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So my social worker, she said it is good for me to write things down, is why I write it because today I was to buy a newspaper so outside the shop there was a stand-up sign and I leaned my bike against it though it pushed the sign back against the window. so the shopkeeper he cam out and was muttering about it and he was arrogant I think and it made me angry and he gone back inside I kicked the sign over very hard, I think actually I broke it and rode off.

Edited by fieldmouse

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Given you kicked his sign over and possibly broke it, I guess he was right to be concerned about what you were doing with it.

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Why did you have to balance your bike on the sign? Was there no alternative.Prehaps if you didnt do that in the first place the shop owner wouldnt have come out. I dont see why you say he was being arrogent its his sign and your bike was leaning on it????

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Great, thanks, another example for the general public to add to their belief that AS is about poor behaviour and potentially violent reactions (even if against an inanimate object).

 

Why would you assume it okay to lean your bicycle against the shop-keeper's sign? Would you be happy if someone lent their bicycle against some of your property?

 

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Later on at the beach it was covered in bottles and cans. There was some party the night before. I did not like this because people should take their rubbish with them. I do not leave litter. There also was broken glass. It was 7.30am. So I cleared the beach myself before the picking team arrived. I had three bagfuls of rubbish. And they thanked me too for doing it.

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Why did you have to balance your bike on the sign? Was there no alternative.Prehaps if you didnt do that in the first place the shop owner wouldnt have come out. I dont see why you say he was being arrogent its his sign and your bike was leaning on it????

 

My brain does not work like that maybe in the way yours would do. I wish I had thought not to do that. And he was arrogant, I was there and you were not.

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My brain does not work like that

What, common sense? Please don't use Asperger's as an excuse for criminal damage (yes, that's what it was, you damaged property - the shop sign - that belonged to someone else) as it's all too easy for others to assume we all act in the same way. :(

 

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I think it might be a good idea to apologise to the shopkeeper and don't do it again.

 

Well done for helping to clear the beach of rubbish, that was a great thing to do. People who leave rubbish are very stupid and ignorant.

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My brain does not work like that maybe in the way yours would do. I wish I had thought not to do that. And he was arrogant, I was there and you were not.

That maybe so but Mumble has made very much the same comment and she does have Aspergers.My son is six with aspergers and he would most definatley not act in that way.And he has a bike and goes to the shop with it,I dont need to tell him where to put it he uses intiative.

 

Like I said even if the shp owner was arrogant,its his property so why shouldnt he be!

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Like everyone we can all make mistakes and do or say something we later regret.

I am sure that if you sit down and think through the process of what happened, that you can see that if you did it differently next time it would be a better outcome.

How you reacted was wrong. But it is something you can change. Learn from what happened and make a mental note to place your bike against a wall or somewhere else where there is not a potential to damage anything by accident.

Whether or not the shopkeeper was arrogent does not justify your response. If someone is arrogent let them be. It is their problem. You should try to make your own behaviour something you would be proud of.

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Hello fieldmouse, I have to say my son may have left his bike up against a sign without realising it might offend the shop owner-he would have just left his bike in the obvious place for him and if there wasn't any bike stands he would have stood it up against anything-it doesn't make you a bad person for doing something like that! When the shop owner came out to complain etc then that was your chance to say sorry I wasn't sure where I could leave my bike!!!!!!

 

However if it were my son and the owner came out complaining he wouldn't have had the emotional, social or language ability to have said any of that and would have probably stood and listened and then rode off very stressed/confused and would have never wanted to go back to the shop again just incase it happened again! So probably my son would have looked rude! What you did also looked rude and made the situation worse-did you kick the sign over because you didn't know how to react or was you just annoyed????? Which doesn't make it ok but now you have thought about it you could go back and say sorry or write a little note and pop it on the counter next time you're there-this is what I would do with my son!

 

Well done for picking up the litter!

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Later on at the beach it was covered in bottles and cans. There was some party the night before. I did not like this because people should take their rubbish with them. I do not leave litter. There also was broken glass. It was 7.30am. So I cleared the beach myself before the picking team arrived. I had three bagfuls of rubbish. And they thanked me too for doing it.

