Anyone elses AS child do horrid things to sibs?

[peaches]

Im sure its not just R who does these things to his younger sisters. They arent normally left unsupervised but any odd few seconds that Im attending to one of the little ones needs and DH is distracted R injures one of them. Its sometimes accidental, but the last 2 incidents, a rather unpleasant deliberate kicking, and tangling her hair in a whisk, leave me thinking what is he going to do next.

 

I'd be interested to hear from anyone else with an ASD child and siblings, who has this sort of problems, and if they have found a solution. I hope this actually makes sense, if not Im sorry, Im really tired!

[mygifts1306]

DS who is now 7, can be mean to his brother nearly , here are some examples

tickling him until he cries, like yourself my kids are supervised at all times, on the odd occasion when i leave the room,

sitting on top of him while playing with him

If younger ds is playing with his toy he asks for it, i maintain that the toys are for both of them but if ds2 was first in getting a toy he must be let to play with it for 10 minutes at least

Teasing his brother until he is crying

 

solution- we have not found a solution, but we just remind him that he will not like that done to him so he must not do it, i just try to get him to cooperate by explaining myself to him,

 

keep at it

 

jax

[Frizz]

Hi Peaches.

 

My DS is mean to her younger sibling-when he wont play by her rules,if he does something she doesnt like,if we reprimand or punish her for something & he is near by......It's probably not what you wanted to hear & it breaks my heart that it happens.

When we look back over the years(she is 10 now),she has always done it.As a toddler she would knock him over when he was learning to sit up/walk.If she wanted a toy he was playing with she would just shove him to get it.

Are we bad parents for letting her get away with it? No certainly not.She never gets away with it,never has,but she doesnt or cant stop doing it & we dont have the answer!!

 

I know it doesnt always occur in families as I have friends with 'aspie' children.I do hope its just a phase or a bit of attention seeking behaviour that 'R' is going through.

Good luck.

[baddad]

Hi Peaches / all -

 

No personal experience*, but I know this kind of thing happens in many, many families. I don't think you have to look for an 'autistic' explanation for it or for an 'autistic' solution. Just accept it for what it is - a small child being spiteful to his smaller siblings - and make it clear that the behaviour will not be tolerated/is unacceptable with firm boundaries and consequences.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

* (well not as a parent anyway - but as the youngest of seven kids I can totally assure you that the older kid being spiteful to younger kids is entirely within the realms of 'normal' behaviour, and from observations of my son with his friends etc that the same will occur in most situations where a 'pecking order' is established or is being established)

Edited September 14, 2010 by baddad

[Autastic]

Im sure its not just R who does these things to his younger sisters. They arent normally left unsupervised but any odd few seconds that Im attending to one of the little ones needs and DH is distracted R injures one of them. Its sometimes accidental, but the last 2 incidents, a rather unpleasant deliberate kicking, and tangling her hair in a whisk, leave me thinking what is he going to do next.

 

I'd be interested to hear from anyone else with an ASD child and siblings, who has this sort of problems, and if they have found a solution. I hope this actually makes sense, if not Im sorry, Im really tired!

 

I'm not surprised you are tired - you have a lot on your plate.

 

I am an adult with ASD and I can remember why I was so mean to my siblings.

 

I was the eldest and very jealous of my younger siblings especially when they needed lots of attention. I was a bully and deliberately hurt them, just to get a reaction (from the child). Even the slightest reaction would make me feel important.

 

I was generally naughty for the same reason. One thing I can tell you though is discipline didn't work at all. Being naughty always got me attention. It wasn't good attention, but it was better than nothing. I didn't get much attention when I was good - hence my sig.

 

Kids crave attention, but kids with ASD are less flexible and tolerant of other kids.

 

I now believe that praise for good behavior far outweighs discipline for bad, and that seems to work on all kids, not just kids with ASD - er, hence my sig.

 

If you get chance to watch Supernanny on the TV she gives great advice on sibling rivalry or visit her site here: http://www.supernanny.com/

 

Good luck!

