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NobbyNobbs

how long did you kid last in school with no support?

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K is due to start school in september and as far as we know she will have no support. shes on early years action plus at nursery, but we haven't seen the woman from that for about 5 months now and last time we spoke to her she thought k was doing fine and she didn't see any problems... i picked K up from nursery this week and found her rolling on the floor screaming with all her clothes off! cos thats normal behaviour :wallbash:

 

how long did it take your new school starters to get into a big enough mess that the school admitted support was needed?

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DS made it through reception year with us saying there was a problem and the school denying it, but by year 1 the teacher called in ed pysch almost on the first day.

 

I guess it depends on what traits your child shows (violence will usually get help quicker than passivity) and what kind of teacher they have - foundation national curric is very much still playing to learn.

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Hi

Well my situation is quite different in that I have moved alot making it difficult to have even got a dx for Sam in the first place.When he started reception at age four he wasnt causing any problems persay,he did cling on to one boy and he had to go into class with him in the mornings other than that he was okay.School (1) didnt really say there is any problems just that he was a little shy.

 

Then we moved and he started hitting other kids but not to the point where he needed help,there were other kids with that same behaviour,but the teacher was concerned about the fact he was "odd" and he was able to talk very advanced making it harder for the kids his age to understand him.So I was asked by school (2) to see a GP but then I moved again!

 

At the next school(3) he was thriving,in the first three weeks he was restless and hit someone,but after that he was great,the class sizes were really small(just 7 kids in his class) as it was a village school.The teacher was so impressed with his computer skills and while at the other schools he seemed to make little progress at school (3) each week he seemed to be improving more and more.So I was surprised to see they had nothing to report when I went for parents evening.I believe they thought because I had left their dad and had been moved around now that we were settled he was fine.

 

Then we had to move again(the village was very racist and actually quite rough area.)I managed to get them back into school (2) he was now 5 1/2 and in yr1.He become more and more restless and not making any progress.They then put him on SA and had an IEP done for him.This was for three mths then it was summer holidays,during which time I took him to the GP who then referred him to a paed.

 

That was last year,he then started yr 2 in September age 6.He moved to SA+ in November and while they recognised he needed extra help they said the ed psych etc wont come until he has a dx.He got his dx in Dec,before this he had been excluded twice.Then in January they asked me to do flexi schooling,so now he goes half day.It took two mths to get the ed psych and autism outreach in(March) and now we are applying for a STAT ASSES.He also has a 1:1 TA who came in at end of March. So I would say from when his behaviour got more disruptive it took 6mths to get the help.Even now it is clear he cannot be in a mainstream school and the HT is supporting me all the way,so that is good.

 

I would say push for the help early,my son was doing quite alright for 2years at school but then things changed and things have gone from bad to worse,best to have everything in place early the better chance she will have at remaining in mainstream.

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well she can be very violent, and is totally non-compliant so i can't see them managing her for very long. she throws furniture, screams for hours on end, slaps/punches people, has started biting people to 'get them back' for earlier slights... my worry with the foundation stage curriculum is that they'll just leave her in a corner in her own little world because its easier than trying to get her to comply and since there is less structure that would be acceptable.

 

her nursery are great in general but just dont seem to get that they need to speak up about her behaviour to help her. the day we picked her up minus her clothes (she was in vest and trousers having taken off her shirt, shoes and socks) they said 'she didn't want to wear them and we couldn't get her to put them back on' but in meetings just say everythings fine and that she complies with their requests most of the time.

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In my case ... a few minutes (literally) :whistle::tearful: I just couldn't cope with other children around me and had no idea how to interact with them. Additionally, I performed so vastly differently in different subjects that teachers were convinced I was trying to be difficult (would I? :devil:). Unfortunately they were still allowed to smack children when I was in my first school and I was too often on the receiving end of the head's plimsolls. :(

 

Unfortunately things were very different for me than the situations many parents discuss on here of struggling to get a dx - with me, my schools regularly noted many non-academic issues, wrote these into horrible (but probably accurate) reports about me and the health visitor also expressed concerns about my development, but my mother wouldn't accept what was said. I was moved schools regularly - not because of lack of support, but ironically because they were trying to find out what the issues were and support me. :(

 

Is K moving from a nursery attached to the school into the 'big school'? If so, it would be worthwhile the new class teacher having some time to observe her in her nursery setting (this might be possible even if a different school). It sounds like both K and her new teacher will need support in the beginning. One strategy I've seen tried (but some parents really don't like this and it depends on lots of factors) is that K starts a few days into term so she's going into a more controlled situation than things might seem on a first day. Would it be possible to work with K on making a book about moving to big school? Maybe she could go in to visit and take some photos to go in her book. It could also be social story based with bits about behaviour/rules.

 

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we dont know what school she's going to yet due to complications but there aren't any linked with the nursery. until we know where she's going to be going we can't really start preparing her for it, but we've already shown her all the local school uniforms so she can see what colour she might be wearing. problem now is she's picked out what one she likes and is going to have an absolute fit if thats not the one she ends up with! the visit thing sounds like a great idea, but i'm not sure how it would play out as in general K isn't too difficult in nursery because they dont try to get her to do anything. shes an absolutely lovely little girl, very playful and loving... until you ask her to do something and then all hell breaks loose.

