The utter inability of schools to support autistic people

[Robert Hickman]

Looking back on my own childhood, it has become obvious to me how schools, of any description, are utterly incapable of supporting even those with mild autism. During my school years, I was melting down violently at least every few days, sometimes even multiple times in the same day. But in the 5 years since leaving school, I have not experienced any meltdowns at all.

 

The forceful nature of schools are detrimental to people on the spectrum. Most of my own meltdowns were caused by being forced to write by hand (something I cannot physically do), and the forceful intermixing of many utterly unrated subjects. I, like most autistics learn best when I am able to focus on one thing at a time, and that one thing is something I am passionately interested in.

 

So if your autistic child is frequently melting down in school, or if you frequently melt down in school yourself. The very design of the school system could very well be the root of the problem.

[KezT]

Looking back on my own childhood, it has become obvious to me how schools, of any description, are utterly incapable of supporting even those with mild autism. During my school years, I was melting down violently at least every few days, sometimes even multiple times in the same day. But in the 5 years since leaving school, I have not experienced any meltdowns at all.

 

The forceful nature of schools are detrimental to people on the spectrum. Most of my own meltdowns were caused by being forced to write by hand (something I cannot physically do), and the forceful intermixing of many utterly unrated subjects. I, like most autistics learn best when I am able to focus on one thing at a time, and that one thing is something I am passionately interested in.

 

So if your autistic child is frequently melting down in school, or if you frequently melt down in school yourself. The very design of the school system could very well be the root of the problem.

 

I have to disagree - my sons school hasbeen incredibly supportive, both before and after dx, and have helped him from being the new boy who hid under a desk all day, through regular (sometimes violent) meltdowns, past his refusal to participte in classwork to become a child who sits within, and participates in most class work, works with others in his class and has even taken enough exams to be recognised as "gifted".

 

They have offered consistant and constant support, at the level he requires, despite that level constantly changing. They have worked with ourselves, and every other professional we have thrown at them, or they have been able to source. They have implemented technique after techniqe, process and procedures. Every teacher in the school as recognised that he has an ASD and therefore needs different management to other children, a number of teachers have attended specific training, and have then "trickled" that training down to all staff at the shool (including support staff).

 

My son goes to a standard LEA state primary school - in what is not the most sulubrious area

[Lynden]

Another one to disagree here - it may just be that your particular school didn't suit you. My sons school is absolutely fantastic, I really can't fault them in how they deal with him at all. He is in an SLD/PMLD school though probably 60% of the children there are on the spectrum. They are completely tuned in to how to support their ASD pupils.

 

Lynne

[sesley]

thanks thats a very useful insight. my 11 year old last blew,when he could not finish what he was currently doing and they wanted him to stop and start someting else. Mine also blows at homework,because he gets anxious about the next step of thinking on how to use the spelling words he as had to practice writing.In fact he has had a history right through school of blowing when they ask him to do things,like changing what he is doing for something else.We had a awful teacher one year,who gave us a insight at parents evening as all negative and centring on his difficulites and explosions without fully understanding why he reacted the way he did. Its been a up hill battle for us to get him not to hurt anyone when he blows, he has been known to throw furniture about and hit and kick the teachers now at 11 he so far just explodes with hopefully no more violent reactions .

[baddad]

I think saying a school is at fault for aggressive meltdowns for not allowing autistic children to pursue their own interests is a pretty narrow perspective on the education system. Sure, there would be far more less 'meltdowns' if autistic children were unchallenged by such demands as a broad educational curriculum providing lifeskills that would enable them to live fulfilled lives and a degree of independence, and I've even go so far as to acknowledge that many parents would be quite happy to go along with an educational system that accommodated their children in an idealised but totally artificial world that would ultimately entrap and disable them...

 

Which is not to say, of course, that the education system couldn't do much much more to make school a better experience for autistic pupils (or any other pupil for that matter) but the best people to dictate educational policy are not school children (autistic or otherwise), or parents who are niaive enough to believe that allowing their children to dictate educational policy on their own terms would lead to an improved education system. If children were capable of making such complex decisions they wouldn't need to be in school in the first place. If children were less supported and encouraged in believing they were capable of making such complex decisions and schools were supported rather than continually challenged in delivering what children need (as opposed to what children, childishly, want)then there would probably be far less problems in the education system.

 

L&P

 

BD

[sesley]

i don't blame the school for his meltdowns,because he is so unpredictable at times he knows he is responsible and its him learning how to control his rages and learning how to restrain himself from physically hurting another human being while he rages. Its a uphill battle that is slowly being won by us. after he calms down he is very remorseful about his actions and i get him as best he can to descirbe how he got to that point by going through what was happening at that point. then we talk about how he must not hurt anyone and when he feels anxious and can't say, he knows in assembly to tap his support teacher he has had enough and has to leave. he also gets penaltys the withdrawal of favourite things for a while,and then to get them back he has to be good all day the next day and more days if necessary so that he understands the implications of his actions.it does work, he trys his best then gets his stuff back and knows it can be gone if he misbehaves.you have to establish who is boss and the rules they have to understand and follow

[Robert Hickman]

Thanks for the replys.

 

If you child is enjoying school, and the school is able to adapt sufficiently to there needs, great. However I attended as many as 5 or 6 different schools, and to tell the troth, they were all as bad as each other.

 

While I don't doubt that the schools are doing everything in there power to help, my question lies more in whether this help actually does help. I too had full time support for my autism and writing difficulties. But in reality this help actually did not help, it mainly just became a crutch for me to lean on, why bother improving myself when I may just offload the problem onto someone else? It drove me inside, adding to my fear of doing anything or going anywhere alone.

 

Look at the root cause of the meltdowns, it's probably something really simple which builds over time. In my case this was my being forced to write by hand, and the resulting agony that comes from preforming that action. After getting out of school I learned to write with a computer, solving the main root problem. Later making the conscious decision to go support free, removing the crutch and forcing myself to improve my spelling problem. Its still not perfect, but at least I can write on my own now.

[Sally44]

I think that if some children are able to cope and learn and make progress within a supportive school that really does try, and manages to meet the child's needs, then that is great.

 

But neurologically there is a difference and that difference is on a spectrum. Square pegs into round holes etc. I just think there needs to be more schooling options, and then everyone could have their child placed in a school that was more able to meet their needs.

 

I don't think that different schools, different teaching approaces etc are catering to the child's whims. For some children they simply are not capable of tuning into certain teaching styles, or certain subjects and on top of that there are too many things within mainstream that they just cannot cope with, so the child is never in a calm state to learn regardless of the teaching style. That is why some Statements say that the curriculum must be differentiated by teaching the curriculum through the child's areas of interest. It isn't about allowing a child to become even more self centred and/or selfish. It is acknowledging that that is the level they are currently functioning at, and through their interests, other social skills can be taught now or at a later date.

 

What I think is most important is keeping the child motivated to learn. I think it needs to be looked at for each individual child.

[baddad]

But neurologically there is a difference and that difference is on a spectrum. Square pegs into round holes etc. I just think there needs to be more schooling options, and then everyone could have their child placed in a school that was more able to meet their needs.

 

I don't think that different schools, different teaching approaces etc are catering to the child's whims. For some children they simply are not capable of tuning into certain teaching styles, or certain subjects and on top of that there are too many things within mainstream that they just cannot cope with, so the child is never in a calm state to learn regardless of the teaching style. That is why some Statements say that the curriculum must be differentiated by teaching the curriculum through the child's areas of interest. It isn't about allowing a child to become even more self centred and/or selfish. It is acknowledging that that is the level they are currently functioning at, and through their interests, other social skills can be taught now or at a later date.

 

What I think is most important is keeping the child motivated to learn. I think it needs to be looked at for each individual child.

 

Hi Sally - I do agree with you about 'square pegs round holes', and certainly differentiation/adaptations to help a child achieve are hugely important, positive and beneficial... But there is also another, far wider issue to consider - children should not be enabled to not achieve by trying to provide an education system that meets with the approval of a six/seven/eight year old, or the approval of parents who are looking for a sytem that meets their six/seven/eight year olds approval. If children were capable of making informed, reasoned and 'sensible' decisions about their education they wouldn't be children. Adults who refuse to accept that their children aren't capable of making decisions like that and fight tooth and claw to make sure their children's whims are accommodated - whatever the cost to the school, or to the other children in the school - can do a huge amount of harm, both to their own children and to the wider school community. That doesn't apply just to autistic children, or disabled children or SEN but to the whole educational system, where in all but a small minority of cases behavioural management/discipline/respect issues are on the increase, with the attitudes fermenting those issues brought in from home, lnfluenced by parents who are completely unwilling or uninterested or just too selfish/feckless to look beyond their own child's demands to see the bigger picture.

