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witsend

Self fulfilling prophecy?

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A few days ago I brought up the topic of Aspergers with my son in preparation for forthcoming meeting with consultant. Today he has been asking lots (and I mean lots) of questions about it, in fact is seems to have become his newest obsession - move over star wars! LOL. Thing is since we have been through every symptom several times complete with examples and role play ( I kid you not) he seems to have decided this is something he does have and as a result his 'aspie' behaviour has become a million times more apparent! Now at first I just thought he was acting up to his 'new role' in life but then I started wondering. I have read a couple of postings here in the past where people have said their childrens 'symptoms' have got worse since diagnosis and I thought maybe once a child is given a label of AS they actually feel like they have been given permission to be more themselves, hence the more pronounced behaviour?? Does that make sense to anyone or is it just me and the wine bottle talking?? Luv Witsend.

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I thought maybe once a child is given a label of AS they actually feel like they have been given permission to be more themselves, hence the more pronounced behaviour?? Does that make sense to anyone or is it just me and the wine bottle talking?? Luv Witsend.

Hi witsend,

 

Good thread

 

It makes sense to me as I think this is what has happened to my son.

 

Looking forward to other opinions though as I am still not sure I am right.

 

T

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Witsend, what a thought provoking subject.

 

My dd AS pre DX once asked why she was different from other people. When we got her DX the enormous relief we felt, although tinged with sadness, was a big thing for us and it must have felt even moreso for my dd. To know there was a reason for her differences, a reason that was recognised must have made her feel so much better about herself. She could now be who she was knowing it wasn't wrong, just different. Our children try so hard to conform but can't seem (in their eyes) to get it right and that must be very frightening and confusing.

 

This all reads back as a bit confusing so let me put it another way. When a gay person starts to realise he/she is gay it must be frightening to know he is different from his peers, not realy knowing what is different. As that person grows up it becomes clearer and they can start to accept it and begin to know who they are, and though it can be hard to accept, the realisation makes sense of things. This must be how our children feel when they are told of their DX.

 

As you put it so beautifully they have been given permission to be who they really are instead of what they think they should be.

 

I hope that makes sense and that I havn't offended anyone with my reference to gay people.

 

It is just one more reason why an early DX is so important, it saves the child from feeling bad about themselves.

 

Viper.

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Yes, i'm sure this happened to my daughter. Aafter years of trying to fit in, it was quite a relief to her to find an explanation for the way she was and her behaviour definitely became more noticeably autistic after diagnosis. The senco actually said she was living up to it but it certainly wasn't deliberate.

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Yes I think tihs happened to David to. The dx at 13 was a relief and it was as if he had been given a key and was at last able to be himself.

 

Carole

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This has happened with James as well, even though we've been careful not to discuss his behaviour problems in front of him. Even so, since the provisional dx of AS his behaviour has deteriorated so dramatically and has become more 'autistic' that you'd think we'd handed him a manual on how he was meant to behave. It's strange - I've literally only mentioned to him this week about his brain working differently, but this change in him has been going on for months. In fact, what so many of you are describing is the very reason I didn't want to discuss it with him early on, in case he adopted the stereotype and used it as an excuse to behave badly.

 

Mind you, I'm now starting to think that James is enjoying the attention and playing to his audience, but with the added bonus of autistic extremes. Such is life.

 

Karen

x

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even though we've been careful not to discuss his behaviour problems in front of him. Even so, since the provisional dx of AS his behaviour has deteriorated so dramatically and has become more 'autistic' that you'd think we'd handed him a manual on how he was meant to behave

Same here Karen.

 

T

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This is not suprising. When I think about Autism I do stim more. When I read stuff and learn more about myself I will act out what I have read.

 

In The Curious Incident of The Dog in The Night-Time, the Aspie character believes he can't tell a lie because of Aspergers. I know this isn't exactly true because Aspies can lie, but he believes it therefore he becomes it. It's why I've always said many problems happen because Autistics have a degree of control over themselves that they don't know they have.

 

I have always wanted the behavioural criteria for Autism changed, just to see the effect on Autistics. Tell an Autistic child that they are different because they have two brains, one is smart and the other dumb. Then you will have provided an explaination for mood cycles to them and their reaction will be to become paranormally genius followed by periods of being unintentionally funny. The material available to an Autistic about Autism will shape them.

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Guest flutter

could it be that he / they no longer hides all the things they know make them stand out . they can be wholey themselves?

