Uniform at comp

[heleno]

I would like to ask other peoples thoughts on how far a school should enforce a uniform policy if the punishments don't seem to be working (in my opinion!)

My son is 13 and the school he attends has a very strict uniform policy. Before he went I explained this to him and he still wanted to go there and for the most part he has managed to cope with having his tie knotted exactly right and having it the correct length (I did say it was strict!) but the bit he can't won't do is tuck in the front of his shirt. In winter it’s hidden as he wears a jumper but in summer he has it out on the way to school and tucks it in - sort of - as he goes in. However it obviously doesn't stay in.

The school gives out yellow cards every time a member of staff see's a child with any infringement and 2 yellow cards mean a detention. So far he has had 13 yellows and has done 5 detentions with 2 more pending and to be honest it’s getting me down.

Sometimes they don't even tell them they have done wrong they just write it down and I find that really negative - surely a quiet word is better than punish punish punish. Twice he has been reported on the same day and the head - who obviously has no idea who he is - noted that he was a very rude boy when he gave him a card and my son answered him back!

Pitch this against what I am trying to cope with and that is a child who despises school, who refuses almost on a daily basis to go and who I have to coax, threaten, bribe and cry at just to get him through the doors. He is so depressed he threatens suicide weekly and see's no point in being alive.

Should I argue for him with the senior managers of the school or should I just accept what they say, I feel they are missing the bigger picture here and working in a detrimental way when I am trying to get my son through school and they aren't helping.

Surely it’s better to have him in school with his shirt occasionally out - and by all means remind him - than not in school at all.

How do other children cope with rigidity of thinking from such an establishment!

[baddad]

I would like to ask other peoples thoughts on how far a school should enforce a uniform policy if the punishments don't seem to be working (in my opinion!)

My son is 13 and the school he attends has a very strict uniform policy. Before he went I explained this to him and he still wanted to go there and for the most part he has managed to cope with having his tie knotted exactly right and having it the correct length (I did say it was strict!) but the bit he can't won't do is tuck in the front of his shirt. In winter it’s hidden as he wears a jumper but in summer he has it out on the way to school and tucks it in - sort of - as he goes in. However it obviously doesn't stay in.

The school gives out yellow cards every time a member of staff see's a child with any infringement and 2 yellow cards mean a detention. So far he has had 13 yellows and has done 5 detentions with 2 more pending and to be honest it’s getting me down.

Sometimes they don't even tell them they have done wrong they just write it down and I find that really negative - surely a quiet word is better than punish punish punish. Twice he has been reported on the same day and the head - who obviously has no idea who he is - noted that he was a very rude boy when he gave him a card and my son answered him back!

Pitch this against what I am trying to cope with and that is a child who despises school, who refuses almost on a daily basis to go and who I have to coax, threaten, bribe and cry at just to get him through the doors. He is so depressed he threatens suicide weekly and see's no point in being alive.

Should I argue for him with the senior managers of the school or should I just accept what they say, I feel they are missing the bigger picture here and working in a detrimental way when I am trying to get my son through school and they aren't helping.

Surely it’s better to have him in school with his shirt occasionally out - and by all means remind him - than not in school at all.

How do other children cope with rigidity of thinking from such an establishment!

 

 

Hi Helen O - I think you've answered your own question here:

My son is 13 and the school he attends has a very strict uniform policy. Before he went I explained this to him and he still wanted to go there

 

Not knowing your son it is of course impossible to know what would be 'reasonable adjustments' for him, but if he knew this before he started, you felt 'mainstream' was appropriate and there are no other directly related issues then it doesn't seem unreasonable for the school to have the same expectation of him in this regard as they have of the other children. All of the other issues - his reluctance to attend, his threats of self harm, his rudeness etc are unrelated (or, at the very least, indirectly related).

I'd agree completely that it is reasonable to expect teachers to explain why they are giving him a 'yellow card' whatever, if he doesn't know why, but if he does know why then going through a little ritual everytime purely for his amusement would actually be very undermining for the teachers. Similarly, it seems unreasonable to give him two sanctions for the same 'offence' in one day if the 'offence' was one that could not be rectified. But if it's two separate 'offences' for something that could be rectified, then two sanctions seems reasonable. Trying to think of an example: if he forgot to wear his tie into school then he would not be able to rectify it that day, so only one sanction. If he took his tie off in school, and was sanctioned and put it back on again only to take it off again later, then two sanctions for two infringements of the rules seems reasonable.