 

Obviously I don't know anything about the OP's situation, but I can think of another extremely good reason why meltdowns might stop after a child leaves school and it has very little to do with the education system whatsoever. It's the sudden realisation that behaviours which have previously been accommodated will no longer be accommodated, and that the cotton-wool wrapping of an artificially adapted home environment is actually an insidious and dangerous trap that is going to severely compromise the lifestyle of anyone who actually wants to engage with the real world. The saddest thing is, IMO, that when young adults do come to that realisation and break free from the trappings of their artificial environment it is usually interpreted by those who have provided the 'A.E' that their 'instincts' had been right all along. Personally, when I look back on such situations I just get angry, 'cos all I can see is a grubby looking towpath littered with lost opportunities...

 

L&P

 

BD

[lindy2017]

Looking back on my own childhood, it has become obvious to me how schools, of any description, are utterly incapable of supporting even those with mild autism. During my school years, I was melting down violently at least every few days, sometimes even multiple times in the same day. But in the 5 years since leaving school, I have not experienced any meltdowns at all.

 

The forceful nature of schools are detrimental to people on the spectrum. Most of my own meltdowns were caused by being forced to write by hand (something I cannot physically do), and the forceful intermixing of many utterly unrated subjects. I, like most autistics learn best when I am able to focus on one thing at a time, and that one thing is something I am passionately interested in.

 

So if your autistic child is frequently melting down in school, or if you frequently melt down in school yourself. The very design of the school system could very well be the root of the problem.

Hi, I totally agree with you on this.... my 12 year old son has home tutor atmoment and his meltdowns are fewer than when he attended school......my eldest son[32] said school was the worst times of his life .......my 4 children are on the spectrum youngest being dx with CAMHS,,,,,......lindy

[coolblue]

Hi Sally - I do agree with you about 'square pegs round holes', and certainly differentiation/adaptations to help a child achieve are hugely important, positive and beneficial... But there is also another, far wider issue to consider - children should not be enabled to not achieve by trying to provide an education system that meets with the approval of a six/seven/eight year old, or the approval of parents who are looking for a sytem that meets their six/seven/eight year olds approval.

 

'Approval' is one issue. Parents also have a legal obligation to cause their child to have an education suitable to age, ability, aptitude and any special educational needs. If a school doesn't provide this, and the parent doesn't take action, technically the parent is in breach of the law.

 

 

If children were capable of making informed, reasoned and 'sensible' decisions about their education they wouldn't be children. Adults who refuse to accept that their children aren't capable of making decisions like that and fight tooth and claw to make sure their children's whims are accommodated - whatever the cost to the school, or to the other children in the school - can do a huge amount of harm, both to their own children and to the wider school community. That doesn't apply just to autistic children, or disabled children or SEN but to the whole educational system, where in all but a small minority of cases behavioural management/discipline/respect issues are on the increase, with the attitudes fermenting those issues brought in from home, lnfluenced by parents who are completely unwilling or uninterested or just too selfish/feckless to look beyond their own child's demands to see the bigger picture.

 

Indeed, but how do you discriminate between a parent who is fighting tooth and claw for their child's special educational needs to be met, (in a system that has been described by a Commons Select Committee as 'not fit for purpose') and one who wants their child's 'whims' accommodated?

 

Obviously I don't know anything about the OP's situation, but I can think of another extremely good reason why meltdowns might stop after a child leaves school and it has very little to do with the education system whatsoever. It's the sudden realisation that behaviours which have previously been accommodated will no longer be accommodated, and that the cotton-wool wrapping of an artificially adapted home environment is actually an insidious and dangerous trap that is going to severely compromise the lifestyle of anyone who actually wants to engage with the real world. The saddest thing is, IMO, that when young adults do come to that realisation and break free from the trappings of their artificial environment it is usually interpreted by those who have provided the 'A.E' that their 'instincts' had been right all along. Personally, when I look back on such situations I just get angry, 'cos all I can see is a grubby looking towpath littered with lost opportunities...

 

L&P

 

BD

 

I've worked for thirty years outside the education system. I have had teachers lecture me on what the 'real world' is like and how my son needs to be prepared for it and how only school can do this. This from teachers who have never had any work experience other than teaching. But they are convinced that schools are like the 'real world'. Not in my experience they are not. No workplace I have ever been in has resembled school in the slightest. I've had some choice over where I've worked, I've signed a contract that specifies what my duties are in exchange for remuneration and if I haven't liked the job I have got a different one. In general, managers have negotiated rather than ordered people about, and colleagues have collaborated rather than competed. Some workplaces have been like an extended family and I have the lasting friendships to prove it.

 

I am sure that there are children who are wrapped in cotton-wool at home and who find the real world a big shock. On the other hand, there are parents who have succeeded in teaching their children skills that schools have failed to pass on, and children who have developed social and life skills at their own pace in a managed environment, rather than to a timetable devised by someone who has never met them. I don't feel that what the OP said is true of all schools, but it's true of many. It's not by accident that coalition government is giving the SEN support system a massive overhaul, nor is it simply to pander to the whims of a few molly-coddled six year olds.

 

cb

[bid]

Looking back on my own childhood, it has become obvious to me how schools, of any description, are utterly incapable of supporting even those with mild autism. During my school years, I was melting down violently at least every few days, sometimes even multiple times in the same day. But in the 5 years since leaving school, I have not experienced any meltdowns at all.

 

The forceful nature of schools are detrimental to people on the spectrum. Most of my own meltdowns were caused by being forced to write by hand (something I cannot physically do), and the forceful intermixing of many utterly unrated subjects. I, like most autistics learn best when I am able to focus on one thing at a time, and that one thing is something I am passionately interested in.

 

So if your autistic child is frequently melting down in school, or if you frequently melt down in school yourself. The very design of the school system could very well be the root of the problem.

 

I have just read your link, and I'm unclear what kind of school/s you attended.

 

I can only speak from our personal experience. It is very true that mainstream secondary school caused my son to have a breakdown. He came out of school for 6 months, with some home tutoring by the LA.

 

However, he then went to an inspirational residential special school for AS/HFA. Once there he made fantastic progress, and has gone on to lead a full, productive and independent adult life.

 

Both myself and my DH work in special schools, and have seen children come to us from mainstream who have then blossomed in a specialist placement.

 

So, while I agree that some schools (largely mainstream I fear) are not able to support autistic people, I don't agree with the sweeping generalisation in your OP and your linked article.

 

Bid

Edited April 26, 2011 by bid

[baddad]

'Approval' is one issue. Parents also have a legal obligation to cause their child to have an education suitable to age, ability, aptitude and any special educational needs. If a school doesn't provide this, and the parent doesn't take action, technically the parent is in breach of the law.

And parent's legal obligations are another issue. Who makes the decision that a school isn't providing an education suitable to age, ability, aptitude and any SEN? The child? Mum? Ofsted? Or maybe with SEN the entire team of Ed Psych/S&LT's/Paediatricians/Outreach etc appraising the provision from a POV that isn't as emotionally charged and potentially self-centred as that of the child/parent or as target driven/result orientated as that of Ofsted? Of course, those people might have other considerations too and they could be self-centred or target driven, but don't let's make silly assumptions like 'Mum's know their children best' the basis of educational provision or - especially with SEN (and more specifically autism) - it'd probably be fully equipped schools and two members of staff for every child in the country...

 

Indeed, but how do you discriminate between a parent who is fighting tooth and claw for their child's special educational needs to be met, (in a system that has been described by a Commons Select Committee as 'not fit for purpose') and one who wants their child's 'whims' accommodated?