 

she loves rules... but will only accept them applied to others. she doesn't view herself as the same as the other children and mostly seems to think shes an adult. she'll happily recite rules but when you ask her to follow one you get the response 'but i dont want to' and thats it.

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Hi,

 

I wouldn't wait for the teachers to do it; I would be putting in a parental request now for a statutory assessment. You already have a dignosis and I would seriously hope that the pre-school have logged any serious incidents and you can get a copy of those to show how difficult it has been.

 

Do you have any speech and language reports? Is she receiving speech and language input? Anything really which documents her difficulties will help with the process. There are also independent portage Educational Psychologists who could go in and observe her and write a report.

 

Sincerely, I would not wait one moment more, because the process can take a while and it's awful having to take them every day when they are not coping.

 

For many reasons (especially pressure from elsewhere) schools will not always pursue an assessment, even though it is so obvious to you that she needs help. Professionals often won't suggest special schools either and they can be a good place for the early years, with a strong emphasis on gaining cooperation, staying on task skills and social skills like sharing/taking turns. Able children can be integrated back into mainstream at a later date, often at junior school age. Just a thought, in case it has never been mentioned to you!

 

I know someone who just recently has been granted an assessment as soon as she herself requested it, even though she had been asking the school about it for 2 1/2 years!

 

Best Wishes

 

Grace/x

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J never had any support throughout his whole school experience, right up till we pulled him out at the beginning of Y5. This was despite increasing behavioural problems and extreme violence - he was famously described by his first head teacher as 'the most violent child with Asperger's I've ever known', but still she wouldn't put in support for him although she knew he wasn't safe and other children weren't safe around him. She claimed her budget wouldn't run to it :wallbash:

 

Staff started raising concerns as soon as he joined Reception but they never called in an Ed Psych. Still in the process of identifying his problem I was very unaware of autism at that point and ill-equipped to know what to ask for. I suppose I still trusted school to know what to do, but they didn't and in fact on many levels made matters far worse. I even have a letter from his head teacher following one particularly unpleasant incident, which outlined her intent to discriminate against him by not including him in similar events in the future because he clearly couldn't cope. We eventually got the Ed Psych involved but only for a specific piece of work on his anger (which we had to fight for) and this only lasted a few weeks because he then moved schools.

 

To be blunt, J's support needs were ignored because his academic ability was so high. It was assumed that he was clever enough to know right from wrong - and indeed he did, he just couldn't act on that understanding in the heat of the moment. He desperately needed help but didn't get any. I was fobbed off countless times when I talked about statutory assessment and when I put in my own application it was rejected outright, based on the one-line report of an Ed Psych who'd never met him, never been to a meeting about him and to my knowledge had never even read a report about him.

 

We tried another school with a strong reputation for supporting children with ASDs but once again he was ignored and neglected despite mounting evidence that he couldn't cope without support. In the end I reached the conclusion that he was never going to be supported within this LEA and was in fact being harmed, and that was when I brought him out to home educate. It means I have to pay for therapies but at least he's getting them and is thriving.

 

What I'm saying is that there are no guarantees, and your child could go a very long time without support despite needs being recognised by the school. I would advise not to depend on school to push for support because it costs them money that they'd rather not spend - even the best and most supportive schools are bound by finance. You may be lucky and have a school that will recognise and act on your daughter's difficulties but you just don't know.

 

Karen

x

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Hi nobby nobbs -

 

I don't think there can be a definitive answer to this one, because there's no real definitive answer to what 'support' means, and because every kid varies regarding how much/what type of support they need.

 

There are many adults on the forum who were dx'd years after they left school and who would have received no 'targetted' or direct support whatsoever, but their school experiences/results may be comparable - or in some cases even better - than some children dx'd very early and supported with IEP's and TA's etc throughout their school careers. One good teacher with good intuition may be in some cases far more supportive than a whole school full of highly trained autism 'experts' and personal TA's if their training has just left them feeling that they know everything and can do no wrong and who have no intuitive skills whatsoever (or - even worse, have terrible intuitive skills but believe that intuition is everything - something that effects many parent's thinking, IMO).

 

Thinking back to my own far from illustrious skool kareer I find it quite surprising that the teachers who I remember best and who got the most from me were actually the ones who gave me a harder time. That's because they had expectations of me, and when I didn't live up to them they didn't patronise me and when I did they rewarded me with praise. There were other teachers who just gave me a hard time (who I loathed and detested) and some female teachers I absolutely adored :wub: for, hem hem, non-academic reasons who taught me absolutely nowt! :lol:

Of course, that was a mainstream environment with one teacher and no such thing as classroom assistants or IEP's or whatever, but I think the 'rule' probably holds true in any environment - A good teacher engages with and inspires kids better than a not so good or bad one does, and anything else is just secondary icing on the cake. I think the teacher / child relationship can vary enormously too - one child's perfect teacher will be completely the wrong one for another child and visa versa. Like all relationships, it's down to personality and personal preference. That said, though, the really bad teachers usually shine out like a beacon of s*** - are almost universally despised and generally teach PE :whistle::devil::lol:

Of course, some kids like PE... which just goes to prove it takes all sorts...

