discrimination?

[purplehaze]

Hello everyone

 

My son has been doing basic mechanics for the last few years and has done work experience in 2 garages. Another garage had agreed to take him for the next few months and met him and everything. Then connections went in to update there paperwork and mentioned he comes from a special school and that was it the service manager said she didnt want him because she didnt know anything about special schools. I went to visit her to discuss it and she just couldn't give me a reason when I asked what she was worried about apart from she doesnt know anything about special needs. I told her I understand the term 'special needs' can be scary and it obviously has scared her but if she had phoned me to discuss her concerns or given him a chance etc I would understand it. She also said if connections hadn't come in she wouldnt have known my son had special needs-so he would have started?????? So basically I said to her you would have said no straight away if my sons special needs were more visual. Geeze it's 2011!!!!!

 

What I need to know is this discrimination and how can I take this further!

 

Thanks

[baddad]

Hi Purplehaze -

 

I don't really know, so this is only a guess, but while defintely discriminatory I'm not sure it would be 'discrimination' in the legal sense. The fact that offering work experience is voluntary etc with no 'contract' probably provides a big enough grey area to blur the boundaries, and if you couple that with the fact that the connexions officer doesn't seem to have fully disclosed your sons details prior to the point that the service manager rejected him you'd find it difficult to apportion 'blame' anyway(?) As I say, it's only guesswork, but i hope that's helpful...

 

As to the service manager's response to your son, it certainly was discriminatory, and even if that was based more on the SM's fears of her own ability to 'cope' rather than arising from negative judgements / prejudices about your son (as appears to be the case)I can fully understand why you would want to pursue that further.

 

If I were in your situation I'd probably try to do that through a carefully constructed letter - fiorstly so that I couldn't be 'fobbed off' and secondly because in a face to face situation like that I realise the potential for my responses to become emotional rather than 'responsible', which is unlikely to help. I'd write in a non-accusatory way about how damaging negative judgements based on preconceptions (rather than using the term 'prejudices') can be for disabled people, and point to your son's previous successful placements as indications of how groundless her 'fears' might be. Giving her a full background of your sons abilities and some simple information on how his dx effects him and what that would mean at work could be very reassuring. In closing, I would ask for an opportunity for your son and her to meet so that she could assess his suitability first hand - stressing that this was not with a view to getting him the work experience opportunity (which may well have already passed), but to reassure her and help ensure that any children with special needs presented to her by connexions in the future were given the full consideration they deserved...

 

You never know, it might just swing it, and even if it didn't you'd at least know more about her levels of unreasonableness and perhaps her motivations, which, if it did turn out to be 'discrimination' rather than 'discriminatory' could be very valuable. Effectively, I guess what I'm saying is if you can make a positive from a negative it's in everybody's interests to do so, and if you can't you want to at least show the SM how reasonable people should behave.

 

HTH

 

L&P

 

BD

[Kathryn]

Splitting hairs BD - something which is "discriminatory" must surely also be "discrimination" - I'm not sure I get the distinction you're making - the law doesn't.

 

The manager did know about his disability at the point of rejecting him - it was the reason for rejecting him, so that excuse can't be used.

 

If she persisted in rejecting him you possibly would have a clear case for DD, purplehaze. A bit tricky, however, as the garage are not an employer, neither are they an education provider and I'm not sure you could hold the school or Connexions responsible for the garage's actions as there's no contractual obligation. I couldn't find anything on the EHRC website specifically relating to this situation but you could always ring them to clarify.

 

It's obviously upsetting and I can understand that you're furious - I would be too if it was my child. I'd agree with Baddad though that it might be helpful to try and dispel her prejudice rather than go in with guns blazing. Perhaps the Connexions worker could do her job a bit more thoroughly this time and go back and talk to the manager about your son and the school so she knows exactly what to expect?

 

If there's really no way forward, and the garage persist in rejecting him, you could write a letter of complaint and take it from there. Asking them for written reasons as to why they've made this decision might embarrass them into an about turn - if that's what you want.

 

You could also seek advice about pursuing a claim under the EQA but that might be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. DDA/EQA cases are not easy to pursue and may be more stress than it's worth if the best you are likely to get is an apology. It may be easier just to find another garage which is more accommodating.

 

K x

[baddad]

Splitting hairs BD - something which is "discriminatory" must surely also be "discrimination" - I'm not sure I get the distinction you're making - the law doesn't.

 

A bit tricky, however, as the garage are not an employer, neither are they an education provider and I'm not sure you could hold the school or Connexions responsible for the garage's actions as there's no contractual obligation.