 

Well done and i agree the "how would you like it attitude" doesn't help.

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What, common sense? Please don't use Asperger's as an excuse for criminal damage (yes, that's what it was, you damaged property - the shop sign - that belonged to someone else) as it's all too easy for others to assume we all act in the same way. :(

 

Actually Aspergers often causes problems with common sense and also knowing how other people might react to your behaviour.

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That maybe so but Mumble has made very much the same comment and she does have Aspergers. My son is six with aspergers and he would most definitely not act in that way.And he has a bike and goes to the shop with it, I don't need to tell him where to put it he uses initiative.

 

Like I said even if the shp owner was arrogant,its his property so why shouldn't he be!

 

Why didn't he say to fieldmouse "can you move your bike please?" i didnt develop initiative until i was 20 and many of my offline friends have little or no initiative.

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Why didn't he say to fieldmouse "can you move your bike please?" i didnt develop initiative until i was 20 and many of my offline friends have little or no initiative.

As far as I'm aware, Justine1 was using 'initiative' in the sense of thinking for himself about the most sensible thing to do and /or common sense. Initiative involves being able to make the most basic of decisions, initial moves, thoughts and to carry them through. I don't know you, but I don't think from your other postings that it makes sense to say you didn't develop initiative until you were 20 - without it you would still have been in nappies until you were 20 (you need a degree of initiative to think, oh, I need the toilet, I know, I'll go to the toilet) and have been unable to feed yourself (as two basic examples). However, you've talked about going through mainstream schooling, so I do not think this is the case. If you had no initiative, in its most literal sense, you wouldn't move unless constantly directed by others.

 

If I (hypothetically) parked my car in your front garden (I don't know if you have a front garden and anyway I don't drive, but as I said, hypothetically) mashing up your flowers and knocking over your favourite gnome, would you politely and calmly come up to me and say "excuse me, can you move your car please?" :unsure:

 

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What, common sense? Please don't use Asperger's as an excuse for criminal damage (yes, that's what it was, you damaged property - the shop sign - that belonged to someone else) as it's all too easy for others to assume we all act in the same way. :(

 

You sound very ignorant. You do not understand autism at all. Actually I thought this place would be somewhere to get help and support and advice. I am honest in the things I say. I know I do bad things. There are things that I can not control. I do not like this board so far. It is full of people who are not autistic but probably just join to make fun of those that have problems. I would like to design my own website much better than this as a resource where people would be helpful.

Edited by fieldmouse

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Actually Aspergers often causes problems with common sense and also knowing how other people might react to your behaviour.

 

yes brilliant - at last somebody who understands Asperger's!

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yes brilliant - at last somebody who understands Asperger's!

 

 

Okay,... so if we just take it from your point of view. I presume you can see that how the situation unfolded with the shopkeeper was not good. And you also recognise that kicking over the sign etc was not a good reaction. So, what would you do differently next time?

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I have just read your new post , in Introduction ,s.......I hope you stay on the forum.It is good that you now understand the situation could have been handled differently on your part :thumbs: .

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You sound very ignorant. You do not understand autism at all. Actually I thought this place would be somewhere to get help and support and advice. I am honest in the things I say. I know I do bad things. There are things that I can not control. I do not like this board so far. It is full of people who are not autistic but probably just join to make fun of those that have problems.

I do understand Autism. I am autistic and I work with autistic people. I understand it as much as I can from my perspective, but my understanding will always be tainted with my experiences. This forum is an excellent resource for support and advice, but there is a world of difference between giving support, advice and constructive feedback and just saying "I agree" and colluding with posters to allow, support and condone negative behaviours. Autistic or not, we all need support and advice, but that can only be productive if we are prepared to accept and work with what we hear, even if it doesn't fit with the way we want things to be.

 

And you're right, this forum is 'full of people who are not autistic'. They're called parents (and in some cases, grandparents, brothers and sisters). I do not see evidence of people who join to make fun of others; if you are concerned about any individual posters you should raise this with the moderators rather than making sweeping statements which are clearly incorrect.

