A Rough Time after 5 months

[Forgetmenot]

My child responds badly to simple requests.My child becomes enraged and loses focus,they trash the living area of the home, spit, punch, kick and lose all sense of themselves. They shout and scream uncontrollably things that don't make sense.

 

I have often commented to people its like watching a switch in personality,docile to aggressive in seconds. My child comments that they cannot 'help' the things they do and at times they have felt guilty and commented that they wish they 'had not been born' and that they 'want to leave so that they don't hurt' me.

 

At a time I was able to engage their attention I whispered to them in a very light voice and then they calmed down.

 

Im not exaggerating when I say it was like looking at asbo type behaviour. My child is 7 is very intelligent but has speech delay. They are big in character and full of life and energy and very happy.

 

Im concerned about the quick mood changes.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Forgetmenot

[baddad]

My child responds badly to simple requests.My child becomes enraged and loses focus,they trash the living area of the home, spit, punch, kick and lose all sense of themselves. They shout and scream uncontrollably things that don't make sense.

 

I have often commented to people its like watching a switch in personality,docile to aggressive in seconds. My child comments that they cannot 'help' the things they do and at times they have felt guilty and commented that they wish they 'had not been born' and that they 'want to leave so that they don't hurt' me.

 

At a time I was able to engage their attention I whispered to them in a very light voice and then they calmed down.

 

Im not exaggerating when I say it was like looking at asbo type behaviour. My child is 7 is very intelligent but has speech delay. They are big in character and full of life and energy and very happy.

 

Im concerned about the quick mood changes.

 

What do you do when they do this, other than letting them do it until you are 'able to engage their attention with whispers' (which by definition sounds like they've already finished the trashing and thrashing otherwise you wouldn't be able to 'engage them' with whispers)? A child commenting that they 'can't help it' 'wish they hadn't been born' etc is in no way evidence that they can't help it or wish they had never been born... it is more likely to be the empty kind of reassurance that (i.e.) abusive husbands offer to abused wives because they know it brings forgiveness and reward. It is an entirely predictable response that reinforces and normalises the abuse and salves the conscience of the abuser.

 

Your home dynamic - in this respect at least - sounds as though it is entirely turned on its head with your child controlling your behaviour rather than the other way around. You are accepting that behaviour and even finding ways to justify it ('it is like a switch') and absolve yourself and your child of responsibility for dealing with it. Waiting for him/her to calm down to the point that he/she can listen to your whispered reassurances is not dealing with the behaviour it is a process that firstly ignores it and then rewards it with attention. Those responses, quite naturally, act as reinforcers for what have already become established as very successful controlling behaviours.

 

If your child responds badly to simple requests then you need to respond consistently to those 'bad' reactions with consequences that do not reward the bad behaviours. IMO you need to do that now, because if you look for and find other excuses that prolong you taking decisive action (which is what I suspect you're actually looking for - a suggestion maybe that he/she might have ODD or something like that which will absolve you both of responsibility even further) you are likely to end up with an abusive seventeen year old rather than an abusive seven year old.

 

Sorry, that's probably not the answer you were looking for, but it is offered as genuine advice and to help. I could offer loads of strategies and practical advice, but unless you accept that your child almost certainly can behave differently rather than seeking confirmation that he/she can't it would be pointless to do so...

 

You will get other opinions from others here, I'm sure, and of course I don't know your child from Adam/Eve, but for what it's worth even without knowing him/her I'd be 99% confident in saying that if you do take control of the situation the future can be better for both of you.

 

HTH

 

L&P

 

BD

[Forgetmenot]

Yes I understand what you are saying. Thank you for reminding me that diverse families are not always appreciated and that child behavioural difficulties cause prejudiced misconceptions within the community.

 

I find that I am very consistent with my child and have boundaries, and I thank the close people around me who know me well for commenting on my parenting ability.

 

I know my child very well, and I know their difficulties. I also know that my child's reactions can not always be 'controlled' Which I believe is the word you used.

 

Any advice you have please use it upon yourself to improve your own social skills before you impose judgement on my child's.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Forgetmenot

[Forgetmenot]

If you'd like to upbraid someone I could suggest the father of my child who has never exorcised his parental responsibility or cared for his child's welfare , behaviour or learning.

 

I'm pleased to say that for my child's seven years I have gone above and beyond the call of duty.

[KezT]

Im concerned about the quick mood changes.

 

Have you raised your concerns wth any professionals? ie:Teachers/school, doctor, S&LT (you say they have speech delay) etc?

 

Do they exhibit this behavour only with you, or when with others - ie: at school, grandparents etc

 

Have the behaviours always been in evidence or is this a relatively new phenonenom?