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Baddad I have to say I disagree with you slightly.I do agree if the child has the right teacher they may never need additional help/support and will come out the other side just fine,but I would say more often than not this does not happen and it is not solely down to the teacher.

My son cant cope in mainstream even with all the support simply because they are not consistant enough and the class sizes are to big for him,noise is a huge factor in his case.Schools say they are meant to have(for my sons age)1adult(TA or teacher)for every 10 but sometimes my sons class of 27 have just the teacher,to me this is unacceptable.

 

I also dont agree with your comparrison of adults with autism going through their school life without support as being a good thing,after all we talking of a completely different era.I believe most children who went to school before the ninetees had to do well or at least achieve something because they were disciplined harshly(smacked) often not only at school but in the home too.There was also much less understanding of SEN and so because IEP's etc did not exist one would never know how those children may have benefitted.

 

Saying all that,I do think that children should be given a chance to try and succeed without the support but it really depends on the child.Sam went two years without an IEP because he didnt need one and we were going through so many other things I couldnt see how it would have helped anyway.Even now I have to say he doesnt benefit from a TA or IEP but that could again be down to this school and the fact that he did go two years without it and cant understand why he needs it now.

I think the case of the OP the little girl will benefit from early intervention just from what I have read about her in the past,that is not to say its the same for all kids.

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Oops - obviously expressed it badly somewhere along the line! Wasn't suggesting that a good teacher negated the need for appropriate support - I was just highlighting that there are all sorts of factors that needed to be drawn into the equations and that, therefore, there were no universal answers. I mentioned adult autistics and their experiences to highlight that, not to suggest that support wasn't needed or desirable.

Totally agree that support in schools is generally a must have - I'm a big advocate for statements rather than school action plus or whatever and very vocal about the need for good, clear communication between home and school. But I'm also a firm believer in holistic assessment and needs led support rather than support by numbers, which is why I posted to say that there are no definitive answers.

Hope that's clearer :lol:

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Oh PS: would also add with absolutely no connection to the OP and K (or anyone else, come to that) but just as a general observation that you could have ten teachers to one kid, but if for whetever reason there was no expectation on the kid or because home/school communication (and therefore commitment) broke down you could still end up with a kid for whom school was a total waste of time.

 

:D

Edited by baddad

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Baddad I have to say I disagree with you slightly.I do agree if the child has the right teacher they may never need additional help/support and will come out the other side just fine,but I would say more often than not this does not happen and it is not solely down to the teacher.

My son cant cope in mainstream even with all the support simply because they are not consistent enough and the class sizes are to big for him,noise is a huge factor in his case.

I think the issue is (partly) that contexts have changed dramatically even over the last 15 years or so. Schools are noisy, busy environments nowadays, with lots of technology, lots of interactive doobrees, lots of colour, movement etc etc. The changes in many ways reflect changes in society generally and changes in what holds children's attention and engages them (or is thought to engage them - that's a discussion for another thread... :rolleyes:). For many children this is fine, but for any child who is more easily overwhelmed or distracted, this isn't most conducive to learning.

 

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Oops - obviously expressed it badly somewhere along the line! Wasn't suggesting that a good teacher negated the need for appropriate support - I was just highlighting that there are all sorts of factors that needed to be drawn into the equations and that, therefore, there were no universal answers. I mentioned adult autistics and their experiences to highlight that, not to suggest that support wasn't needed or desirable.

Totally agree that support in schools is generally a must have - I'm a big advocate for statements rather than school action plus or whatever and very vocal about the need for good, clear communication between home and school. But I'm also a firm believer in holistic assessment and needs led support rather than support by numbers, which is why I posted to say that there are no definitive answers.

Hope that's clearer :lol:

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Oh PS: would also add with absolutely no connection to the OP and K (or anyone else, come to that) but just as a general observation that you could have ten teachers to one kid, but if for whetever reason there was no expectation on the kid or because home/school communication (and therefore commitment) broke down you could still end up with a kid for whom school was a total waste of time.

 

:D

Thank you I am sorry I misunderstood :unsure: Point well taken :thumbs:

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we have high expectations for K, she's not going to get away with anything if we think she is capable of achieving it but... most of the time she's not on the same planet as the rest of us, and that makes it very difficult to get through to her.

 

the kind of support i think she needs is more along the lines of 'interpreter' than anything else. the ONLY way to get K to do something is to negotiate reality until it fits her mind. if you tell her to put on her shoes she'll say no. but if she's singing a song about crocodiles at the time she'll put her shoes on without a thought if you tell her she needs to put on her shoes to join in the crododile dance. she's so deeply into her own world that reality seems to baffle her most of the time and she has trouble dealing with sudden transitions from her world back to reality and that results in a fight. sounds a bit odd but i know what i mean! she's insanely smart and when she's there with you she'll learn something in an instant and it's fixed in her mind forever (she learnt to tell time in 10 minutes and can glance at your watch and tell you it correctly every time apparently without effort), but those moments are few and far between.