I have asked a similar q of our support worker, ( daughter seems to manifest soo much now) who did point out to me that some things become more obvious as they get older?

good thread

C x

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I think before diagnosis children are just trying to fit in ,with everything,be like everyone else,so they are more withdraw and quite ,people take no notice ,see differences in passive children,so they are like everyone else.

Afterwards the person ,realised that is the reason why is different and relaxed and becames more aspergers but at the same time it helps them to undrestand and knbow what they are,and feel more confident to do things and act in life,becames more active and less passive

They still have the same difficulties in social interaction,etc but seems worse because they are more involved socially,

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Yep ... that's me to a T ... :hypno:

 

James

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WOW thats brilliant to read.

 

I had that exact same theory and i kept telling my partner but she wouldnt have it :D

My daughter kept searching for info to find out stuff relating to AS including being given books like the curious incindent from one fo her specialists .I kept saying to my other half not to over encourage her as it seems she is adopting the syndrome as apposed to having it ( not sure that makes sence :D i know what i meant :D

 

I think its a bit like people and the self diagnosing medical books isnt it ?

Whilst i admit she had the syndrome to begin with i dont think some of the info they can get hold of actually helps them. " Too much knowledge can be dangerous "

 

Am i wrong?

What do you think ?

 

 

 

:ph34r:

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the research papers so far suggest that the better the self-awareness in ASD people, the better the prognosis for their future success and fulfilment.

 

While initially children may seem to 'grow into' their autism it may be that they are beginning for the first time to explore themselves as an individual and discovering things which perhaps make them look more autistic but eventually this very self-knowledge may be exactly what helps them manage their own problems and gives them a better chance of independence.

 

I talk to Com about AS and we use it as a reference point in his life - 'yes most people will expect ...... but AS can make it difficult to ....... so you need to think about .......'. I think it really helps him now in his teens to see how he can survive until he is more able to choose his own path and knowing what is difficult for him, or easy for that matter, helps him develop his strategies.

A case in point is that we had no idea that Com could not see faces until very recently. Com had no idea that he was not seeing the same thing as everyone else and he was getting really frustrated - can you imagine being taught over and over again how to read basic emotions in pictures when they have no relevance to you whatsoever in reality? Then we told him the bad news, just a few weeks ago now, and already he has abandoned faces for other identifying features and is beginning to develop more effective strategies and can now name many more kids in school than he could last year.

 

It may be difficult to watch a child 'become more autistic' but I believe strongly that autism just is and that it is the presentation differs from person to person, with some people also having far more in the way of comorbids, like Com's prosopagnosia, to contend with than others. looking at it that way you can see that maybe they are just letting a little more of what is already there appear on the surface, the autism/AS doesn't change, nor does the child really, just what they are letting you see.

 

Also bear in mind that the period around and after diagnosis is one of great stress and change for a child and this in itself will bring more autistic behaviours to the surface.

 

Zemanski

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We haven't 'explained' yet

 

My son did ask what it mean't that he was Autistic as a member of the family had mentioned it in front of him. He asked 'Is that why I am more intelligent' So my friend who was with us said 'Yes' and it has kind of stuck, if someone mentions it, you just get 'Thats why I am so intelligent' and my vain little lad trots off with his nose in the air :lol:

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Whilst i admit she had the syndrome to begin with i dont think some of the info they can get hold of actually helps them. " Too much knowledge can be dangerous "

 

Am i wrong?

What do you think ?

 

On being told of the dx, AS kids may seem more 'autistic', but this may well be due to them not having to hide their oddness, and so having to re-establish acceptable behaviour limits. But in the long run, the amount of stress they have to live with should lessen with their new self-knowledge, giving them more control and less anxiety. This in turn should lessen the autistic behaviours.

 

This is the reasoning we used for Com so yes, I hope you are wrong :pray:

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Being an adult, potentially on the spectrum and undiagnosed, can I make the following comments?

 

Knowing (or thinking you do) where the "problem" lies is a great relief and that opens a lot of doors, yes you do lose the boundaries you spent ages building and think "sod it, I've got an excuse" (None of this is cognitive, it just happens)

 

You then crash down to reality as people you once trusted start to look at you differently and you suddenly realise that "knowing" isn't a panacea.

 

Life re-adjusts, so you are where you are, then you have to go on. Bridges are burnt, some are built, you question your sanity and eventually ( I hope ) you climb out better and stronger, I'm in between questioning and climbing.

 

Standing back I know that I need "knowledge" I need to understand why, but you could never give me a "magic pill" that will make it all better

 

From my point of view, I'm bright enough, experienced enough and old enough to handle this on my own, all I need is support (I'm not asking for that here - I get that somewhere else)

 

Tell your children the truth, let them work through the stages while you can still support them, they'll thank you eventually.