 

I don't know, do you? But I think a starting point would be acknowledging that some parent's do want (I'd go further and say 'expect') their child's every whim accommodated and don't give a flying fig for either the teaching staff or other pupils who have to try and circumnavigate those parents and/or the often violent, disruptive, arrogant, selfish progeny of such parents. But the mere suggestion, despite all the evidence, leads to a flurry of raised skirts and voices as Mums who claim not to indulge their children in such ways somehow manage to identify and take personal insult( )(and again, even more so if the child happens to have a diagnosis of anything, but particularly an 'ASD' or ADHD or the increasingly popular and coming-to-a-clinic-near-you-soon 'PDA') that ensures any reasonable discussion of the subject becomes impossible.

 

I've worked for thirty years outside the education system. I have had teachers lecture me on what the 'real world' is like and how my son needs to be prepared for it and how only school can do this. This from teachers who have never had any work experience other than teaching. But they are convinced that schools are like the 'real world'. Not in my experience they are not. No workplace I have ever been in has resembled school in the slightest. I've had some choice over where I've worked, I've signed a contract that specifies what my duties are in exchange for remuneration and if I haven't liked the job I have got a different one. In general, managers have negotiated rather than ordered people about, and colleagues have collaborated rather than competed. Some workplaces have been like an extended family and I have the lasting friendships to prove it.

 

No, I would agree that school isn't always like the real world... but neither school nor workplace bears much resemblance to the artificial worlds many parents seem determined to create for their own children. You are quite lucky if you've always had options like 'some choice' and simply changing jobs, and if you've only experienced work situations with helpful, collaborative, non-competitive colleagues and managers who negotiate rather than make demands. That's not necessarily the same situation for school-leavers in 2011, though, especially those who have left with no qualifications, have bad attendance records, a history of behavioural issues / violence and who have only been able to 'cope' (and perhaps only then with limited success) in the kind of artificial worlds mentioned above. Don't get me wrong - I'm not 'judging' those children: for some it may be an absolutely accurate representation of their needs and abilities, and they should be supported and helped accordingly. For others, though, especially those who suddenly 'blossom' when the realities of the world do become clear to them, you have to ask where that hidden well of resourcefulness sprang from, and perhaps how much earlier it could have been tapped into if only there had been a little digging, rather than lowered expectations arising from influences that stopped that digging process in its tracks.

 

 

I am sure that there are children who are wrapped in cotton-wool at home and who find the real world a big shock. On the other hand, there are parents who have succeeded in teaching their children skills that schools have failed to pass on, and children who have developed social and life skills at their own pace in a managed environment, rather than to a timetable devised by someone who has never met them. I don't feel that what the OP said is true of all schools, but it's true of many. It's not by accident that coalition government is giving the SEN support system a massive overhaul, nor is it simply to pander to the whims of a few molly-coddled six year olds

.

 

I'll put my hands up and say I'm a parent who's succeeded in teaching skills that schools have failed to pass on... but that's because my son needed MORE help in some things than the school could practically, realistically or reasonably offer and I've worked with them to help plug the gaps. It hasn't happened because I've lowered my expectations of him and tried to force the school to do the same, or by accepting and accommodating as 'disability (autism) related' behaviours that limited his potential and could be overcome.

As for coalition governmnent's 'massive overhaul of the not fit for purpose SEN system' I'd be wary of counting chicken's... I suspect it will not be what you're hoping for... Again, of course, don't think I'm defending a broken system, because I'm not. Of course the system is broken and of course children - SEN and NT - are suffering as a consequence... But fixing that means being honest about the problems that exist in schools, and unrealistic expectations of parents and pupils alike are part of that, as are the attitudes of the children who walk daily through the school gates (or not, as the case may be) and challenge the system on every level, and the parent's who justify, defend, ignore or perhaps even actively encourage those attitudes. It doesn't matter how many books or how much cutting edge equipment we pour into our schools if they only seen as missiles for firing at teaching staff or other kids, and it's not going to help the situation any to mistake every child throwing the equipment as a 'victim' or the children/teaching staff on the receiving end as the 'bullies' causing all of the problems...

 

L&P

 

BD

[coolblue]

 

As for coalition governmnent's 'massive overhaul of the not fit for purpose SEN system' I'd be wary of counting chicken's... I suspect it will not be what you're hoping for...

 

I don't know why you're assuming I'm hoping for anything, or even expecting anything. I was just pointing out that it's not just indulgent parents with flouncy skirts who think there's something wrong with the system.

 

 

Again, of course, don't think I'm defending a broken system, because I'm not. Of course the system is broken and of course children - SEN and NT - are suffering as a consequence... But fixing that means being honest about the problems that exist in schools, and unrealistic expectations of parents and pupils alike are part of that, as are the attitudes of the children who walk daily through the school gates (or not, as the case may be) and challenge the system on every level, and the parent's who justify, defend, ignore or perhaps even actively encourage those attitudes. It doesn't matter how many books or how much cutting edge equipment we pour into our schools if they only seen as missiles for firing at teaching staff or other kids, and it's not going to help the situation any to mistake every child throwing the equipment as a 'victim' or the children/teaching staff on the receiving end as the 'bullies' causing all of the problems...

 

I think the OP made a sweeping generalisation about schools not supporting autistic people, but I think his central point was valid; that it's a problem with the way the system is designed. It's not just that the system is broken - it's that it wasn't fit for purpose in the first place. You can't have an education system that purports to be able to teach every child and then doesn't train its staff to do so, or has identical expectations of all pupils when each child is different, etc etc.

 

 

cb

[baddad]

I don't know why you're assuming I'm hoping for anything, or even expecting anything. I was just pointing out that it's not just indulgent parents with flouncy skirts who think there's something wrong with the system.

 

No. It's pretty much everyone, I hope

 

 

I think the OP made a sweeping generalisation about schools not supporting autistic people, but I think his central point was valid; that it's a problem with the way the system is designed. It's not just that the system is broken - it's that it wasn't fit for purpose in the first place. You can't have an education system that purports to be able to teach every child and then doesn't train its staff to do so, or has identical expectations of all pupils when each child is different, etc etc.

 

Perfectly valid point (up to a point), as I hope, you'll agree, are the ones I made, with full recognition that any number of wrongs don't make a right. I just think to right the wrongs you have to look at all the angles, not just the ones that lay the blame at everybody else's door or that one finds palatable.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited April 26, 2011 by baddad

[Sally44]

I don't know how typical my own case is. But my experience is that it is about mainstream schools being unable to freely say "we cannot meet the needs of this child mainstream" - because of inclusion policy.

 

And whatever anyones view of "parents", in my case the LEA lied and cheated and acted illegally. So please don't assume that the school and LEA and related services are all above board and following procedure and acting legally and in the best interests of the child. They don't give a flying xxxx about the child - it is all about funding.

 

My LEA have lied and withheld their own professionals findings and recommendations from myself, the Tribunal, my MP, and the LGO. And they did that deliberately. After my current Tribunal is over the LGO wants to see the emails I have from the inclusion officer to other inclusion officers, the Head of Commissioning at my LEA, the Head of EP and SpLD services, the EP and senior EP and the Autism Advisory Teacher. In this email the inclusion officer says that they don't need to worry about how they will provide the provision specified in the Statement because he has worded it so that they never have to provide it.

 

If LEAs are dealing with children's SEN in this manner - and if this is not an isolated case - then I can see how many parents will find themselves with children placed mainstream without the provision or support for their children to cope or make progress in that environment.

[sesley]

its our experience with our 11 year old ASD son,is that the best possible support for anyone with autism is support at home in the education system and other walks of life. The input is the key to success,and it takes everyone singing the same song from the same music sheet,meaning everyone working together to give the child consisitancy at home in school.It can be very difficult if both sides do not listen to each other . Its a lottery as well depending on the type of people involved,are the parents supportive to the child and is the teaching system also using specific skills to support for learning?The next improtant part for us has been to give him lots of oppertunites to take part with support in social events etc encouraging independant skills,like dresssing himself and suppervised choice on the route home to school,bascially treating very much the same as you would any other child you are nuturing,but with extra support and getting him to understand rules and who is the boss,like teachers and parents.We have a lovely boy wanting to be social and wanting to learn,with his autistic challenges,but ones with stategys and ways to support him.

[baddad]

 

So please don't assume that the school and LEA and related services are all above board and following procedure and acting legally and in the best interests of the child.