 

As Baddad said, the most lkely reason for any behavioural issues is parenting. That is not to say that you are a bad parent, just that the techniques you ae using are not suitable for the situations you are using them in! If you are looking for a forum based dx, then of course, your child exhibits the behaviours for any number of ASD diagnosis. However, they also exibhit the bahaviours of a severely abused child. Or a psychotic one. Forum diagnosis are not very practical really I would suggest you seek professional advice - your doctor/paediatrician or your child's school can refer them for further assessments.

 

I know my child very well, and I know their difficulties. I also know that my child's reactions can not always be 'controlled' Which I believe is the word you used.

 

Rubbish! Almost all behaviours can be controlled to some extent. Children with neurological conditions often find it more difficult to control their emotions, but they CAN do so. By 7 years old, they should be learning that "I can't help it" is not acceptable as an excuse for bad behaviour. Your child is obviously quite capable of understanbding right from wrong, and therefore is capable of acting upon that knowledge if they wish to!

 

If you'd like to upbraid someone I could suggest the father of my child who has never exorcised his parental responsibility or cared for his child's welfare , behaviour or learning.

 

I'm pleased to say that for my child's seven years I have gone above and beyond the call of duty.

 

I have to say that comments such as this demonstrate quite the opposite of what your were intending Laying the "blame" for bad behaviours at an absent father's door is just proving BDs point about you looking for absolution from responsibility for that behaviour, and IMO, there is no such thing as "above and beyond" for a 7 year old - such aggressive self defence would immediately rase concerns with any professionals you deal with.

 

My advice would be to seek professional advice & support - the school would be a good starting point. But remember, the majority of badly bahaved children act that way due to problems at home and that is the first thing any professionals will look at. Almost everyone here has had to have poor parenting/child abuse/neglect ruled out before getting an ASD DX

Edited June 25, 2011 by KezT

[bid]

Hi Forgetmenot,

 

What consequences do you give your child when they behave as you describe?

 

Whatever difficulties/diagnosis a child has, the fundamental approach is always to have clear consequences that really mean something to the child and firm boundaries when it comes to behavioural issues.

 

(There is also no need to be rude to BD.)

 

Bid

Edited June 25, 2011 by bid

[hick76]

Hi,

Im totally with you, this is a mirror of my seven year old Daughters Behaviour (you are not alone.) To be told it may be bad parenting is upsetting when you try your hardest and love your child dearly. Please seek proffessional advice to help with strategies for both you and your child. In the mean time take care of yourself, you need to be 100 percent to cope.

Emma xx

[NickyB]

My child responds badly to simple requests.My child becomes enraged and loses focus,they trash the living area of the home, spit, punch, kick and lose all sense of themselves. They shout and scream uncontrollably things that don't make sense.

 

I have often commented to people its like watching a switch in personality,docile to aggressive in seconds. My child comments that they cannot 'help' the things they do and at times they have felt guilty and commented that they wish they 'had not been born' and that they 'want to leave so that they don't hurt' me.

 

At a time I was able to engage their attention I whispered to them in a very light voice and then they calmed down.

 

Im not exaggerating when I say it was like looking at asbo type behaviour. My child is 7 is very intelligent but has speech delay. They are big in character and full of life and energy and very happy.

 

Im concerned about the quick mood changes.

 

Hello forgetmenot

 

I was in the same situation a few years ago with my son. He would hit, spit, kick and throw things, and as you say, his mood could change within seconds. It felt like he was totally in control of our family life.

We came to the point where we realised that we had to regain control of the situation. We put firm sanctions in place for unacceptable behaviour. In his case he would have to sit on the stairs until told he could move (he really hated this as it was so boring). The first time we did this, he was very defiant and violent, and it took two hours to get him to sit down for five minutes. Over the following few weeks, the time it took got less and less. It was a horrendous time and it felt like it was never going to end. However, he is now fully aware of the consequences of his behaviour. We still use the same sanction if needs be, but it's very rare now.

I know some people will think that we were cruel, but we now have a happy, confident, better behaved son who is much more in control of his emotions and behaviour. I'm not saying that we are perfect parents and that we haven't made many mistakes on the way, but it does feel like our family life has a better balance.

 

I'm not suggesting for a moment that this would work for you or that you don't already do something along those lines, but perhaps you need some support to find some stategies that will work for you and your son.

It may me worth talking to the school, as it helps if you approach things in the same way at home and at school. Consisitency is absolutley vital.

 

I hope you don't think that I'm judging you at all - after all I don't know you. I just hope it might help to hear from someone who has 'been there, done that' and come through the other side.

