New school = Problems

[baranigirl]

DD (4.5yrs) not dx with anything yet, possibly may not be, but is waiting to see a SALT and the paed again.

 

Started school 4 weeks ago and it was a long dragged out process (a nightmare for working parents as much as anything else)

 

week 1 - 9-11 with half the class, the other half did 1-3 and DD was down for the 1-3 session, but I had that changed to keep structure for her the same

 

Week 2 - 9-12 with the entire class

 

Week 3 - 9-1.15 including stopping for lunch (DD chose school lunches)

 

Week 4 - 9-3 full time day

 

Weeks 1 to 3 went well, I made her a visual timetable and although she didn't like the fact she couldn't stay for lunch weeks 1 and 2 she understood the timetable very well!

 

Week 4 started well, Thursday the teacher asked to speak to me, DD hasn't eaten anything at lunch for 2 days, no-one could get out of her why (she loves her food) and it explained to me why she had been coming home starved

 

Took her home and without putting words into her mouth she has told us there are too many people at school, too much noise in the classroom (I think 25 kids) and playground (50 kids) and the dinner hall is unbearable (120 kids).

 

Friday she refused to go to school and I gave her the choice of going in her Pj's or school clothes and after a good half hour she decided I was being serious and chose her school clothes (yes I would have taken her in her PJ's) I can't be having this battle every morning! She has told me she will do her homework and stay home as she doesn't need to show her teacher her good work as she isn't going to school anymore

 

She has really looked forward to starting school and I am hoping this is just a little blip on her part, however I wonder if her reaction (crying and unable to stop herself crying and tantrumming) is some kind of sensory overload? Her teacher and the dinner ladies are lost as to what to do and I have given them the strategies we use at home when she goes into this kind of emotional behavior (super nanny stuff tbh), she is super quiet in the classroom (something she is not anywhere else)

 

Is there anything else we can suggest as I don't want her to be 'picked out' as different and I really don't know if she has a problem, or traits of AS etc. which will show up in situations like the above? The only thing I can think of is they let her go to dinner 5 mins before the others (during their lining up time) so she can get settled and have eaten something before the hubbub gets too bad, but I realise this is going to be awkward for the school to manage

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, but as said previously I really hope it is just a blip and next week she will be fine

[baddad]

Hi baranigirl -

I think if you want it to be a 'blip' the most important thing is to treat it as a 'blip'. The more you engage with her over it, the more options / discussions you offer etc, the stronger the message will be sent that she has 'control' of the situation. I think underpinning any response (even if it becomes clear that some response / concessions are needed) should be the very clear message that school is school, and that, at four and a half, it's a non-negotiable and she has no say in the matter.

The big problem of offering any adjustment is that it sets a precedent. If you, for example, ask for her to be able to eat lunch 'in private' then why not a 'private' playtime, or a 'private' classroom? She'll also need an exemption from (i.e.) assembly, maybe swimming later on etc etc. Which is not to say that adjustments shouldn't be made, of course, but any that are made do need to be fully considered - both in the short term and long term - because every concession that is made to differentiate for her will also marginalise her and be disabling in the wider context. She cannot possibly understand that because she's far too young, so you have to keep that at the forefront of your thinking on her behalf.

 

I hope you'll appreciate I'm not trivialising her situation, or the anxiety it must be causing you as a parent, but I do think you need to look at it from the 'supernanny' angle you say you use at home before rushing in to provide adjustments in school that are going to set up bigger problems further down the road.

 

A couple of things to think about... If you took her out for a meal at, say McDonalds or Pizza hut, or she went to a party or something would the noise and 'busy-ness' of the environment be enough to stop her eating? If she went to the park or swimming - lets go massive here and say Disneyland! - would she be unable to cope with the crowds to the degree that she broke down/had tantrums? In essence, try to think of similar situations to those she's encountering in school, and ask yourself if it's the situations or whether it's the environment in which the situations are occuring. If there are similar issues in other situations - and it is clear that these other situations are situations she 'likes' rather than having a personal imperative to avoid - then try to transfer the strategies used in those situations to the new ones. ( Hope that makes sense - it did when i thought it! )