 

yes brilliant - at last somebody who understands Asperger's!

What you mean here is 'someone who understands Asperger's as I (you) understand it / want to believe it to be / use it.'

 

I am hugely concerned that AS/ASDs are becoming increasingly seen, and in many respects, experienced by people with a dx, as a list of behaviours reported in the media, and that some individuals on the spectrum are themselves perpetuating this by using the 'I'm autistic I can't help it' line or variations on a theme. Enacting a diagnosis in this way is doubly negative: it stops you pushing your boundaries and achieving anything and it solidifies public perceptions about how we behave (in a negative sense) and what we cannot do, rather than supporting understanding and empathy.

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I have just read your new post , in Introduction ,s.......I hope you stay on the forum.It is good that you now understand the situation could have been handled differently on your part :thumbs: .

I agree with Suze.Nobody said they want you to leave,but we cannot all "pat you on the back" for doing what you did,yes,you may have had no control but we are merely asking,as Sally said,what could you do differently next time.

 

Even if the sign cost 20p it is still his sign and what would you have done if he called the police?

Again we all make mistakes,but for me personally if I make a mistake I wouldnt go and start ranting about how the person, who's property I destroyed,was arogant.

 

The purpose of the forum is to rant and have a moan and its great you have come on here to do so,but as I say not everyone will agree with you,to me that is a good thing as you can learn from what others have said.You need not take offense to it,if you think those who dont agree with you are wrong fair enough take the comments you want to read and ignore the rest.

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this is one of those posts that get complety blown out of the water, so to speak. A mistake was made and im sure fieldmouse has learnt from this experience. Fieldmouse sounds like a careing person who likes to look out for her neighbourhood and keep it clean. It is very hard for people with Autism to know what is the right thing to do in every situation, from my experience every situation is new and is managed differently. Fieldmouse good luck with your future bike ridding and i hope you find a easier and more suitabe place for your bike in the future. If in any doubt just pop inside the shop and ask where it would be ok to lock up your bike.

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yes brilliant - at last somebody who understands Asperger's!

 

Fieldmouse - with the best will in the world, the fact that somebody is offering a defense for your behaviour and putting it under the umbrella of autism does not mean that it's somebody 'at last' who understands autism. It just means you've found someone who agrees with your point of view. Several other autistic people have offered their opinion that your behaviour was inconsiderate, rude and unreasonable, and that it would be unreasonable whether you were autistic or NT. Their opinions are equally valid (at least - IMO they are actually far more realistic and objective), even if they don't pander to the 'idea' of autism you want to promote/embrace.

 

Julie1 - I would disagree that this is a post that got 'completely blown out of the water'. The OP described a very unreasonable piece of behaviour, and seemed to be seeking some sort of affirmation that that behaviour was excusable, or okay, or that the victim somehow 'deserved' it. The first three people to respond - two of whom have ASD's, BTW - took the quite reasonable view that it was not acceptable behaviour, regardless of whether enacted by an autistic person or not. That's actually quite sensible, and not 'explosive' or inflammatory at all. Of course it is hard for an autistic person to know the 'right thing to do in every situation' (hard for an NT person too, but certainly less 'complex), but I don't think it's hard for fieldmouse to know that it's unreasonable to damage somebody elses property, and I don't think fieldmouse was under any illusion that it was acceptable - otherwise why the post and why ride off? And even if fieldmouse was labouring under the misapprehension that autism somehow provided an excuse for the behaviour the right thing to do, surely, would be to highlight that misapprehension for fieldmouse, not offer an endorsement of it?

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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I do understand Autism. I am autistic and I work with autistic people. I understand it as much as I can from my perspective, but my understanding will always be tainted with my experiences. This forum is an excellent resource for support and advice, but there is a world of difference between giving support, advice and constructive feedback and just saying "I agree" and colluding with posters to allow, support and condone negative behaviours. Autistic or not, we all need support and advice, but that can only be productive if we are prepared to accept and work with what we hear, even if it doesn't fit with the way we want things to be.

