people with autism are a untapped resource in IT.

[sesley]

http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/jobs/2011/07/04/autistic-workers-are-untapped-talent-for-it-experts-say-40093296/

 

 

 

something the hackers have been trying to tell them. Computers show no emtions,with no confusing expressions or jokes,just rules on operating by reading and following instructions.Why don't business's recognise the amazing talents that can be made very useful and beneficial for all of us.They do suggest that Bill Gates is on the spectrum and look what he invented.

[bid]

Umm, well I think historically they have probably always been a significant group.

 

I'm sure I've read that Silicon Valley has a higher than average percentage of people with AS or some-such. And my brother always said the back-room uber-techie research and development guys in the navy were definitely spectrumy...

 

To be completely honest, the recent stories about hackers certainly raise various points about (retrospective) dx's of AS, just not this one IMO...

 

Bid

[baddad]

yep, agree with bid's post - I don't think it is helpful in any way to confuse computer hackers with 'an untapped resource in IT' or associate them with AS, or even to talk in general terms about 'amazing talents'...

 

Many computer hackers, in fact, are dimwits who have few skills other than to know where to download self assembly 'kits' of code which they are then daft enough to use online in ways that leave them wide open to getting caught... It's like saying housewives are an untapped resource in design and technology because they can assemble flat pack furniture from IKEA!

 

Which is not to say, of course, that some computer hackers aren't pretty amazing programmers, because the ones who don't get caught and make the kits that the ones who do get caught stupidly download probably are... and it's also true that some autistic people will find a niche in both those camps, and probably, as the silicon valley statistics bear out in higher than average numbers compared to 'NT's' (they also employ a much higher than average percentage of Asians there too, as that kind of thinking seems to be a strength of a higher than average percentage of Asian people), but I think in real terms pigeonholes is pigeonholes, and like all predefined 'holes' they undoubtedly keep out (disenfranchise) more pigeons than they let through...

 

Also confused by the terminology of this, because it says 'experts say', but the only person saying it seems to be one company boss who has a vested interest in saying it, because it's part of his company's sales pitch! And again, I'm not saying he's wrong - I'm just questioning the validity of his authority as an 'expert', and/or as an unbiased one if in fact expert he turns out to be!

 

L&P

 

BD

[sesley]

the point is its a positive about autism,there has and is so much negativity around autism the positives get over looked. I know we are all different human beings with different talents,but its flagging up the valid importance of autism in human society. With the scarey stories of pre natal testing for the autism gene and american societys looking for cures for autism they are all missing a very improtant part and that is autism has created and achived so much human developements in arts, and the sciences and if business's are saying autism has a place in their world its got to be good for our young people who will be looking to be employed when they leave school /uni etc.

[trekster]

Thanks for posting this Selsey,

 

Was wondering where I could get technical support (people who repair PCs) type experience?

I've only worked with PCs not much with Macs and donthave windows server experience.

At college 10 years ago I did user support as a module for my AVCE in ICT.

 

Good idea,

 

Alexis

[baddad]

the point is its a positive about autism,there has and is so much negativity around autism the positives get over looked. I know we are all different human beings with different talents,but its flagging up the valid importance of autism in human society. With the scarey stories of pre natal testing for the autism gene and american societys looking for cures for autism they are all missing a very improtant part and that is autism has created and achived so much human developements in arts, and the sciences and if business's are saying autism has a place in their world its got to be good for our young people who will be looking to be employed when they leave school /uni etc.

 

Nothing wrong with positives, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression... just I thought associating computer hackers with ASD's or even with this article had some negative connotations - as does an article claiming a level of expertise for someone who's possibly not got it.

 

L&P

 

BD

[matzoball]

I work for Thorkil.

 

Specialisterne recognize the fact that people on the spectrum (not all) are essentially an untapped resource(quoting the article) because mainstream society more or less deems us unemployable - we are all qualified software testers but aren't limited to that one field of IT. I myself have developed project management and team leader skills(i wouldn't have been saying that this time last year), others in my team web development and information architecture. Combined we have several computing related degrees, design experience, programming experience and media experience. All of us have found the working world a difficult one to inhabit, and our company allows us to be ourselves and utilize our skills and talents.

 

When I have sat down with Thorkil and Steen(one of the chairmen), it has never been about the money(well of course that factors into it as Specialisterne is a business!), the conversations have always been about ensuring that we are happy, fufilled and confident.

 

Yes I am pretty evangelical about Specialisterne, but it really has changed my life and I really believe in what Thorkil is doing - not trying to do, but actually doing!! He is getting out there and raising awareness of the company as much as he can because he knows that we are fantastic at what we do, and shouldn't be written off just because some of us have sensory issues, or social issues etc His son, who is autistic will have a job to go to if he so chooses when he is older because of all the hard work he has put in to create this amazing company.

 

So I would say that Thorkil really does know what he is talking about.

[baddad]

I work for Thorkil.

 

Specialisterne recognize the fact that people on the spectrum (not all) are essentially an untapped resource(quoting the article) because mainstream society more or less deems us unemployable - we are all qualified software testers but aren't limited to that one field of IT. I myself have developed project management and team leader skills(i wouldn't have been saying that this time last year), others in my team web development and information architecture. Combined we have several computing related degrees, design experience, programming experience and media experience. All of us have found the working world a difficult one to inhabit, and our company allows us to be ourselves and utilize our skills and talents.

 

When I have sat down with Thorkil and Steen(one of the chairmen), it has never been about the money(well of course that factors into it as Specialisterne is a business!), the conversations have always been about ensuring that we are happy, fufilled and confident.

