosis BEFORE anything is done or supports put in place. So have a copy of the CoP as well when you are putting together any letters of complaint. As already said speak to ACE. IPSEA should also be able to advise. But these phones lines are difficult to get through on. ACE is always easier to speak to someone.

[Sally44]

Has your son been able to tell you why he bit the teacher??

If it does tie in with difficulties associated with his suspected diagnosis then say so.

And you've already said that after his previous episode nothing changed in school.

Is this school able to cope? If not then this is all evidence you would use as part of the Statementing process to seek an appropriate placement.

As he isn't even in the SEN process yet, just check with ACE about asking for an assessment towards a Statement now. This is an emergency situation, so I think you are covered. I'm sure Kathryn knows more about this and may post further.

[Karen A]

Has your son been able to tell you why he bit the teacher??

If it does tie in with difficulties associated with his suspected diagnosis then say so.

And you've already said that after his previous episode nothing changed in school.

Is this school able to cope? If not then this is all evidence you would use as part of the Statementing process to seek an appropriate placement.

As he isn't even in the SEN process yet, just check with ACE about asking for an assessment towards a Statement now. This is an emergency situation, so I think you are covered. I'm sure Kathryn knows more about this and may post further.

 

Hi.

It is possible to request a Stautary Assessment and be going through the process of diagnostic assessments at the same time.

There is provision within the COP for an urgent assessment of SEN where the situation justifies urgent action and permanent exclusion is one of the markers considered when looking at the urgency of the situation.

The LA have a responsibilty to provide alternative provision for pupils who are permanently excluded in the short and medium term [usually in a PRU].However in the long term they also provide support in finding a new school placement.In my opinion it would be logical for input to include a Statutary Asssessment so as to establish what sort of school would be appropriate and so avoid another exclusion.

Karen.

 

[latmaz]

as far as biting the teacher my understanding is that as he was throwing things around the teacher restrained him physically and thats when he bit him

 

am making notes from all your comments to assist me on monday when i ring various people

 

thank goodness u are all so knowledgeable and willing to help others, i would be lost otherwise

 

 

 

 

[Karen A]

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/_doc/6059/PI%20Guidance.pdf

This might be useful too.

There are specific circumsatnces in which restraint is considered justified.Staff should be trained in the safe use of restraint.A risk assessment should also be conducted for each individual pupil where it is known that restraint may need to be used.

That is a brief summary of a few points that may be helpful but it may well be worth reading the full document to clarify your specific situation.

 

 

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/wholeschool/b...our/discipline/

This page includes details of the only other situation where a teacher may be considered justified in the use of force [see ''power to discipline''].That is where it is considered that a pupil may cause damage to an individual including themself or school property or to be prejudicing the maintenance of good order and discipline at the school or among any pupils receiving education at the school, whether during a teaching session or otherwise.

Karen.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Karen A

[latmaz]

an update we went along to the pupil referral unit today who have said they have to conisder whether they can offer him a place in light of what occurred. so far ds is going tom and wed from 1-3 for assessments and integration, depending on how that goes they will let me know if he can go and how long for

 

have notified school of appeal and a few people have said they think we have a case but we shall see

 

have contacted all the people mentioned in this thread some of whom have been very useful thankfully

 

thanks again all no doubt there will be another update after easter

 

 

[JsMum]

because he has no formal diagnosis he is not treated as having an SEN which sort of makes things more difficult regarding that. My son was on the Special Needs Register from Nursery with no DX but his needs where clearly placed on there as Speech and language Disorder, Social and communication Difficulties/Disorder, Severe Behavioural, emotional and mental difficulties and in assessment of ADHD, SALT, Behavioural Team, he did not recieve a DX until SEVEN so does that then mean the school cant meet his needs until SEVEN, reality was even though he was on SEN reg, he still wasnt recieving the correct support until he was nine, and then we continued to increase his provision as he needed more support because the lack of support in early years had caused severe consequences to his learning, behavioural and increased his mental health difficulties.

 

Your school does not need a dx, you need to show he has behavioural, social, communication, mental, emotional impairments/difficulties.

 

Does your son recieve DLA at all? if so this would prove he has a Disability.

 

JsMumxx

 

[Sally44]

Does the pupil referal unit have staff trained in ASDs??

[JsMum]

Does the pupil referal unit have staff trained in ASDs??