 

 

Actually no one can fully understand autism and mumble definitely doesn't understand my autism! Neither do a number of members from here.

And you're right, this forum is 'full of people who are not autistic'. They're called parents (and in some cases, grandparents, brothers and sisters). I do not see evidence of people who join to make fun of others; if you are concerned about any individual posters you should raise this with the moderators rather than making sweeping statements which are clearly incorrect.

 

There is some banter on here which can be understood as "making fun of others"

What you mean here is 'someone who understands Asperger's as I (you) understand it / want to believe it to be/use it.'

 

I am hugely concerned that AS/ASDs are becoming increasingly seen, and in many respects, experienced by people with a dx, as a list of behaviours reported in the media, and that some individuals on the spectrum are themselves perpetuating this by using the 'I'm autistic I can't help it' line or variations on a theme. Enacting a diagnosis in this way is doubly negative: it stops you pushing your boundaries and achieving anything and it solidifies public perceptions about how we behave (in a negative sense) and what we cannot do, rather than supporting understanding and empathy.

 

How do you know whether we can help it or not? That's not an excuse it's an acceptance that at present we aren't able to help certain behaviours. Actually it doesn't stop me doing anything i wish to do. i just prefer to hand out with people who accept me rather than wrongly challenge me.

 

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I agree with Suze.Nobody said they want you to leave,but we cannot all "pat you on the back" for doing what you did,yes,you may have had no control but we are merely asking,as Sally said,what could you do differently next time.

 

Even if the sign cost 20p it is still his sign and what would you have done if he called the police?

Again we all make mistakes,but for me personally if I make a mistake I wouldnt go and start ranting about how the person, who's property I destroyed,was arrogant.

 

The purpose of the forum is to rant and have a moan and its great you have come on here to do so,but as I say not everyone will agree with you,to me that is a good thing as you can learn from what others have said.You need not take offence to it,if you think those who dont agree with you are wrong fair enough take the comments you want to read and ignore the rest.

 

If you have an autism alert card that can help in explaining your behaviour to the police.

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this is one of those posts that get completely blown out of the water, so to speak. A mistake was made and im sure fieldmouse has learnt from this experience. Fieldmouse sounds like a caring person who likes to look out for her neighbourhood and keep it clean. It is very hard for people with Autism to know what is the right thing to do in every situation, from my experience every situation is new and is managed differently. Fieldmouse good luck with your future bike ridding and i hope you find a easier and more suitable place for your bike in the future. If in any doubt just pop inside the shop and ask where it would be ok to lock up your bike.

 

Excellent advice!

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Fieldmouse - with the best will in the world, the fact that somebody is offering a defense for your behaviour and putting it under the umbrella of autism does not mean that it's somebody 'at last' who understands autism. It just means you've found someone who agrees with your point of view. Several other autistic people have offered their opinion that your behaviour was inconsiderate, rude and unreasonable, and that it would be unreasonable whether you were autistic or NT. Their opinions are equally valid (at least - IMO they are actually far more realistic and objective), even if they don't pander to the 'idea' of autism you want to promote/embrace.

 

Julie1 - I would disagree that this is a post that got 'completely blown out of the water'. The OP described a very unreasonable piece of behaviour, and seemed to be seeking some sort of affirmation that that behaviour was excusable, or okay, or that the victim somehow 'deserved' it. The first three people to respond - two of whom have ASD's, BTW - took the quite reasonable view that it was not acceptable behaviour, regardless of whether enacted by an autistic person or not. That's actually quite sensible, and not 'explosive' or inflammatory at all. Of course it is hard for an autistic person to know the 'right thing to do in every situation' (hard for an NT person too, but certainly less 'complex), but I don't think it's hard for fieldmouse to know that it's unreasonable to damage somebody elses property, and I don't think fieldmouse was under any illusion that it was acceptable - otherwise why the post and why ride off? And even if fieldmouse was labouring under the misapprehension that autism somehow provided an excuse for the behaviour the right thing to do, surely, would be to highlight that misapprehension for fieldmouse, not offer an endorsement of it?

