Anger in an 8 year old

[Chloes mum]

Does anyone have any tips on dealing with major anger issues in my 8 year old daughter?

 

She is not autistic, her younger sister is, but her anger, violence and massive temper tantrums are getting completely out of control.

Both girls have gone through a really tough time recently and I know this is causing her to lash out at anyone over the slightest little thing, but nothing I try seems to make a difference.

I am recently separated from their dad and I have residency of the girls. Dad sees them once a week under supervision. He was physically abusive towards both of them whilst we were married, and that led to the separation. He was more violent towards my older girl and also filled her head with lies - telling her that if she told anyone that he was hurting her then she would be taken into care, telling her that the marraige breakdown was her fault and that he wished she'd never been born etc. He caused her physical injuries requiring hospital treatment and abandoned her in a car park one evening.

Her dad suffers from depression, self harms and has attemped suicide.

She knows she is safe now, as there is a court order in place preventing her dad from coming into the house and all his contact must be supervised. She says she loves him, but I struggle every week when it comes to his contact time - she doesn't want to go and will use any excuse possible to avoid it, but the contact order states that I have to make them available, so basically she has to go.

I have spent hours and hours talking to her about her feelings, reassuring her that its not her fault and that I love her and she is safe with me etc etc, but nothing seems to make a difference.

She gets angry over anything and everything. She is disruptive, rude, violent, aggressive, disobedient and has major temper tantrums, throwing herself on the floor like a toddler and screaming. She blames her sister for everything and will do her best to get her into trouble. She seems jealous of her sister, as her dad treated her sister better than he treated her.

 

I can fully understand why she is behaving like she does, but how do I help her? She is in counselling (arranged by the school) but what else can I do? I do sanction her bad behaviour, and I always try to be firm and consitant with her, but it doesn't make any difference. She flies off the handle so quickly and will attack everyone around her. she is alienating most of her friends, and making it impossible for me to take them anywhere or do anything with them. I can't even have friends or relatives come to the house as she always kicks off.

Its better when I'm on my own with her, as I guess she wants me all to herself, but if anyone else is around she will be rude and cheeky

What can I do?

[baddad]

It sounds to me as if you are bending over backwards to reassure her, and that maybe that's just adding to her confusion. I'd be less inclined to spend huge amounts of time reassuring with words and put more time in to reassuring with deeds. Part of that will be offering her the reassurance, through actions, that she will have a 'normal' life from now on - a life where she will be the child and a responsible adult will be looking after her. To reassure her of that she needs a 'mum' not a 'best friend'. A mum will provide her with boundaries and expectations and not be fearful of upsetting her by enforcing them. From what you've said, you are already giving her that, so make that one of the 'cornerstones' on which you build the rest of your relationship...

 

Her wanting you 'all to herself' is in some ways natural (bear in mind too, that if you have recently split from her father there will be all sorts of 'control' issues coming to the fore while the family dymnamic is being remodelled) but it is also, with the best will in the world, completely unreasonable even before taking your younger daughter into account. You have to try to find a balance that gives her some quality time and reassurance but which also gives you time and space to attend to the other things you have to attend to. You may need to be quite direct in showing her that she can't have her cake and eat it. Make time for her, and make it a priority, but also make it a priority that it's not all/only on her terms, and don't be afraid because of historical events from standing up to her when she does want it all her own way. Ultimately, if you don't, she will just demand more and more from you, and she will become even more confused and unhappy about the inversion of roles that's developing, where she, the child is dictating the movements of the family rather than you, the mother, doing so. you can't take her/them anywhere, because she will 'kick off' and you can't have people visit for the same reason. She has all the power in that dynamic, and you need to break that cycle as a matter of urgency. Take them regardless, invite people regardless, deal with the meltdowns and sanction her for them in a way that is meaningful for her. Most importantly, don't try to 'negotiate' with her - just give her absolutes. She needs reassuring blacks and whites, not, mucky, confusing greys. Negotiation is a two-way street that involves compromise and consideration, and at the moment she's either unwilling or unable (or both)to do either of those things. You can relax the 'concrete' a bit when she's back to a place where she can meet you half way, but trying to do so before is likely to make you both miserable.