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.I kept saying to my other half not to over encourage her as it seems she is adopting the syndrome as apposed to having it ( not sure that makes sence :D i know what i meant :D

 

Whilst i admit she had the syndrome to begin with i dont think some of the info they can get hold of actually helps them. " Too much knowledge can be dangerous "

 

Am i wrong?

What do you think ?

:ph34r:

 

Hi rob -

sorry, I'm with your missus on this one... The longer somebody has to cope without diagnosis the more negative the impact on them of other peoples judgements...

Knowing 'why' you are the way you are doesn't take away those negative judgements, but it does shift the emphasis from personal, internalised 'blame' where the person with asd feels dysfunctional because of their traits, to a place where the traits are encompassed more healthily and holistically into the understanding of 'self'... Not an excuse, or a justification or a retreat, just an acceptance, and an acknowledgement that the whole is bigger than the sum of the parts and that the individual DOES have a value outside of the narrow NT confines they are usually subjected to... Who knows - maybe they find some POSITIVES in their condition as well (heaven forbid!)...

Given the overwhelming sense of relief, affirmation and liberation that could give, is it any wonder some people seem so hungry to learn more?

 

Looking back over this post, I can see that it could be taken personally... I hope you'll appreciate that is not the intent. It is something I feel strongly about, though, and I guess that DOES show through.

 

One of the hardest things about autism is that it's often an 'invisible' disability. That doesn't mean, however that it's impact is any less than a physical infirmity like cerebral palsy for example... Whether your dealing with issue like 'access' or social integration, the implications can be just as far reaching, with the emotional 'terror of (i.e.) opening a door on a room full of strangers no less intimidating than being physically unable to operate the lock. On another level, someone with cerebral palsy is unlikely to be attacked or ridiculed because of their condition in general social situations... Someone speaking the wrong 'body language' while appearing otherwise 'normal' IS...

One final thought - someone who's been forced to wear an acceptable mask for a prolonged period is - in my opinion - unlikely to want to adopt a non-acceptable one as an alterative... Chances are they'll be looking to discard ALL masks to the degree that they can comfortably manage... From an NT point of view, that might look like a step backwards. From the individuals point of view it may be the single most important step forward they ever accomplish...

 

L&P

BD :D

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-really interesting topic.

My recently diagnosed son has said he feels like a huge sigh escaped from his body (he is 8) when he was told by the Dr. that he was AS.

He has been more thoughtful, but no signs of big changes one way or another. The dx was only 5 days ago so watch this space.

I must say I agree with baddad, the emphasis does shift, my son seems lighter he is not carrying that unknown load.

He is reading books - Aspergers the Universe and Everything and Freaks Geeks and Aspergers and asking us LOTS of questions.

He seems very hungry for information about AS and we are only too pleased to comply.

I hope we are doing the right thing for him. It feels right at the moment and thats how we are taking things.

Moment by moment!

Sorry to ramble,

redberry

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My daughter kept searching for info to find out stuff relating to AS including being given books like the curious incindent from one fo her specialists .I kept saying to my other half not to over encourage her as it seems she is adopting the syndrome as apposed to having it ( not sure that makes sence :D i know what i meant :D

 

I think its a bit like people and the self diagnosing medical books isnt it ?

Whilst i admit she had the syndrome to begin with i dont think some of the info they can get hold of actually helps them. " Too much knowledge can be dangerous "

 

I'm sorry but I don't agree that it's possible to just adopt AS if you don't have it. Since my daughter's dx we have had to battle the accusation that she is "living up to her diagnosis". It has come at us from all sides, the school Senco, Camhs, and when the LEA refused a statement on the basis that she did not meet the criteria for ASD, they commented that she was a very intelligent child who had researched the condition thoroughly - tantamount to suggesting that she was making it all up - and presumably had the acting skills to dupe the experts, manipulate her parents into playing along, and keep it up indefinitely - even when alone, even when asleep?? :wacko: How can this be possible for any human being?

 

She does a lot of research too - she trawls Amazon for books related to ASD and makes some very good choices. She particularly likes reading biographies. She feels an overwhelming sense of relief that what she feels and thinks is shared by others. I think if she had not had access to all this information she would have shown the same ASD traits - she would just have been more unhappy and confused about it. As it is, she's learning from good role models, writers like Wendy Lawson, Liane Holliday Willey and Donna Williams that is is possible to have AS and live a productive and happy life.