 

Hi Sally -

 

Do you feel you've seen anyone making such assumptions? And however flawed or manipulating the 'system' might be, does that negate completely the potential for parents, or the children themselves, to be equally flawed in their thinking, or manipulative and self-serving and determined in getting their own agenda on the table? As I said earlier, any number of wrongs don't make a 'right'. I think you have to look at the whole picture, and from every angle, and be honest about what you see.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited April 27, 2011 by baddad

[Kathryn]

We all have our views of the system which are coloured by our own personal experiences, so this is a difficult debate to have because there is no wrong or right answer. BD, I think you do start from the default position that schools and teachers are doing the right thing by children with ASD - (and let's keep to ASD as that was the subject of the OP)and are reasonable. Which is fair enough as that's been your experience. I think unless you've had avenues of help repeatedly blocked, unless you've had a child struggling on for years and years with signs of difficulty being missed, unless you've had one or two or even three appeals thrown in and a few lies for good measure, unless you know that- barring miracles- your child is always going to be in the wrong school environment, you can't understand the utter despair and frustration which may lead parents to become more strident in asking for help - and often the help they are asking for is no more or less than the system is legally obliged to provide.

 

But I think a starting point would be acknowledging that some parent's do want (I'd go further and say 'expect') their child's every whim accommodated and don't give a flying fig for either the teaching staff or other pupils who have to try and circumnavigate those parents and/or the often violent, disruptive, arrogant, selfish progeny of such parents. But the mere suggestion, despite all the evidence, leads to a flurry of raised skirts and voices as Mums who claim not to indulge their children in such ways somehow manage to identify and take personal insult

 

Sure there are parents like this out there - (and incidentally not all of them are in skirts, many of the most stubborn and demanding parents who take a stance and refuse to negotiate or become obnoxious to the point of being banned from the playground are in fact men). Let me paint you another picture of a parent who I think is more typical of those who negotiate the SEN system: a parent who is too worn down, too bewildered or too unknowing to do more than just cope, let alone try and impose their will on the school. Such parents may be able to summon up the courage and energy to approach the school but they do it with diffidence and remain quietly apologetic about having to ask for support for their child. They don't know what to ask for or what's possible because they havent got the information they need. If they become manipulative, it's often because they have learned to be because that is the way they've been treated themselves - I doubt whether most parents have the energy to initiate such mind games.

 

Going back to Robert's OP - at a gut level I'm inclined to agree with you. My daughter had the ability to leave school with the full complement of GCSE's and A levels. She had no behaviour problems, was never aggressive or disruptive and was really motivated to learn and work. Yet she left school with no qualifications and a severe breakdown and I have to say, very little value added in terms of intellectual development, beyond Key stage 1. Call me idealistic but I sent a child to school at 5 hoping she would be happy and reach her potential. I had no reason to think otherwise - she was desperate to start school. Something has to be wrong with the system if a school cannot help a child learn who wants to learn. Something has to be wrong with the system where the only way for some children to learn is to be sent away from home, where there is no educational need to be.

 

Going with my head and not my guts - there are obviously schools and teachers which do support children well with ASD, as others have posted. How far they would be supportive if the parents weren't nudging them in the right direction, who knows? One thing is for sure, cuts to LA budgets are going to make life a lot tougher for even the schools which are doing OK.

 

K x

[GaryS]

[baddad]

BD, I think you do start from the default position that schools and teachers are doing the right thing by children with ASD - (and let's keep to ASD as that was the subject of the OP)and are reasonable. Which is fair enough as that's been your experience.

 

No, I don't start with any 'default' position, and that hasn't been my experience either. I've mentioned several times on forum that the first couple of years in the infants were very difficult for Ben, and I spent years getting his statement to reflect his needs with the LEA... And I know other parents whose children attended the same school who were less happy with the school's efforts on behalf of those children. Getting it 'right' meant working with the school rather than fighting against them, and an underlying mutual respect. If anything has 'coloured' my views it is my observations of other parents who would not compromise, hadn't even the notion of 'mutual respect' in their dealings with the school and had totally unrealistic and unreasonable expectations of them. Exactly the same thing applies to my son's secondary education in a highly regarded specialist school, and the attitudes of those parents (reflected in and informing the behaviours of their children) who criticise the efforts made on their children's behalf there.

 

Let's leave the 'bad' schools aside for the moment... What of those schools that have a fantastic reputation and the children who 'fail' within them. Do the parents of those children accept any part in that failure, or acknowledge any flaw in the attitudes their children take in each morning? Of course not! It is still the system to blame, still the teaching methods, still pretty much anything you can think of except the attitude of the child or influences from the home environment. Funny thing is, whenever I watch any documentary about problems in schools it is, almost invariably, the wider experiences of 'difficult' pupils (rather than experiences in school) that are most influential, and there is no logical argument to suggest that children with SEN's are somehow exempt from those wider experiences. In fact, all research into disability suggests that the problems outside of school are likely to be more profound.

 

Sure there are parents like this out there - (and incidentally not all of them are in skirts, many of the most stubborn and demanding parents who take a stance and refuse to negotiate or become obnoxious to the point of being banned from the playground are in fact men).

 

Really? I wouldn't know. My own experience of most playground 'showdowns' has been mums, and certainly with regard to SEN I think many dads are completely 'locked out' from having any sort of input other than having to back up mum in whatever she's decided. You haven't got to look far around the forum to see the general consensus regarding dad's and disabled kids: 'He's in denial/he doesn't understand/he hasn't got a clue/he causes the problems rather then helping with them' etc etc etc.

 

Let me paint you another picture of a parent who I think is more typical of those who negotiate the SEN system: a parent who is too worn down, too bewildered or too unknowing to do more than just cope, let alone try and impose their will on the school. Such parents may be able to summon up the courage and energy to approach the school but they do it with diffidence and remain quietly apologetic about having to ask for support for their child. They don't know what to ask for or what's possible because they havent got the information they need. If they become manipulative, it's often because they have learned to be because that is the way they've been treated themselves - I doubt whether most parents have the energy to initiate such mind games.

 

So if the parents are so worn down, so feckless, so diffident, so quietly apologetic, so uninformed etc, how can they possibly know what's best for their child? Actually, I do agree that there are many parents in that position (the question I've placed at the end of that is actually a challenge to the logic of 'parents know best' - not a criticism or judgement on parents who need support), and i think services should be there to help them and their children. But they're not the parents (or children) we're talking about, we're talking about the ones who feel so empowered and so certain of their own instincts that they feel completely comfortable to dictate exactly how the school should respond to their child, giving him/her precedence over every other child in the school and regardless of any input from the specialist teams generally considered as the most qualified in informing school policy in such cases.

 

Going back to Robert's OP - at a gut level I'm inclined to agree with you. My daughter had the ability to leave school with the full complement of GCSE's and A levels. She had no behaviour problems, was never aggressive or disruptive and was really motivated to learn and work. Yet she left school with no qualifications and a severe breakdown and I have to say, very little value added in terms of intellectual development, beyond Key stage 1. Call me idealistic but I sent a child to school at 5 hoping she would be happy and reach her potential. I had no reason to think otherwise - she was desperate to start school. Something has to be wrong with the system if a school cannot help a child learn who wants to learn. Something has to be wrong with the system where the only way for some children to learn is to be sent away from home, where there is no educational need to be.

 

I'm certainly not going to comment on your individual situation, because I don't know enough about it - either from a home or school perspective. I do agree, though, that there has to be something wrong with a system where the only way for some children to learn is to be sent away from home where there is no educational need for them to be. It makes perfect sense if there's a lack of appropriate local provision (often a reality as more SEN schools close), but in cases where there are local schools that should be able to fill the child's educational needs you've got to wonder about the wider dynamic, like the home environment and the influence that has on the educational experience. Of course, it is perfectly possible that even here school holidays and weekends spent at home are enough to upset the whole apple cart, undoing any good work done in the week or even over an entire term, but you can hardly blame the school or the system for that, can you? And heaven forbid social services or someone should step in to try to remove those negative influences on a more permenant basis - much better to leave the child in the dysfunctional environment until something really bad happens and then blame the 'system' for that!

 

Going with my head and not my guts - there are obviously schools and teachers which do support children well with ASD, as others have posted. How far they would be supportive if the parents weren't nudging them in the right direction, who knows? One thing is for sure, cuts to LA budgets are going to make life a lot tougher for even the schools which are doing OK.

