Well educated but not able to convince employers to offer a job

[anewman]

I have a first class honours degree from a reasonable University (ex polytechnic) in Psychology, and a pass with merit at masters level in Psychological approaches to health from one of the top Universities in the country. However, when it comes to interviews in particular, and tests I feel I am not able to display my capabilities adequately. I am not sure if this is due to Aspergers or not. Similarly I found that under pressure in exams at University my grades tended to be lower in modules assessed by exam than those assessed by coursework. Under stress it is almost like there's a block and I cannot recall various things, even if I know about them - I understand this is a natural feature of stress. I find it hard to justify asking for a work trial instead of assessment and I am sure most employers for those type of jobs would never offer such an opportunity anyway. Stress would probably still make it difficult until I got used to the work environment.

 

I feel this is something I will never be able to overcome and I am destined for a lifetime in non-challenging somewhat boring minimum wage jobs, if I can even get one of those having never had a job and now being 30 years old. I feel particularly unhappy that I chose to take out an £8k loan to do the Masters course with the mistaken belief it would help me get a job. I currently do some voluntary work 2 days a week, which has helped me slightly but is definitely not a magic wand that will make getting paid work easier, other than it being something I can put on my CV and application forms. I will still have the same difficulties when it comes to interviews.

Edited November 26, 2010 by anewman

[Eccentric]

Hello, Anewman, welcome to the forum.

 

From what I've read, and from my own experience, this is very typical in AS people: they often do very well in education, obtaining advanced qualifications, but then find they can't get work. I'm at university myself, as a mature student, but having been unemployed for most of my life I find it difficult to be optimistic about getting work when I finish university next year. A high proportion of autistic people are unemployed. AS people do well in education because we're good at understanding intellectual ideas and we devote ourselves more thoroughly to the work - partly because we're less likely to be distracted by all the socialising that the other students indulge in. Whereas work, especially graduate work, involves having to get involved in all sorts of different things that AS people find difficult to cope with.

 

Are you diagnosed with AS? If so, you might be able to get ESA (Employment Support Allowance). You'll probably still have to look for work but they'll accept you have special difficulties - I don't know what conditions they lay down though, hopefully someone else on this forum will be able to help.

 

At my university, the staff expect most of us to become managers, but this is rarely a suitable job for AS people. The best thing is not to compare yourself with other educated people - just think about what kind of work will suit you as an individual.

[Bluesbreaker]

I'm the opposite, I can do rubbish in education, but outside of that I excel.... strange...

[oxgirl]

I can relate to this very much. I've been looking for work for two years, after a 17 year break bringing up my son. I KNOW I could do an extremely efficient job, but I find it impossible to convince interviewers of my skills. I find it almost impossible to answer open questions such as 'can you think of an example of where you've worked as part of a team', my mind just goes blank. I know if they gave me the chance I would be able to do the job very well, but I can't get past the interview. I don't know what the answer is. I had an interview last week, the first in a year, and it's so frustrating knowing that I'm not putting myself across well. I'd done lots of research into the kinds of things they might ask, and what I might answer, but when I got in there they caught me out with questions I wasn't expecting, the panel were staring at me and I just froze up and mumbled like a monkey. No wonder I didn't get the job, they must have thought me a total imbecile. My confidence is at rock bottom, I wish they hadn't offered me an interview, it's just made me feel worse about myself.

 

So, really sorry, absolutely no advice to give, but know how you feel.

 

~ Mel ~

[KezT]

TBH, I know plenty of NT people with exactly the same problem. Some people are just not very good at selling themselves - espcially when it's a job they don't really want

 

My advice would be to take a botom end job in a big firm and get noticed for the good work you're doing. Internal prmotion is the ideal route for you.... My brother (not dx'd - definitely ASD tho) finally got an IT job with the perfect company 10 years ago and by just sitting there doing it well has managed to get promoted twice - once without even realising it

Edited November 27, 2010 by KezT

[matzoball]

I hate to sound like an advert for the National Autistic Society, but you should give Prospects a wee call. They help people like us develop work and interview skills and also advocate in the workplace. You can secure funding from the goverment via Access To Work.