 

because she's so happy (if very noisy) in her own world i would think theres a good chance the teacher will very quickly learn that if she wants to get anything done with the rest of the kids its best to leave K to it. not good for Ks education. she hates loud noise and confusion and if kids are running around seems to have a burning need to launch herself at them punching, so playtime could be interesting

 

we do an awful lot of work with her at home (its our job after all!) but we've made little progress so either we're doing something wrong or its going to be a long job.

 

oh and... i was a late dx with no support in school and completely agree about the teachers. the years i had good teachers i was absolutely fine, the bad years... well.. in year 2 i cried every day because i was so scared.

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Hi nobby nobbs -

 

I don't think there can be a definitive answer to this one, because there's no real definitive answer to what 'support' means, and because every kid varies regarding how much/what type of support they need.

 

There are many adults on the forum who were dx'd years after they left school and who would have received no 'targetted' or direct support whatsoever, but their school experiences/results may be comparable - or in some cases even better - than some children dx'd very early and supported with IEP's and TA's etc throughout their school careers. One good teacher with good intuition may be in some cases far more supportive than a whole school full of highly trained autism 'experts' and personal TA's if their training has just left them feeling that they know everything and can do no wrong and who have no intuitive skills whatsoever (or - even worse, have terrible intuitive skills but believe that intuition is everything - something that effects many parent's thinking, IMO).

 

Thinking back to my own far from illustrious skool kareer I find it quite surprising that the teachers who I remember best and who got the most from me were actually the ones who gave me a harder time. That's because they had expectations of me, and when I didn't live up to them they didn't patronise me and when I did they rewarded me with praise. There were other teachers who just gave me a hard time (who I loathed and detested) and some female teachers I absolutely adored :wub: for, hem hem, non-academic reasons who taught me absolutely nowt! :lol:

Of course, that was a mainstream environment with one teacher and no such thing as classroom assistants or IEP's or whatever, but I think the 'rule' probably holds true in any environment - A good teacher engages with and inspires kids better than a not so good or bad one does, and anything else is just secondary icing on the cake. I think the teacher / child relationship can vary enormously too - one child's perfect teacher will be completely the wrong one for another child and visa versa. Like all relationships, it's down to personality and personal preference. That said, though, the really bad teachers usually shine out like a beacon of s*** - are almost universally despised and generally teach PE :whistle::devil::lol:

Of course, some kids like PE... which just goes to prove it takes all sorts...

 

L&P

 

BD :D

Spot on, Baddad! I totally agree with you.

My son's experience confirms your views. He was home educated after year 1 until the year 5 when he went back to school and had a very good, empathic, intuitive teacher. He loved going to school very much to the extent that he counted the days of holidays (usually is other way around! :blink:). He also achieved well academically (3a in literacy) in a class of 35 children without his own TA. The teacher spoted the nature of his disabilities, didn't shout at him, just being firm and encouraging at the same time.

This year- different story. Although he has now TA for 21 hours in the class of 17 children he has not been so keen to go to school. With all the preassures of his teacher he didn't progress academically. To be fair, his year 6 teacher seems that now she is trying to learn more how to help him in more constractive way now after a lot of my son's tears, talks and negotiations (I had to be VERY diplomatic in order she not to take my suggestions as criticism). I suppose we all have to learn and to ajust to each other, hopefully ;). However, sometimes even with all the efforts this is not possible. :( It all depends on the teacher's personality and intuition rather than 'expertise' in ASD.

 

Danaxxx

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K is due to start school in september and as far as we know she will have no support. shes on early years action plus at nursery, but we haven't seen the woman from that for about 5 months now and last time we spoke to her she thought k was doing fine and she didn't see any problems... i picked K up from nursery this week and found her rolling on the floor screaming with all her clothes off! cos thats normal behaviour :wallbash:

 

how long did it take your new school starters to get into a big enough mess that the school admitted support was needed?

 

I'm sure you already know that you don't need to wait for school to raise concerns. If you feel she is unable to cope, or will be unable to cope without support, or needs a special school then you can ask for an assessment now. If she is on school action plus I presume she already has targets to meet. Is she meeting those? Are they SMART?

 

My son started having problems when he moved from traditional nursery (where he could do what he wanted), to a more structure pre-school environment at age 3+.

 

I raised concerns and was fobbed off by everyone. When he started school I told them I thought he was totally unprepared for it and did not have any of the skills needed for school eg. he had never coloured or drawn, could not listen or understand etc.

 

It took school 6 months before they called me in to raise their concerns. (He would have been around 5 then). Then sent referals to SALT and EP and he was referred to the communicate clinic at the childrens hospital. It took around 18 months for a formal diagnosis. Then another 2 years to get a Statement.

 

Does she have a formal diagnosis yet??

 

I think the biggest thing to factor in is the time it takes to get anything done. And even when your child has a Statement I have found my own LEA's staff very resistent to acknowledging needs. Eg. I raised concerns about dyslexia when he was 6. He has been finally diagnosed at 9.3 years old!! I wrote a formal complaint to the EP service asking why it was taking them years to identify this need.

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Didnt get an support at school, my aspergers wasnt recognised until my final year of secondary school. Even then no support provisions were provided.