 

If you'd like to upbraid someone I could suggest the father of my child who has never exorcised his parental responsibility or cared for his child's welfare , behaviour or learning.

 

I guess we could spend hours blaming many things for our children's problems (fate, family, environment, the MMR jab etc.), but in the end it gets us nowhere. Whatever the possible causes, it doesn't alter the reality of the situation and the fact that there's no easy answer.

 

I really hope you can find a way forward very soon. All the best.

 

Nicky x

[JsMum]

Hi Forgetmenot

 

My son has 1-1 at school because of the switch, he is very unpredictable and though happy one minuet angry and anxious the next my son finds simple tasks very difficult usally because that task might entail a change or a transition so Please put on your shoes, he understands he is going out and gets anxious outdoors, J didnt tidy his room because he knew his sanction would be he wasnt allowed out to his social activity and he didnt want to go.

 

Look at the tasks, what are they, break them down, give warnings, use social stories to help prepare your son for daily tasks, use visual time tables and colour coded symboled calanders to help him get use to tasks and changes.

 

Remove objects and likely furniture that could harm when he is angry, aggressive and disruptive.

 

Definately have a discussion with school to see if there is a change of instant mood change, my son has Depression and Anxiety and he has also been recently labeld with Conduct Disorder, Oppositional Defiant Disorder is a milder form in children under 10. There are parental courses for children with ODD so get intouch with YOUNG MINDS who will be able to locate a local NHS ODD parent group, these courses are for under 10s.

 

Look at Anger Management tools, books aimed at children, look at stress relaase techneques and maybe have a list on the wall visually of ways he can manage his anger more safely, Anger is an emotion and something we all get at times but its the way we deal with it that matters.

 

Ask the school if there is any emotional litracy classes, self esteem because low self esteem will cause the anger and violence to increase.

 

What your son clearly needs is help and support and you need additional support to help manage his distressing behaviour.

 

Relate are a councilling service that may be of some benefit due to your feelings about your sons Dad which has obvously left you raw with anger too, so recommend looking at what Relate have to offer, I did thier Moving On course very powering.

 

If your son has ASD there are also the courses for ASD too.

 

I once video recorded J without him knowing and showed it to his GP, Psychiatrist and Headteacher and I got support from them.

 

JsMumx

[baddad]

Hi again forget-me-not -

 

I'm sorry you felt I was 'judging you'. I wasn't, but it is an accusation I'm used to as it is generally the first line of defense of people living within the type of dynamic you describe when they do not get the feedback they anticipated. If you talk to professionals they are more used to navigating round this, and will quite often 'feed-in' to reinforcing all the negatives that cause the problem in the first place - especially those professionals who have books or theories or interventions to sell, but many of the mainstream ones too - but on a forum like this you're likely to encounter people like me who will make some adjustments for the sake of politeness but ultimately offer the advice they think will be most helpful. And I do think the advice I've offered is the most helpful. I would include 'close friends' in that too, because I suspect any close friend who told you anything other than what you wanted to hear regarding parenting would quickly cease to be a close friend. It is also entirely possible that the pre-requisite of a close friend for you, consciously or unconsciously, is someone who will reinforce your existing beliefs, and/or that when they do offer advice you, consciously or unconsciously, demonstrate selective hearing regarding the parameters of that advice

 

I have not called you - or anyone else - a 'bad' parent, and do not equate ineffective behavioural management with 'badness', or indeed deny for a moment that I have sometimes been ineffective in the past in managing my own child's behaviours. 'Loving' your child is no guarantee of getting things 100% right, nor is 'going beyond the call of duty' if you're going in the wrong direction and reinforcing the negative behaviours. These are, I hope, things that every parent posting on these boards feels about their child and their parenting, but feeling the things a parent should feel is no indicator of effective parenting.

 

 

As I said, you will find others here who disagree with me - many, in fact - but for the most part those who have achieved the results you say you are looking for - i.e. a consistent, measurable and sustained improvement in the behaviours of their child and a happier home life - have achieved that by 'taking the bull by the horns'. There are some for whom the 'softly softly' approach has worked too, but generally this has been a much slower process, and IMO seems more often than not a case of the child developing levels of improved maturity by themselves or through the interventions and models offered them by outside agencies than the 'softly softly' approach per se. Many other children continue to abuse their immediate families and to make victims of people who for whatever reason cannot fight back (teachers, smaller children, additional carers etc), but are notably selective about when and with whom they enact such behaviours. In the latter case there are several theories 'rationalising' the behaviour, but they are, IMO, largely unconvincing.