 

Yes I am pretty evangelical about Specialisterne, but it really has changed my life and I really believe in what Thorkil is doing - not trying to do, but actually doing!! He is getting out there and raising awareness of the company as much as he can because he knows that we are fantastic at what we do, and shouldn't be written off just because some of us have sensory issues, or social issues etc His son, who is autistic will have a job to go to if he so chooses when he is older because of all the hard work he has put in to create this amazing company.

 

So I would say that Thorkil really does know what he is talking about.

 

Hi matzoball - again, I made no judgement about anyone knowing or not knowing what they are talking about, I only highlighted that the term 'according to experts' was used in the article, and questioned the level of authority that implied, and whether implying that level of authority was appropriate or even accurate...

Think of it this way - I consider myself very knowledgable on disability issues, ranging from the practical care needs of disabled people through things like the 'politics' of disability,media representation of disability and the social 'context' of disability. I've gained that knowledge in a wide variety of ways - through academic study, my professional work and personal experience etc - but whatever my own feelings about my level of expertise would it be appropriate for an article to be written that cited me directly as 'an expert' or to associate me with other experts who might have specific qualifications or professional status that made it appropriate to refer to them as experts?

 

Without wanting to challenge you directly, I would also disagree with the generalisation that mainstream society more or less deems autistic people unemployable - or at least that it does so purely on the basis of autism... I think maybe the confusion arises around only one aspect of autism, which is that 'woolly' HFA/AS end of the spectrum that's occurred in recent years and identifies all sorts of personality traits or features or behaviours as 'symptoms' of AS that really, in terms of the diagnostic criteria, have little to do with autism but have become synonyomous with certain AS stereotypes.

 

Believe me, I'm not arguing that autistic people might not find it hard to find work, or that aspects of their autism might not impact directly on their work opportunities - as all disabilities do - but that's not what's being discussed here and highlighting a tiny proportion of HFA's or people with Aspergers who might be 'IT assets' is at best cherry-picking and at worst a potentially damning double standard. And if Thorkil and/or Steen are the experts the article suggests they will be able to see exactly why those are legitimate concerns, because they will be looking beyond the walls of their own business and their vested interest in it to look at the bigger picture and the vast majority of the autistic community represented by that bigger picture than the very narrow definition they have allowed this article to represent.

 

Hope that makes sense, and that you won't feel there's any personal challenge involved in my posts in this thread.

 

L&P

 

BD

[matzoball]

There are lots of these articles quoting Thorkil floating about the internet, they are generally treated as puff pieces(imo) by what ever journalist has written them.

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/business/corporate-sme/industry-urged-to-use-the-skills-of-autism-sufferers-1.1076157

 

I am pictured in this article, and on the whole it's not a bad piece - but use of the word 'sufferers' actually grated on me because as far as I am concerned - I am autistic, and I don't suffer. But it illustrates the point I am trying to make albeit not that clearly.

 

We try to vet every piece of media coverage we get - but as the article title proves, we can't always control the final copy.

 

So while in my opinion Thorkil is an expert, he may not necessarily see himself as such - and it's worth keeping in mind that at the end of the day a journalist chose to use that word, not him.

[baddad]

As I said, not making any 'judgement' whatsoever - just pointing out a few facts. Let's hope that 1.1 million funding grant turns out to be money well spent, and that it proves a positive for autistic people generally rather than just for the 12 people in training at the moment.

 

L&P

 

BD

[darkshine]

the point is its a positive about autism,there has and is so much negativity around autism the positives get over looked. I know we are all different human beings with different talents,but its flagging up the valid importance of autism in human society. With the scarey stories of pre natal testing for the autism gene and american societys looking for cures for autism they are all missing a very improtant part and that is autism has created and achived so much human developements in arts, and the sciences and if business's are saying autism has a place in their world its got to be good for our young people who will be looking to be employed when they leave school /uni etc.

[darkshine]

the point is its a positive about autism,there has and is so much negativity around autism the positives get over looked. I know we are all different human beings with different talents,but its flagging up the valid importance of autism in human society. With the scarey stories of pre natal testing for the autism gene and american societys looking for cures for autism they are all missing a very improtant part and that is autism has created and achived so much human developements in arts, and the sciences and if business's are saying autism has a place in their world its got to be good for our young people who will be looking to be employed when they leave school /uni etc.

 

Hi, I'm still at a point in life where I don't fully know what I think... Sure it's good if these people are creating these opportunities, but not all autistic people are I.T minded, and I do wonder if this is buying into stereotypes at all.

 

I didn't like the use of the word "them" in the article either, because it suggests everyone is the same.

 

Having said that, I do think positives may be overlooked - but as for the valid importance of autism in human society - well, I'm not sure about how that works

 

I might be lynched for saying this but what the hell...

It seems like there's a huge window for companies to use people with hfa/as as robots, because they may be seen as predictable little robots that will sit and do the same task over and over, and reinforce stereotypes.

The statement about a huge untapped pool of resources" concerns me as I wonder if there is a risk of exploitation from other companies who may not take this extra time, care and management as the one in the article is claiming to do.

 

Just noticed my accidental blank post above - duh

Edited July 6, 2011 by darkshine

[matzoball]

As I said, not making any 'judgement' whatsoever - just pointing out a few facts. Let's hope that 1.1 million funding grant turns out to be money well spent, and that it proves a positive for autistic people generally rather than just for the 12 people in training at the moment.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Didn't say you were judging! Just clarifying my side of things

 

They are the only company that does this in Britain, with plans to expand. The ultimate aim is to become an established name in the UK in the IT industry - but right now they have to be realistic and try and achieve this with small steps initially. What people don't know is how hard our Operations manager and several others had to fight to get this money in the first place - it's been 2 years in the making before they even opened their doors to the first 12 trainees.