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unfortunately we can't ask for an assessment. in Ks case thats the social workers choice and since social workers have a bizarre need to only listen to people with a piece of paper claiming they supposedly know more about the kid than the people who live with her... its not happening at the moment.

 

so for us it is literally a case of waiting for it to fall apart :( we're doing as much as we can/know how to do. we talked about school and the expectations of the teachers a lot, but K just sees this as a challenge and seems to be gearing up for a fight. so we've given up on that one for now. she already has the school uniform basics and has tried them on, but without a school place i've run out of ideas on what to do.

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unfortunately we can't ask for an assessment. in Ks case thats the social workers choice and since social workers have a bizarre need to only listen to people with a piece of paper claiming they supposedly know more about the kid than the people who live with her... its not happening at the moment.

 

so for us it is literally a case of waiting for it to fall apart :( we're doing as much as we can/know how to do. we talked about school and the expectations of the teachers a lot, but K just sees this as a challenge and seems to be gearing up for a fight. so we've given up on that one for now. she already has the school uniform basics and has tried them on, but without a school place i've run out of ideas on what to do.

 

That just sounds bizzare?? So because this child is fostered you cannot request an assessment towards a Statement? What diagnosis, if any does she currently have?? Maybe the route via the GP maybe possible?? Afterall it is a medical concern, "the childs development" etc - which I presume you are responsible for?? So if you have concerns could you raise them with your GP for them to refer her on??

 

The professionals that my son saw were mostly via the NHS (eg. SALT, Paediatrician, Clinical Psychologist, OT). Only the Educational Psychologist came via the school. Is that a route that might be open??

 

Have you raised your concerns with Social Services and what have they said? Has anyone queried this with either the NAS or IPSEA?? I would think SS have a responsibility to ensure her needs are recognised and met.

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That just sounds bizzare?? So because this child is fostered you cannot request an assessment towards a Statement? What diagnosis, if any does she currently have?? Maybe the route via the GP maybe possible?? Afterall it is a medical concern, "the childs development" etc - which I presume you are responsible for?? So if you have concerns could you raise them with your GP for them to refer her on??

it is one of those awful conflicts when you care for a child as a job. we have to work with the social worker, and potentially will work with her again if another one of her cases is placed here so we have to not annoy her excessively... but sometimes thats not what we would be doing if the child weren't fostered. that said, a poor relationship with the social worker is even more harmful to the child (we have one social worker we wont take placements from at all because he is terrible and has openly admitted he has no interest in the job/children and is just waiting out his pension)

 

she has another child development assessment this week, then psychological profiling which should be very interesting. no dx for anything but a general consensus that although we dont know what is wrong something certainly is and its spectrum-y. we're currently trying to get permission for me to submit a report to Ks review based on her educational/behavioural stuff to try and wake up the Early years person. my mom has the memory of a goldfish and no matter how many times i explain the SEN setup she cant remember it. i suspect since K was referred to action plus for emotional/behavioural issues they're failing to take into account that she has made no academic progress and her only social/behavioural progress is that she doesn't hit the other kids quite as often. she has, however, started spitting and kicking :wallbash: which will go down well at school.

 

i dug out her action plus paperwork and there are no targets/goals that are actually measurable. it is purely 'the nursery need to spend more time doing this or that'. the only one that actually refers to something K should be doing is that apparently she needs to be forced to spend more time discussing her emotions. there is nothing that mentions actual progress that will be of any use to her (she can't/wont write her name, can't be moved from one activity to another without a tantrum, wont join in with group games/activities, wont eat her lunch, wont wear her uniform)

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unfortunately we can't ask for an assessment. in Ks case thats the social workers choice and since social workers have a bizarre need to only listen to people with a piece of paper claiming they supposedly know more about the kid than the people who live with her... its not happening at the moment.

 

so for us it is literally a case of waiting for it to fall apart :( we're doing as much as we can/know how to do. we talked about school and the expectations of the teachers a lot, but K just sees this as a challenge and seems to be gearing up for a fight. so we've given up on that one for now. she already has the school uniform basics and has tried them on, but without a school place i've run out of ideas on what to do.

 

i thought it was against the law to refuse an assessment?

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i thought it was against the law to refuse an assessment?

No its not,thats why so many parents on here fight so hard for this to be done.If they refuse you can appeal the decision though,but it can take months or even years to finalise everything.

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UPDATE -

 

K was seen again at child development and it was a total success.

 

the first person we saw was the speech and language therapist who had previously suggested a mild delay in language due to not being talked to as a young child. but the story this time was totally different.

 

shes now been assessed as having semantic language problems, word finding problems (can't access the right word so uses anything she comes across) and tracking problems in conversation which is why she talks utter nonsense. she talks round and round as a delaying tactic because she can't find the right word and then gets distracted by the nonsense coming out and forgets what it was she was trying to say in the first place. she also uses repeated phrases/words in place of correct speech to compensate for her problems. the old 'spikey profile' was trotted out and she commented that she felt the difficulties were a significant problem rather than just underdeveloped because they were in a very unusual grouping that isn't seen with underdeveloped speech. shes being referred to a speech therapist and will need 'significant support' at school to enable her to express herself, particularly with reference to the teacher taking extra time when asking K a question as it will take her far longer to be able to answer as she can't find the words and being supportive when she uses the wrong word but clearly knows the answer.