One other thing I'd think about is whether any of this behaviour could be being 'modelled' for her. Does she know any other children who have these kinds of issues, or even any adults (I know you've mentioned you suspect your DP has autism, but I'm not sure if these kinds of behaviours are part of those suspicions?)? I have absolutely seen children 'model' their behaviour on other kids (sometimes with very disabling results), and you'll be aware, I'm sure, of how an adult's behaviour - even when unwitting - can effect the way a child thinks about themselves etc. Not suggesting in any way that this is the case here (and it's great to hear that she mostly loves her food! ), but a good, well documented example of the latter is the way in which a mum's or older sisters hang ups about dieting etc and 'does my bum look big in this' can create massive eating disorders in young kids.

 

Sorry there's not much in the way of 'practical' advice (strategies) here, but in a nutshell I think the most improtant thing is to keep clear expectations about 'school' and if you can to try to ride out these problems rather than leaping straight in. If the problems prove 'unrideoutable' ( ) then start looking to adjustments, but in each case make the minimum adjustments you can do to make things work, and always have full integration as the ultimate goal you're building towards.

 

Finally, wherever possible, give her ownership of the problem, and reward her success in dealing with or overcoming it. Have her onboard as someone who wants to be in the main dining room or out on the playground at playtime, and you'll be more than halfway there.

 

HTH

 

L&P

 

BD

[justine1]

hi

 

I think at this stage it is very early to try make any adjustments or similar. Firstly its a new school,no matter how hard we can prepare our little ones for "big school" it can still give them a shock especially when they realise its permanent. The inconsistent timetable at the start may have also cause her a lot of confusion,not sure if she is coming or going, indeed I would say for any child it is bound to do so. From my experience my children were on half days,finished at the same time,for a good few mths before taking the leap to stay all day for lunch,though they did give them some "taster" days in preparation.There was usually a half term or end of term break whereby I could again explain they were going to stay all day. Its seems in your little ones case it was slightly rushed.Though I fully appreciate this may be due to your work committments and cannot be helped.

 

Often the idea of staying for lunch or a full day is vastly different to when its put into practise.Its likely she wanted to be like her older siblings. The setting,the people and what she is eating is probably all very strange to what she was used to.

 

At this stage I wouldnt worry too much about her not eating at school,providing she is still eating a breakfast before school and something in the evening she should be okay.Mention everything to the paed when you go for the appt.You could try and discuss things with her and explain all the positives about going to school and staying for lunch.Does she chose what she will have in her lunchbox? If not maybe you can involve her in this or even let her help prepare her sandwhich etc. These things take time,it does seem the school are working with you(communicating) this can only be a positive in the long run <'>

[Sally44]

I think whether a child can cope in an environment is down to the child and their SEN.

 

My son struggled in reception year because there were two classrooms divided by a curtain. So effectively 60 children, two teachers and around 3 TAs. All children were doing different activities on different tables.

 

After 6 months I was called into school and told that my son was spending the majority of the day doing these things:

 

Banging his head on the walls, floor and tables.

Biting his clothes.

Scratching at his face, hitting himself in the face, poking his eyes

hiding under the table and disappearing into the toilets for long periods of time.

Flooding the toilets by putting toilet paper down the toilet and plug holes.

hiding in the cupboards

rolling himself up in the mats

walking up and down the classroom wall or up and down the length of the table.

Lots of repetitive actions.

 

During playtimes he walked up and down the fence line repeating dialogue to himself.

Played in the dirt

hid under the outside tables

hid behind bushes

He was observed over a week by the school and EP and they said he did not interact or speak with anyone.

 

They also said that he did not understand direct instructions even when given 1:1 and that he did not talk to them.

 

He had frequent headaches, tummy ache and sickness.

 

I got to a stage where I had to strap him into a child's pushchair to get him through the doors.

 

It was hell.

 

In year one he moved to a different classroom. The sensory input was reduced, the classes were smaller and also the classroom acoustics were different because it was carpetted. His behaviours reduced alot there.

 

In year two he was back in the two classrooms with a divided curtain eventhough we all knew he could not access that environment the Head said that the ONLY teacher that she felt could meet his needs was in that classroom.

 

At that stage I tried to get him moved and we started the Statementing process.