 

The trainees(me being one) who went on to full time employment are very aware how important this endeavour is. With that in mind we are all working very hard and very dilligently to make this a success so that as you say it proves a positive for autistic people in general not just us. Branches of Specialisterne are starting to open all over the world, and I think that given the right support that it will be a success and really bring about change for the better.

[matzoball]

Hi, I'm still at a point in life where I don't fully know what I think... Sure it's good if these people are creating these opportunities, but not all autistic people are I.T minded, and I do wonder if this is buying into stereotypes at all.

 

I didn't like the use of the word "them" in the article either, because it suggests everyone is the same.

 

Having said that, I do think positives may be overlooked - but as for the valid importance of autism in human society - well, I'm not sure about how that works

 

I might be lynched for saying this but what the hell...

It seems like there's a huge window for companies to use people with hfa/as as robots, because they may be seen as predictable little robots that will sit and do the same task over and over, and reinforce stereotypes.

The statement about a huge untapped pool of resources" concerns me as I wonder if there is a risk of exploitation from other companies who may not take this extra time, care and management as the one in the article is claiming to do.

 

Just noticed my accidental blank post above - duh

 

They aren't trying to buy into, or re-enforce stereotypes - I myself am not that IT minded, my talents lie in creative endeavours and of late (i am aware of the irony) people management. There is scope perhaps not at this moment in time, but certainly in the future to expand into other avenues of career skills. They just have to be given the chance to actually do it.

 

There are very few companies in the UK who actively employ people on the spectrum, and more often than not the NAS are involved, so the chance for exploitation is slim. I am not saying that it isnt a very real possibility, but I can only comment on what I know.

[darkshine]

They aren't trying to buy into, or re-enforce stereotypes - I myself am not that IT minded, my talents lie in creative endeavours and of late (i am aware of the irony) people management. There is scope perhaps not at this moment in time, but certainly in the future to expand into other avenues of career skills. They just have to be given the chance to actually do it.

 

There are very few companies in the UK who actively employ people on the spectrum, and more often than not the NAS are involved, so the chance for exploitation is slim. I am not saying that it isnt a very real possibility, but I can only comment on what I know.

Hi

 

It's just a concern (and not one particularly aimed at your employer) just that it crossed my mind about other companies in light of this.

 

I think actively employing people on the spectrum is a good thing but I didn't understand why they exclusively employ people on the spectrum (I'm sure it said they only employ people on the spectrum? Or did I misunderstand?)

 

Best

 

Darkshine

[baddad]

Hi

 

It's just a concern (and not one particularly aimed at your employer) just that it crossed my mind about other companies in light of this.

 

I think actively employing people on the spectrum is a good thing but I didn't understand why they exclusively employ people on the spectrum (I'm sure it said they only employ people on the spectrum? Or did I misunderstand?)

 

Best

 

Darkshine

 

A cynic could come up with many suggestions, I'm sure, but without being cynical I would just say that 'positive discrimination' can be a double edged sword too. At it's most positive it can help redress very unreasonable imbalances, at it's most negative it can be both patronising and disabling. Tricky set of scales to balance for any company/charity/organisation/piece of legislation, however well intended...

 

L&P

 

BD

[matzoball]

Hi

 

It's just a concern (and not one particularly aimed at your employer) just that it crossed my mind about other companies in light of this.

 

I think actively employing people on the spectrum is a good thing but I didn't understand why they exclusively employ people on the spectrum (I'm sure it said they only employ people on the spectrum? Or did I misunderstand?)

 

Best

 

Darkshine

 

I am just speculating, but I think it may be because IT is a massively competetive career field - so being exclusive gives spectrum people a fair chance - I guess it is a form of positive discrimination really! There are NT people who work at Specialisterne, but the test analyst jobs are only filled by autistic people. The manager jobs etc are not exclusively NT so there isn't any case of being excluded at the upper levels of the hierarchy.

 

I do think there should be opportunity for more social inclusion(working with NT people on a more regular basis), but I think that that will come with time when we get external contracts. One of our guys is away working on one just now and he says it's fantastic - his disability is acknowledged insofar as reasonable adjustments etc, but he is treated like one of the guys which is all any of us could ever ask for - level playing field

[darkshine]

A cynic could come up with many suggestions, I'm sure, but without being cynical I would just say that 'positive discrimination' can be a double edged sword too. At it's most positive it can help redress very unreasonable imbalances, at it's most negative it can be both patronising and disabling. Tricky set of scales to balance for any company/charity/organisation/piece of legislation, however well intended...

 

L&P

 

BD

 

That's pretty much what I was trying to say - badly maybe?

[darkshine]

I am just speculating, but I think it may be because IT is a massively competetive career field - so being exclusive gives spectrum people a fair chance - I guess it is a form of positive discrimination really! There are NT people who work at Specialisterne, but the test analyst jobs are only filled by autistic people. The manager jobs etc are not exclusively NT so there isn't any case of being excluded at the upper levels of the hierarchy.

 

I do think there should be opportunity for more social inclusion(working with NT people on a more regular basis), but I think that that will come with time when we get external contracts. One of our guys is away working on one just now and he says it's fantastic - his disability is acknowledged insofar as reasonable adjustments etc, but he is treated like one of the guys which is all any of us could ever ask for - level playing field

Yes, the things you say sound good, and there should be more things like this across the board for other people who don't apparently fit the "normal" mould (for whatever reason). I guess I'm just sceptical of other less scrupulous people out there who could see it as an opportunity to do these things for the wrong reasons.

 

I didn't mean to just go on about the negatives of your OP - just wanted to point out that its a factor to be considered.

 

The environment you are describing sounds positive so I'll leave it on that note

[Mumble]

I'd be interested in the long term outcomes for ASD people who work for this company. Is it / does it have to be a job for life and effectively becomes sheltered employment, or are the employees empowered to move on in their careers and take up similar positions successfully outside of this company?