 

I am not 'unappreciative' of diverse families, and I do not have prejudices, misconceived or otherwise, regarding children with behavioural issues. Nor was I 'upbraiding' you, though I appreciate that by offering advice that wasn't 100% reassuring regarding your child's/your own family dynamic that this may well be what is interpreted.

 

I did try to end my post last night on a positive note, and I am still 99% convinced that if you do take control of the situation your lives will improve and - more importantly - that your son's opportunities/potential will dramatically change for the better. That may happen anyway for any of the reasons I mentioned above (para. 3), but I honestly think you will get there more quickly and less painfully by engineering change rather than waiting for it to evolve spontaneously or through the influence of external agencies and factors.

 

Again, sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Forgetmenot]

Ok I've read all posts here. I stand by my opinion that I handled the situation in a calm manner that should only prove to my child to be a positive example.

 

As to BD's post I had every right to question the information that he gave me and wonder whether it was genuine advice or not.

 

 

I already understand the concept that parenting is important. I also appreciate that it is healthy to question the types of styles the parenting courses offer. Like I said I have been open to learning, I have the paediatric first aid certificates and Triple P certificates. May I also state that I was a parent who gave my child good examples by removing us from domestic abuse situations when they were a baby. May I also state that I encouraged my child to develop socially by taking them to groups , and taught them different ways of seeing the world. I also home tutored my child last year, and instead of doing the phonics, mathematics, reading in a boring setting, we went out and they enjoyed the learning a lot more and the activities I told them to do were done faster. My child also had independence and time without me.

 

I also encouraged my child through out their life to take responsibility for actions which were their doing and not other people's.

 

I should not have to prove to you my parenting or the concepts I understand to prove that I'm doing everything in my power to make sure mu child develops well mentally, emotionally and physically. But if you wish it-

 

 

* I understand that a child needs consistency boundaries and so forth. I also understand that it is not just the resident parent that has to apply consistency but non resident parent, school and other experts involved with the child.

 

*Time out is used , routine charts, reward charts.

 

* Yes my child has had similar responses in other environments.

 

*I don't believe that ALL behaviour can be changed. but I do think it's worth taking a shot at. I have had instances of success and equally if my child is too enraged instances of the strategies being made useless.

 

*I do not believe that communicating with my child after they had calmed down enough was a form of reward, simply because I know that my child was very ill at the time and needed treatment not misunderstanding. May I also state I have a tracheostomy and breathing problems so having a light voice is part of who I am.

 

*My child does respond well to some strategies and poorly with others that are demonstrated by Triple P.

 

My child does share with other children, has a big sense of humour, likes art, music , drawing and accepts responsibility and listens to requests. Don't get me wrong but there have been countless times my child has listened to me in the family home. They are in no way completely disobedient

 

Equally my child struggles emotionally. Im glad that I have recognised the times she needs more help.

 

 

Strategies are helpful but I know that my own parenting styles are also fine.

 

 

I know you have only my word for all this, but Im telling the truth. If you want to believe that my child's behaviour will all be down to myself that is up to you. But what I will say is that I am not the only person who is responsible for how my child turns out.

 

 

I can't substitute the information for something that its not.

[flappyfish]

There is a book that I came across on Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0061906190/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309006050&sr=1-1) Called 'Explosive children: a new approach...' By Ross Greene. The reviews from parents with children who sound very like yours are very good. It gives lots of practical strategies. Might be worth investing in. Hope things improve soon.

[barefoot wend]

Flappyfish

 

Thanks for that recommendation - looks a very interesting read.

 

Forgetmeknot

 

Hope the book helps you too.

[Forgetmenot]

What do you know, we have lift off!

Just show's what a difference a few hours make.

 

My child has tidied their WHOLE bedroom which they trashed last night. My calm underhand methods work!

Edited June 25, 2011 by Forgetmenot

[Forgetmenot]

Now can I just say a BIG THANKYOU to you! Flappy Fish This is helpful advice

Edited June 25, 2011 by Forgetmenot

[cmuir]

Hi

 

