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westie

Maths..... same level for 3yrs action needed? also english

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Just a quick question

 

My son has just moved into Y7 (mainstream secondary has a statement)its his annual review tomorrow. They give you a breakdown by subject of his current attainment levels, and his expected grades at the end of the year.

 

He is behind at level 3a in english and maths.

 

In terms of english, a comment from the schools annual review report says that he struggles to read "beyond the literal" and his punctuation and sentence structure is behind. His handwriting is also difficult to read even for him. He writes capital letters at random, reverses letters sometimes (J is a common one, even though it is in his name) and he also mixes up left and right. He use an alphasmart for some lessons and the TA must write things for him sometimes (there is work in his books that is def. not written down by him!). He is also this week starting extra english lessons to bring him up to level 4 by end of year.

 

In previous tests by the learning support service and during his assessments have given a lower than expected result (esp. reading comprehension) and he has always struggled with writing but I wonder if he has a specific learning difficulty?

 

Especially I am worried about his maths results, he is currently at level 3a and this is the "aspirational level" he is expected to reach at the end of the year as well....

He has been at this level since 2008, so over two years It was commented on in last years annual review that he was still at same level as previous year in maths. Again could this be a specific learning difficulty and should I ask for some sort of assessment?

 

He is doing well in science, level 4a and should get to level 5a! In some other subject areas he is average (level 3/4), and in art and french he is at level 2a (he hasnt done much french in primary, so this is to be expected and his poor motor skills/ pencil control mean I am not surprised about the art level). His gross motor skills are below average according to the school report for his annual review.

 

What do others think, am I worrying about nothing or do you think I should push for assessment/more help for him (particularly in relation to maths?)

 

thanks in advance!

 

p.s. heading should say for past 2yrs sorry for error it will not let me edit now

Edited by westie

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Firstly all children are supposed to make progress.

Your child has a spiky profile, typical of his diagnosis.

His difficulties may well fall within a SpLD.

Yes the school should be seeking advice. Ideally they should start getting advice after two IEP targets have remained the same or not been met, not two years.

 

The difficulty will be in getting someone to do something about it. I'm sort of in the same position for my son.

 

Yours might have dyslexia and/or dyscalculia. And the things that cause a SpLD can fall under the difficulties typcial of an ASD, or may include other problems such as auditory processing, left/right hand dominance, sensory integration etc.

 

Who is attending the Annual Review? For such persistent difficulties you can ask the EP to attend.

For Annual Reviews all professionals should do up to date reports and submit them at least two week prior.

Ask the EP if she can assess for dyslexia, dyscalculia?

Is your LEAs department for SpLD involved? Have school sought their advice?

 

You can phone Dyslexia Action or the Dyslexia Association. They can assess, or they can give you the name of someone who can assess.

 

I've recently been looking into this and have been recommended for my son to be seen by a Clinical Neuropsychologist because they look more at how the brain works that just an EP. They should be able to tell you the specific cognitive difficulties the child has and where their strengths and weaknesses are, which should reflect in the teaching approaches and supports being used in school.

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I just wanted to add that as well as finding out how to teach and support him so that he makes progress, they should also be looking at remediation ie. to help him gain lost ground.

 

You may benefit from some support from a DA befriender. There is usually a local telephone line and a contact. They can support you at IEPs and sometimes at tribunal as well, but you may need the diagnosis of SpLD to get provision into the Statement.

 

You can have a look at the Jim Rose Report. That details the kinds of difficulties and help that a child should receive. The CoP also details 'specialist teaching' maybe an appropriate provision in the Statement.

 

There are different ways of delivering specialist teaching. You can look on the Crested website for Dyslexia schools (many also have children with AS or ASDs. But they are independents and would entail a tribunal etc.

 

There was a recent programme on the BBC about Dyslexia. If is somewhere in one of the forums. I'll try to find it and link it. That is interesting to see.

 

There are different types of SpLD and it is useful to know what the difficulties are. The LEA EP has diagnosed my son with dyslexia, but has not carried out any dyslexia specific assessments to determine what his actual difficulties are. And she has not detailed what she thinks his problems are either. That is not very good. Dyslexia affects children differently in the same way that an ASD does.