My guess is No, but I do know in our area there is a HIGH proportion of children with UNDiagnosed Social and communication Disorders/Autism Spectrum Disorder/ADHD and the main reason why so many enter the PRU route, My son went to a Mental Health PRU and they redirected him back to mainstream school with no extra provision, so in some cases they just put them back into a mainstream setting, for those excluded the LEA find another mainstream setting that will take them, some LEAs get in earlier and do what is called a planned move, this just shifts the problem, their not dealing with it, in PRUs like ours are considered SPECIAL SCHOOL, when in reality they are not, as they are NOT accessing OT, SALT, Specialist services for Mental/psychological support, in the PRU J went to it had up to three Teachers who did pick up straight away Js Dyslexia, that took another three years to be formally DX, the unit was a positive experience for J in that it offered a much more quiter enviroment with smaller groups and the staff where very supportive and though he got the extra support he didnt progress acedmically, but he did become more settled as there is less sensory input, your lad may well benefit from the set up but its only tempary, J stayed for 10 months while he was been assessed for ADHD and Social and Communication Disorders which got identified but he was placed back into mainstream which didnt meet his needs that took another three years to fight, by which J was a very distressed young man which needs specialist services now, I know that our PRUs do a lot of good work but the system is still letting many down.

 

The stataistics are High for children who have been in PRUs to end up in the criminal system too and even higher for some of those to end up in the Local authority Care, the cure is in prevention and spending money a lot earlier than the authorities are doing, many of our kids in PRUs are identified but left with Suspected ASD/ADHD or they have traits and then left to fender in system that doesnt flow in their direction, some sadly sink.

 

JsMumxxx

 

Edited March 31, 2010 by JsMum

[latmaz]

no he dosent get DLA something i hadnt even thought of applying for. i guess up til now i always thought we needed a diagnosis before we could do anything but thanks to everyones input here i realise that is not the case

 

as far as whether they have ASD specialist i am not sure of this at the moment as only had a quick visit yesterday. as usual ds presented well and everyone was thinking umm how come this kid is here - am still trying to explain to ds that he must say what is in his head not what he thinks everyone wants him to say but its a slow process

 

dont think the planned move route is being considered in this case tho it was mentioned at one point. i guess this will have to await the outcome of our appeal

 

jsmum when i spoke to the youth offending team i was told that an awful lot of the youths they seen in 'prisons' are on the austistic spectrum but have been let down by the system - its sad isnt it but also highlights how we have to keep fighting for our kids, sadly some kids dont have parents that fight for them and get lost

 

 

[Sally44]

IF you are on the road to a diagnosis, I would seriously consider whether this unit can meet his needs. If they do not have an awareness and experience/trainingin ASDs, then the structure and approaches may not be suitable and his behaviour could even deteriorate. If he cannot be placed mainstream, and he has a diagnosis then ASD specific is better and the structure and approaches used there may reduce alot of this 'behaviour' everyone is struggling with. But you may need an educational psychologist to state that the behavioural unit is NOT suitable. You may find it difficult to get the LEA EP to do that because that may mean the LEA has to fund an ASD specific placement. So you may have to consider a private educational psychologist.

 

I know you have alot on your plate at the moment. But consider the above, because every child needs to be in the right educational environment for it to work. If you have any doubts I would seek advice from IPSEA, or ACE or the NAS about agreeing to this placement. Once in, you may find it very hard to get your child out again.

[Karen A]

IF you are on the road to a diagnosis, I would seriously consider whether this unit can meet his needs.

 

Hi Sally.I am not sure you understand what PRUs are so thought I would try and explain.

PRUs are the only short term provision offered to pupils who are permanently excluded.The LA have to provide a certain level of provision for pupils who are permanently excluded.Parents do not really have any choice regarding what is offered.

 

A PRU is not a long term solution.It is a stop gap until an alternative long term placement is found.

A child has to attend educational provision unless a parent decides to de-register which would IMO be very unwise as it would remove from the LA the responsibility to do anything.

 

So a parent has I think very little say regarding whether a PRU can meet a child's needs.

In any case in the current situation I think it highly unlikely that provision where staff have specfic training in ASD would be very keen to offer a place.

The basic facts are that this child does not have a current diagnosis of anything and has bitten a member of staff and been permanetly excluded from their previous school.

Without an ASD diagnosis or a Statement of SEN it is very unlikely that specialist provision would want to offer a school place in this situation.

To look at the issue another way as the parent of a child with ASD would you want school to be offering a place to a child who had been permanently excluded from a previous school having bitten a member of staff because some people including the parents thought the child might have AS.

 

latmaz.

Sorry if that sounded unhelpful as that is not what I intended.

I think your best current options are to appeal against the exclusion as Kathryn suggests.

Also consider requesting a Statutary Assessment yourself.

IPSEA have a draft letter on their web site that I will post for you.

 

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/What-you-need-to-k...stingAssessment

 

Parents usually have some say in whether they consider provision to be appropriate if their child has SEN.However once a child is permanently excluded I think in the short term there may be little option other than to accept the provision [probably PRU] put in place by the LA.