 

 

One final thought - someone who's been forced to wear an acceptable mask for a prolonged period is - in my opinion - unlikely to want to adopt a non-acceptable one as an alterative... Chances are they'll be looking to discard ALL masks to the degree that they can comfortably manage... From an NT point of view, that might look like a step backwards. From the individuals point of view it may be the single most important step forward they ever accomplish...

 

Yes I think this is exactly what happened for L. The discarding of the masks was extremely painful for her and bewildering for us - the child we thought we'd had for 15 years wasn't really there. I can only describe it from a parent's point of view as like finding out your child was swopped at birth for someone else's. She appears to have undergone a complete personality change in the last two years. In many ways the new L seems more awkward, withdrawn and difficult to deal with than the former L. who was pretending all the time. Many friends and family would be much more comfortable with the old L. who presented a passable imitation of a typical teenager. They didn't see behind the scenes: the self harm, the sleepless nights and the anxiety that went along with that.

 

She's still got a lot of things to sort out about herself, still wavers between thinking of herself as HFA and playing it down, along with all the emotional stuff that goes with being a teenager anyway, but she's a lot more sure of who she is and I'm sure she'll ride this out eventually.

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i would probably say i agree with all above but stu has just turned 8 we have not discussed it with him he is starting to realise he is different to others in some way what is an appropriate age to bring it up so he can understand it without putting to much pressure on him . am not realy sure how he would handle things but realy not sure myself any pointers please never realy thought about so clearly before but just reading the threads it might help? why is it always a question and answer thing nothings ever clear always clouded with judgements to make or decide

?????????????????????

please help with some answers or advice or just something cheerfull

 

 

bye for now palgem

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Hi- well it seems ages ago I started this topic (it's actually just over 6 months). Looking back I can now say my son did indeed seem more 'aspie' around and just after the dx. With hindsight I can say I think this was him showing his relief at dx and also acting out some aspects of dx he was starting to learn about. In no way would I say his knowledge has ben a dangerous thing! I think it was more that some of his behavoiurs became more pronounced due to the stress of dx (for him and more so perhaps me - which he picked up on)

and me noticing certain behaviours more in the context of ASD where previously I had not understood the causes of them :blink: if that makes sense.

Six months down the line we have days when his AS is barely noticeable to the untrained eye (but I now know better!) and days when it is glaringly obvoius. I have never doubted (even on good days we have got the right dx and thank god (or whoever!) for the help it has brought with it.

So Robanddeb I did feeel a wee bit uncomfortable when I read your recent post I wondered if you had misconstrued what I said or what I meant to say? :unsure: I certainly was not doubting my sons AS, in fact I had been fighting for a long time to get the right dx so I hope that isn't how it came across :huh: I suppose it is typical of my son to obsesss about whatever his latest interest is and at that time it was AS.

I do know new dx time is a funny time with lots of mixed feelings involved which you perhaps don't fully appreciate until time has passed. I have always been honest and open with my son in just about all areas of his life (inc dx) but I do appreciate differant familys and differant circumstances may need another approach at times (I think :unsure: ).

I know all of us here are trying to do the best for our kids anyway.

Luv Witsend.

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Hi to all :)

 

I personnaly don't think any child could become AS or ASD just by becoming what they read but yes they would feel releived and allow themself to "exist" :rolleyes: as aspie or ASD the fact that what our children read becomes the only truth may be the side which we should be warry :wacko: about as it may reinforce some aspect which were not as strong before.

 

The other point is that children with ASD /AS as far as I can see with H who is definitly getting more autistic every day is that their ASD behaviour seems to show more as they grow older wether they express it more or it becomes more apparent because the differences with their peers becomes more obvious I don't know may be a bit of both, as all the children seems to become more assertive as they grow older I think H B) is doing the same but his assertiveness tend to let go his ASD personnality in a much stonger way...and today was just ...a very difficult day... :tearful:

 

Malika.

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Wow this has just happened with my ds too and tbh :oops: I was being to think he was just really smart and pretending to have it because it's got so bad lately and he didn't used to be.

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Well put CarerQuie,

 

I would agree 100% once I myself understood why I was different in the things I did and said, I felt so much relife in myself to actually be me.

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

 

I think the boy means well but he is distinctly inclined to be inattentive......

Tutor of Winston Churchill to Lord Randolph Churchill,

Winston's father

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So Robanddeb I did feeel a wee bit uncomfortable when I read your recent post I wondered if you had misconstrued what I said or what I meant to say? :unsure: I certainly was not doubting my sons AS, in fact Luv Witsend.

 

Apologies i didnt mean to come across that way at all. I probably didnt explain myself at all and didnt think out my answer very well.