 

I do appreciate all of that will be really difficult for you, and you'll be struggling with feelings of 'guilt' etc that make it even more difficult. The reality is, though, she needs those boundaries and they are the only things that will reassure her over time, and putting them off is only likely to lead to further deterioration in your family/relationship, and that will be harder to redress the longer it goes on.

 

Hope that's helpful.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Oh - PS: I would avoid, if possible, allowing her (or the people helping her) put too much emphasis on phrases like 'anger management issues'... That phrase has cropped up a lot on TV recently (I saw it last week on a prog about a charity called 'save the family' and again on a programme about ADHD and ineffective parenting), and invariably it has been the person claiming to have anger management issues using the term as a justification for allowing their anger full vent, rather than seeing it as a problem they need to overcome or manage. It's more a matter of context rather than the phrase itself, but increasingly the context it should be used in seems to be twisted out of shape until something that should be a positive becomes a negative.

Edited April 24, 2011 by baddad

[barefoot wend]

Chloes Mum

 

Whilst it is good your daughter is receiving counselling from school, I think you need professional help as a family to deal with the enormous emotion and trauma you have been through and advice with strategies to move forward as a family.

 

I would go to your GP and ask for a referral to your local Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services where they will have a qualified and experienced family therapist, or other professional, who will be able to help you all through this immensely difficult time.

 

 

Barefoot

[Chloes mum]

Thanks Baddad, that makes a lot of sense.

 

I do try to put very firm boundaries in place, and once I've said something to her I do stick to it, so she does know where she stands with regard to sanctions. She doesn't get away with much - there is always a consequence for a bad behaviour. It just doesn't seem to make much difference!!

 

However I think she is dictacting the family dynamics, as I do tend to avoid taking them places as a result of her behaviour. I really can't cope with being 'judged' by onlookers, especially as it has always been difficult taking her younger sister out anyway, as she doesn't cope well with lots of people or changes to routine etc. I take on board what you say about taking them regardless and inviting people round regardless. You're right, and I think I do need to be more black and white with her.

I'll give it a go!!

 

She does use 'anger' as an excuse for everything. No matter what she's done, if you ask her why she's done whatever it may be, she'll say 'because i'm angry over whats happened' It does feel as though she's using recent events as an excuse to behave however she wants.

 

She's very confused over things. She doesn't fully understand a lot of whats happened. For example she knows that the police were at our house one evening for several hours, and that the police were out looking for her dad, but she doesn't know why (this was the evening of his last suicide attempt, where he left a note and then disappeared) She keeps asking why the police were looking for him, and why he had to go to hospital when he was found. alls i've told her is that daddy wasn't very well and the police had to look for him to take him to hospital. Trouble is she's not daft, she knows i'm hiding the truth, but is she really old enough to be told the truth?

 

Barefoot Wend - I had been thinking of taking her to our GP to try to get her some proper counselling, so I think I will do that. Trouble is in our area there always seems to be a big waiting list for services like that!!

[baddad]

Hi again -

Yep, that awful social embarassment of judgemental onlookers can be hugely intimidating, I know. Our kids tend to know it too, bless 'em!

 

That confusion she's feeling is completely natural, and she will also, despite knowing that things could be 'bad' when dad was around, be confused / disorientated by the separation too. She wouldn't have that adult's perspective on the problems that existed in the family dynamic; for her it would have been 'normal', because in her limited experience it was 'the norm'...

 

Something that's very difficult to negotiate with kids is where to 'hang tough' and where to meet them half way. I think the place you're at at the moment is the one where she needs lots of reassurance, but where she also needs absolutes. The danger of overcompensating and allowing her to assume a 'victim' role is that over time it may cease to be a role and become a lifestyle/personality trait that could dominate the rest of her life. She sounds a pretty smart kid, so hopefully would avoid that trap for herself, but 'belt and braces' is always safest, IMO.