 

If after appeal it is decided that the exclusion is upheald then you can still be assertive in discussions with the LA regarding your wish to find another school that will be able to meet your child's needs.

 

I hope that is helpful.

ACE provide some excellent individual telephone advice.They are very experienced in dealing with both SEN and exclusion.I think it would also be worth giving them a call.

 

The exclusion advice line is on this page.

http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/advice-about-education-for-parents

 

Karen.

Karen.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Karen A

[Karen A]

dont think the planned move route is being considered in this case tho it was mentioned at one point. i guess this will have to await the outcome of our appeal

 

I think a planned move is one of the options where permanent exclusion may be considered in future but where the situation has not reached that stage.It is unlikely to be offered where the school considers there are grounds for exclusion .Perhaps the situation might change if the appeal is succesful and it is agreed the current school is not a good option.

In any case a planned move would still be likely to be a move to another mainstream school.I think if a child has SEN Statutary Assessment to establish exactly what the child's needs are and what placement would be appropriate to meet those needs would still be a better option.

 

Karen.

 

I have edited having double checked my facts.

A plannned move can be negotiated when a school agrees to the option as an alternative to permanent exclusion and withdraws the permanent exclusion.However it would still be a planned move to another mainstream school.

I think it is still worth requesting a Statutary Assessment though.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Karen A

[Karen A]

I had another idea.

It may also be worth contacting whoever is offering the ADOS.

If you explain the current situation and are willing to accept a cancellation at short notice perhaps you could obtain an appoitment sooner than the original expected waiting time.

It may also be worth asking the YOT to advocate on your behalf.

Karen.

[Karen A]

no he dosent get DLA something i hadnt even thought of applying for. i guess up til now i always thought we needed a diagnosis before we could do anything but thanks to everyones input here i realise that is not the case

 

as far as whether they have ASD specialist i am not sure of this at the moment as only had a quick visit yesterday. as usual ds presented well and everyone was thinking umm how come this kid is here - am still trying to explain to ds that he must say what is in his head not what he thinks everyone wants him to say but its a slow process

 

The other thing worth bearing in mind is that if the PRU are providing integration and assessments they may be obtaining for you some very helpful information even if the staff are not specifically ASD trained.

It may well be worth working with the PRU.If nothing else it demonstrates that you are involved supportive parents and are willing to work with those supporting your child.This may be very positive when planning for longer term placement.

 

]What happens now?

You must receive a letter from the school telling you the reasons for the exclusion. For the first five days you are responsible for your child and must make sure they are not in a public place during school hours. The school should set and mark work during this time. From the sixth day the local authority where you live must provide full-time alternative education for your child. This is likely to be in a pupil referral unit. Your LA should also be assessing your child and drawing up a longer-term reintegration plan for a new school or other placement[/i]

From ACE information.

 

 

Karen.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Karen A

[latmaz]

thankyou both for your further comments, sorry i didnt realise they were here as i didnt get notification and have been very busy over easter

 

have tried to speak to ACE a few times but constantly get sorry all advisors are busy etc. YOT put an EWO onto us who was very helpful and also felt that our appeal has a good chance of being successful so we are pursuing that altho he may not go back to that school even if we win unless they put something in place to meet his needs. i have spent all day doing a timeline showing where they constantly have not followed up their own suggestions. in fact by the time i finished it made me realise even more how let down we were

 

regarding the bite we still dont know how this came about as we havent had a statement from the school. it may well be that the maths teacher (whose attitude i complained about) grabbed ds aggressively and lets be honest who wouldnt fight back

 

he has been twice t othe PRU for a couple hours each time and they are hopefully going to offer some more hours after easter

 

have contacted the ADOS people but have not had a reply but thats on my list to chase tomorrow too. the YOT are also pressing for this to be done sooner (as is my MP!)

 

its been extremely stressful lately not helped by the ex hub and his unhelpful attitude but its nice to have the support of everyone here

 

hope everyone has a lovely easter break

x

[latmaz]

spoke to the ADOS assessment people and they are quoting 18 weeks before he can be seen! i almost burst into tears there and then on the phone

 

also went drs this morning who has tried to refer us 3 times. first he was told 'school have to refer', then the 'patient does not fit criteria', then that it has to come from TASCC (who are disbanded anyways now). he is as frustrated as us but for some reason in our area he just cannot refer, he has offered to write again but we dont hold out much hope. we know this is true cos he has shown us all the letters he has received back so we are not getting the run around from him

 

am now thinking maybe i should consider paying for a private assessment to speed things along. does anyone have any recommendations for essex/london/suffolk area?

 

the ex is insisting on taking ds to a hypnotherapist which at this point i think is not a good idea as we dont know what we are dealing with so i need to get some dx FAST cos hes back to refusing to belive there is any problem and its all in ds 'head'