 

What i was trying to say ( Ill probably still get it wrong :lol: ) Was while i think its a good thing that my Daughter can find out information to help her better understand. I had noticed her picking up traits of things that she didnt have beforehand , if that makes sense !? Although she was fully aware she had AS it just seemed to me she had found the answer she been looking for (which is good ) but had also started to develop other traits that were in the book that she hadnt had prior to reading it ! This concerned me a bit as to whether i was doing the right thing or not by allowing her to read this information ! Wasnt sure id done the right thing.

 

I hope i explained that better that time !?

 

Apologies again !

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Guest hallyscomet

Hi Witsend >:D<<'>

 

You have hit the nail on the head, this is exactly how my son felt, finally safe to be who he was.

 

One of the hardest things about autism is that it's often an 'invisible' disability. That doesn't mean, however that it's impact is any less than a physical infirmity like cerebral palsy for example... Whether your dealing with issue like 'access' or social integration, the implications can be just as far reaching, with the emotional 'terror of (i.e.) opening a door on a room full of strangers no less intimidating than being physically unable to operate the lock. On another level, someone with cerebral palsy is unlikely to be attacked or ridiculed because of their condition in general social situations... Someone speaking the wrong 'body language' while appearing otherwise 'normal' IS...

One final thought - someone who's been forced to wear an acceptable mask for a prolonged period is - in my opinion - unlikely to want to adopt a non-acceptable one as an alterative... Chances are they'll be looking to discard ALL masks to the degree that they can comfortably manage... From an NT point of view, that might look like a step backwards. From the individuals point of view it may be the single most important step forward they ever accomplish...

 

My son trying to fit into mainstream was a classic example in the end that caused a blow up for my son, he said flatly nobody seems to understand how difficult it is for me to do the things that eveyone takes for granted.

 

Just on the weekend we were sitting around discussing my sons condition and college and in the company of my partner, my sons best mate and his mother, they were all saying come on B. when are you going to come back to college and finish I>T> you are more than capable, N's mum said just looking after your diet and walking can help and get rid aof a lot of the difficulties you are having, To a point I agree with this, but then I went away and thought about it and realised they just dont understand all the facts or have had to sit and listen to B when he is crying and having a meltdown saying how hard it is to just be normal. Upon reflection it brought a few tears to my eyes as I feel they think I am not pushing him enough, and saying to B. if you don't get your act together B. you will just end up a bum Quote words from his best mate :o

So in the end I went over everything with my partner why what they were saying wasn't as easy as they said. In the end I suggested he read Tony Attwoods book on Autism and Aspergers then we will have this discussion. I tried to also explain my son goes through peaks and troughs and I have to let him lead the way and I am learning from other parents to take a step back and let him lead the way.

 

But getting back to you Witsend >:D<<'> my son felt like he was under all this pressure to be NT now we are learning to be comfortable with his ASD and how that feels for him, and for the first time he is breathing out, I know he will find his path when he is ready. :wub:

 

Regards

Hailey

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Have you seen how many Honda's there are around just lately? There are flipping loads of them. It's quite eerrie.

 

 

 

Apparently this is due to the 5% increase in the numbers being bought in this country for sale in second-hand 'grey' import market from Japan where they have laws governing how old a car can be when owned in a certain zone around cities. The aim is to try and keep the atmosphere free from smog. Therefore in city centres cars maybe no older than a year. The next ring out 2 yrs then 3 and four or more in smaller towns or, more often sold to be shipped and sold here where the resale value is higher. As Honda is a very popular make in Japan (they hold some 18-20% of the market in new car sales - a rise of about .76% is expected this year) it is logical that the number being sold here will increase roughly in line with sales there some 3-4 yrs later.

 

Now I thought this was rubbish when a friend explained it to me but I was wrong. The next week or so I spotted hundreds of them, they were everywhere. If you don't believe me watch what happens next time your driving around.

 

 

 

Interesting stuff.

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Sorry, Phas, but if this is an obscure analogy for why ASD traits increase (importing second-hand traits from Japan? :wacko: ) I'm afraid it went right over my head.

Yes, once you know what to look for it's easier to see the traits, but it seems too obvious and pronounced in so many recently-diagnosed folk just to be the carers' perception.

 

Or should this have been posted on Off Topic?

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Hi - Robanddeb - no need to apologise at all - I think we're probably saying similar things albeit confusingly? :blink:

Hi Hailey >:D<<'> to you too, whatever your rels are saying I'm sure you are doing right by you're son as you know him best.

Phasmid - :blink::unsure::wacko::rolleyes::D !!!! My dads got a Honda.

Luv Witsend.

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