 

It's really worth checking out, as they helped me in my last job, and helped me get into Specialisterne(an IT company that only employs people on the spectrum).

 

They really have your back! If you go on the website I'm sure you can find the local branch.

[anewman]

I find it almost impossible to answer open questions such as 'can you think of an example of where you've worked as part of a team', my mind just goes blank. I know if they gave me the chance I would be able to do the job very well, but I can't get past the interview. I don't know what the answer is. I had an interview last week, the first in a year, and it's so frustrating knowing that I'm not putting myself across well. I'd done lots of research into the kinds of things they might ask, and what I might answer, but when I got in there they caught me out with questions I wasn't expecting, the panel were staring at me and I just froze up and mumbled like a monkey.

Yes almost exactly the same for me. Had an interview recently and was asked "what's the difference between a census and a survey?" and I replied with a brief but accurate answer that "a census is of the entire population, but a survey would be of a sample of the population" and the impression I got from the feedback was I needed to give more like a long essay answer to the question and to go on at length about it - which it is not in my nature to do. At least there were none of those teamwork questions as I find them terrible to answer. Even worse for me is that at this interview there was a multiple choice test, a written essay test, another written essay test, plus another written essay test - and a presentation based on one of the written essays. One of the most arduous assessments for a job I have ever undertaken. All the stress just doesn't help. The presentation was an absolute nightmare

 

The thing that I hate most about it all is that in instances when I think I did particularly well, so well I doubt I could ever do better - I'm still nowhere near good enough for them and it's a severe confidence crusher. I almost gave up applying for jobs as I knew what the outcome of interviews would be, and my most recent experience confirms that - but at least they pay expenses for a night's stay in London and travel there and back

 

you should give Prospects a wee call. They help people like us develop work and interview skills and also advocate in the workplace. You can secure funding from the goverment via Access To Work.

Unfortunately on checking the website in the past it seems they only operate the Prospects scheme in a few places. I may call them though to ask as they may know more about things in my area than I do.

 

I really wish I could just say I have Asperger Syndrome and the employer just know what difficulties this might make me have and be somewhat sympathetic about it and give me a chance. I feel I look like a complete no-hoper wherever I go.

Edited December 1, 2010 by anewman

[ScienceGeek]

Maybe Remploy might be able to help? I know they have joined up with the NAS now so if Prospects isn't in your area then Remploy might be?

[alanm]

I KNOW I could do an extremely efficient job, but I find it impossible to convince interviewers of my skills. I find it almost impossible to answer open questions such as 'can you think of an example of where you've worked as part of a team', my mind just goes blank. I know if they gave me the chance I would be able to do the job very well, but I can't get past the interview.

This shows just how much interviews suck, particularly for those of us with Aspergers.

 

I found this on the Guardian, which sums it all up. "The prospective employer reads the unwillingness to shake hands, difficulty making eye contact and hesitation in speech as coldness or incompetence, and the applicant is rejected." I'm not "unwilling" to shake hands but know I'm not as "firm" at it as its perceived I ideally should be. I do have very hesitant speech, this is the first time I've seen an article explicity referring to it as "coldness". I had guessed from when I had been employed my experience of previous stern supervisors that they did seem to see me as "incompetent" from the tone they spoke to me with, and that when out of work and attending interviews that was again how it could be seen.

 

This puts another angle on the issue of whether or not to admit my condition on the initial written application, if it is an open covering letter rather than an application form with a disability question. On one hand I'm told "don't say it as you just won't get an interview", on the other it may help to prepare them for my hesitant speech. That said of course there were those interviews I had where I had said it in my letter, still got interviewed, but they hadn't noticed it and still wanted the communication aspects of the jobs so was eliminated anyway.

 

The comment on the article by a writer called "Darkblade" puts it well: "Most job application forms have a place where you can fill in if you have a disability or similar. Maybe it would be advisable for people with Asperger's syndrome to complete this section. Perhaps they don't want to because they fear stigma and misunderstanding - and think that this will mean they just won't get the interview in the first place. Or, getting to interview stage, there is often a question beforehand about 'special requirements' where, I suppose, it's expected that people might ask about wheelchair access etc, but it might also be appropriate to mention if the candidate has Asperger's syndrome so that it can be taken into account at the interview. I think that in order to encourage people to 'disclose' Asperger's syndrome at application or pre-interview stage, employers definitely need to be educated better about Asperger's syndrome".