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

i thought the OP was asking for an explanation of the shopkeepers actions? When autistics are upset "reasonable behaviour" doesnt always come easy to them. Fieldmouse was explaining the situation and asking for support, i didnt detect any indication that they wanted acceptance of their behaviour. Actually it's not an excuse it is a valid reason for a confused and upset autistic.

 

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i thought the OP was asking for an explanation of the shopkeepers actions? When autistics are upset "reasonable behaviour" doesnt always come easy to them. Fieldmouse was explaining the situation and asking for support, i didnt detect any indication that they wanted acceptance of their behaviour. Actually it's not an excuse it is a valid reason for a confused and upset autistic.

 

Where do you see that, trekster?

The OP was quite clear that they thought the shopkeeper was arrogant and kicked the sign over in anger/response. I think, as is often the case, you are seeing in the post what you want to see - a poor confused autistic victim. That's not what I or many others see. That a shopkeeper is not happy at having a bike rested against a sign (or a window/whatever) is not a valid reason for aggression/damage to property. I think once you get above a certain level of functioning it's not even a valid reason for confusion or for being upset. I have no idea what fieldmouse's level of functioning is, but from posts made to date would deduce that he is capable of distinguishing right from wrong, and whether upset or not there is a clear and obvious 'right and wrong' boundary regarding breaking other people's property. Obviously, some people will choose - despite being fully aware of that boundary - to ignore it, and autism is completely irrelevent in that case. For some, though, the existence of autism is a good enough excuse/justification, just as for others 'My parents got a divorce', 'he/she fell in with the wrong crowd', 'he/she/I have "anger management issues"' or 'hur, hur, hur so what the **** are you gonna do about it?' are for others. None of those wash for me, or some of the other posters in this thread.

 

I'm gonna bow out of this one now... I'd really said everything I wanted to say in my first post, which seems quite clear and I'll only be repeating myself. To recap:

The situation seems quite clear that fieldmouse was 'in the wrong' and it seems equally clear that fieldmouse knew he was in the wrong, and neither of those things have anything to do with autism. It is not 'blowing it out of the water' for other people to make that observation, nor a sign of 'ignorance'. That one person agrees with something you say does not mean that person 'knows what they are talking about', or that the many people who don't agree with the two of you don't know what they are talking about.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Where do you see that, trekster?

The OP was quite clear that they thought the shopkeeper was arrogant and kicked the sign over in anger/response. I think, as is often the case, you are seeing in the post what you want to see - a poor confused autistic victim. That's not what I or many others see.

 

i am seeing what i have pictured in my mind from the original posters account of the event thats all. i didnt see a vicitim i saw a confused autistic who didnt know how to react and so knocked over the sign.

That a shopkeeper is not happy at having a bike rested against a sign (or a window/whatever) is not a valid reason for aggression/damage to property. I think once you get above a certain level of functioning it's not even a valid reason for confusion or for being upset.

 

We arent sure of fieldmouses level of functioning at the time though. It is a valid reason for his behaviour

I have no idea what fieldmouse's level of functioning is, but from posts made to date would deduce that he is capable of distinguishing right from wrong,

 

When hes not upset maybe but when upset "people with asperger syndrome are unable to think of the consequences of their actions" (asperger syndrome practical solutions for tantrum rage and meltdown.

.. whether upset or not there is a clear and obvious 'right and wrong' boundary regarding breaking other people's property.

 

To an NT maybe but not to an autistic. The fact you've used the term "obvious" clearly indicates you dont understand autistics when they are upset.

Obviously, some people will choose - despite being fully aware of that boundary - to ignore it, and autism is completely irrelevant in that case. For some, though, the existence of autism is a good enough excuse/justification, just as for others 'My parents got a divorce', 'he/she fell in with the wrong crowd', 'he/she/I have "anger management issues"' or 'hur, hur, hur so what the **** are you gonna do about it?' are for others. None of those wash for me, or some of the other posters in this thread.