 

when we got to seeing the pediatrician we explained our concerns about her behaviours etc and she agreed that there was likely a problem. she's being referred for a social communication assessment with a view to diagnosing (but didn't say what with) but explained that this might not be successful at this point because her case is complicated by her life experiences and previous upbringing.

they're on the case with extra support for school and are going to contact the action plus woman and tell her she needs to review Ks case and factor in learning/communication/social difficulties as well as the emotional/behavioural ones theyre currently looking at. theyre also going to contact nursery and ask them to step up getting K to do things she doesn't want to. the nursery is child-led which has been great because it means less conflict, but K is neglecting certain essential skills because she wont do anything she isn't instantly good at and this needs to be worked on.

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UPDATE -

 

K was seen again at child development and it was a total success.

 

the first person we saw was the speech and language therapist who had previously suggested a mild delay in language due to not being talked to as a young child. but the story this time was totally different.

 

shes now been assessed as having semantic language problems, word finding problems (can't access the right word so uses anything she comes across) and tracking problems in conversation which is why she talks utter nonsense. she talks round and round as a delaying tactic because she can't find the right word and then gets distracted by the nonsense coming out and forgets what it was she was trying to say in the first place. she also uses repeated phrases/words in place of correct speech to compensate for her problems. the old 'spikey profile' was trotted out and she commented that she felt the difficulties were a significant problem rather than just underdeveloped because they were in a very unusual grouping that isn't seen with underdeveloped speech. shes being referred to a speech therapist and will need 'significant support' at school to enable her to express herself, particularly with reference to the teacher taking extra time when asking K a question as it will take her far longer to be able to answer as she can't find the words and being supportive when she uses the wrong word but clearly knows the answer.

 

when we got to seeing the pediatrician we explained our concerns about her behaviours etc and she agreed that there was likely a problem. she's being referred for a social communication assessment with a view to diagnosing (but didn't say what with) but explained that this might not be successful at this point because her case is complicated by her life experiences and previous upbringing.

they're on the case with extra support for school and are going to contact the action plus woman and tell her she needs to review Ks case and factor in learning/communication/social difficulties as well as the emotional/behavioural ones theyre currently looking at. theyre also going to contact nursery and ask them to step up getting K to do things she doesn't want to. the nursery is child-led which has been great because it means less conflict, but K is neglecting certain essential skills because she wont do anything she isn't instantly good at and this needs to be worked on.

Sounds great :thumbs: You are finally getting somewhere,I do hope they can get everything in place for when she starts school >:D<<'>

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UPDATE -

 

K was seen again at child development and it was a total success.

 

the first person we saw was the speech and language therapist who had previously suggested a mild delay in language due to not being talked to as a young child. but the story this time was totally different.

 

shes now been assessed as having semantic language problems, word finding problems (can't access the right word so uses anything she comes across) and tracking problems in conversation which is why she talks utter nonsense. she talks round and round as a delaying tactic because she can't find the right word and then gets distracted by the nonsense coming out and forgets what it was she was trying to say in the first place. she also uses repeated phrases/words in place of correct speech to compensate for her problems. the old 'spikey profile' was trotted out and she commented that she felt the difficulties were a significant problem rather than just underdeveloped because they were in a very unusual grouping that isn't seen with underdeveloped speech. shes being referred to a speech therapist and will need 'significant support' at school to enable her to express herself, particularly with reference to the teacher taking extra time when asking K a question as it will take her far longer to be able to answer as she can't find the words and being supportive when she uses the wrong word but clearly knows the answer.

 

when we got to seeing the pediatrician we explained our concerns about her behaviours etc and she agreed that there was likely a problem. she's being referred for a social communication assessment with a view to diagnosing (but didn't say what with) but explained that this might not be successful at this point because her case is complicated by her life experiences and previous upbringing.

they're on the case with extra support for school and are going to contact the action plus woman and tell her she needs to review Ks case and factor in learning/communication/social difficulties as well as the emotional/behavioural ones theyre currently looking at. theyre also going to contact nursery and ask them to step up getting K to do things she doesn't want to. the nursery is child-led which has been great because it means less conflict, but K is neglecting certain essential skills because she wont do anything she isn't instantly good at and this needs to be worked on.

 

Im pleased you are getting somewhere, good luck on finding the right diagnosis for your daughter.

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That's really good news - hope they manage to sort out some additional help asap so she does not have to experience 'failure' at school before they help her - sounds like she has had enough to cope with in her little life already - glad she now has you to be her champion.

 

Best Wishes

 

Grace/x

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my son lasted just 1 day,

we had had advice from nursery that he would need 1 on 1 , but the school didnt quite believe it, and said he will be ok, but then at the end of his first day they said he needed ot and had already got someone to be his 1 on 1.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

K is due to start school in september and as far as we know she will have no support. shes on early years action plus at nursery, but we haven't seen the woman from that for about 5 months now and last time we spoke to her she thought k was doing fine and she didn't see any problems... i picked K up from nursery this week and found her rolling on the floor screaming with all her clothes off! cos thats normal behaviour :wallbash:

 

how long did it take your new school starters to get into a big enough mess that the school admitted support was needed?