[call me jaded]

We had to be very vigilant with DD1 who was jealous of DS2 from the moment he was born. Left together in a room DS2 at two days old 'fell' onto the floor. No lasting or even short term damage but I was unable to ever leave them together. The simplest way of dealing with it was to make a big fuss of DD1 - 'can you come with me to the kitchen I've got something to show you?'. A little tedious and I never got to make a phone call for about five years! The one and only time I smacked her she had hit her brother in the face with a metal clasped handbag after repeated warnings from me not to do it. Not my finest parenting hour, but the fact that I followed through after a blatent challenge did actually teach her that the boundaries were where I decided and not where she thought they should be.

 

No easy answers as to where ASD fits in (these are both NT children) other than we took a view that any behaviour that would get DS arrested in adult life would be 'punished'. Where we had to differentiate was to make the punishment appropriate to autism, so for DS1 removing him from the room we were in was sufficient whereas DD1 needed lengthy explanation and reinforcement.

 

One of the best books I read on behaviour management was Ross Greene's 'The Explosive child'.

Edited September 14, 2010 by call me jaded

[peaches]

Autastic, your reply was very useful, but also what I imagined was happening, this fits exactly with his behaviour. He wants attention when the younger ones are getting it. It also needs to be borne in mind that R has ADHD too as a separate diagnosis. So there is an impulsive element to his behaviour. He has admitted that he cant stop himself doing things sometimes. The sanctions I use are generally being withdrawn to his own room - but as he often refuses to go up there my husband has to get him up there, I cant he is too big now and I have a bad back. I usually withdraw his computer and/or other electronic gaming equipment for the rest of the day or two days depending on the severity. This is hard on all of us though as without the computer or his gaming, he is bouncing off the walls, and off his siblings too!

 

Thanks all of you for your advice. I think its just the exhaustion that makes me feel at a loss what to do about this.

[Karen A]

I just wanted to say.

I do not know much about medication.

However we only have our own two lads one of whom has never been any trouble at all.

I live with my husband who has been married to me for over twenty years.

We have had extensive support from CAMHS over the years.

We try very hard to work together to support our children.

However we have made more mistakes than I care to think about.

As far as I understand this is not the situation you would ever have chosen unlike ourselves and you are doing the best you can. <'> <'>

Karen.

 

.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Karen A

[baddad]

 

 

I now believe that praise for good behavior far outweighs discipline for bad, and that seems to work on all kids, not just kids with ASD - er, hence my sig.

 

If you get chance to watch Supernanny on the TV she gives great advice on sibling rivalry or visit her site here: http://www.supernanny.com/

 

Good luck!

 

Hi autastic -

Yes, I totally agree that praise for good behaviour is the biggest gun in a parent's/carer's arsenal, but really believe the advice in your siggy about ignoring bad behaviour is terribly flawed. This tends to be backed up by most professionals, who now usually see 'extinction' as a viable response only in the most controlled environments and extreme circumstances, for the reason that it invariably leads to an escalation in behaviours before any (if there are any) more positive effects become apparant.

 

You mention 'Supernanny' in your post, and as a vocal advocate for her techniques I would point out that she never ignores bad behaviour, and doesn't let it escalate to the point where cats are being strangled! Yes, to an attention seeking child any kind of feedback can be a reinforcer - but the answer is to ensure that the positive reinforcers for positive behaviour are more 'attractive' than the negative reinforcers for negative behaviour.

 

Jo Frost does not ignore the behaviour, even if it is attention seeking, she responds and sanctions it (the famous 'naughty chair/step'). I think the confusion arises from the advice that you shouldn't react to it; i.e. you shouldn't argue with the child, engage in any debate about the sanction or offer any concessions or 'deals'. Most emphatically, you should not ignore it, or be seen to back down on following through with the sanction, as this absolutely acts as a reinforcer.

 

Hope that's useful, to you and the OP.

 

L&P

 

BD

[peteo]

I agree with Baddad that older siblings can be jealous of the younger ones, and bullying is common.

 

. In my case though my (suspected) AS older brother went further than that. I was pretty much a walking punch bag throughout my childhood. Almost every day I was hit, had some hard object thrown at me (usually the TV remote if a dared to speak during a programme my brother was watching). If my parents caught him beating me, they'd just tell us both to stop fighting. He was never punished.