My son is 9 and is extremely challenging not just at home, but school and social work respite club (which SW have pulled the plug on because of kiddo's behaviour!!!). I think that some parents are very lucky in that their kids are perhaps more placid than others (that's not to say they don't have difficulties) and as a result fundamentally misunderstand how difficult it is to parent a challenging child, and so there can be a tendency to ask questions like how do you react, etc etc. (or even point the finger) - frustrating when you already discipline, are consistent, and have the certificate from various parenting programmes! The only thing you can do is keep doing what you're doing – continue to discipline, let kiddo know there are consequences, praise good behaviour, set boundaries, etc etc (which you're already doing). There are times when my son completely loses control to the point that he puts himself and others in danger (indeed, I've received calls from school, etc to collect him are a result). Whilst there are times when I've been able to intervene and make myself heard, equally there are times when restraining (now very difficult given kiddo is the same height and size as me, despite the fact he's only 9!) is possible, but sometimes I've found I've had no choice but to stand back and let kiddo get it out of his system. Afterwards he's remorseful, says he can't help it, etc etc – needless to say, kiddo sorts out of the aftermath (any mess/damage!) and there are sanctions imposed i.e. loss of xbox, etc. Interestingly a leading ASD Psychologist told me that sadly there are some kids whom despite having firm boundaries, etc, just 'don't get it' and sadly those are the few that usually benefit from residential schooling/care. I reached the stage where CAMHS are involved (again!) and it's likely that medication will be on the cards. Don't know if that's an option. Also, although my son is quite young, there are obvious physical signs that he's going through puberty, which is an added complication. Guess all I can say is hang in there and keep being consistent, etc.

 

Best wishes.

Edited June 25, 2011 by cmuir

[Forgetmenot]

Thanks for your input, its helpful to hear other people's experiences.

[baddad]

Ok I've read all posts here. I stand by my opinion that I handled the situation in a calm manner that should only prove to my child to be a positive example.

 

Hi again, forgetmenot. I'm confused as to why you feel anyone has suggested that handling the situation calmly would be anything other than a positive example? The point I - and others - made was about handling the situation effectively.

 

As to BD's post I had every right to question the information that he gave me and wonder whether it was genuine advice or not.

 

Of course you do. But the fact you don't like it doesn't make it ingenuine or wrong.

 

I already understand the concept that parenting is important. I also appreciate that it is healthy to question the types of styles the parenting courses offer. Like I said I have been open to learning, I have the paediatric first aid certificates and Triple P certificates. May I also state that I was a parent who gave my child good examples by removing us from domestic abuse situations when they were a baby. May I also state that I encouraged my child to develop socially by taking them to groups , and taught them different ways of seeing the world. I also home tutored my child last year, and instead of doing the phonics, mathematics, reading in a boring setting, we went out and they enjoyed the learning a lot more and the activities I told them to do were done faster. My child also had independence and time without me.

 

I also encouraged my child through out their life to take responsibility for actions which were their doing and not other people's.

 

I should not have to prove to you my parenting or the concepts I understand to prove that I'm doing everything in my power to make sure mu child develops well mentally, emotionally and physically. But if you wish it-

 

 

* I understand that a child needs consistency boundaries and so forth. I also understand that it is not just the resident parent that has to apply consistency but non resident parent, school and other experts involved with the child.

 

*Time out is used , routine charts, reward charts.

 

* Yes my child has had similar responses in other environments.

 

*I don't believe that ALL behaviour can be changed. but I do think it's worth taking a shot at. I have had instances of success and equally if my child is too enraged instances of the strategies being made useless.

 

*I do not believe that communicating with my child after they had calmed down enough was a form of reward, simply because I know that my child was very ill at the time and needed treatment not misunderstanding. May I also state I have a tracheostomy and breathing problems so having a light voice is part of who I am.

 

*My child does respond well to some strategies and poorly with others that are demonstrated by Triple P.

 

My child does share with other children, has a big sense of humour, likes art, music , drawing and accepts responsibility and listens to requests. Don't get me wrong but there have been countless times my child has listened to me in the family home. They are in no way completely disobedient

 

Equally my child struggles emotionally. Im glad that I have recognised the times she needs more help.

 

 

Strategies are helpful but I know that my own parenting styles are also fine.

 

 

I know you have only my word for all this, but Im telling the truth. If you want to believe that my child's behaviour will all be down to myself that is up to you. But what I will say is that I am not the only person who is responsible for how my child turns out.

 

 

I can't substitute the information for something that its not.

 

This is a difficult block of information to respond to, because however I do it may seem 'challenging'. However... I could turn on my TV practically any night of the week and watch TV programmes that began with parents making exactly the same assertions that you are. I'm not just talking about 'Supernanny' (but it is a good example), but all sorts of documentaries on all sorts of subjects ranging from inner city deprivation, selective eating, childhood crime/alcoholism/drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, the care system etc, including some such programmes that were exclusively about children with autism.