[matzoball]

I'd be interested in the long term outcomes for ASD people who work for this company. Is it / does it have to be a job for life and effectively becomes sheltered employment, or are the employees empowered to move on in their careers and take up similar positions successfully outside of this company?

 

Well to me the aim of anyone getting a job is to have it for as long as possible! However sheltered employment is not the aim. Although gainful employment is one of the main aims - developing work and social skills is another. I will use myself as an example - mainly because I really don't like speaking for others!

 

I have paranoia and anger issues - but they are not as bad as they were when I first started. Because of Laura and Maria(managers) supporting me and helping me to challenge my negative thoughts and behaviours I don't immediately go to the 'bad place' when something happens that I can't handle. I also through their support have developed my confidence enough, that my eventual aim is to do what Laura and Maria do, but in the Berlin branch of Specialisterne whenever that opens. That is a long time down the line but I am working hard to make it a reality. I hope to become an advocate for autism in Germany, and that simply would not have happened if not for Specialisterne.

 

Moving on is something we(as the new starts) have all discussed. At the moment we all want to work really hard to ensure that Specialisterne survives the current state of the economy by bringing in contracts and raising the profile of the company so that other companies will gain confidence in us. This means that we will be able to take in more people as time goes on and expand on the 5 year initial plan - not to say that it's just going to exist for 5 years, that's just the start!

 

One thing I have noticed as time goes on, is that the other guys now talk about companies they would like to go and work for - this didn't even enter into the conversation when we all started! So my take on it is that eventually some of us will move on having been empowered as you say to advance in their chosen careers(one of us is actually already moving into politics!) and some of us will stay with the company hopefully!

[philipo]

A study of history and technology/science will reveal that most of the fundamental contributors have expressed clear autistic/aspie/asd traits.This is true of our cultural life.As the sciences and subjects have begun to be 'taught' our technological and cultural progress has slowed considerably.Without the obssesives there would be no computer code,electronic invention,new ways of understanding art.If we carry on having a generic society based on profit then we are doomed .One ability of aspies/asd is the ability to be multi skilled and to understand the crossovers of different subjects.Art for instance 'teaches' students about dali ,van Gogh ,Duchamp and hundreds of other oddballs and incorperates it into 'art theory' and art history.In fact these artists were beyond the pale when they were alive and considered non emtities and trouble makers.Its the same with technology.There have been no fundamental inventions for over 50 years and computers ,cars and nearly everything else is just a variation on an OLD invention.Look at the 'traits' and read your history ,I beleive as a civilisation we are heading for banality and extintion,languauge is abused constantly ,Its considerd an auty 'fault' that we take words literally .Geeks and other social misfits are tolerated by 'normal' society as long as they keep being dynamic and pulling cultural and technological rabbits out of hats,when they can't they are considerd menatlly suspect an 'anti social'.The real mental cases are the ones who drive 4 x 4's and waffle o about green technologies and holistic medicine while looking the other way while their goverments kill johny foreigners to steal their oil and mineral wealth while having very little understanding of the technical and mechanical,unable to comprehend that their I pads and touch screen mobiles are only possible through the slaughter of the people of Congo and elsewhere.Specialism is for insects.

 

From the days of frankenstien to the present day there has always bben a cultural expression of the fear of humans becoming creatures of science,like cyborgs.While many are scanning the skies for UFO's for an alien invasion the reality is in front of us, we have become slaves to our own machines,this is the real world of robots,we are the robots,non thinking simple creatures manipulated by simple logic.

Edited July 9, 2011 by philipo

[Mumble]

There have been no fundamental inventions for over 50 years

• Moon landing
  
• Internet
  
• Heart bypass surgery
  
• Plethora of life-saving drugs and treatments
  
• ecetera...
  

[matzoball]

This is kind of getting away from the point of the OP - a major company doing something positive to help people on the spectrum. It should not be seen as something to take apart, but to be built upon. I have responded to every point made on here as I am part of the company, but it's getting kind of disheartening that it's getting picked to bits.

 

The article was essentially a puff piece to get the company mentioned in the media so as to raise awareness and a bit of hope.

 

I have worked my ass off over the last 8 months, and so have the others. It might seem like it's only benefitting us right now but that is really just not the case! What we are trying to do is really important because if it works here then it means so much more for the rest of the uk. Thorkil could have chosen anywhere in the world for the first branch but he chose us because he knows that people in the UK have a strong work ethic(not to say nowhere else does) and Specialisterne would have support from the goverment and the autistic society to help make this endeavour a success. We are realistic about our goals and we understand the pressure on us - especially from the ASD community - to make this work.

 

So please support us, not denigrate us.

[Mumble]

That's quite (I think unnecessarily) defencive, Matzoball. I was merely asking what the longterm outcomes for employees might be. I think this is relevant, because:

 

a)if employees are able to move onto other companies in the same way NT employees would, then we need to look at what it being done within the company to empower its employees to do this and explore how such strategies could be used on a more widescale basis.

 

b)if employees are not able to move on but become stuck within the company (and as we don't generally have 'jobs for life' anymore this would not be 'normal') we need to look at what stops them moving - is it something within the company or is it something about employers more widely - in which case we then need to be asking more questions about social attitudes and the employment of those with ASD.

 

I'm sorry if you feel it's attacking you to be asked such questions, but as an outsider I'd say that such questions are really important, particularly if the success of such a company is to be more far reaching than within the company itself. It's not putting you or the company down to ask such questions, but an interest in how anything positive they do can be transfered to other settings to benefit more people, whilst taking into account the understanding that everyone is different and many people, myself included, would not see themselves fitting such a company and as such would have concerns about anyone saying this is the way it should be done.