 

I think it is well known and documented that children with an ASD have sensory issues. Those will be individual to each child and will affect them differently even on a day to day basis.

 

Your child has told you what the difficulties are, and they seem to me to be quite typical type of difficulties and are things that my son has said to me.

 

Your child was supposed to get 1:3 teaching. I understand why you argued for the same structure throughout the day. But how about you ask school IF they can provide a small group teaching environment. I don't mean 7 children on a table in a class of 30. I mean a teaching environment where there are only around 7 children there. That is really a special school or autism unit type of environment. It would be useful to see if she improves in that environment. However the school just may not be able to do that. The other alternative is for her to be removed from whole class instruction for 1:1 or 1:3 tuition in a quiet environment and again for school to see how she behaves and copes with that. It would be useful to get your child's and schools interpretation of how they cope in the different environments eg. group of 7 for long periods ie. whole morning or whole pm. Or 1:3 for individual sessions and then return to the classroom.

 

For playtime. Again that is area of the day that is difficult for many with an ASD. She will have problems with speech and language on top of the noise and other sensory issues she may have. Does the school have any dinnertime clubs or any structured play or a TA available that can help her. Is there anything she could do in school during breaktimes ie. be the class helper and help the TA set up the class for the next lesson. Again this would be short term, but just to see how she copes with this rather than being turned out into the playground and not being able to cope.

 

Regarding lunchtime. Again another typical time of the day for problems. It is a very noisy and smelly place. What do children do that stop sandwiches. Do they have to eat in the hall, or do they go to a quieter classroom to eat? If the latter would that be a better option. Again many special schools have staggered small group dinner sessions for this very reason.

 

What will happen if she is not listened to and her needs are not met is that she will become anxious. She will know what happened last time and will try to avoid being in that situation again - hence refusal. You need to get some positive experiences for her. And you have to consider whether this school environment is appropriate.

 

As alot of her difficulties are down to sensory and may also include social communication issues, has your daughter been assessed by an OT for sensory integration difficulties? Has the SALT assessed her social interaction and communication skills?

 

So I would talk with school and ask them what 'short term' approaches they can use to try to see what she can cope with. Then you need to know whether those can become long term approaches within that school.

 

I would speak with the autism advisory teacher and get her input and support on this.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Sally44

[baranigirl]

Thank you for these replies, they are very interesting and some differences too

 

Baddad let me reply to your suggestions and ideas first

 

Other situations with similar noise - We rarely take her anywhere because she cannot keep still and I find it too stressful, she asked to leave toddler group if the numbers got too big and the noise level was too high, sometimes after only a few minutes of arriving. I made sure we got there first so the noise built up around her somewhat and that did mean she got longer to play as I did find walking into the hubbub meant we had to leave almost immediately. She would not let up about leaving, therefore there was no enjoyment for her or myself and it was her younger brother who missed out.

 

Not sure about somewhere like Disneyland etc as again we have never been to many places like that and out of MY choice I only visit these type of places during term time and on grotty days as I cannot stand crowds myself. She has been to Legoland once a couple of years ago and that wasn't horrendous, but we had free tickets from a previous visit with my older children and snow cancelling the rides, so if we dod need to leave it wasn't going to be a problem (I have paid you are staying type thing)

 

She asked to leave her own party this year and sat in the corner under the table with her coat on for a good 30 minutes and only came out when the children started to leave, other parties are difficult to weigh up as she has only been to a couple, one at build-a bear, she found that great, around 6 kids and then an allocated space at MacDonalds after - perfect for her. The rest have been in peoples homes so once again quieter and more manageable. The only parties we have had at home have been her brothers, but there is the garden to use as it is summer. The older 2 go out with their mates to celebrate and have long outgrown parties.

 

Swimming - she is having 1:1 lessons, partly because she has no fear of water (the instructor is worried she is going to do something silly and he has many many years experience) and partly because the noise level would be too high in a usual lesson where I work, meaning I would be paying out for her to muck about and possibly spoil the lesson the the other children. Luckily the instructor is a friend as well made through work and we got a good deal on the price

 

Not sure about the learned behaviour, she does behave an awful lot like her Dad, and yes that is in my mind she maybe re-enacting some of his behaviours, but nobody has a hangup about their body shapes here, we are all accepting of what we are and dieting isn't a word we use in this house!