 

Not usually the kind of thing we find being discussed for siblings on the forum, but if you look around the boards there's lots of advice on reward and incentive schemes and strategies to work in tandem with those concrete boundaries and sanctions. It's easy to forget when you're used to thinking about autism every day that they can be just as valuable, viable and useful for NT 8 year olds in crisis too!

 

With regard to counselling I hope you can find something suitable soon, but I would urge you to be very cautious with any choices you make. Good counsellors can be worth their weight in gold, but there are also many who turn out to be the worst kind of enablers imaginable. If they come across as patronising or tend to talk in soundbites, cliches or maxims kick 'em out of touch pretty sharpish!

 

I hope all your efforts do start to make a difference soon, and that you can relax a bit from needing to hang tough and do a bit more of the 'BFF' stuff we all want to do for our kids. It is, after all, the bit we signed up for when we had them and the bit that makes all the horrid stuff worth it. Remember that when you're feeling guilty (or when she's trying to make you feel guilty) and hopefully it'll be reassuring for you both.

 

L&P

 

BD

[coolblue]

Has your daughter been fully consulted by the powers that be about whether or not she wants to see her father? I understand that you cannot prevent him seeing her, but it doesn't sound as if she has signed up to this arrangement.

 

cb

[oxgirl]

She's very confused over things. She doesn't fully understand a lot of whats happened. For example she knows that the police were at our house one evening for several hours, and that the police were out looking for her dad, but she doesn't know why (this was the evening of his last suicide attempt, where he left a note and then disappeared) She keeps asking why the police were looking for him, and why he had to go to hospital when he was found. alls i've told her is that daddy wasn't very well and the police had to look for him to take him to hospital. Trouble is she's not daft, she knows i'm hiding the truth, but is she really old enough to be told the truth?

 

My advice would be to tell her the truth, or as much of it as she needs to know and asks for. My father commited suicide when I was nearly ten and prior to that he had been violent to us and we were all very frightened of him. After he died I was extremely disturbed for many years, very confused and insecure, terrified that my mum would disappear too. I was put on medication but nobody ever talked to me, ever. I was taken to school the day after he died and left crying at my desk. The teacher sent me to collect the milk for the class and whilst I was gone the other children were told to be nice to me that day. That was it. Neither my mother, nor the school, or anyone, discussed it with me again.

 

It sounds like you are doing a wonderful job and are very supportive of your daughter and giving her the reassurance she desperately needs. I certainly agree with BD regarding the boundaries needed, and you're doing that too. My only advice would be, if she asks a question, answer it, she's full of confusion and conflicting feelings and if she's asking something it's because she needs to know. Sometimes the truth is easier to take than what she might be thinking in her head and is not able to express.

 

I also agree with Coolblue, does she have any say in whether she sees her father or not? I think every week is too often, once a month would be better, in my view, as it would give her more time to feel settled inbetween visit.

 

Very best of luck with getting the extra help you need.

 

~ Mel ~

[Chloes mum]

Hi Oxgirl and Coolblue

 

Thankyou both for your replies.

 

The day after his latest suicide attempt a child protection investigation was launched by the police and social services. A police officer and social worker went into the school to interview both girls seperately. I wasn't able to warn them as I didn't know beforehand. This was an extremely frightening thing for my elder daughter, especially as the interviews were conducted in the headmistresses office. Her dad had already threatened her by telling her that if she told anyone what he was doing to her, then her and her sister would be taken away by social services and placed in separate foster homes. With his words ringing in her ears, she gave them no information, and as a result (despite several different adult witnesses to various assaults) the CPS decided not to prosecute.

It was agreed in court that he would have weekly access, fully supervised, pending a social services report. the contact order states I have to make them available for contact, otherwise I am committing an offence. My eldest is aware of this, but she has asked me to ask the judge if she can see him less often. She has said once a month is what she would like and she has stated she doesn't want to be on her own with him. When social services eventually get round to writing this report I am guessing they will seek the views of the children. I have told her that she has to tell the social worker what she really wants, and hopefully they will listen to her.