 

I do agree with all of that, but would also add that the nudging should be a two way process. How do parents respond to being 'nudged in the right direction' by being asked to support schools with (i.e.) sanctions or exclusions? Often, not very reasonably at all, to judge from many posts around here... More often than not posts that report a positive school experience are the ones where that two-way respectful dialogue is fostered and maintained and where adjustments and compromises are made on both sides. It's threads that have titles like 'The utter inability of schools to support autistic people' that generally seem to overlook the importance of two way dialogue, or that get sidetracked by repeated posts challenging any individual who has the audacity to raise such a controversial consideration

 

L&P

 

BD

[lisac]

lol

[bid]

We all have our views of the system which are coloured by our own personal experiences, so this is a difficult debate to have because there is no wrong or right answer. BD, I think you do start from the default position that schools and teachers are doing the right thing by children with ASD - (and let's keep to ASD as that was the subject of the OP)and are reasonable. Which is fair enough as that's been your experience. I think unless you've had avenues of help repeatedly blocked, unless you've had a child struggling on for years and years with signs of difficulty being missed, unless you've had one or two or even three appeals thrown in and a few lies for good measure, unless you know that- barring miracles- your child is always going to be in the wrong school environment, you can't understand the utter despair and frustration which may lead parents to become more strident in asking for help - and often the help they are asking for is no more or less than the system is legally obliged to provide.

 

But I think a starting point would be acknowledging that some parent's do want (I'd go further and say 'expect') their child's every whim accommodated and don't give a flying fig for either the teaching staff or other pupils who have to try and circumnavigate those parents and/or the often violent, disruptive, arrogant, selfish progeny of such parents. But the mere suggestion, despite all the evidence, leads to a flurry of raised skirts and voices as Mums who claim not to indulge their children in such ways somehow manage to identify and take personal insult

 

Sure there are parents like this out there - (and incidentally not all of them are in skirts, many of the most stubborn and demanding parents who take a stance and refuse to negotiate or become obnoxious to the point of being banned from the playground are in fact men). Let me paint you another picture of a parent who I think is more typical of those who negotiate the SEN system: a parent who is too worn down, too bewildered or too unknowing to do more than just cope, let alone try and impose their will on the school. Such parents may be able to summon up the courage and energy to approach the school but they do it with diffidence and remain quietly apologetic about having to ask for support for their child. They don't know what to ask for or what's possible because they havent got the information they need. If they become manipulative, it's often because they have learned to be because that is the way they've been treated themselves - I doubt whether most parents have the energy to initiate such mind games.

 

Going back to Robert's OP - at a gut level I'm inclined to agree with you. My daughter had the ability to leave school with the full complement of GCSE's and A levels. She had no behaviour problems, was never aggressive or disruptive and was really motivated to learn and work. Yet she left school with no qualifications and a severe breakdown and I have to say, very little value added in terms of intellectual development, beyond Key stage 1. Call me idealistic but I sent a child to school at 5 hoping she would be happy and reach her potential. I had no reason to think otherwise - she was desperate to start school. Something has to be wrong with the system if a school cannot help a child learn who wants to learn. Something has to be wrong with the system where the only way for some children to learn is to be sent away from home, where there is no educational need to be.

 

Going with my head and not my guts - there are obviously schools and teachers which do support children well with ASD, as others have posted. How far they would be supportive if the parents weren't nudging them in the right direction, who knows? One thing is for sure, cuts to LA budgets are going to make life a lot tougher for even the schools which are doing OK.

 

K x

 

 

Thank you Kathryn...I think an excellent description of the education experience for the many thousands of children in mainstream schools, who either do not have a Statement or whose Statement is inadequate or unfulfilled.

 

You certainly speak for our experience of the education system.

 

Bid

[yorks]

Can I also add my many many thanks to you Kathryn for such a brilliant post. Your description basically summed up the nightmare we have been enduring for nearly 2 yrs.

I've been away from the forum for some weeks because I had felt really bullied by two particular forum members during an ongoing thread. However,it's great to see that there's some really good advice still on here and genuine people who know exactly what this hell is like.

 

Yorks

[bid]

 

So if the parents are so worn down, so feckless, so diffident, so quietly apologetic, so uninformed etc, how can they possibly know what's best for their child?

 

Can I just speak out in defence of such parents, as I was one myself for many years...although I would say I wasn't feckless...

 

As someone who had worked in social care BD, albeit the adult sector, you already had a background that made you familiar with special needs, autism, SS, and so on. If you don't have any experience of this at all, the whole system is even more overwhelming and confusing...I'm honestly not trying to down-play the impact for you of having a child with special needs at all <'> , just trying to show that you had a tiny head start as it were compared to most/many of us...just being familiar with the terminology makes a huge difference. You were able to approach the situation with at least a degree of knowledge.

 

I had absolutely no idea or knowledge about any of this when my son was diagnosed. The first time his school applied for a Statement, when he was 5, I just wrote one side of information for the LA because no one explained to me what evidence I really needed to submit. The school told me they would do it, I believed them...and unsurprisingly he didn't even get a Stautory Assessment. The minute I saw terms like 'tribunal' and court, I thought that was an impossible thing to tackle, because I had no idea parents go to tribunal every day and win.

 

All the way through 3 mainstream schools I tried my best to work with the schools in question...yet at every one staff refused to co-operate, and in one particular case actually sabotaged things. My son's medical team tried too, with multi-disciplinary meetings with school, and even they couldn't get staff to accept what they were saying about my son. To be fair, in those days within our LA autism wasn't even recognised as an educational special need!

 

I think it is really, really great when parents do find a school/LA who will work with them, and I do agree with you that such co-operation is the ideal model. My LA told me point blank that at 14 my son was too old to get a Statement (third attempt by now), but by then I had found this forum and proper advice and I didn't listen. But, I still sent thank you cards to the LA officers who were helpful throughout the Statementing process. I am also the first to say that once my son was Statemented, my LA was then actually faultless in finding a fantastic specialist placement for him and agreeing funding with no recourse to Tribunal (although we are possibly the only people in the history of the world that experienced this! )

 

I know this is just my personal experience, and believe me professionally I have come across parents of children with special needs who would make your hair curl (a few wanting unrealistic things in terms of provision, but actually, more towards the neglect end sadly)...but I think it is fairly representative of many, many parents with children within mainstream who are trying to get adequate support...parents who are just pretty normal, average people who don't try and ride roughshod over other people.

 

My experience with a specialist placement was overwhelmingly positive.

 

Bid

Edited April 28, 2011 by bid

[BusyLizzie100]

We all have our views of the system which are coloured by our own personal experiences, so this is a difficult debate to have because there is no wrong or right answer. BD, I think you do start from the default position that schools and teachers are doing the right thing by children with ASD - (and let's keep to ASD as that was the subject of the OP)and are reasonable. Which is fair enough as that's been your experience. I think unless you've had avenues of help repeatedly blocked, unless you've had a child struggling on for years and years with signs of difficulty being missed, unless you've had one or two or even three appeals thrown in and a few lies for good measure, unless you know that- barring miracles- your child is always going to be in the wrong school environment, you can't understand the utter despair and frustration which may lead parents to become more strident in asking for help - and often the help they are asking for is no more or less than the system is legally obliged to provide.

 

But I think a starting point would be acknowledging that some parent's do want (I'd go further and say 'expect') their child's every whim accommodated and don't give a flying fig for either the teaching staff or other pupils who have to try and circumnavigate those parents and/or the often violent, disruptive, arrogant, selfish progeny of such parents. But the mere suggestion, despite all the evidence, leads to a flurry of raised skirts and voices as Mums who claim not to indulge their children in such ways somehow manage to identify and take personal insult

 

Sure there are parents like this out there - (and incidentally not all of them are in skirts, many of the most stubborn and demanding parents who take a stance and refuse to negotiate or become obnoxious to the point of being banned from the playground are in fact men). Let me paint you another picture of a parent who I think is more typical of those who negotiate the SEN system: a parent who is too worn down, too bewildered or too unknowing to do more than just cope, let alone try and impose their will on the school. Such parents may be able to summon up the courage and energy to approach the school but they do it with diffidence and remain quietly apologetic about having to ask for support for their child. They don't know what to ask for or what's possible because they havent got the information they need. If they become manipulative, it's often because they have learned to be because that is the way they've been treated themselves - I doubt whether most parents have the energy to initiate such mind games.