 

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1 step forward, 2 steps back! :wallbash:

 

the early years woman showed up to observe K before 2 VERY important meetings... on a day when K doesn't attend nursery and so wasn't there to be observed. so the early years woman has attended both meetings having not seen k in 6 months!!

 

nursery phoned today, K has been off the walls, she attacked 4 children, ripped a chunk of hair out of one girls head and has been screaming abuse at the others all day. shes hit, bit, punched, spat... to credit the nursery they called to tell us, but said they'd keep her the full day as they didn't want to reward the behaviour with an early home time.

 

while this was going on we were in a meeting with the school we want her to go to. they informed us that since they were full they would refuse to take her because she has special needs and since there will be another child in her class with similar needs they dont think it is appropriate to take on K as they wouldn't be able to provide the support. the other child doesn't have a statement, isn't on any special measures at nursery, yet the woman constantly referred to him as 'severely autistic' and very clearly suggested that K did not have the same level of needs. when we said that it we would be persuing a statement for K because of her complex needs she announced that the other child might get one 'some years on' and needed more help than k so her priority was there (shes never met k OR this other child and only knew what we had told her that morning about ks behaviour).

 

i rang the LEA to find out what other schools had places. thanks to Labour deciding the population was shrinking?! there are only 2 primary schools within 12 miles that have spaces, both of which are loud boistrous schools that would be completely inappropriate for K.

 

its just so sad when you know that a child needs certain things and noone wants to listen to what you're saying. when we pulled up outside the school the first thing i said was 'she'll be straight over that wall and into the road' because the playground is only surrounded by a 4ft brick wall. we've got so used to her issues, and we're fighting endlessly to try and sort things out but everyone else seems to be working in the opposite direction!

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Just skimmed over your posts since I last read this thread.

Her language/communication difficulties sound very similar to my son's. Using visual pictures and symbols has helped him alot. He can use them to communicate when he cannot find the word, and having pictures to use to demonstrate learning rather than having to just rely on speech has also lessened the frustration.

When you see the SALT it might be worth mentioning use of symbols to help communication. My son had symbols clipped onto his trousers and these were added to as he was taught them eg. toilet, help, etc. As he got older he learnt a narrative framework so that he knew what information he had to give. Again this involved symbols to represent, who, where, what, when, etc so he could look at the 'who' symbols and tell the adult "that boy", where "in the playground" etc. Otherwise no-one could understand what he was trying to say.

 

Regarding Early Years. Can you phone them and say that you are concerned that she has not seen K in nursery yet and see if she can arrange to go in again. Or, alternatively, see if someone from the nursery can attend any meetings about K to talk about how they are experiencing her difficulties in nursery on a daily basis. If they can say how she typically behaves that is much better and cannot be ignored. Also get notes of every meeting so you have documented paperwork say you know what is agreed and what actions are supposed to be taken. You cannot rely on memory.

 

Regarding school placement. As you have noticed safety issues with the other school I think those are well founded. And that, along with other issues would form part of your argument that she does get a place at the school you think is most suitable. You may have to go to tribunal to get a placement. But if you are in the tribunal process the LEA may just find another place anyway. Sometimes just showing that you are determined to follow through is enough.

 

When I was trying to get my son a place at the only mainstream school that is also enhanced resource for children with ASD I too was told it was full. I had the LEA explain to me how those ASD children need routine and structure etc etc and that introducing my son would upset them. And although I understood what she was trying to say, I had to fight for what my son needed. He too was autistic, and he has more severe difficulties than a number of the children in the class. You have to stay focused on what this child needs. Then it is up to the LEA to find a suitable placement. If the LEA says there are no places, you cannot then say "Okay then, her difficulties do not matter", because obviously they do.

 

Is there a special school in your area that could meet her needs? It maybe that due to her difficulties with speech and communication that that might be a better environment. There would also be more experienced teachers and resources available. I know you say she is bright, and that maybe the case. But her language and communication issues will hold her back, and there is a strong possibility that she will have SPLD too because of the connection between language disorders and SPLD. But being in a special school for the primary years (or some of them), might give her the chance to develop her language and communication skills and she maybe able to move over to mainstream. I'm just thinking of her behaviour at the moment and how a mainstream primary (IMO) is not going to be able to handle that along with the speech and language difficulties. And if there is no real desire from SS to push for a diagnosis, then being in a special school maybe the best place for the time being.

 

At our parent support group there are two sets of parents who have adopted children. Both have since been diagnosed with autism. Both parents say they believe SS must have been aware of difficulties before they were adopted, but that no information was given to them. Both sets of parents love these children, but feel they were mislead by SS as to the child's needs.

 

I think you are doing a brilliant job, and that she is very fortunate to be placed in your family.