 

It is difficult though, as every week her behaviour deteriorates a the day before she knows she was to see him, and only gets better once the visit is over. She tries every trick in the book to avoid going, claiming she's ill or she feels sick etc. When she comes back from seeing him she is always upset over something that he's said or done. nothing major, just little subtle things that he seems to do to upset her. Usually she feels that he gives more attention to her sister, and so she feels left out and ignored. She hates going, and I hate sending her, but I'm not sure theres another option at the moment.

He struggles to cope with them when he does see them, even with his mother helping him, and so this week he cut short his contact by about 40 minutes (its only 2 hours long anyway) as he lost the plot with them and started screaming at them. My eldest said he was screaming in her face with his fists clenched and a look on his face that she felt showed he wanted to kill her (her words, not mine) and so she ran off frightened, and so grandma had to take them to her house and I collected them from there.

He has threatened to cut all contact with the girls many times, and used it to blackmail me into staying with him for a while. I used to think they'd be devastated if he deserted them, but now I almost think it would be for the best

[Mumble]

Chloe's Mum,

 

Please get some help for your daughter. I don't think this has anything to do with your other child's ASD. I was in a very similar situation to your daughter as a child (and my brother's severely autistic which became a useful excuse for any 'behaviours'). I had the same threats (and worse) made to me about what would happen if I told anyone and so I didn't tell anyone and endured the abuse till I was 15. I'm getting help now as an adult but in many ways it's too late. If I could go back and change things knowing what I know now, I would have said something from the beginning rather than let things escalate.

 

It sounds like she's terrified of him and there's clear evidence he's not coping with her. Maybe cutting contact wouldn't be the worst thing - it would allow you all to start afresh.

 

Please see your GP and get her some support; it will be really difficult and will quite possibly get worse before it gets better, but in the long run you're better dealing with these issues now than her have to find a way of coping as a adult.

[bid]

Please, please seek professional advice and help for this situation.

 

This is a child protection issue, and a child who has been abused (which is on-going IMO from your descritption of the latest access visit) needs specialist help as a matter of urgency.

 

(I am a CP lead officer at work.)

 

Bid

Edited April 25, 2011 by bid

[JsMum]

Hi Cloes Mum you sound like your going throw very traumatic times and wonder if your daughter needs further psychotheraputic work, what she may have is a condition called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, even after the event she was then interviewed in the Headteachers office as well, a room usually to deal with school issues not the issues she has had to endure, she may well need very spercific therapy.

 

Here is a link.

 

 

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Post-traumatic-stress-disorder/Pages/Introduction.aspx

 

I have recieved in the past for my son Anger Management at Family support unit, they also did some work around his Father who died when my son was a baby.

 

so I recommend them to you here is one that maybe in your area.

 

http://www.ihumberside.co.uk/profile/123397/Hull/Family-Assessment-and-Support-Unit/

 

 

Another great place for councilling and spersific councilling is Relate they do family and individual councilling.

 

http://www.relate.org.uk/relate-office/70/index.html

 

 

There is some really great booklets and helpful information from Young minds too about anger and feelings, so recommend you contact them and they will send your daugther booklets for her.

 

They may know further details of councilling, specific therapies for your daughter too.

 

They have an phone psychiatrist who can talk too you book them and are free.

 

The service is good as it has a helpline for parents to talk about their concerns.

 

http://www.youngminds.org.uk/publications/all-publications/feeling-angry

 

There is a downloadable one avialable here on anger. plus look on the left side and there is loads more booklets.

 

http://www.youngminds.org.uk/parents

 

There maybe a support group where your daughter could join where other children join up together and do activities who have parent/s with mental health disorders so check out your local areas services.

 

http://www.taktent.org.uk/metal-health-articles/parents-mental-health.html

 

This link may know more precise childrens support group.

 

http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/portal/page?_pageid=221,582187&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

 

 

and the last thing Im going to recommend is a childs rights advocate.

 

My son has one as he is a child in need due to his special needs and is currently looked after child and the advocate is there for J where ever he goes.