 

You've sort of answered your own question there. Not so much 'splitting hairs' as making the point that a personal prejudice is not necessarily the same thing as a legal definition.

 

L&P

 

BD

[purplehaze]

Thanks guys

 

I would never let my son go back there even if they said sorry & fortunately the school have asked the first garage he went to last year to have him again and they have said yes-so good news.

 

I still can't get it out of my head though-so I'm going to see if I can take it further????

 

I have also been looking and your right by saying about if it would come under education or employment-so I have e-mailed a few people to find out if there is anything I could do????

 

I don't want to get he lady in trouble but I feel I just have to do something because I feel like if no one stood up and said this is wrong then things like this will always deffinately happen-IYKWIM.

 

Thanks for your comments they have been very helpful xxx

[cmuir]

Hi

 

I can completely understand how you must be feeling, and I too would be tempted to 'do something'. Over the years, in a number of situations, I've learnt to give myself a cooling off period and try and think things through (I'm in no way suggesting you have or have't done that), and have learnt subtle but effective tactics which often shame other people whose ignorance has caused the situation to arise. That said, I've also learnt that some people can genuinely be interested and willing to learn about ASDs in order to overcome their ignorance, however, some people don't want to know and simply don't care (in which case, they're not worth the energy!). It sounds like a case of discrimination which is based upon a lack of knowledge rather than anything else. I know that you've said you're not prepared for your son to go there, but it might of been worth negotiating a short trial with supervision/support from an external agency or someone knowledgeable of your son and ASD/s. Or, alternatively another way around it maybe to put together a pack from NAS containining leaflets on ASDs, which not just detail issues, but mainly focus on what that person could bring to an employer (i.e. highly intelligent, dedicated, perfectionism, structure, adhere to rules, etc.). I think Kathyrn has also given some good advice about writing to them asking for written reasons.

 

Best wishes.

 

Caroline.

Edited May 7, 2011 by cmuir

[Kathryn]

You've sort of answered your own question there. Not so much 'splitting hairs' as making the point that a personal prejudice is not necessarily the same thing as a legal definition.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

No - but the issue is about more than just personal prejudice. The prejudice led to an act of discrimination - i.e. treating someone less favourably for a reason related to their disability - that's how the law defines it. The manager did not let him work at the garage because he is disabled - no other reason. Would she have let someone work at the garage who had the same qualifications/experience and was not disabled? Very likely - as she was happy to accept him at first. Therefore it appears from what the OP says that it is a case of direct discrimination (assuming her son meets the criteria for disability under the law - which he would if he has AS).

 

Easy to show that there was discrimination - less easy to decide which body is responsible - that's the point I was making.

 

Found a bit about work experience and disability on the EHRC site:

 

If you are doing work experience, it is up to the employer who gives you a placement to ensure that they treat you fairly and in a non-discriminatory manner. Employers must also do a health and safety risk assessment before work placement students go onsite.

 

If you think you are not being treated fairly, as a first step you should talk to the teacher who arranged your work experience placement.

 

Not the same situation obviously, but it does suggest that employers are not exempt from equality duties towards work experience students.

 

I agree with BD and Caroline that the softly softly approach might be better for someone whose prejudices arise from assumptions about stereotypes rather than deply held convictions. When it comes to changing people's prejudices, the law is a bit of a blunt instrument.

 

Purplehaze, I hope your son has a good experience at the other garage and enjoys his time there.

 

K x

Edited May 7, 2011 by Kathryn

[Sally44]

I don't know whether it would be worth pursuing, but it is worth finding out about.

 

Have you got a letter from this employer or connections for the reason they accepted and then refused the placement? If you haven't, then I would write a letter to them stating that fact ie - On xxxxx my son was offered a work experience placement at xxxxx. When the employer became aware that my son attended a special school that placement offer was immediately withdrawn - and see what response you get. As they could turn round and say they withdrew the placement for various reasons.

 

It is horrible to come across these things because it shows that alot of people are plain ignorant. But at the same time, that is what alot of people are like, and being forewarned/forearmed is better so that you know your rights for the next time.

 

If this company has a Head Office, it would be worth writing to them (when you have your info and evidence to hand). It would also be worth questioning connections about this as being discriminatory (when you have your info and evidence).

[purplehaze]

Kathryn thank you for looking and finding that piece about work experience and I agree her prejudice led to an act of discrimination-direct discrimination-and she knew it once I had explained it was the same as turning a black person away.