 

I can fully understand why, given all of the other complications around school, you would consider this silly and pointless niggardlyness, and I think the whole idea of school uniform is a hot-potato anyway. But, having acknowledged that, I think there's a principle here too, and if he had an active role in choosing that school knowing about the rules and if he is 'able' to wear school uniform without any directly related problems then there's no 'reasonable' grounds for adjustment or lowering expectations.

 

Very, very best with all of the other stuff. It all sounds far more serious/complicated than the uniform issue, so I really hope some solutions can be found.

 

L&P

 

BD ;D

[heleno]

I do take your point about him knowing before choosing but in truth his decision was based on where the other children from his primary where going not an acceptance of their rules and regulations. For him it was either that school or no school - his preference now!

My point is that I take a very active role in working with the school to maintain him in education, the staff i liase with are progressing hugely with becoming a more inclusive school, something they had a dire reputaion for previously.

However they are not the ones administering and enforcing this policy, i believe if they were they would allow some leeway in how ridgidly they use it with him. I want them to work with me and in being so strict they are working agaist me.

nearly all the infringments are for having his shirt untucked. sometimes they don't even speak to the child they just write them up as a yellow card, they are not given the choice of tucking it in as an alternative to punishment.

I would love to know how many other boys - and it is always boys as they girls uniform has a blouse that is allowed to be untucked - have had as many yellows as my son. My son is also partially sighted and unlike the other chn who when they see a teacher have the sense to tuck theirs in, he neither see's the teacher coming nor seems to have the ability to anticipate sorting it out before he gets a card.

 

[Mumble]

Why doesn't he want the front of his shirt tucked in? If you can start from the reason, it's likely to be easier to find a solution. I'm assuming it's not sensory if the back is tucked in?

 

[baddad]

I do take your point about him knowing before choosing but in truth his decision was based on where the other children from his primary where going not an acceptance of their rules and regulations. For him it was either that school or no school - his preference now!

My point is that I take a very active role in working with the school to maintain him in education, the staff i liase with are progressing hugely with becoming a more inclusive school, something they had a dire reputaion for previously.

However they are not the ones administering and enforcing this policy, i believe if they were they would allow some leeway in how ridgidly they use it with him. I want them to work with me and in being so strict they are working agaist me.

nearly all the infringments are for having his shirt untucked. sometimes they don't even speak to the child they just write them up as a yellow card, they are not given the choice of tucking it in as an alternative to punishment.

I would love to know how many other boys - and it is always boys as they girls uniform has a blouse that is allowed to be untucked - have had as many yellows as my son. My son is also partially sighted and unlike the other chn who when they see a teacher have the sense to tuck theirs in, he neither see's the teacher coming nor seems to have the ability to anticipate sorting it out before he gets a card.

 

 

Hi again Helen O -

 

Yes, I do appreciate all of the above, but really it doesn't change anything. However petty it sounds to you and your son the school do have a strict uniform policy. It's not as simple is 'if they're not with me they're against me' (It didn't work for George Bush or anyone else who's taken that line down the centuries!), and that argument could be equally applied in the opposite direction - i.e., 'well if mum won't even support us over something as trivial as school uniform what hope do we have with the bigger stuff?'...

I don't know how many boys there are at the school, but given the size of comps these days that could well be up to a 1000 kids who have to tuck their shirts in, and who will feel they are being done an injustice if your son is the only child in school who doesn't have to comply. If there is some other explanation/justification for 'reasonable adjustment' then a reasonable adjustment should be made, but if the explanation purely hinges on 'he is autistic and doesn't like tucking it in' then that is not 'reasonable adjustment', regardless of any wider issues like him not wanting to go to school in the first place (which probably applies to a highish percentage of the other kids too).