 

To be honest it only really stopped in my late teens when one day I'd gone into his room to turn down some music he'd left blaring. He came in a had me up against the wall, hands pressed hard against my neck. I couldn't breath, and I just decided I'd had enough... spat in his face and planted a perfect left hook to his jaw. Basically I beat him up. It was the first time I ever fought back, and the last time I ever had to. He never laid a finger on me again.

 

He had to feel first-hand the pain he was inflicting, and know that he would feel the same pain again if he inflicted more on me. I disagree that discipline doesn't work. Fear of pain is a persuasive thing.

 

Years later, looking back he admitted he'd been really cruel to me, and was genuinely regretful. We get on ok now, as long as it's on his terms, we talk only about stuff he's interested in, and he's allowed to be "right" at all times.

[JsMum]

My son is an only child but he does require supervision when with other children what ever age, older, younger or the same age, he has assulted many children in temper, gelously, Guilt, frustration, and attention.

 

However he does also have significant social interaction difficulties and impaired social communication so at a disadvantage to NT peers which has a serious determental effect on his ability to develop friends, and most importantly KEEP friends, yet he is a bubbly, funny, charachteristic child, loads of kids like J, but they find it almost impossobl to get on with him for long periods, if he did have siblings I dont think I would be able to keep them safe from Js reactions if in a temper.

 

In foster care in Js infancy a placement broke down because he was constantly assualting the foster carers other children, J saw an easy way to get instant attention and that it actually hurt the foster carers too, so for J it was out of revenge too.

 

If your son has social and communication impairments and finds it difficult to verbalise his feelings then he could be hurting his siblings as another way to upset you to get you to understand his own inner feelings maybe onces he can not describe or even begin to tell you how deeply hurt he is hurting.

 

If he is been bullied at school he maybe redirecting the behaviour onto his siblings.

 

What is clear is that he needs proffessional help to help him not just sanctions and disapline because by the sounds of it it is already present and it isnt making any difference to his reactions towards his siblings and it is getting more serious.

 

JsMumx

[JsMum]

Autastic, your reply was very useful, but also what I imagined was happening, this fits exactly with his behaviour. He wants attention when the younger ones are getting it. It also needs to be borne in mind that R has ADHD too as a separate diagnosis. So there is an impulsive element to his behaviour. He has admitted that he cant stop himself doing things sometimes. The sanctions I use are generally being withdrawn to his own room - but as he often refuses to go up there my husband has to get him up there, I cant he is too big now and I have a bad back. I usually withdraw his computer and/or other electronic gaming equipment for the rest of the day or two days depending on the severity. This is hard on all of us though as without the computer or his gaming, he is bouncing off the walls, and off his siblings too!

 

Thanks all of you for your advice. I think its just the exhaustion that makes me feel at a loss what to do about this.

 

The first time I ever trialed the nauty/bottom step J was three and was advised by the Health visitor, I trialed it once because after the first time i vowed never to do it again, basically he struggled with me when I trid to physically get him to sit on the bottom step, he kept on moving off it, it actually almost became a game, he laughed when he got up again, so I put him back, then he got off it again, like this until I finally closed the hallway door, not realising that while J was fighting back to force the door open, I managed to finally shut it, but I didnt realise I had trapped his finger in the door, all the screaming and crying I thought was because he didnt like me shutting the door, when in fact it was because he was in agony, eventually when it was a little quieter I opened the door to witnes blood and gore, J with a snotty quivering lip and tears wet and stained on his cheeks and holding his fingerless fingertip, which was missing at this piont! I then scooped him up and cuddled him I felt soooo bad.

 

After a visit to local A+E to get it treated they asked how it happened, I explained the situation and they said maybe the naughtystep isnt a techneque to use for disapline.

 

Even supernanny has made additional serious where the naughty step isnt apropriate, what you have to do is find something that is safe for you as a family individual to your self can use.

 

We now have a sensory room, and in asssessments for a safespace.

 

It is about keeping your son safe and your other people safe.

 

JsMumx