 

Although-yes I was upset and angry-I handled it very well and even told her that I understood how it could be scary if you don't understand anything about special needs-however, it's wrong!!! The company need to know this as well as the lady! They should take responsibility!

 

Sally that's exactly what I'm going to do-contact the head office etc!

 

Thanks for all the comments-I do really appreciate them and it helps to hear it from someone that isn't involved

[matzoball]

Hi there - haven't read the other posts but I am going to jump in here.

 

They have broken the law. This means they are culpable under it. Denying your son a position because of where he was educated and by extension his disability clearly shows they were not willing to make any sort of reasonable adjustment, or even give him a chance. Connections should have not even informed them he was from a 'special school' this is breaching your sons privacy.

 

You need to get times and dates(when connections informed this place where your son was educated, when the offer was recinded, when the person gave the reasons etc). Then approach a lawyer - if you can't afford a lawyer legal aid should be made available to you (i am not saying you can't afford it - just covering all bases!!).

 

You definitely have a clear case here and they shouldn't get away with it - shame on them!!

[purplehaze]

Thanks Matzoball, this is how I feel about it really-I'm going to go to the CAB Friday when I'm not at work and see what they said really. I will also contact connections and see what they say.

 

Thanks for the advice

[zenemu]

Hello everyone

 

My son has been doing basic mechanics for the last few years and has done work experience in 2 garages. Another garage had agreed to take him for the next few months and met him and everything. Then connections went in to update there paperwork and mentioned he comes from a special school and that was it the service manager said she didnt want him because she didnt know anything about special schools. I went to visit her to discuss it and she just couldn't give me a reason when I asked what she was worried about apart from she doesnt know anything about special needs. I told her I understand the term 'special needs' can be scary and it obviously has scared her but if she had phoned me to discuss her concerns or given him a chance etc I would understand it. She also said if connections hadn't come in she wouldnt have known my son had special needs-so he would have started?????? So basically I said to her you would have said no straight away if my sons special needs were more visual. Geeze it's 2011!!!!!

 

What I need to know is this discrimination and how can I take this further!

 

Thanks

 

Hi,

 

 

You need to get in touch with the Equalities & Human Rights Commission and you need to do so as quickly as possible - http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/ you can find them at and they will give you free advice on how to proceed. Your son is protected under the Equality Act 2010 and under the act one of the Protected Characteristics is the perception of disability.

 

In this case it seems that this company has blatantly refused to either employ or train your son purely on the basis of having a disability, which is in contravenes The Equality Act 2010 (more info).

[purplehaze]

Hi everyone, just thought I would up date hat was happening!!!

 

The solicitor has told me this is direct discrimination and I have a case but for these kind of cases-legal aid is rare so I would have to pay for a solicitor or represent myself!!! Does anyone know of anyone that has represented themself during a case like this?????

[matzoball]

If you meet the criteria for Legal Aid, then there is certainly no reason you can't apply for it. Most solicitors subscribe to it - so it's worth a try at least! When I tried to sue my old employers, the solicitor that I took the case to also said pretty much the same thing - I think sometimes they don't want to get caught up in something that seems a bit difficult.

 

http://legalaidcalculator.justice.gov.uk/calculators/eligiCalc;jsessionid=8A08AD2B3CD07163413E0A1F0A756A44?execution=e1s1

 

this will tell you if you can get it or not!

 

hope this helps!

[philipo]

If you meet the criteria for Legal Aid, then there is certainly no reason you can't apply for it. Most solicitors subscribe to it - so it's worth a try at least! When I tried to sue my old employers, the solicitor that I took the case to also said pretty much the same thing - I think sometimes they don't want to get caught up in something that seems a bit difficult.

 

http://legalaidcalculator.justice.gov.uk/calculators/eligiCalc;jsessionid=8A08AD2B3CD07163413E0A1F0A756A44?execution=e1s1

 

this will tell you if you can get it or not!

 

hope this helps!

 

 

Generally if there's no money changing hands and no legal 'contract' discrimination seems ok for employers and educational establishments.i've even known employers use the 'were not insured for that' excuse.The biggest loser is the garage as I've found that asd with mechanical skills usually means over time a multiskilled mechanic ,able to understand electricity and computers as well as being capable of bodywork and 'customising' veichles,these mechanical types are like hens teeth.If it was me I'd tell the garage to reconsider or I'd go to the press and leaflet the local careers office and EVERY local school head and further education establishment.

[purplehaze]

Thanks for the advice guys

Good news the solicitors have said they will take on the case as a no win no fee case as they think it is a good case!!!