 

One comment writer called "Muggedbyreality" does seem to hold firm their belief that people with AS are unemployable and makes a sarcastic comment about whether they are going to be told to employ someone with AS in sales. Another called "ThermoStat" stands up to Muggedbyreality asking "What do you suggest? That Aspies are left unemployed and in receipt of benefits for their entire life. Is that sustainable?" Muggedbyreality replies "Of course not. But private companies are not charities - why should they be expected to redefine the way they work or take people who aren't suited for the job? The author is asking for what are essentially either sinecures in HR or a complete change to the way HR works." It's not about asking for a complete change to the way HR works but more subtle redefinition of some manpower in a team, e.g. someone with AS can do what they are good at while a colleague takes on communication tasks that might normally have been in the AS person's role, should not be too much to ask in a reasonably sized employer.

 

I don't know what the answer is.

I think one "answer" would be if Jobcentres could persuade employers to use their "Work Trial" scheme for applicants with AS, this would give them the chance to demonstrate what they CAN do, and they'd be able to sell their skills better than with conventional interviewing especially with open questions like that quoted. The Jobcentre should make the point of stressing to the employer that the Work Trial is at no cost to them for up to 30 days. I added this information to so many applications yet still didn't get offered that possibility, which was so frustrating when I know it is how I would better be able to demonstrate my capability. Edited December 13, 2010 by alanm

[Tally]

I found this on the Guardian, which sums it all up. "The prospective employer reads the unwillingness to shake hands, difficulty making eye contact and hesitation in speech as coldness or incompetence, and the applicant is rejected." I'm not "unwilling" to shake hands but know I'm not as "firm" at it as its perceived I ideally should be. I do have very hesitant speech, this is the first time I've seen an article explicity referring to it as "coldness". I had guessed from when I had been employed my experience of previous stern supervisors that they did seem to see me as "incompetent" from the tone they spoke to me with, and that when out of work and attending interviews that was again how it could be seen.

OK, these are actually quite clear issues that you could work on.

 

You could practice your handshake.

 

Hesitant speech is a difficult one because it normally stems from anxiety. An interview is a nervous situation at the best of times, it is difficult to cover it up if you are feeling anxious. However, it could be beneficial to work on making a good first impression. People give a lot of value to first impressions. A bad one is difficult to undo, but if you can make a good one people will often overlook mistakes later on. If you can go in with a warm smile and your practiced firm handshake, that will make a good first impression. If you can't make eye contact, then at least looking at the person's face will give the impression that you are interested in what they are saying. Maybe you can practice some things you can say when you first meet the interviewer, before the actual interview starts. If you are practiced you will feel more confident about saying it and may be less hesitant. Even something simple like, "hello, it's nice to meet you," would be a good way to start.

 

If you get into difficulties with your speech, I think it's OK to say something like, "sorry, I'm very nervous because I really want this job."

 

It would also be good to go in with a clear list of how Asperger's can affect you in the workplace and any adjustments you would like the employer to make - the simpler the better. You could also mention that it's difficult for you to think quickly in social situations and present your best side in an interview.

[alanm]

Hesitant speech is a difficult one because it normally stems from anxiety. An interview is a nervous situation at the best of times, it is difficult to cover it up if you are feeling anxious. However, it could be beneficial to work on making a good first impression. People give a lot of value to first impressions. A bad one is difficult to undo, but if you can make a good one people will often overlook mistakes later on. If you can go in with a warm smile and your practiced firm handshake, that will make a good first impression. If you can't make eye contact, then at least looking at the person's face will give the impression that you are interested in what they are saying. Maybe you can practice some things you can say when you first meet the interviewer, before the actual interview starts. If you are practiced you will feel more confident about saying it and may be less hesitant. Even something simple like, "hello, it's nice to meet you," would be a good way to start. If you get into difficulties with your speech, I think it's OK to say something like, "sorry, I'm very nervous because I really want this job."