[baddad]

Yoiks!

 

Hi mumble/all... obviously this is only my 'take' on it and I'm not / can't speak for anyone else who's posted but I think there's a crossed wire here?

 

I think matzoball was saying that the thread has gone somewhat off-topic with the last couple of posts about 4 x 4's and I pads and 'normals' V the autistic community and the inventions of the last fifty years or so... As we know, that can sometimes happen with threads and sometimes the diversions are interesting and sometimes individuals find them bothersome or distracting. I think that's what matzoball was posting about, rather than the questions posed in your earlier post(?)

 

Now having said that, I think also that there's a bit of confusion here about 'special listerne' as an employment model and the general observations that have been made and quite natural concerns that people might have about any 'specialist' employer who was promoting their company in an autism specific - or even 'disability' - way. And while it's great that Matzoball feels such loyalty for her employer and enjoys her work so much it doesn't necessarily mean that her 'take' is an entirely reassuring one, because just like her bosses she has a huge personal investment in it. Not suggesting anything 'mooney' about special listerne, but in terms of personal investment it's an analogy that holds water - if someone buys into and feels 'safe' and 'rewarded' etc within a certain subculture or dynamic or ideology it's very easy for them to jump to conclusions and personalise things if they think that subculture/dynamic/ideology is under threat. Matzoball, I don't think you need to 'defend' your employers because I don't think they're under 'attack', and even if they were it's not you who should feel the need to 'defend' them if the questions being asked seem legitimate - which they do - unless you're in a knowledgable enough position to answer them, which you're not. That you have accepted 'in good faith' the sales pitch of special listerne is one thing, but it neither proves (nor disproves) the motivations of the people making that pitch, or the long term practicality of the 'model' being pitched.

 

Finally, I'd just point out that the OP was about an article found online. I'm sure neither the OP, nor those initially posting replies, made any 'connection' with the company being discussed or any employee of that company,

 

Hope that helps

 

L&P

 

BD

[indiscreet]

the point is its a positive about autism,there has and is so much negativity around autism the positives get over looked. I know we are all different human beings with different talents,but its flagging up the valid importance of autism in human society. With the scarey stories of pre natal testing for the autism gene and american societys looking for cures for autism they are all missing a very improtant part and that is autism has created and achived so much human developements in arts, and the sciences and if business's are saying autism has a place in their world its got to be good for our young people who will be looking to be employed when they leave school /uni etc.

I agree about the amount of negativity around autism. This isn't surprising considering that for most people this means children with learning difficulties and savants who are brilliant musicians or artists but incapable of looking after themselves and needing 24-hour care.

 

The suggestion that Bill Gates and the founder of Facebook are on the spectrum has been a positive and helping others on the spectrum to realise their potential is surely another positive. Of course they will 'cherry pick' among potential candidates but this happens with all potential employers, training establishments, etc. They pick the best as they see it.

[Mumble]

I think matzoball was saying that the thread has gone somewhat off-topic with the last couple of posts about 4 x 4's and I pads and 'normals' V the autistic community and the inventions of the last fifty years or so... As we know, that can sometimes happen with threads and sometimes the diversions are interesting and sometimes individuals find them bothersome or distracting. I think that's what matzoball was posting about, rather than the questions posed in your earlier post(?)

Fair point BD, and having read back you're probably right. I shall take myself to the naughty step. I left my DS there just in case...

 

I do get a little annoyed at the regular "that's not what we're talking about" accusations though, because to shift between topics and to pick up and run with part of what someone says is how normal conversation works. To insist you stick to your topic only and one way of talking about it, is very erm, well, autistic! *ducks behind sofa*

[philipo]

• Moon landing
  
• Internet
  
• Heart bypass surgery
  
• Plethora of life-saving drugs and treatments
  
• ecetera...
  

 

The moon landings were based on pre war chemical,rocket and telemetry technology ,the internet comes from multiplexing old style signals technology,even fibre optics are an old idea,and the millions of transistors inside a computer processor are a variation and development of the the thermionic valve,as invented at the turn of the 20th century and our television and flat screens are old hat,as is the use of wireless routers and mobiles are just a variation on a theme invented by Marconi.many surgical 'inventions' are the result of anasthesia developments that allowed further experimentation,and of the life saving treatments I'd think synthetic insulin is a good un,the thermal radioactive batteries of pacemakers and artifical hearts are based on old ideas,antibiotics stem from the late 30's.The main difference is the DEVELOPMENT of old inventions .

 

As other posters point out the OP .....I have employed (temp) many photographers and artists on a job by job basis,most of them seemed to me lazy and unimaginative and coventional.The best ones were a bit 'odd' as in their perceptions were new and certainly a different slant on things and their contribution to my commercial film ads and music vids gave them a real dynamic because they wer'nt 'standardised production'.working on motorcycle rebuilds /customs and restorations I found the same thing,unconventiality and origionality in ideas,problem solving and execution.If i had a software/engineering/motosport/advertising/media/space program company i'd (where possible)employ the geeks and freaks and the ones who spend a lot of time 'inside' their minds ,rather than the o level modern degree wonders who've been educated to regurgate other peoples ideas,instead of scared sociopathic mimics who 'tick' all the right boxes,I'll always go with the origional thinkers,because evolution demands it.

With asd's/aspie/autisim there are clear traits connected with obssesion,practical hands on learning and the ability to internally visualise that create great minds.these great minds face a daunting struggle to be accepted as 'normal',and even if they make a commercial success then there's still the matter of vested interests.The history of Tesla and the sheer dullness of Edison are worthy of study.The lives of the physicists and mathematicians are another.