 

The question that needs to be asked is not whether I, the viewer, or Supernanny or the police or whoever believe the parents who state emphatically that their parenting styles are 'fine' and that they have consistantly and effectively applied the rigid boundaries, expectations, rewards and sanctions that have been suggested to them, but whether they themselves believe it. Almost invariably they do believe it, and almost invariably it is revealed as the programme progresses that they were wrong to believe it. Sometimes the parents end up admitting that, and the conclusion - almost invariably again - is that their children's lives, prospects and behaviours all improve, and sometimes they continue in the same vein 'in denial' of the reality that almost everyone else (other than those in similar situations and a similar phase of denial) sees and their situations generally continue to deteriorate until some external agency steps in to resolve the problems for them...

 

Seeing your latest post about your child tidying her room which you see as an indication of how succesful your behaviour management strategy is... I'm sorry, but I really can't see that as a positive, but just as part of the pattern of a cycle of ongoing abuse that is no different to an abusive husband (or wife - lets not forget that violent domestic behaviour enacted by women on men is on the increase too) apologising on Sunday morning after kicking his partner all around the house on a Saturday night because his dinner wasn't ready when he got home from the football.

 

Anyhoo. You've asked for advice and people have given it. What advice you take is entirely up to you, but chances are if you take only that advice which matches what you already do and that hasn't worked it will continue not to work. That's pure logic. Effectively, there only seem to be two people who are totally innocent of contributing to the fundamentally dysfunctional dynamic that exists in your home, and they are yourself and your child:

 

a* I understand that a child needs consistency boundaries and so forth. I also understand that it is not just the resident parent that has to apply consistency but non resident parent, school and other experts involved with the child.

Again, looked at from a purely logical perspective that really does seem, erm, illogical.

 

Either way, I hope the book flappy fish has pointed you towards has some usefuls strategies and advice, and if it does i'm sure that acting on them calmly will provide a positive example for your child. Very best with it.

 

L&P

 

BD

[KezT]

In all fairness I was not suggesting that your parenting was not effective, ust that parenting is ALWAYS the thing to look at first. Both from the parents PoV and the professionals.

 

I was fairly confident I was parenting my chld effectively (most of the time, I slip up every now and then ) but I know that we were checked by the school & social services for signs of abuse and neglect and I attended the parenting course CAMHS insisted on before taking DS on, because at the end of the day MOst behavioural probloms in children ARE due to ineffective parenting!

[Kazzen161]

The book I always recommend is "Aspergers Syndrome and Difficult Moments: practical solutions for tantrums, rage and meltdows" by B Smith Myles and J Southwick.

 

You can see it differentiates between tantrums, rage and meltdowns. Once a child is in meltdown, there is nothing you can do to stop it, but you can help them to calm down. The parenting bit comes into preventing it getting to the meltdown stage - by recognising trigger's, working out ways for them to avoid/change/cope with the triggers, teaching them chill out/calming strategies and more appropriate responses to anger/frustration/anxiety, etc.

 

It is not sufficient that she tidies up after trashing the room - you need to work out why she did it, and work out how you change that "cycle" of behaviour. If she escalates to hurting people, there will be little she can do to "make up for it" afterwards.

 

I have three children, one had very challenging behaviour and has AS, one has traits of AS, and all three need different parenting. Read what people suggest and try the things that you think might work for you and her.

[Enid]

Hi,

was just going to direct you to the "explosive child book" it has really helped me. I have a child very similar to yours, I have 3 other children who dont give me a minutes worry, I have also spent many years working with difficult children in the care system and am also a Nursery nurse,. I tell you this because even with all that experience I used to be on here night after night in despair with the behaviour of my then 12 yr old.

 

My lad can also change at the flick of a switch, and behaves the same in any situation, school/home/social. There is also the behaviour he can control of course, and there is always a consequence, and I am totaly consistant with my parenting, even so the only thing that seems to control his extreme violence and bahviour is medication.

Even with the level he is on he still exhibits such challanging behaviour and is quite frankly given his size a danger to us and also school staff etc etc I honestly dont know where its going to end.

 

 

Thats no help to you of course.

 

I have to say all the professionals I have delt with have never made me feel it was anything to do with my parenting skills, so if you hanvnt yet seeked help please do, because with the level of anger he is displaying you need some support and answers.

[Enid]

The book I always recommend is "Aspergers Syndrome and Difficult Moments: practical solutions for tantrums, rage and meltdows" by B Smith Myles and J Southwick.

 

You can see it differentiates between tantrums, rage and meltdowns. Once a child is in meltdown, there is nothing you can do to stop it, but you can help them to calm down. The parenting bit comes into preventing it getting to the meltdown stage - by recognising trigger's, working out ways for them to avoid/change/cope with the triggers, teaching them chill out/calming strategies and more appropriate responses to anger/frustration/anxiety, etc.