 

So recommend a child rights advocate, I found my sosn via this website who then referred me to a local childrens advocacy service.

 

http://www.nyas.net/

 

 

 

Anyway I really do hope that things can get sorted out and that your daughter gets the support she needs.

 

JsMumxxx

Edited April 25, 2011 by JsMum

[JsMum]

Reguarding the access and contact arrangements you may need further legal advice here is additional links that maybe able to help.

 

http://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/

 

http://www.communitylegaladvice.org.uk/gateway/family.jsp

 

JsMumx

[Chloes mum]

Thanks for all the advice.

 

I will make an appointment with our GP and try to get her some professional help.

 

I have emailed the social worker a couple of weeks ago to find out what happens next with regard to the report they have to write, but she hasn't bothered to reply yet. I've only ever seen her once, and to be honest, she wasn't much use. i know my daughter is keen to speak to her to she can express her wishes, but nothing seems to happen fast.

 

does anyone know anything about family support workers supervising parental contact? At the minute his mother is supervising his contact, but I'm not convinced she is the best person to do it. After all she is his mother so if something did go badly wrong i'm not convinced I would get an accurate account of events! A social worker supervised his contact for a couple of weeks when his mother was on holiday, and both girls have said they preferred that. Will social services fund supervision if there is a relative willing to do it?

 

Js mum - thanks for all the links. I've had a quick look at the young minds website and it looks really useful. I think I might phone their helpline and see what they suggest. You mentioned relate counselling, Do they counsell children? For some reason I thought that was an adult service?

 

Many thanks to everyone for all the help x

[JsMum]

Hi Cloe

 

In some areas of the uk Relate do council children.

 

Here is a link for more informationx

 

http://www.relate.org.uk/young-people-counselling/index.html

 

And for the supervision, I would of thought a social worker/residentail care worker would need to supervise, his mother may have a conflict of interest and its obvous in her supervision your girls are not safe as he has behaved aggressively volitile towards your daughter in her presence.

 

I would defo get a solitor on board and your daughter can request one on her behalf.

 

I would say it is essential that it is a purpose contact centre with qualified, experienced Social worker who does the contact supervision, usually they keep a log of the contact session writing any concerns down and logging it and recording it.

 

I would defo get legal advise.

 

JsMumx

[oxgirl]

Do the girls meet with him at his mother's house or do they have to go to a contact centre? I thought, with the history, that the supervision would be done by SS at a specific contact centre, which would be much safer than a private house where anything could happen! Does his mother stay with the girls and their father for the entire visit?

 

I would write down an account of all contact they have, make a note of everything your daughter tells you that her father said and did while she was with him so that you have a written account to show to the SW when they finally do get in touch.

 

I really, really do feel for you and your daughters and hope something happens soon so that you don't have to keep suffering like this.

 

~ Mel ~

[Chloes mum]

Hi Js Mum and Oxgirl

 

The contact is not done at an offical contact centre. It is usually at either his mothers house or his flat, but they will normally take the girls to the park or to a local woodland area so they can have a run around. His mother does stay with them throughout the visit - she doesn't even leave them alone with him whilst she goes to the bathroom. The problem is he has now shown he can still be aggressive in front of her, and also she is not a young person, and so my concern is that she would not be physically able to prevent him from harming them - she would simply be witness to it!

 

I do have a solicitor dealing with things, and we are due back in court soon for a review hearing. I think I will press for the contact to be decreased, and also if possible for it to take place at a contact centre

 

A few people have suggested writing things down, so I will buy a diary and document everything from now on.

[oxgirl]

Would it be worth talking to his mother face to face about it and being frank with her about her son's aggression? If you felt she was unable to intervene if anything should occur, and if she also felt the same, then maybe if she were to refuse to be involved in supervising the visits then SS would be forced to intervene and provide a SW to be present during visits instead. That way his mother might feel more comfortable and you would also feel it was more official and that the girls would be safer? I'd def. push for visits to happen at an official centre, though, where others were present.

 

~ Mel ~