Hiya, appreciate your reply. Will say on that note I am smiley by nature (hence that I did put that in bold in the quote), and do get to say a lot of "hello, it's nice to meet you"s in friendly social situations which helps. Likewise I get to do a fair few handshakes, I try to be as firm as possible given that I'm of a light build. Could be worth asking some of said social friends if they think my handshakes with them are firm enough for "interview standards", don't normally think of it when out socially though as I, and they, are there to enjoy an event.

 

I had more wanted to post the link up to emphasise that the Guardian, in writing the article, had recognised that difficulty in interviews was a common problem, and to empathise with the original poster and Oxgirl as opposed to merely posting about my own situation. I also wanted to throw the Work Trial possibility into the thread and see if many of those reading who are jobseekers knew about it, had any luck suggesting it to employers etc, emphasising how while interviewing is still regarded by so many as the only way to assess people, if the alternative of work trials was more widely used, would more people with AS get jobs if assessed that way? My DEA agreed in principal but admitted even the Jobcentres themselves weren't pushing them as much anyway because they'd actually been misused by some employers.

[Eccentric]

I've had work trials before. They're a useful way both for you to try out the job (and the employer) and for the employer to try out you. They're not a substitute for an interview - they usually want to interview you as well - but if they're willing to give you a work trial the interview will probably be less formal and involved.

 

Some employers know about work trials, others have to be told about it. The big companies, or Government organisations, are more likely to know about them. It's unfortunate that some employees are abusing it, but let's not let that put us off.

 

The work trials I had didn't lead to me getting the jobs, but it enabled me to find out that they weren't suitable jobs for me.

[leeds_demon]

Hello, Anewman, welcome to the forum.

 

From what I've read, and from my own experience, this is very typical in AS people: they often do very well in education, obtaining advanced qualifications, but then find they can't get work. I'm at university myself, as a mature student, but having been unemployed for most of my life I find it difficult to be optimistic about getting work when I finish university next year. A high proportion of autistic people are unemployed. AS people do well in education because we're good at understanding intellectual ideas and we devote ourselves more thoroughly to the work - partly because we're less likely to be distracted by all the socialising that the other students indulge in. Whereas work, especially graduate work, involves having to get involved in all sorts of different things that AS people find difficult to cope with.

 

Are you diagnosed with AS? If so, you might be able to get ESA (Employment Support Allowance). You'll probably still have to look for work but they'll accept you have special difficulties - I don't know what conditions they lay down though, hopefully someone else on this forum will be able to help.

 

At my university, the staff expect most of us to become managers, but this is rarely a suitable job for AS people. The best thing is not to compare yourself with other educated people - just think about what kind of work will suit you as an individual.

 

I only gained a 2:2 in BA (Hons)Combined Studies, as I didn't really study much (health policy was a cinch, so I didn't need to revise that) and I scraped a Pass in my Master's (had to re-do my Master's Dissertation as I failed that). So your idea that autistic people devote themselves to the work, is a load of hooey in my case. However, i have been diagnosed with AS. I suppose it didn't help that I just couldn't be bothered to revise (I lack self-motivation) and because I didn't enjoy/like some of my subjects, I didn't revise.

 

Likewise, for my Master's, I studied Epidemilogy & Statistics, which I didn't understand. Ergo, according to your thesis, I don't have AS, as I didn't get a 1st in my BA and scraped a Pass for my Master's.

[Aeolienne]

Maybe Remploy might be able to help? I know they have joined up with the NAS now so if Prospects isn't in your area then Remploy might be?

I've been none too impressed with Remploy when I've had dealings with them. They don't seem at all geared towards graduates.

[jlineton]

Are you diagnosed with AS? If so, you might be able to get ESA (Employment Support Allowance). You'll probably still have to look for work but they'll accept you have special difficulties - I don't know what conditions they lay down though, hopefully someone else on this forum will be able to help.

 

What do you have to do to convince JobCenter plue or ATOS that your AS entitles you to ESA? Do you get paid ESA during the assessment phase? Do they take account of depression?

 

Regards

[robert7111a]

Hi, just to add my take on this

 

I'm the first to admit that I don't interview well either but whether that's down to having AS traits or not is anybody's guess. Many NT people don't interview well either.