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Just had another thought. If you spoke with the nursery and told them you are concerned that Ks difficulties are not being fully understood or recognised and ask them if you could use a home/nursery book. Ask nursery to detail every incident in nursery and to hold nothing back as you need a very clear picture of how days typically go at nursery so that the right school and right supports are in place. It sounds like nursery are doing their best to be as supportive as they can and such a book would be very useful in demonstrating the level of support she needed and the kind of school environment.

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See my reply to a similar thread here.

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Just had another thought. If you spoke with the nursery and told them you are concerned that Ks difficulties are not being fully understood or recognised and ask them if you could use a home/nursery book. Ask nursery to detail every incident in nursery and to hold nothing back as you need a very clear picture of how days typically go at nursery so that the right school and right supports are in place. It sounds like nursery are doing their best to be as supportive as they can and such a book would be very useful in demonstrating the level of support she needed and the kind of school environment.

we already have something like this, just over a longer period of time because of all the reviews/logs required because she's looked after. i might suggest we set up a book for day-to-day issues.

 

we just dont quite know where we stand anymore. the nursery say shes doing advanced work because shes so clever but this seems to be that they leave her on the computer to play games. but since she can't write her name, draw a circle or line, use scissors or create any piece of work that 'is' something we feel that perhaps they should be concentrating more on basic skills. ideally i would like that they set aside a fixed period of time in each session where she HAS to do art/writing/make something with a purpose/subject. because of her non-compliance at the moment she doesn't do anything like that. the nursery is child-led so they dont require her to do anything, and she does even less (she wont wear the uniform and wont eat her lunch, and theyre about the only things the kids have to do). but are we in a position to ask for this?

 

we're losing the battle on her behaviour at the moment because everywhere else she goes she does whatever she likes and noone enforces any rules. then when we tell her at home she has to follow rules she just looks at us like we're nuts and does exactly as she pleases anyway :wallbash:

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A day to day nursery/home book will help.

I understand what you are saying about wanting her to try to develop skills she does not have. My son was the same. And I used to wonder whether he was so good at lego/puzzles because that was all he did. Or whether legos and puzzles was all he did because he could not do the other stuff.

I tried for years to get him to draw, colour, paint, cut, stick etc etc. And he would just get into a complete rage. In the end I had to accept that he did not have those skills and neither he or I were getting any enjoyment inbetween the tears.

When he started school I told them that he did not have any of the skills needed for school. Plus he wasn't really talking much either, and didn't understand what was said to him!

In my case I think it was down to the 'spiky profile' thing. He simply was very delayed with some skills and channelled all his focus and attention into things he liked and was good at.

For example drawing. He simply could not do it. What I found helped was for him to have shapes to draw around. Or for me to start a drawing for him and for him to complete it. But for years this still caused problems because he expected a perfect replica of whatever he was attempting to draw.

Colouring was out of the question because his hand control was not good and when he went over a black line he got so upset - like he was devastated - to the point that he would vomit.

We did lots of dot to dot pictures.

 

Now my son is 9 and just in this last year he has begun to draw. And I have to say that his drawings are better than his peers. It has just suddenly happened. And I know alot of parents say that and you think "but how can I do nothing and just wait for it to come naturally", and the truth is you won't wait.

 

She probably prefers the computer because she is good at it. That is what any of us would do - who likes to spend their time doing stuff they are not good at or that does not interest them? But children on the spectrum do tend to have areas they are good at and areas they are very poor at. Like excessive wiring in one room of a house and none or little in the others.

 

I think you are right to point out her delays and difficulties. And just work with what you can. If she truely cannot do certain things there is no point forcing the issue. Just keep re-visitng it every now and again until eventually she will begin to be able to do some of the things she presently cannot.

 

Another area my son has recently progressed in is being able to listen to a story at bedtime. He has never been able to do this. Now I am reading Narnia to him. If someone had told me when he was 8 that in a years time he would be able to listen to bedtime stories I simply would not have believed them. I had almost given up. But I kept introducing books on subjects that interested him and would just read a word or two.

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At some point she is going to have to comply and it will be a big shock to her.

My son really struggled when he moved from nursery to pre-school at age 3+. It was more structured and was preparing the children for school. Although they say that children on the spectrum like 'structure', my son did not. He did not want to do what was on the schedule for that day. He simply wanted to do what he wanted to do. He was not at all interested in what anyone said to him. He did not want to join in or do any of the planned activities. He did not have any real grasp of language and just refused to comply. He had no friends. He was in his own world.

If they attempted to make him comply he would get angry, upset and then vomit.

I remember watching him once during 'carpet time'. All the other children were sat on the carpet listening to the story and my son was slowly walking and spinning around the periphery of the room totally oblivious to anyone or anything else.

It is a balance of discipline and an ability to access what is on offer. For example I cannot speak Japanese. If you dropped me in the middle of a party in Japan I would not socialise or join in. I might stay on the periphery and watch what others were doing. But I would not understand any of the language or any of the cultural things that might happen during the party. I would definately want to leave and be by myself out of the spotlight. If I could speak Japanese I would have a totally different response to the same situation. I would be able to join in and be able to ask any questions about things I did not understand. In this example I am just talking about an ability to speak another language. Being on the spectrum is so much more complex and complicated than that and involves many other skills and difficulties that someone with an ASD has on top of any language/communication problems.

 

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