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This is the link.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00vy8c7

 

What is interesting about this programme is that it highlights that things like short term memory, poor organisation and planning, visual perceptual difficulties and low self esteem etc are all linked.

 

What I also found very interesting was "how" tara had to learn her lines as an actress. That way of using up so much energy "memorising" is typical of my son.

 

The programme might give you some insights and ideas for your child.

Edited by Sally44

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My son has just moved into Y7 (mainstream secondary has a statement)its his annual review tomorrow. They give you a breakdown by subject of his current attainment levels, and his expected grades at the end of the year.

 

You need to check how these target grades are produced.

 

It can be based on past rate of progress, or on the progress a child should make over a year (but you have said he has not made expected progress before), or on the progress the teachers think he will make. My sons' end of year/KS grades at secondary never matched up to actual grades achieved.

 

There is some disparity between levels at end of KS2 and end of year 7 (ie: a L3a at one is not the same as a L3a at the the other).

 

You should be concerned that he has not made progress over the last two years. This needs to be addressed and may include assessments by EP or for dyslexia.

 

Did his previous IEPs show that he did make progress?

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Hi, yes I would have cause for concern and you need to put this in Writing to your LEA special needs manager as well as CC it to your schools SENCO, once you have raised these concerns then your son should access the assessments and stratagies, I think it could look very likely he could be diagnosed Dyslexia but if he isnt you need to put across his difficulties so he can still access support, that way the LEA can not get out of meeting his needs because he doesnt have a diagnosis, your son is already showing significant litracy difficultie.

 

My son has Severe Dyslexia and the LEA kept this undiagnosed until 2008 when it was finally excepted when we where going throw SENDIST for a specialist educational placement, it is obvous as day J has litracey difficulties but the LEA tried to insinuate he didnt have the difficulties he had, when he did, and when we finally got the diagnosis the LEA said he wouldnt get any more support than what he was already recieving which was half an hour a week, now he gets a lot more litracy support, including Full time LSA who scribes, writes and assists with J in reading.

 

My son did not get a SAT level English in yr 6 as he was excempt but he gained level 3 in Maths and Science of which was still an achievement because he only did 20 odd days in the whole of yr 6 when in mainstream primary.

 

J has recieved wonderful litracy support from his Dyslexia Supporter since in the last 2yrs, and he has wonderful writing, and he has made progress but he is still significantly behind his peers, and as he advances throw the levels in Maths and Science so does the Litracy in these subjects and he is really struggling with the language and comprehension and this is where he is starting to fall behind his peers in Maths, yet in science he is level 5/6 and could be possibly more if had the comprehension/language,litracy ability.

 

So Dyslexia/litracy impairments doesnt just effect English, but it effects other subjects where litracy is required.

 

My son has a very spiky profile and much of that is due to the severe Dyslexia and having a mixture of difficulties, as well as communication impairments.

 

I would absaloutly recommend Dyslexia Action, without thier input J wouldnt of recieved a diagnosis if left to the LEA picking it up and dont let the LEA try the well it wont add any more support, because it will, you can even request part 4 of a statement state a Spersific Learning Difficulties Special school that caters for that need if you proved he needed it, so there is a need to identify that particular difficulty.

 

JsMumx

Edited by JsMum

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One poster mentioned getting a neuropsychological assessment. My son had this and it was very enlightening in terms of providing clear pointers as to what the specific difficulties and strengths were as well as giving percentile values to these so that you could see where the discrepancies lay (e.g. high IQ, low processing speed with a 60% difference). This gives good solid stuff to help the school and get support. What it doesn't do is say how to help these discrepancies, which is where we are at, especially as they tend to emerge as emotional problems. You are right to be concerned that there is apparently no progress, although I would be asking to look at sub-level progress as it may be that there is progress within some areas of literacy, but not consistent across the attainment targets to allow for the achievement of a level. Hope your review goes well.