 

It is not sufficient that she tidies up after trashing the room - you need to work out why she did it, and work out how you change that "cycle" of behaviour. If she escalates to hurting people, there will be little she can do to "make up for it" afterwards.

 

I have three children, one had very challenging behaviour and has AS, one has traits of AS, and all three need different parenting. Read what people suggest and try the things that you think might work for you and her.

 

Also a very good book for all the reasons given above.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Enid

[Forgetmenot]

After taking on board the comments, Ive decided that it's wise to be cautious and question CAMHS claims that 'problems in children are due to ineffective parenting', because that is a very judgemental and sweeping statement to make.

 

Experts also have to question how much of their experiences are clouding their judgement when they are faced with a families issues.

 

Is it always fair to contextualise a family?

 

I believe that parenting courses are beneficial , but I do not believe that they can cure a problem that cant be cured.

 

I am a lady with breathing problems and tracheostomy who has raised a humorous deep feeling child, who has had many good experiences. I understand the misconceptions that some people can have due to my breathing problems and tracheostomy.

 

Every few months my child becomes unwell and I have proven how to deal with those issues successfully and effectively. I was so proud of them today for tidying the room they trashed yesterday. They didn't even kick up a fuss about it.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Forgetmenot

[Mumble]

I was so proud of them today for tidying the room they trashed yesterday. They didn't even kick up a fuss about it.

:wallbash: Can't you see that you're setting up the very conditions to allow and encourage the 'trashing' behaviour in the first place? You shouldn't be proud of the tidying up, you should expect it, with no emotional response. And then you should be working on the original behaviour and addressing that. The 'trashing' shouldn't be happening at all. By saying something can't be 'cured' (as in behaviour, not ASD) you are setting your child up to fail because you are allowing and excusing things by giving them the 'I can't help it' excuse.

[bid]

 

I believe that parenting courses are beneficial , but I do not believe that they can cure a problem that cant be cured.

 

 

But surely that is a very negative, disabling belief?

 

Of course, autism can't be 'cured'...but it needs a 'can do/pro-active' approach to parenting rather than an a 'can't do/can't help it' approach. That is the only way to maximise your child's full potential.

 

Bid

[Enid]

Hi, as I said, I was never sent on a course, or at no time did anyone even question that it was anything to do with my parenting skills, I never even thought about it at the time, was just so desparate for help, I rang GP. ss/ camhs anyone I could think of, with hindsight, and after reading on this forum that others had, I am surprised that I wasnt as his behaviour seemed to change overnight.

 

Anyway, go with your gut feeling, you know your child best.

 

Good luck and keep strong.

[baddad]

I believe that parenting courses are beneficial , but I do not believe that they can cure a problem that cant be cured.

 

 

I can't tell you how disturbing I find that

 

If your seven year old child is violent and aggressive and beyond any help then I guess we can't be talking about autism.

 

I do believe there are a tiny TINY minority of people for whom the term 'ODD' could be realistically applied. I don't think they will be labelled with that term, but I think the definition will fit them. I think you would find them in places like Broadmoor...

 

I genuinely believe that for most children achieving the 'ODD' diagnosis today (or PDA, or whatever floats your boat) their problems will, eventually, turn out to be 'SODD', the 'S' standing for 'selective'. I think in situations where their oppositional demands had very definite, direct and negative consequences for them they would quickly adapt in favour of self preservation.

 

I've just had a quick look at ODD, which I speculated was the possible reiforcement you were looking for in your original post, on Wikipedia. rather than listing ODD as a problem which 'can't be cured' it says that:

 

Untreated, about 52% of children with ODD, will continue to meet the DSM-IV criteria up to three years later and about half of those 52% will progress into conduct disorder.

(my italics), which suggests anything but an untreatable condition.

It goes on to say, with regard to 'psychosocial treatments':

 

One of the key factors in the development and maintenance of the negative behaviors associated with oppositional defiant disorder results is reinforcement, whether intentional or not, of the unwanted behaviors. The most effective way of treating disruptive behavior disorders is behavioral therapies.[4] Behavioral therapy for children and adolescents focuses primarily on how problematic thoughts or behaviors may accidentally get "rewarded" within a young person's environment.

 

These rewards or reinforcements often contribute to an increase in the frequency of these thoughts and behaviors. Behavior therapies can be applied to a wide range of psychological symptoms among adults, adolescents, and children. In behavioral therapy, therapists encourage children and adolescents to try new behaviors and not to allow negative "rewards" to dictate the ways in which they act. Furthermore, therapists may work with parents to discontinue ways in which they are unintentionally reinforcing negative behaviors.