Mr Dyson was just another crank until he made some money,the preffered form of excrement.Its all about creative visions and origional thought and people who suffer? from the (d)isability are a vast untapped resource who's contribution to the world of media/entertaimnet/technoogy is vastly unrecongised.The masses are ever more oblivious about fundamental technology except in the use of the net ,which is really just about language ,not how it works.

In work ,as in life and love I'd side with the oddballs,weirdos and freaks anyday .The 'unaffected' are just too shallow,grasping,oppertunistic and ,dare I say stupid and unorigional.

When Microsoft ,years ago decided to start making computer games it hired a load of artists for the graphic ideas and storylines.it suddenly realised it had a rebellion on its hands as nearly all these artists,scriptwriters refused to work for Microsoft unless they could do it on Mac's!Despite company policy,Microsoft had no choice.

[matzoball]

Yoiks!

 

Hi mumble/all... obviously this is only my 'take' on it and I'm not / can't speak for anyone else who's posted but I think there's a crossed wire here?

 

I think matzoball was saying that the thread has gone somewhat off-topic with the last couple of posts about 4 x 4's and I pads and 'normals' V the autistic community and the inventions of the last fifty years or so... As we know, that can sometimes happen with threads and sometimes the diversions are interesting and sometimes individuals find them bothersome or distracting. I think that's what matzoball was posting about, rather than the questions posed in your earlier post(?)

 

 

Pretty much!

 

To address what else was said - I know it sounds like I have drank the kool-aid! Just because I am trying to highlight the positives does not mean that I am not aware of the negatives of the situation. I am just trying to be glass half full is all

 

Mumble - sorry if the tone came across as defensive or agressive, it really wasn't my intention!

 

The points you made are actually things that are being addressed at work and things that I have thought about -

 

The support plans and strategies currently employed to support us are constantly evolving with the intent on sharing that with other organizations. It's not going to be a case of you only get that kind of support if you work for us - that would defeat the point of what the company is trying to achieve - it's not perfect yet but it's got a good start.

 

Believe me, there are days when I just want to throw in the towel because I get so frustrated about things!

 

It's a work in progress and really, it's only just starting so the way things are now aren't necessarily going to be the way things are a year from now.

 

I'm not saying that this is how all companies need to do things, it's just a way of doing things.

[Mumble]

Mumble - sorry if the tone came across as defensive or agressive, it really wasn't my intention!

I apologise too, as I was also defencive about your defencivness. The half-full pot calling the half-full kettle black (or something like that )

[matzoball]

I apologise too, as I was also defencive about your defencivness. The half-full pot calling the half-full kettle black (or something like that )

S'cool

[baddad]

Philipo - the whole basis of your 'observations' seems to be that anyone artistic or gifted or capable of thinking out of the box etc must be an undiagnosed autistic! I think that's rubbish - exactly the kind of 'Aspi-lebrity' and 'Aspi-rational' bolleaux that is helping fuel the huge 'uptake' in casually diagnosed autism by people who've pretty much done nothing but have done it on a Mac rather than a PC and hold 'the others' (call 'em NT's, normals - whatever floats your boat) responsible for their lack of achievement. I'm not aspie bashing or anything like that - I believe emphatically that collectively autistic people have as much to offer the world as any other sector of society, but individually they can be as smart/dull-witted, logical/illogical, inspired/uninspired, artistic/non-artistic, talented/untalented as all of those other sectors of society too.

 

Trying to pretend people with (possible) AS are somehow inherently 'better' than people who do not have AS - however emphatic the personal 'need' to do so and whatever the root of that personal need - is prejudice, pure and simple, and prejudice is an ugly thing whoever is practising it and whoever the victim.

 

There's an old saying that 'Those who can, do and those who can't teach'. Obviously it's an oversimplification, and seems inherently to make unreasonable value judgements about those who 'can't' (because not being able to 'do' or 'teach' something isn't the be all and end all - there are many other positive life skills, and traits too), but there is a third type of person too, I think - the one that neither does nor teaches but spends their whole life wingeing about how they could have done either if circumstances had been different... I don't think there's really much difference between them, regardless of who or what they project the 'blame' for their failure on - be it parents, society, school, 'normals', AS or whatever, but I do get particularly annoyed when it's autism because that has a knock on effect for the way my son and other autistic people are perceived by the wider community. And for the record, that's coming from someone with a lifetime of pretty much achieving sweet FA apart from not being miserable all of the time - so I'm not 'talking down' to anyone... But AS doesn't make anyone an automatic genius or any better (or worse) than anyone else, and neither does buying into the very clever hype and marketing that technically defines the difference between a Mac user and a PC user.

 

Now anyone can rant (see above), but the reality is any argument that carries inherent value judgements about others based on prejudice is as bad as any other argument that carries inherent value judgements about others based on prejudice, and two wrongs never make a right. It's also pretty juvenile - effectively a variation on the theme you can hear in any infant's playground any sunny playtime 'Boys are better than gir- irls, boys are better than gir-irls' (or vice versa).

 

And while I would agree that there's very little new appearing in the shops these days and it's all just reinventing the wheel the further reality is that in terms of the universe and the bigger picture, whatever we silly little monkeys get up to on this silly little Goldilocks planet of ours in the twinkling of an eye it takes us to destroy ourselves it's all inconsequential rubbish. The really clever monkeys on this planet sit poking ants with twigs and wouldn't wipe their bums on an I-pad or know how to start making a wheel. They're much more content to live their simple little non-teleological lives in harmony with the forests the men with Macs and PC's are destroying for them.