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Thanks all I will print your replies and look through them - there is a lot to think about. I have a lot of stuff to ask at the meeting tomorrow (there are some other issues as well recently, to be expected with such a big move) I appreciate your advice, and am going to have a look at the program you posted a link to sally. I will let you know how the meeting goes, and what the school think.

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Good luck for tomorrow.

Remember that the law has changed now in that you can appeal if the LEA does not make changes, as well as appeal if they do make changes.

How is he coping in Y7 at a maintained secondary school?

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meeting cancelled. school closed due to snow....

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hi I emailed school about these concerns, and other concerns relating to his mental health, anxiety etc (which will impact on his learning too) as I thought it might be clearer, and give them time to prepare. They responded quickly in relation to other concerns and we are to discuss the educational things at meeting when rearranged. They want me to get him to CAMHS and also they getting ed psych and autism comm. team involved.

 

with regards to a Clinical Neuropsychologist assessment, where and how can I get one of them? Will I have to pay to go private? I live in South Yorkshire.

 

Thanks everyone for your help. X

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hi I emailed school about these concerns, and other concerns relating to his mental health, anxiety etc (which will impact on his learning too) as I thought it might be clearer, and give them time to prepare. They responded quickly in relation to other concerns and we are to discuss the educational things at meeting when rearranged. They want me to get him to CAMHS and also they getting ed psych and autism comm. team involved.

 

with regards to a Clinical Neuropsychologist assessment, where and how can I get one of them? Will I have to pay to go private? I live in South Yorkshire.

 

Thanks everyone for your help. X

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We gor a neuropsyhchological assessment through specialist CAMHS after it became clear that CBT wasn't shifting the frustration causing my son's mental distress. She felt there were problems with his processing but because he was very intelligent, he had some ineffective) coping strategies that masked things. He went fro 3 2 hour sessions and the results were illuminating, and in fact the spiky pattern of his abilities/difficulties led to him being referred on for ASD diagnosis. I have to say, though, I know very few people who have had the privilege of this level of testing so I don't know what makes you eligible for it, but certainly it was a golden key for my son - people have taken his difficulties a lot more seriously since.

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I asked him about his writing today,and why he writes particular letters as capitals. He said that he always writes B and D as capitals as when he writes them as small letters he mixes them up as he cant remember which way to write them.....

not sure about A and R though, these are two others he seems to mostly write as capitals..

 

Thanks all for your responses.

Still not sure of date of meetings, schools have been closed all week, not sure about what will happen next week so will let you know what they say at school.

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Has he ever been given a "bed" card? If he can remember how to spell bed, then he hopefully will be able to write them round the right way.

 

See the picture half way down this page:

http://www.dyslexia-england.co.uk/magazine30.html

 

wow thanks for this, its a really good way to remember. I am going to save the link to my favourites as I am sure there are others I know who will benefit too!

 

:thumbs::thumbs::notworthy:

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Also look at visual dysgraphia. This can include writing lower and upper case letters within words (in addition to problems with reversals etc). If using "bed" does not seem to be enough, google "bear with the long hair" and you should come across a reading system that uses pictures to help the child remember the orientation of letters because it is associated with a picture story ie. the bear bumps into the flat side of the "b". If you write it the other way round that is wrong because the bear would trip over the "d" and would not be able to bang his head.

 

My understanding of what visual dysgraphia is, is that the person has difficulty (which can be from mild to severe) retrieving relevent information from the brain to the hand to put it into symbol form.

 

For example, my son can read much better than he can write (reading is supposed to be an easier skill than writing generally). Because when you read you are decoding what you can see. With writing you have no clues to work with. You have to translate auditory 'sound' into "written symbol". To do that you must retrieve that coded symbol form (from memory) and what it represents and put it onto paper.

 

For example, my son attempted to spell "tractor" "raTon uFo". That was about a year ago. More recently he spelt "feathers" as "feVers".

 

There are so many other skills involved in reading and writing, that when you begin to look at it you wonder how anyone ever manages to do it!! For example auditory processing has to be good. Delays in processing or problems with visual/auditory integration can cause the McGurk effect whereby speech is 'heard' differently. If you google it you can find some video examples of it. That shows how much we need good integration otherwise everyones speech can sound and look like a badly dubbed film.