 

Going back to Robert's OP - at a gut level I'm inclined to agree with you. My daughter had the ability to leave school with the full complement of GCSE's and A levels. She had no behaviour problems, was never aggressive or disruptive and was really motivated to learn and work. Yet she left school with no qualifications and a severe breakdown and I have to say, very little value added in terms of intellectual development, beyond Key stage 1. Call me idealistic but I sent a child to school at 5 hoping she would be happy and reach her potential. I had no reason to think otherwise - she was desperate to start school. Something has to be wrong with the system if a school cannot help a child learn who wants to learn. Something has to be wrong with the system where the only way for some children to learn is to be sent away from home, where there is no educational need to be.

 

Going with my head and not my guts - there are obviously schools and teachers which do support children well with ASD, as others have posted. How far they would be supportive if the parents weren't nudging them in the right direction, who knows? One thing is for sure, cuts to LA budgets are going to make life a lot tougher for even the schools which are doing OK.

 

K x

 

Again, thank you Kathryn for an excellent post.

 

As Bid says: 'I think an excellent description of the education experience for the many thousands of children in mainstream schools, who either do not have a Statement or whose Statement is inadequate or unfulfilled.

 

'You certainly speak for our experience of the education system.'

 

Lizzie

[baddad]

Oh lovely! 5 new posts apparently fueled by one trying to suggest that getting the best for our kids educationally should be a two-way, mutually respectful collaboration between home and school. As you so eloquently put it, Lisa; 'lol' indeed

 

Kathryn, you seem to have hit 'the spirit of the forum' right on the head. Congratulations! It would be lovely if you could now expand on that to explain why all of the issues I've raised can't or don't apply...

 

Yorks - I won't respond in any detail to your post lest I be accused of 'bullying', but the fact that someone voices the same opinion as you is not the same thing as 'really good advice'. If your own views are flawed in the first place, and someone echoes them for you, it's actually a dangerous reinforcer rather than 'good advice'. Not saying, of course, that's the case here; just pointing out a fundamental and potentially dangerous flaw in your logic. It is also rather dangerous and certainly unreasonable to assume that anyone who disagrees with you is 'bullying', or 'ingenuine' or lack insight of 'exactly what this hell is like'.

 

Bid - No I don't mind you mentioning my work as a carer at all, but I would ask you to avoid the term 'social care' in case it is misinterpreted as - horror of horrors -'social worker'. I know that's not what you meant, but others may not, and given that the popular perception of social workers these days is either evil child snatchers going round with nets trying to steal babies from doting parents or incompetent beuraucrats who stand by and do nothing while children are systematically abused by the evil parents (who should be easy to spot, because they wear t-shirts saying 'I am an evil parent', or somesuch and definitely DEFINITELY won't have disabled kids because we all know God only gives them to 'special people'...)I'd rather avoid a tarring with that particular brush! I would also add that as a carer of adults I knew absolutely nothing about the education system / side of things, and was actually very reliant on the advice and support of people who were more knowledgable than me on the subject - you among them, for which I thank you.

 

I do take your point about uncooperative staff - as you well know, it was a key problem in Ben's reception and infant primary years - but you'll also know the hours and hours I put into negotiating that, the many letters and hours spent writing letters, picking them apart, dotting i's crossing t's sending draft versions back and forth to the LEA... etc etc... Heaven forbid - can you imagine how difficult that kind of diplomacy is for someone like ME?! If I can do it, anyone can!

 

If you don't mind me talking about your social care experience (not, social work, I hasten to add lest you be tarred by the brush i tried to avoid above) for a mo, I think the school you work for is pretty much 52 weeks per year, isn't it, and mostly caring for profoundly autistic people(?). Is targeted 'bullying' (rather than undirected aggression) a major issue there, and are parents 'involved' in the same way that parents in a mainstream or 'HF' school might be? Are there day students too, where home influences may be a bigger factor, and do you find there's any correlation between those students and the kind of 'additional' pressures I've highlighted below?

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

General observations - not comment on any individual poster/child:

 

 

Here's the rub. And this is only MY experience...

The problems Ben faced in a mainstream primary were:

 

Attitudes of other parents.

Attitudes of other children (this really only coming to the fore in 'juniors' when the children started to approprioate the attitudes of their parents - up until that point it was mostly cool)

Bullying - (Ben very passive but very impulsive, so attracts lots of attention while simultaneously being reluctant to hit back)

Uncooperative/unhelpful staff. 'Clashes'. (primarly reception/yr 1/yr 2)

Fighting to get needs met/support faced with dwindling budgets, unavailability of provision (i.e. S&LT etc)etc etc.

 

The problems he now faces in a very good specialist school with a great rep are:

 

Attitudes of other parents.

Attitudes of other children

Bullying.

Uncooperative/unhelpful staff. 'Clashes'.

Fighting to get needs met / support faced with dwindling budgets, unavailability of provision (S&LT etc) etc etc

 

Issues like bullying are actually worse - Although it probably is a minority, the kids who do the bullying are generally bigger, more determined, and more empowered by their parents to bully without consequence, because every action the school does try to take to restrict them (detentions, exclusions etc) meets with objections and complaints - a scenario the children recognise only too well and exploit at every opportunity.

 

Bullying, clashes with staff, lack of provision are realities in EVERY school. Lets not pretend SEN schools are somehow exempt or fundamentally different in any way. The biggest 'difference' I've seen between mainstream and secondary provision is that in that small minority of kids who are violent, aggressive, bullying, disruptive and disrespectful there is an additional layer of parental involvement that generally makes the situation worse rather than better.

If schools were only populated by passive children, reluctant to hit back (as is most often the subjective 'case history' espoused when this subject comes up) then these issues wouldn't be issues, but somebody's kid has got to be the one actually doing the bullying, and nine times out of ten you can look to the influences of M&D and home, rather than school, for the explanation why they bully or feel they can get away with bullying. Quite often these same kids hold their family to ransom outside of school hours, 'bullying' or intimidating siblings and/or parents too. School will usually be blamed for that too, unsurprisingly... or the 'system' or 'autism' or 'the others' or absolutely, positively anyone and anything else the parent can offload their own responsibility/culpability onto.

 

I would really like it PLEASE if people tried a bit harder NOT to see the points I'm making as 'blaming parents' for all problems in school. I do think they can be/are part of the problem though, and no matter how many people feel offended or 'bullied' by that and post accordingly I have never seen anything on these forums to indicate that in general terms I'm wrong. If anyone wants to present a coherent (rather than emotional or personal) or rational explanation for why parents of disabled children can't ever be wrong or why our education system can't be further compromised than it already is by empowering parents who are in the wrong I'm happy to listen and comment, but other than that, lets just agree to differ, eh?

 

L&P

 

BD

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, you seem to have hit 'the spirit of the forum' right on the head. Congratulations! It would be lovely if you could now expand on that to explain why all of the issues I've raised can't or don't apply...

 

Could that because I'm...er.... right?

 

Happy to continue this discussion later (preferably with a large glass of wine in front of me) but I'm at work right now so it will have to wait.

 

K x

[bid]

Bid - No I don't mind you mentioning my work as a carer at all, but I would ask you to avoid the term 'social care' in case it is misinterpreted as - horror of horrors -'social worker'. I know that's not what you meant, but others may not, and given that the popular perception of social workers these days is either evil child snatchers going round with nets trying to steal babies from doting parents or incompetent beuraucrats who stand by and do nothing while children are systematically abused by the evil parents (who should be easy to spot, because they wear t-shirts saying 'I am an evil parent', or somesuch and definitely DEFINITELY won't have disabled kids because we all know God only gives them to 'special people'...)I'd rather avoid a tarring with that particular brush! I would also add that as a carer of adults I knew absolutely nothing about the education system / side of things, and was actually very reliant on the advice and support of people who were more knowledgable than me on the subject - you among them, for which I thank you.