 

She will go to school everyday, even if slightly under the weather, same as my older 2 have done. The school can call me if they feel she is too poorly to attend and the only time off she will have is through D&V and things like that iyswim

 

I think that covers most things

 

Sally answers to your questions

She hasn't seen a SALT yet, just the paed in the summer who has referred her to the SALT. No idea when that will happen or where they will assess her, I am hoping it will be in a usual environment like school

 

School dinners (which she has) are in the small dining hall with yr1 as well as reception. Pack ups go into the main dining hall and the same process, but as less children eat school dinners (16 from reception) it is much quieter in the school dinners hall and she is very used to eating meals away from home as she did this at daycare (breakfast, lunch and dinner)

 

No point speaking to the SENCO at the school, she is next to useless and I know this from experience my 11 year old had her as a teacher in year4 and it was a pointless year, she learned nothing as did the rest of the class and those who did have SEN were stoood on tables and made fools of if they did their work wrong (as were those without SEN too). She herself has a daughter with severe dyspraxia and unless you are worse than her daughter you are fine and this is what she openly tells you are a parent! Yet she is still allowed to teach and be the SENCO at the school...

 

Justine -

The school drew out the process over 4 weeks giving the parents no choice over how it was mananged and I believe this has been the starting of her problems as each week there was a change. Had she started fulltime straight away, yes she maybe having the lunchtime issues as well, but the whole integration for her would have been simplified and more on a par to daycare she was already attending. My work committments were put on hold for these 4 weeks and we are now suffering financiially as a result, but I had to be around for her to ensure she was coming and going from school fine. All round it would have been better to start fulltime and be done with it, the system they used is too cotton wool like and fluffy for me!

 

Overall I am going to 'see' how we go for a few more days, try a bit of bribery with a reward chart of some description (not that she has liked this on previous attempts) continue with my supernanny no nonsense approach (why change a habit of a lifetime) and fingers crossed it will be the blip I am hoping it is, oh we have stopped asking her about it anyways, same thing about her pooping in her nappy at night time, have stopped asking her not to do it and just clean her up each morning. I can't see her being 15 and still doing it

[baddad]

 

Not sure about the learned behaviour, she does behave an awful lot like her Dad, and yes that is in my mind she maybe re-enacting some of his behaviours, but nobody has a hangup about their body shapes here, we are all accepting of what we are and dieting isn't a word we use in this house!

 

Just to reiterate - I wasn't making any sort of connection about her nor eating school lunches and 'modelled behaviour'. I only mentioned that, as i said, because it is the most well reported, acknowledged and widespread 'type' of reenactment of modelled behaviour, and was for that reason, I felt, the best generalised example I could offer. Having read your new post I can see that relating 'crowd' or 'noise' issues to your own dislike of crowds would have been a better example in this instance, but i didn't know about your issues in these areas when i first posted. It really does sound, though, as if this could be part of the 'problem', especially as she would be likely to 'muck about' in your own noisier swimming group rather than actually finding it distressing. - i.e. how she responds is 'situation specific' (also implied by the legoland trip) rather than a direct negative reaction to noise/crowds per se.

I'd also agree completely with justine's observations about the inconsistent timetable etc, and all of the other potential problems that could have raised (and, BTW, the factor of her not eating in school - a good breakfast and tea and nowt really in the short term worth wasting a good worry over!) Fully appreciate that was the school's doing, but even so you can't really come to any long term conclusions until she's done at least a few weeks of 'full time school'.

 

L&P

 

BD

[baranigirl]

Thanks BD, I could see what you meant in your original post

 

As I typed that I kind of hit those conclusions too (about myself), in fact I have discovered an awful lot about myself in the past year!

 

Today she broke down at her girls brigade enrollment, she said without any prompting it was too many people and the singing she didn't like.

 

Am not overly concerned about her not eating per se, as she eats for England usually and going without lunch isn't going to harm her, but it will harm my fridge budget LOL!

 

The inconsistent timetable is definitely the key and I bought this up with the school in May when they announced it, I have also completed a survey asking what we thought of the new system :whistle:

 

Keep your fingers crossed she starts coping better this week