 

L&P

 

BD

[philipo]

Philipo - the whole basis of your 'observations' seems to be that anyone artistic or gifted or capable of thinking out of the box etc must be an undiagnosed autistic! I think that's rubbish -

 

 

I did'nt say that at all Baddad,

I am merely pointing out that those who are considered or treated as 'different' 'mad' eccentric' odd' or whatever 'other' that 'socially civilised'.So don't patronise me.i'm might not understand calenders or 'time' and am relativley knew to the world of writing and the net but my 'observations' come from being an experienced electrician,multi instrument musician,sound and lighting engineer,pewter caster,film and music producer,experienced mechanic,electronics enthusiast,homeless and youth worker,probation worker,farm worker/tractor driver,offshore sailor and an obssesive reader of 'history' and 'fact'.Nearly all my skills are self taught as well as a loving dad of four grown ups with some very creative yet obviously aspy/asd/auty traits .

Its no suprise knowing what i know now about 'civilisation' that I've mostly worked for myself.

I find your attitude patronising and negative ,you curse yourself.

Perhaps mumbles will censor your post as an abusive personal insult?How come you can get away with such generalisations and directed personal abuse?Must this site must be your little feifdom.

As you wrote 'judgements based on prejudice'.

p.s. i find your posts about your children show you to be an arrogant narcissistic pedagouge,hiding behind your kids (d)isabilities,experience is everything.

I advise you (and I do take my own advice)to keep to the OP.

What next Baddad,critisie the afflicted for spelling mistakes?Jetta tora Baddad.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king? When i go on this site I always think of the ones who can't even talk or communicate clearly let alone write.

[baddad]

Hi Philipo - I'm not patronising you. I'm doing the precise opposite, in fact, and assuming that you have the intelligence to know how what you write comes across to other people and to see the hypocisy and double-standards there. You certainly seem to be able to pick up nuances like that in my post and even more nuances that aren't there! I also think you're being deliberately disengenuous in misunderstanding things too... A musician/mechanic/electronics enthusiast/engineer who doesn't understand 'time'? An obsessive reader of history who doesn't understand calanders? Oh, pulleeeeze!

 

The most hypocritical thing you've said to date? -

When i go on this site I always think of the ones who can't even talk or communicate clearly let alone write.

 

Where do these 'fit' within your personal vision of higher functioning

'great minds'

that make the common herd, the

'ever more oblivious masses'

of

'the unaffected'

look so

'shallow,grasping,oppertunistic and ,dare I say stupid and unorigional...?

 

I do see all aspects of autism, you see, which is why I make such a clear distinction between autism and the 'new variant autism' that thinks autistic means artistic and AS stands for 'Anxious but Superior'...

 

And who exactly are 'the afflicted' you speak for? And why do you think I'd criticise them for spelling errors? The only time I would criticise someone for typing errors is if they claimed they were the reason they couldn't progress in life in a world where spell-checkers, dictionaries, thesauruses etc were readily available to them... It's not people who overcome difficulties I have a problem with, it's those who make problems where problems don't exist to justify themselves, or hide behind their own assumed disabilities or their own projections of disability as a justification for their prejudices towards 'the rest'.

 

If I've misunderstood your posts somehow, and you're not trumpeting a frankly silly message of autistic superiority, then I really have failed in seeing where. I also think the 'scared sociopathic mimics... incapable of original thought' you despise so much deserve a better press than you're giving them, and being the arrogant old narcissistic pedagogue that I am I'll bl00dy well say so too!

 

I suspect the moderators may well remove your last very aggressive and insulting post and possibly mine along with it for the sake of continuity, but there's actually nothing in mine that stands up to the accusations you make against it, regardless of any personal offense you might have taken.

 

Tsk Tsk

[philipo]

Thats just it in a nutshell.PEOPLE GET SO STUCK ON THE LOW EXPECTATIONS.Yes a musician that does'nt understand time.How time works like counting it ,ticking it off,calenders rota's.I deal in chunks of time.I can work out the chords to songs by hands on playing them from memory,but i don't know what the chords are.i know how the patterns work but can't count them I rely totally on the sound of it,counting it is impossible.I 've played guitars and can produce and create various musical styles yet can't even understand written music or the names for the notes of the strings on a guitar.The ability to manifest the expressions in my head ,musically,mechanically,creativily is compulsive yet so hard fought for.Its very simple things I have problems with,things that people take for granted and do not even consider I would have a problem with because they think I'm 'clever' especially with mechanics and electrics and history and all my life that 'praise ' has been so empty and hollow because I always wanted to do the simple things that I don't understand.I do understand that most people are too simple and thats why I consider them shallow and dunces.many auty/asd/aspies have this strong desire to be 'normal' and wish they could switch off and shut down their minds.Being undiagnosed for years I intuitly embraced what I could do and worked on it,self taught because I could'nt remember what day of the week it was .

EG (with time)went to funeral 6 weeks ago of brother in northern Scotland,relatives ask how long I'm staying.I reply after long pause,I look at my ticket and say '16',they look at me odd.16 was the day on my ticket,When ticket was booked (on day of travel)ticket office say what day are you returning?I say...long pause..and no idea what day as I never thought of that as it ivolves anticipating time in a fixed point in the futire!!two weeks i reply,cos that what people say.my answer was a mimic answer to appear normal.i did'nt understand when that was.On return journey I arrive at coach pick up three days early just in case I miss it.On getting on coach to come home,coach driver tells me I'm one day early but lets me on the coach.coach stops at Glasgow for 25 minutes,i get a tea and return to find coach gone due to getting lost after panic/anxiety attack caused by air brake noise in the bus station.When I work the job in hand becomes my 'calender'.it gets broken down into a left to right series of tasks each connected to the other, a timeline.i can visualise the seperate parts that have to follow each other ,thanks to teenage mechanics I learnt this early,a coping mechanism LOGIC.In the absense of key tools, i have to make my own.