 

I do take your point about uncooperative staff - as you well know, it was a key problem in Ben's reception and infant primary years - but you'll also know the hours and hours I put into negotiating that, the many letters and hours spent writing letters, picking them apart, dotting i's crossing t's sending draft versions back and forth to the LEA... etc etc... Heaven forbid - can you imagine how difficult that kind of diplomacy is for someone like ME?! If I can do it, anyone can!

 

If you don't mind me talking about your social care experience (not, social work, I hasten to add lest you be tarred by the brush i tried to avoid above) for a mo, I think the school you work for is pretty much 52 weeks per year, isn't it, and mostly caring for profoundly autistic people(?). Is targeted 'bullying' (rather than undirected aggression) a major issue there, and are parents 'involved' in the same way that parents in a mainstream or 'HF' school might be? Are there day students too, where home influences may be a bigger factor, and do you find there's any correlation between those students and the kind of 'additional' pressures I've highlighted below?

 

 

at your 'diplomatic skills' comment

 

My school: no, we are a 38 week placement, although some of our students with the most complex needs go into respite during the holidays, and some of our Looked After children will go to children's homes or foster care. The young people I work with cover the whole range of difficulties really; we have some with the most profound autism and/or medical needs right across to those who are much more able with MLD, but either have severe epilepsy or complex mental health problems including psychosis. We do have a few day students.

 

Hmmm: re. the issues you highlight. We do have 'bullying' and 'winding up' of some students by the more canny individuals. This is dealt with by implementing firm boundaries and loss of 'rewards'...we also have an in-house behavioural specialist who constantly monitors behaviour, liaising with home and residential/academic staff. With regard to things slipping during holidays, I would say that with our students it is more over things like toileting, but then equally I can see how with the level of need those particular students present, it can be very, very difficult for mum and dad when they have no help 24/7. It is very easy for us as staff to keep the momentum going because we go home at the end of our shift, and are working in a highly trained, close-knit team who constantly back each other up. I think it is fair to say that some of our students have had a great deal done 'for' them by their parents, but then equally I can understand that when you look at the difficulties they face and how that grief and loss affects parents.

 

I have seen neglect where the students DLA was quite clearly not being spent on them, as they would come back with second hand, dirty clothes, while siblings would be wearing GAP and so on. From a point of view of provision, very rarely have we had parents who have unrealistic expectations, but in over 6 years I have only seen that once...but yes, then it was awful for staff, who were shouted at and threatened, etc. There are smaller day-to-day 'gripes' which I think is probably unavoidable, but really i have only known of one major upsetting of staff.

 

But, over all I have to say that truthfully the vast majority of our parents are really lovely, worry about their children and send us thank you cards, and pressies at the end of terms, etc. I thought it was very interesting when I was chatting to our behavioural specialist once that they said the one thing they can guarantee is that new parents just want to talk, because they feel that no-one has ever listened to them before.

 

Thank you too for explaining a little bit more about the difficulties you have faced/still face with school...it gives a wider picture of what you have had to deal with

 

Bid

Edited April 28, 2011 by bid

[sesley]

Well things have worked out for us so far lucky us. i do understand that others aren't and it is down to who gets what and where from the authoritys and the professionals.thats not to say we have had it completely easy,because we haven't.We have had a awful teacher who was not interested in autism and a feckless head teacher.was not going to really understand it at one point.at another the school ot the head decided that our son was thee worst autistic child they ahve ever had and asked would he not be best somewhere else,luckliy we had support form NAS advocates who said no he is best where he is and the school needs to learn how to teach him. we have had the head trying to exclude him from outward bound trip,with negative excuses,again we had support and he went successfully.In August he will go to the big school and so far we have had good response from the support for learning department for that,who knows what he will be like during puberty we have that to come.the success in school life very much depends on if the teaching staff are interested and care enough about autism,to train for it.if they are not then thats when things go wrong.

[baddad]

Could that because I'm...er.... right?

 

Happy to continue this discussion later (preferably with a large glass of wine in front of me) but I'm at work right now so it will have to wait.

 

K x

 

Hmmm... if you were speaking to the flat earth society and telling them the earth is flat, would that make you popular or 'right'?

If speaking to bible belt fundamentalists and telling them God made dinosaur bones and buried them to test our faith would that make you popular or 'right'...

 

have a nice afternoon at work.

l8rs, t8rs

 

[Kathryn]

BD I merely posted as I see it - and which thread are you reading?? Three or four people on this thread identify with what I've described - hardly indicative of the "spirit of the forum" since there are at least three people who have also said they have not had such negative experiences - (and Bid has had good and bad experiences ). I think everyone here has posted coherent and rational arguments even those describing their personal experiences with the system - I haven't seen any generalisations that "parents know best" or any of the extreme standpoints you assume parents on the forum automatically take up, so I don't know where you're getting this from apart from the script which appears to be activated in your own head every time a thread like this comes up.

 

No, I don't start with any 'default' position, and that hasn't been my experience either. I've mentioned several times on forum that the first couple of years in the infants were very difficult for Ben, and I spent years getting his statement to reflect his needs with the LEA... And I know other parents whose children attended the same school who were less happy with the school's efforts on behalf of those children. Getting it 'right' meant working with the school rather than fighting against them, and an underlying mutual respect. If anything has 'coloured' my views it is my observations of other parents who would not compromise, hadn't even the notion of 'mutual respect' in their dealings with the school and had totally unrealistic and unreasonable expectations of them. Exactly the same thing applies to my son's secondary education in a highly regarded specialist school, and the attitudes of those parents (reflected in and informing the behaviours of their children) who criticise the efforts made on their children's behalf there.

 

I think you've kind of proved my point. Everyone has an inherent bias and yours is based on negative experiences and observations of a small number of parents in your son's school, and nobody can claim to be objective in any situation which affects our own child, directly or indirectly. Incidentally I wonder if you would have had the same positive view of the school if the head had been one of those who don't believe in ASD? Where would your faith in the system be if you had had to fight - I mean really fight- to get your son his special school place? Compared to what some parents have to go through to get a similar placement, your battles might be considered mere skirmishes in the foothills, I believe your LEA is one which routinely employs barristers to fight appeals, for example and it's very rare to win a placement like yours without at least one appeal along the way.

 

Let's leave the 'bad' schools aside for the moment... What of those schools that have a fantastic reputation and the children who 'fail' within them. Do the parents of those children accept any part in that failure, or acknowledge any flaw in the attitudes their children take in each morning? Of course not! It is still the system to blame, still the teaching methods, still pretty much anything you can think of except the attitude of the child or influences from the home environment. Funny thing is, whenever I watch any documentary about problems in schools it is, almost invariably, the wider experiences of 'difficult' pupils (rather than experiences in school) that are most influential, and there is no logical argument to suggest that children with SEN's are somehow exempt from those wider experiences. In fact, all research into disability suggests that the problems outside of school are likely to be more profound.

 

There are parents who fail in their responsibilities and some of them may of course be parents of children with SEN - I'm not disputing that. But I simply do not recognise the kind of identikit SEN mummy from hell you describe. I do in the course of my work speak to a large number of parents from all backgrounds and situations so I think am in a strong position to see the wider picture. I can testify that a few are unreasonable, stubborn, litiginous and uncooperative, but as far as SEN is concerned, the vast majority actually have to be encouraged and empowered to approach the school and ask for help. Lets face it, most parents start off with a natural deference to school teachers, and a willingness to believe that schools must know best (probably a hangover from our own school days!) which often prevents the more timid amongst us from raising concerns and we sometimes have to be persuaded out of that position into one of assertiveness and constructive engagenment with the school. I certainly had to be.

 

My own experience of most playground 'showdowns' has been mums, and certainly with regard to SEN I think many dads are completely 'locked out' from having any sort of input other than having to back up mum in whatever she's decided. You haven't got to look far around the forum to see the general consensus regarding dad's and disabled kids: 'He's in denial/he doesn't understand/he hasn't got a clue/he causes the problems rather then helping with them' etc etc etc.

 

As playground mums are in the majority it's more likely that it's mums who will be involved in the showdowns. However as men are more physically aggressive they are probably the ones who have thumped the head -or other parents and been banned from the school playground. Seriously that's not been my experience - dads are often just as involved in their child's education, making phone calls and writing letters and going to meetings, it's usually the case that mums have more time in the day to routinely deal with school issues.