If it's any consolation my son's specialist school also has a rigid uniform policy, which is equally rigidly enforced, so it's not just a case of the mainstream comp not understanding. The arguments 'for and against' school uniform are complicated - supporters of it claim all sorts of benefits, including group identity/morale, security, equality (no arguments over who has the 'wrong' trainers or football shirt etc), but at the end of the day a school rule is a school rule, and exemption from that rule needs to be justified or the 'rule' is undermined and the value - perceived or otherwise - lost. Part of the 'value' of a rule is exactly that - the addage that 'rules were made to be broken' intrisically linked to the idea of consequences for those breaking the rules.

 

Hope that makes sense, but either way i'll bow out now if I may as I can't think of anything I can add.

 

L&P

 

BD

[justine1]

Hi

It is hard cause it wouldnt seem fair to the other kids if he is allowed some leeway,but I do get where you coming from.I was just having this conversation with someone the other day,but mostly cause of sensory issues and uniforms.My four yr old has huge sensory issues but luckily he is coping so far.My six yr old cant wear buttons no formal shirt so if he were to go where my eldest will be going not sure if he would wear a shirt and tie

 

As Mumble said if he is coping with it tucked in the back or even tucked in the front for part of the day,then its more of a case that he could be forgetting to tuck it in,I had this problem at school as did 90% of the school esp boys.Like you say if he forgets and then saw a teacher he may quickly tuck it in but if he cannot see them then thats a problem.

Maybe you can talk to him about it,prehaps get some shirts for going out as well so he can practise.From when my boys started school I always insist they tuck their polo shirts in as I just think it looks neater,hopefully this will prepare them for upper school.

 

You may want to talk to the school as well,not complain,just say that you are very surprised as he keeps getting detention over this one issue and would like some advice and support to overcome the problem.

[Karen A]

Hi heleno.

I do understand your frustration.We have Ben who is 12 and at a mainstream comprehensive.He tells me most days that he hates school.He is very unhappy there.We also have a son age 14 at the same school.

 

We have worked very hard with school in attempts to increase awareness of Ben's needs with some sucess.However it is still a matter of small steps forward and others back.

I do think it is worth bearing in mind that even if your son was not aware of the difficulties that might arise when he decided on this school I pressume that you researched it.As a parent you therefore agreed to the school policy on his behalf.I know it is difficult but as a parent you have agreed to the rules and regulations.If you now find that your son finds the choice difficult I don't think you can blame the school....unless the policy has changed.

 

I do take your point about him knowing before choosing but in truth his decision was based on where the other children from his primary where going not an acceptance of their rules and regulations. For him it was either that school or no school - his preference

 

I know that my son's school also has a clear policy on uniform and it is a pain.However I know from my elder son that further up the school absolutely any room that is given re Eg length of tie,shoe style is taken as far as it can be....teenagers being teenagers.Teenagers will do their tie properly only to undo it when the teacher has turned the corner a minute later.It very difficult to make exceptions.With Ben at times it has not been helpful when he has been marked out as being allowed different treatment as it has just increased bullying.

 

We have also found that the number of teachers makes communication difficult.Teachers will not communicate with each other over minor rule infringements.So if several teachers see a pupil breaking the uniform policy this could well result in multiple penalties.One could argue that at least if they all give a penalty at least they are consistent.

 

We have also realised with Ben that even though he has AS and dyspraxia he is still a 12 year old who may not like some things.

Only last week I sent a firm letter to a head of department.She had marked Ben's work and felt he was not working in line with his ability.Ben said it was because he could not copy things down quickly enough.So I believed his version.

The head of department wrote a very helpful Email back stating that she was very aware of Ben's difficulties but still felt he was not doing homework as well as he was able.

We decided on reflection that she had a good point and will be monitoring Ben more closely.

Had we just agreed with Ben as we would have done previously he would not do as well as he could do.

 

I know this is not easy.I have gone over the other options for school on a frequent basis.I cannot home ed Ben because I would have a breakdown.He is too bright for the local Specialist ASD school.I would hate him to go residential and none of the other mainstream schools are better than the current one.So we push on.However I am learning very very slowly which issues to fight over.

 

Karen.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Karen A

[Mumble]

We have also realised with Ben that even though he has AS and dyspraxia he is still a 12 year old who may not like some things.