Sorry for calling you a blahh blahh blahh,jsut remember I'm not 'clever' or 'gifted',we are probably as cantankerous and great as each other baddad,just dont call me an asshole who's spent his life moaning,i've spent my life getting on with it,trapped in a bubble whre its hard to touch the simple things.

back to th OP Industry is losing billions and wasting loads of creative origional energy,the situation is compounded by an education system called 'comphrehensive',which really means generic and cheap where no one will be treated as an individual with varying needs.MONEY,CLASS,POWER.There no room to encourage origional research or thought,unless it has a finacial outcome.I'm 48 and a newcomer to the world of writing.xkiss kiss u cantankerous old git.

[baddad]

Thats just it in a nutshell.PEOPLE GET SO STUCK ON THE LOW EXPECTATIONS.Yes a musician that does'nt understand time.How time works like counting it ,ticking it off,calenders rota's.I deal in chunks of time.I can work out the chords to songs by hands on playing them from memory,but i don't know what the chords are.i know how the patterns work but can't count them I rely totally on the sound of it,counting it is impossible.I 've played guitars and can produce and create various musical styles yet can't even understand written music or the names for the notes of the strings on a guitar.The ability to manifest the expressions in my head ,musically,mechanically,creativily is compulsive yet so hard fought for.Its very simple things I have problems with,things that people take for granted and do not even consider I would have a problem with because they think I'm 'clever' especially with mechanics and electrics and history and all my life that 'praise ' has been so empty and hollow because I always wanted to do the simple things that I don't understand.I do understand that most people are too simple and thats why I consider them shallow and dunces.many auty/asd/aspies have this strong desire to be 'normal' and wish they could switch off and shut down their minds.Being undiagnosed for years I intuitly embraced what I could do and worked on it,self taught because I could'nt remember what day of the week it was .

EG (with time)went to funeral 6 weeks ago of brother in northern Scotland,relatives ask how long I'm staying.I reply after long pause,I look at my ticket and say '16',they look at me odd.16 was the day on my ticket,When ticket was booked (on day of travel)ticket office say what day are you returning?I say...long pause..and no idea what day as I never thought of that as it ivolves anticipating time in a fixed point in the futire!!two weeks i reply,cos that what people say.my answer was a mimic answer to appear normal.i did'nt understand when that was.On return journey I arrive at coach pick up three days early just in case I miss it.On getting on coach to come home,coach driver tells me I'm one day early but lets me on the coach.coach stops at Glasgow for 25 minutes,i get a tea and return to find coach gone due to getting lost after panic/anxiety attack caused by air brake noise in the bus station.When I work the job in hand becomes my 'calender'.it gets broken down into a left to right series of tasks each connected to the other, a timeline.i can visualise the seperate parts that have to follow each other ,thanks to teenage mechanics I learnt this early,a coping mechanism LOGIC.In the absense of key tools, i have to make my own.

Sorry for calling you a blahh blahh blahh,jsut remember I'm not 'clever' or 'gifted',we are probably as cantankerous and great as each other baddad,just dont call me an asshole who's spent his life moaning,i've spent my life getting on with it,trapped in a bubble whre its hard to touch the simple things.

back to th OP Industry is losing billions and wasting loads of creative origional energy,the situation is compounded by an education system called 'comphrehensive',which really means generic and cheap where no one will be treated as an individual with varying needs.MONEY,CLASS,POWER.There no room to encourage origional research or thought,unless it has a finacial outcome.I'm 48 and a newcomer to the world of writing.xkiss kiss u cantankerous old git.

 

Sorry, Philipo... I ain't buying what you're selling. If others do, that's fine, but I don't. I didn't call you an asshole, and I don't know how much of your life you've spent moaning or how much of it you've spent getting on with it or how much you've spent in a bubble... I merely objected to you making sweeping generalisations about the nature of autism and sweeping derogatory remarks about the rest of society who aren't autistic. I now see you've expanded those sweeping generalisations to include any aspie or autie who rejects your take on it all as an 'Uncle Tom', choosing to sell out and 'switch off and shut down' their ('brilliant', by implication) mind to emulate the non autistic 'shallow dunces' surrounding them.

 

Look through my posts and you'll see no indication anywhere that I embrace the culture of 'can't do' or the low expectations that arise from that culture. It's probably the single most thing I rally against in my posts. The fact that I'm not willing to overcompensate and embrace your own (or anyone else's) fantasy where a - anyone who wants to be can claim to be autistic, and/or b - autism is equated with a 'higher', 'better' or 'superior' level of being doesn't make me any of the things you feel justified in calling me.

 

Finally, you have, effectively, represented every single potential negative I and others have highlighted in the article this post originally discussed - the marginalisation of autistic people by representing them as something 'other' than a naturally occuring part of the social whole. Only you've done it far more offensively and with far more prejudice than was ever presented in the article or (and I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt here) intended by the company the article is written about.

 

 

 

L&P

 

BD

[matzoball]

ooft.

[indiscreet]

ooft.

 

What does that mean?

[indiscreet]

Autism was only 'discovered' in the 1940s; Asperger's not until the 1990s. Unless you subscribe to the belief that all small children on the spectrum were affected by something in their food,something in the water, or vaccination it seems logical to assume that many adults are also on the spectrum but have not been diagnosed. Also, people in the past. To suggest that the sterotypical 'absent-minded professor in both fact and fiction who, while brilliant in his field, forgets to wash or change his clothes or eat and has difficulty maintaining either work or personal relationships could be on the spectrum actually makes a lot of sense.

 

If, as seems to be the case, many people on the spectrum are brilliant with computers isn't that a good thing? Not just for them as individual but for everyone on the spectrum, since it counters the often negative views held by so many NTs.