 

So if the parents are so worn down, so feckless, so diffident, so quietly apologetic, so uninformed etc, how can they possibly know what's best for their child? Actually, I do agree that there are many parents in that position (the question I've placed at the end of that is actually a challenge to the logic of 'parents know best' - not a criticism or judgement on parents who need support), and i think services should be there to help them and their children. But they're not the parents (or children) we're talking about, we're talking about the ones who feel so empowered and so certain of their own instincts that they feel completely comfortable to dictate exactly how the school should respond to their child, giving him/her precedence over every other child in the school and regardless of any input from the specialist teams generally considered as the most qualified in informing school policy in such cases.

 

I didn't use the word "feckless" to describe SEN parents so don't know how that crept in. (What's the opposite of feckless anyway? ) Parents usually start off ignorant of the system and as Bid says the whole SEN process taxes even the most intrepid parents but ignorance doesn't necessarily indicate that they can't observe from their child's behaviour when something is going wrong at school. Yes (heresy!! ) I do believe in some cases parents may know what works for a child - or what doesn't work - better than school staff do and in some cases, better than some professionals. Depends on the school. Depends on the parent. Depends on the professional. Of course there has to be compromise and parents should not dictate everything but the parent's views deserve more weight than they are frequently given and all the vast reams of SEN consutltation documents produced by governments acknowledge that. As does the good old SEN Code of Practice - (still in force -God knows for how much longer. )

 

I do agree with all of that, but would also add that the nudging should be a two way process. How do parents respond to being 'nudged in the right direction' by being asked to support schools with (i.e.) sanctions or exclusions? Often, not very reasonably at all, to judge from many posts around here... More often than not posts that report a positive school experience are the ones where that two-way respectful dialogue is fostered and maintained and where adjustments and compromises are made on both sides. It's threads that have titles like 'The utter inability of schools to support autistic people' that generally seem to overlook the importance of two way dialogue, or that get sidetracked by repeated posts challenging any individual who has the audacity to raise such a controversial consideration

 

To be fair, the OP was commenting mainly on his own school experience and he's not a parent but as I said before, there have been some balanced views from both sides - disappointing I know when you like to cast yourself as the lone voice of enlightenment - but you aren't on this thread.

 

As to mutual respect and "two way nudging" I agree totally. The emphasis has to be on "mutual" though. I could cite many situations where parents have not been afforded that respect or where schools have just got it wrong - how long a list do you want? You talk about exclusions - how about parents who routinely get told just to take their child home and keep him there - never mind the formal exclusion process? Or whose child gets put on an indefinite and purposeless part time timetable as a support mechanism? As for LEA's, I freely acknowledge my own prejudice - and my default position is that with regard to SEN they are not to be trusted until they demonstrate otherwise. I am happy to be shifted from that position but I've seen nothing to convince me yet.

 

K x

Edited April 29, 2011 by Kathryn

[baddad]

BD I merely posted as I see it - and which thread are you reading?? Three or four people on this thread identify with what I've described - hardly indicative of the "spirit of the forum" since there are at least three people who have also said they have not had such negative experiences - (and Bid has had good and bad experiences ). I think everyone here has posted coherent and rational arguments even those describing their personal experiences with the system - I haven't seen any generalisations that "parents know best" or any of the extreme standpoints you assume parents on the forum automatically take up, so I don't know where you're getting this from apart from the script which appears to be activated in your own head every time a thread like this comes up.

 

 

I was looking at this thread, and the proliferation of smileys following your post. What thread were you looking at? Please don't make comments like 'the script which appears to be activated in your own head every time a thread like this comes up', it's at the very least a 'pot and kettle' call, but I think probably a bit more than that too... given your love of the theatrical, and your use of terms like 'script' and 'cast' I might be tempted to voice the opinion you're 'playing to the gallery'

 

Looking back at the whole thread, I initially responded to the assertion that schools were 'utterly unable to support autistic children' and the additional implication that five-times-a-day-meltdowns were a direct result of the schools failure in supporting autistic children. Though not directly stated, the OP also seemed to suggest that the 'answer' would be to let children dictate for themselves what they would learn and when and how they would learn it. Every post (I think?) I've made after that has been made in response to other peoples posts taking exception to what I've said, your posts being prime examples.

 

mental scripts, i arsk ya

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited April 29, 2011 by baddad

[BusyLizzie100]

BD I merely posted as I see it - and which thread are you reading?? Three or four people on this thread identify with what I've described - hardly indicative of the "spirit of the forum" since there are at least three people who have also said they have not had such negative experiences - (and Bid has had good and bad experiences ). I think everyone here has posted coherent and rational arguments even those describing their personal experiences with the system - I haven't seen any generalisations that "parents know best" or any of the extreme standpoints you assume parents on the forum automatically take up, so I don't know where you're getting this from apart from the script which appears to be activated in your own head every time a thread like this comes up.

 

 

 

I think you've kind of proved my point. Everyone has an inherent bias and yours is based on negative experiences and observations of a small number of parents in your son's school, and nobody can claim to be objective in any situation which affects our own child, directly or indirectly. Incidentally I wonder if you would have had the same positive view of the school if the head had been one of those who don't believe in ASD? Where would your faith in the system be if you had had to fight - I mean really fight- to get your son his special school place? Compared to what some parents have to go through to get a similar placement, your battles might be considered mere skirmishes in the foothills, I believe your LEA is one which routinely employs barristers to fight appeals, for example and it's very rare to win a placement like yours without at least one appeal along the way.

 

 

 

There are parents who fail in their responsibilities and some of them may of course be parents of children with SEN - I'm not disputing that. But I simply do not recognise the kind of identikit SEN mummy from hell you describe. I do in the course of my work speak to a large number of parents from all backgrounds and situations so I think am in a strong position to see the wider picture. I can testify that a few are unreasonable, stubborn, litiginous and uncooperative, but as far as SEN is concerned, the vast majority actually have to be encouraged and empowered to approach the school and ask for help. Lets face it, most parents start off with a natural deference to school teachers, and a willingness to believe that schools must know best (probably a hangover from our own school days!) which often prevents the more timid amongst us from raising concerns and we sometimes have to be persuaded out of that position into one of assertiveness and constructive engagenment with the school. I certainly had to be.

 

 

 

As playground mums are in the majority it's more likely that it's mums who will be involved in the showdowns. However as men are more physically aggressive they are probably the ones who have thumped the head -or other parents and been banned from the school playground. Seriously that's not been my experience - dads are often just as involved in their child's education, making phone calls and writing letters and going to meetings, it's usually the case that mums have more time in the day to routinely deal with school issues.

 

 

 

I didn't use the word "feckless" to describe SEN parents so don't know how that crept in. (What's the opposite of feckless anyway? ) Parents usually start off ignorant of the system and as Bid says the whole SEN process taxes even the most intrepid parents but ignorance doesn't necessarily indicate that they can't observe from their child's behaviour when something is going wrong at school. Yes (heresy!! ) I do believe in some cases parents may know what works for a child - or what doesn't work - better than school staff do and in some cases, better than some professionals. Depends on the school. Depends on the parent. Depends on the professional. Of course there has to be compromise and parents should not dictate everything but the parent's views deserve more weight than they are frequently given and all the vast reams of SEN consutltation documents produced by governments acknowledge that. As does the good old SEN Code of Practice - (still in force -God knows for how much longer. )

 

 

 

To be fair, the OP was commenting mainly on his own school experience and he's not a parent but as I said before, there have been some balanced views from both sides - disappointing I know when you like to cast yourself as the lone voice of enlightenment - but you aren't on this thread.

 

As to mutual respect and "two way nudging" I agree totally. The emphasis has to be on "mutual" though. I could cite many situations where parents have not been afforded that respect or where schools have just got it wrong - how long a list do you want? You talk about exclusions - how about parents who routinely get told just to take their child home and keep him there - never mind the formal exclusion process? Or whose child gets put on an indefinite and purposeless part time timetable as a support mechanism? As for LEA's, I freely acknowledge my own prejudice - and my default position is that with regard to SEN they are not to be trusted until they demonstrate otherwise. I am happy to be shifted from that position but I've seen nothing to convince me yet.

 

K x

 

Excellent post, Kathryn. Points well made and very well expressed.

 

Lizzie x