 

That describes NTs, afaik autistics do not ignore boundaries.

I'm gonna bow out of this one now... I'd really said everything I wanted to say in my first post, which seems quite clear and I'll only be repeating myself. To recap:

The situation seems quite clear that fieldmouse was 'in the wrong' and it seems equally clear that fieldmouse knew he was in the wrong, and neither of those things have anything to do with autism. It is not 'blowing it out of the water' for other people to make that observation, nor a sign of 'ignorance'. That one person agrees with something you say does not mean that person 'knows what they are talking about', or that the many people who don't agree with the two of you don't know what they are talking about.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

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I'm afraid Trekster that you have contradicted yourself. In one breath you are saying that autistics do not ignore boundaries, yet in another you state that autistics do not understand boundaries (when upset). You can't not ignore something you don't comprehend.

 

Also, many people here have told you previously that something published (particularly in a non peer-reviewed book for the general public) is not necessarily gospel (truth). It is my belief that we do ourselves a huge disservice if we try to be everything the books say we should be.

 

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This morning, Fieldmouse posted in his introduction thread that he realises now that he reacted badly during the incident outside the shop. He said that he feels sorry for what he did. I think Fieldmouse does understand now that, although the shopkeeper might have been rude, that he needs to find better solutions in the future if similar things happen.

 

Perhaps we could suggest ways for Fieldmouse to cope better with this type of situation without risking getting himself into trouble or upsetting anyone :)

Edited by Tally

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Deleted for personal comments.

Edited by call me jaded

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Deleted for personal comments.

 

 

 

Edited by call me jaded

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"you didn't develop initiative until you were 20 - without it you would still have been in nappies until you were 20 (you need a degree of initiative to think, oh, I need the toilet, I know, I'll go to the toilet)"

 

What's this? So are you laughing now if an adult has to wear nappies. I was born incontinent and so I have to. Another reason why going out public places is hard, getting changed at the pool or at the beach [where I love to go but always find a place to be on my own]. I can't help that, but I manage my condition quite well.

 

If I read your meaning wrong I can say sorry, but it sounded like a poor analogy.

 

 

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As far as I'm aware, Justine1 was using 'initiative' in the sense of thinking for himself about the most sensible thing to do and /or common sense. Initiative involves being able to make the most basic of decisions, initial moves, thoughts and to carry them through. I don't know you, but I don't think from your other postings that it makes sense to say you didn't develop initiative until you were 20 - without it you would still have been in nappies until you were 20 (you need a degree of initiative to think, oh, I need the toilet, I know, I'll go to the toilet) and have been unable to feed yourself (as two basic examples). However, you've talked about going through mainstream schooling, so I do not think this is the case. If you had no initiative, in its most literal sense, you wouldn't move unless constantly directed by others.

 

If I (hypothetically) parked my car in your front garden (I don't know if you have a front garden and anyway I don't drive, but as I said, hypothetically) mashing up your flowers and knocking over your favourite gnome, would you politely and calmly come up to me and say "excuse me, can you move your car please?" :unsure:

 

No but i was caught short before age 25, so i almost had problems when out. It take me 5 hours to realise i need the loo sometimes but thats due to body awareness that feeling full + stomach ache = need the loo. i have missed meals in the past due to not being aware i was hungry.

 

i tend to take 3 hours to go from feeling tired to actually going to bed. There is a difference between this type of criminal damage and the original posters. i realise it was hypothetical but the OP didnt break anything.

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I'm afraid Trekster that you have contradicted yourself. In one breath you are saying that autistics do not ignore boundaries, yet in another you state that autistics do not understand boundaries (when upset). You can't not ignore something you don't comprehend.

 

Also, many people here have told you previously that something published (particularly in a non peer-reviewed book for the general public) is not necessarily gospel (truth). It is my belief that we do ourselves a huge disservice if we try to be everything the books say we should be.

 

i meant the ones they were aware of in the 1st place. i dont try and be all the books say i am, either the behaviour/characteristic applies to me or it doesnt.

 

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