 

Other approaches to the treatment of oppositional defiant disorder, include parent training programs, individual psychotherapy, family therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and social skills training.[5][6] According to the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, treatments for ODD are tailored specifically to the individual child, and different treatments are used for pre-schoolers and adolescents.[7]

 

An approach developed by Russell Barkley[8][9][10] uses a parent training model and begins by focusing on positive approaches to increase compliant behaviours

 

Absolutely none of which is in any way at odds with the suggestions and feedback I and several other posters have offered to you.

 

Of course, it is easy to dismiss Wikipedia as a source of reliable information, or to claim that your child/your circumstances are unique, and of course it is perfectly simple to reject anything you don't want to hear in favour of seeking more of what you do want to hear, and under those circumstances to hear only exactly what you do want to hear, but IMO it is totally unreasonable to talk about 'prejudices' and 'accusations' and 'judgemental people' etc when you've completely closed your mind to any observation that doesn't fit your own prejudices.

 

I really do wish you/your daughter well, and again I would say that I remain 99% certain that your child's prospects could improve dramatically if you actually take control of the situation.

 

With that, I will try to bow out of this one now, because no matter how nicely, how coherently, or how 'logically' I post I suspect it's probably a waste of virtual ink.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Forgetmenot]

Hi BID your comment is very just, maybe I should have explained better what I meant by such a comment. No my view wasn't disabling but valid. The type of tactics you gain from a parenting course are largely mind control and manipulation tactics, and you can't necessarily use those successfully unto a child with some type of spectrum disorder, because their brains are different.

 

I know the ask, say and do routines work for my child, but to minimise hyperactivity, anger and improve concentration a lot more, no I can't say Ive learnt anything on the parenting courses that have managed to help cure those issues. I have made adjustments to diet, lifestyle , mine included in order to help.

 

The lady who commented, sorry I wasn't ignoring you, It's nice to hear of other people's experiences, and Im so pleased that you managed to get the help for your child.

 

Unfortunately it's not like that for every parent, and some of us have to go through more steps.

 

Thank you :robbie:

[Kazzen161]

Does your child trash the classroom when asked to do something?

 

Some parenting techniques work better with children with ASD because they can be sticklers for rules.

 

There are no miracle cures - just a lot of hard work.

 

I was told "If you don't want your child doing this (behaviour) when they are 20, then stop it now". Once our children get into set patterns of behaviour, it can be very hard to change it.

[bid]

Hi BID your comment is very just, maybe I should have explained better what I meant by such a comment. No my view wasn't disabling but valid. The type of tactics you gain from a parenting course are largely mind control and manipulation tactics, and you can't necessarily use those successfully unto a child with some type of spectrum disorder, because their brains are different.

 

I know the ask, say and do routines work for my child, but to minimise hyperactivity, anger and improve concentration a lot more, no I can't say Ive learnt anything on the parenting courses that have managed to help cure those issues. I have made adjustments to diet, lifestyle , mine included in order to help.

 

The lady who commented, sorry I wasn't ignoring you, It's nice to hear of other people's experiences, and Im so pleased that you managed to get the help for your child.

 

Unfortunately it's not like that for every parent, and some of us have to go through more steps.

 

Thank you :robbie:

 

I don't know what else to say, Forgetmenot...

 

My son is now an adult, living independently amd working full-time, after going to a residential special school.

 

Of course, we made many mistakes as do all parents. But the advice we were given, and followed to the best of our ability, by the specialist autism team around behavioural therapy was basically what posters like BD, Kez and Kazzen are suggesting.

 

It is also exactly what we do at the residential special school where I have worked for the last 6 1/2 years. And we have young people with the most profound difficulties and challenging behaviour.

 

All I can say to you is that it works.

 

Bid

Edited June 25, 2011 by bid

[Forgetmenot]

Got some good news Ive done some research and there is learning disabilities, learning difficulties and dyslexia in the family.

 

Also one of my very young brothers , is reported to have similar attention/focus difficulties to my own child. Also one grandmother with suspected Bipolar Disorder in the past.

 

Told my child to tidy their room again today and they did it.

[baddad]

Hi again forgetmenot -

 

sorry, i did say i was going to bow out of this thread but curiosity got the better of me...

While I'd agree that your daughter tidying her room seems, on the surface, a positive, I'm not sure if that's the 'good news' or whether you meant finding out about learning difficulties and dyslexia in your family is good news?

Do you mean that now you've found out some family history you feel you've found a justification and excuse for your daughters aggressive, unreasonable and abusive behaviours? If so, I think you really have got some dark days ahead of you.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited June 27, 2011 by baddad