:notworthy: Lovely to see you back Karen and to see some sense around here. Sorry to hear things are difficult and I do hope they get better for Ben. <'>

 

[Karen A]

:notworthy: Lovely to see you back Karen and to see some sense around here. Sorry to hear things are difficult and I do hope they get better for Ben. <'>

 

<'> <'> <'> <'>

Thanks.

Things are getting better for Ben slowly.The biggest issue has been me.

I somehow managed to spend years here feeling very helpful.Then one day I woke up and realised that I am not sure I want to have a child with ASD.

My plan was to work very hard so that everything would be sorted and I would get on with life.

So for a while I was not sure I wanted to be here.

Nothing to do with any of you crew.

Sorry heleno very off topic I will stop my waffle now.

 

I did think of another thing.My son's school also complained that teachers were sick of spending time having to sort out uniform isues.If they spend the day saying the same thing over and over I can understand why they don't want to take long and just give a card.Teachers also find with Ben that detailed explanations just lead to heated debate.

Some would argue that using a card system may be helpful for people with ASD.

Karen.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Karen A

[Mumble]

I will stop my waffle now.

Why break the habit of a lifetime?

 

Hope things are/do sort themselves out for you - I've missed having you round here and coming up with cunning plans to send you through incorrect hidden doorways...

 

Sorry,

[heleno]

Thank you all for sharing your ideas, Karen - we seems to be in a very similar place with our children!

I have now spoken to school and we have decided that the remaining dets will be on file till the end of term but if he doesn't get another card he will not have to complete them. i think this is an excellent idea as it gives him ownership of what will happen to him but shows willing on schools part to consider him and in turn i expect him to recognize that they are considering him as a person.

I am now going home to sew all his shirts into the front of his trousers!

x

[justine1]

Thank you all for sharing your ideas, Karen - we seems to be in a very similar place with our children!

I have now spoken to school and we have decided that the remaining dets will be on file till the end of term but if he doesn't get another card he will not have to complete them. i think this is an excellent idea as it gives him ownership of what will happen to him but shows willing on schools part to consider him and in turn i expect him to recognize that they are considering him as a person.

I am now going home to sew all his shirts into the front of his trousers!

x

[Karen A]

Thank you all for sharing your ideas, Karen - we seems to be in a very similar place with our children!

I have now spoken to school and we have decided that the remaining dets will be on file till the end of term but if he doesn't get another card he will not have to complete them. i think this is an excellent idea as it gives him ownership of what will happen to him but shows willing on schools part to consider him and in turn i expect him to recognize that they are considering him as a person.

I am now going home to sew all his shirts into the front of his trousers!

x

 

That sounds like an excellent compromise.

Karen.

 

[Mumble]

I am now going home to sew all his shirts into the front of his trousers!

I was going to suggest safety pinning them to his pants, but I wasn't sure how well that would go down! :lol:

 

[chris54]

I'm not against school uniform but I think they should reflect normal dress, just like they did in our parent/grandparent day.

 

One would ask the question why is it alright for girls to have their blouses untucked but not for boys to have their shirts untucked.

 

I'm looking forward to secondary school, the local school has just gone all "up market" with its uniform If I am honest seeing all the kids wearing their new uniform which may look posh in the pictures, actually make them all look very uncomfortable in there ill fitting "tailored" trousers and jackets.

 

If my son end up going there which seems likely, I will be busy adapting his uniform so it looks "right" but is something he can live with.

Edited July 2, 2010 by chris54

[got the tshirt]

I agree with uniform in principle but wish they would ditch shirts and ties in favour of polo shirts and sweatshirts. Dd2 [Nt 14]has recently had a new Headteacher who insists on top buttons being fastened, Ridiculus, IMO, she really hates it, I know how she feels I was at secondary school 30 years ago and cut all the top buttons off my shirts so that I could not do them up when the teachers told me too, got me in plenty of trouble, but I never did a top button up. LOL. Don't anyone tell Dd2, she'll have the scissors out.

 

Oh meant to say Chris at Dd2's school the girls wear ties and have to tuck shirts in the same as the lads.

Edited July 3, 2010 by got the tshirt