 

I think the bottom line is that most jobs require you to get along with people so at the risk of sounding a bit harsh, perhaps it might be a good idea to learn and brush up interview techniques. Of course, presentation is key and things like a warm handshake are all part of how you present yourself which employers look for.

 

The problem these days (and no disrespect to you) is that most graduates "expect" to get the into their chosen career straight away where they have little or no work experience; in addition, degrees are so commonplace now, employers have to look for other qualities in prospective candidates. I see this in my own profession. Just because somebody has a degree does not mean they can do the job. Unfortunately the Government has created this culture of "get a degree...follow your talents...and there's a guaranteed job at the end of it for you. Sadly in the real world, this is not the case

 

Social skills are important for just about any job and I don't think there is any getting away from this however, there are jobs well suited for Aspies (where working alone is part of the job description) - such as a train driver to give one example...google such jobs, there are many out there.

 

I'm afraid you might just have to accept any job, do well in it and build up a good reputation for yourself. Many Aspies are well known for being honest, reliable and very good workers given the right environment. Also if you want to become a Psychologist, then I'm afraid social skills is a requirement. My profession means dealing with other people's problems daily so it was a wake-up call for me when I first started out.

 

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but the world of work out there is like a sea of sharks.

 

And...I think Remploy are making redundancies now...

 

Good luck!

[robert7111a]

I forgot to add...I am not well educated, I failed miserably at school with rudimentary exams but did manage to get a couple of O/A levels a few years later.

 

With interviews, it's not about answering the question correctly/incorrectly but how well you cope under pressure. If you don't know the answer, it's better to say "I don't know" or "can we come back to that one please?" then fumble your way through. It's about staying in control. If you crack under pressure in the interview, how will you cope with pressure in the job. Just a tip.

 

There are many books out there about interview skills etc. Also, do some research on the company you are applying for. Think in advance what questions they might ask.

 

As I said in my previous post...preparation is everything.

 

 

not about answering the question

[LancsLad]

Robert I think you make some very good points about expectations and that there are no guarantees of a job after a degree at whatever level.

 

To add to the post the big issue I am finding is with employers. I have worked previously at high levels in a previous profession and have run my own bussiness. I have invested mid life in retraining in another sector and as such I have all the right qualifications and experience in respect to management and would be happy to get a foot on the ladder as I am very confident in my ability level, in reality this would amopunt to a pay cut from previous levels of arounf £15k to £20k, the problem I am facing all the time is 'internships'.

 

The expectation out there is that I should start as an intern aged 46 and work doing a professional job for an amount of money which means I can not get close to breaking even when you factor in travelling costs etc... The truth is that many of the 22 to 25 year olds who went through my masters course have spent the last two years being subsidised by mummy and daddy working through their contacts getting a bit of an internship here and there. They are working for their money and are doing very similar work to other established employees with little or no supervision. As interns they have no real employment rights and so are simply nothing more than well trained agency work. The people who are benefiting in this scenario are the employers who are seeing it as an ideal structure in a market where work is not easy to find. Personally I could go freelance but the costs of things such as public liability insurance to cover my work mean that unless I could guarantee regular work I would be in danger of loosing my house simply due to professional overheads.

 

What really concerns me is that we are still continuing to push students through a university sausage machine based on false promisses when the reality of the outside world is there is very little in the way of capacity in the system to accomodate them. For intrest the area i trained in was Landscape Architecture, with a specialist emphasis on sustainability and environmental design. I was persueded by a government campaign saying there was a massive skills shortage in this area. the campaign is still running though there is no work around due to a lot of changes in legislation, planning and cutbacks at regional levels. However my previous university continues to increase its student numbers year after year to the levels it is allowed to.

 

Just a few thoughts on a very difficult climate out there at the moment.

[robert7111a]

Indeed you are right LancsLad and my profession is no exception. Masses of M.Sc graduates coming through the system and nowhere to employ them.

 

I thought internships were unpaid. Have I got this wrong? But yes, in any case, its a cheap way for employers to hire workers for next to nothing and with no contract; then just fire them and get somebody else.

 

BTW I just noticed the original poster posted this 2 years ago...I just saw the recent date when the previous posters wrote in so hopefully, anewman is in employment now