 

Problems with left/right hand dominance can cause writing problems where letters are written in the wrong sequence or back to front or mirror image.

 

I always find it most useful to work with what your child is actually doing and try to understand what could be causing that.

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Annual review was on friday, they told me the reading assessment that they gave him (which included comprehension) showed he had age appropriate reading skills. The legibility of his writing is a concern but he using alternative forms of recording,and still doing some writing. (he complains about pain in his hand after writing for some time think related to low muscle tone?). They said his spelling is not so good, and they are testing him again in Jan. and deciding if he needs further help. He is receiving some booster english lessons so will see how that goes. Don't think they see him having a specific learning difficulty in this area.

 

They also did not appear to be too concerned about the maths, however I was (and still am!) and asked them to speak to his maths teacher and look into whether they can further differentiate his work to allow him to progress.

I do not think that making no progress from first term of Y5 to the end of Y7 (if he achieves is aspirational target) was really acceptable. they said that a level 3 at primary is not the same as level 3 at secondary but still his maths teacher, according to their report, still does not expect him to progress beyond the level he is already at. I had looked back at his history (those saved annual reviews came in handy all those years later!)and he has been behind since Y2, with comments being made each review. The time when he did make significant progress was when he was working in a small group with other children who were struggling a lot, with a very differentiated workload and practical aids in a program designed by senco who was very experienced in working with children with SEN - in this group he moved 3 sub levels from a 2a to a 3a in one term at the start of Y5! So maybe just putting him in a lower set is not enough to make a difference. They also told me I can discuss my concerns with the Ed psych when we have a meeting in the new year, and meanwhile they are to look further into the maths issue.

 

I was very happy with the meeting overall, they have supported his referal to CAMHS (I have asked GP) and they are getting autism communication team in too. They also suggested we reduce homework to just core subjects of maths, english and science for a time, to reduce pressure. His TA is brilliant, and listens to feedback from him and us and acts upon it. In fact the staff I have met so far are all good, and even his teachers who I have yet to meet seem to be a pretty understanding bunch. He has had a better week last week overall, seems a bit happier though he did have a couple of upsets.

 

They told me his effort grade (variable in maths) is affected by a number of things, its not purely a reflection of behaviour/ attention in class. I think I have figured part of the reason why it is 'variable' - he is completing his homework and not handing it in! He has not handed his work in today despite him finishing it yesterday, and thinking back I have found two or three maths sheets that have been completed and not been handed in. He seems unconcerned. I cant understand why he would not hand it in if it is finished, unless he thinks it is wrong??

 

Anyway thanks all for your help and suggestions and support. I will let you know how the meetings in the new term go, and whether there is anything that can be done to help with the maths.

Lets hope LEA maintain his statement (cant see why not but you never know!) X

Edited by westie

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I still think it is worth you phoning the Dyslexia Association or Dyslexia Action and getting some advice from them.

If a child is achieving 'typical' scores for comprehension, but is performing much lower in other areas ie. spelling and/or numeracy, then that is a discrepancy.

That is again showing a spiky profile typical of an ASD and also a SpLD.

It sounds like the SENCO may have used ASD/SpLD teaching approaches in Y2 that helped. That is often what is needed. It isn't about differentiating the work 'down' to a level they can access. It is about making it accessible and learnable to them by the approach and supports being used.

 

If a child were blind and everyone was trying to teach him to read books, not surprisingly he would not achieve that. If their attempts to help were just to give the child easier books, then that too will not work and will affect the childs self esteem. Use braillie and you have a totally different result. Obviously that example is very black and white. But I think you understand what I mean.

 

I have been saying I think my son has dyslexia and dyscalculia for nearly 4 years. And the EP has only recently confirmed Dyslexia, and has asked me to be patient whilst they continue to try to teach him using an approach that has not produced any progress, and each MEP they just keep lowering the target.

Edited by Sally44

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