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Pancakemaker

Hysterical crying fit

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I've just taken my 4 year old soon to be diagnosed son out of the bath and he wanted to run around the front room butt naked ,as he always does,which I let him do,but when it was time to get dressed and put his nappy on it was bedlam.he pulled my hair and wailed and struggled like a well oiled eel till I said to him that I was tired and I'd had enough and to go ahead and have e wee on the carpet ,as I was going to go and have a cup of tea.I walked out and counted to twenty,and then as I knew he would he began to cry like he was heart broken.I went and gave him a big cuddle and got his nappy on,dressed him and left him happily watching a tumbles DVD with a strawberry "bottit" .I just wanted to know if any other parents out there have this problem? Ie major tantrum,punching,pinching and kicking (and he does that to me and himself),then complete turnaround and devastation?it's heartbreaking to see him so angry and confused.

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Hi

 

I've only just joined and don't know if you do any of these but we have to do countdowns for everything. What I mean is for example getting dressed we say in 10 mins we get dressed, then 5 mins, then 3 mins and then 1 min. We've done this for a few years now and it does help. It doesn't stop the "nuclear moments" as I call them but it does help.

 

Also, my little man has sensory issues and getting in and out the bath and being undressed can set him off bouncing, jumping and flailing his arms if we made him get dressed straight away he will go nuclear. The OT explained to us that his pain receptors are wired differently so to our skin what would feel like a change in temperature to him is a physical pain.

 

Also after a nuclear moment, and yes I too have been battered black and blue on numerous occasions, I hug him really tight and whisper in his ear. While I'm doing this his body goes limp and he has a big sigh and as soon as he's done that it's as if nothing has happened and he is back to normal?

 

Hope this helps even just to know you are not on your on your own.

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Hi

 

I've only just joined and don't know if you do any of these but we have to do countdowns for everything. What I mean is for example getting dressed we say in 10 mins we get dressed, then 5 mins, then 3 mins and then 1 min. We've done this for a few years now and it does help. It doesn't stop the "nuclear moments" as I call them but it does help.

 

Also, my little man has sensory issues and getting in and out the bath and being undressed can set him off bouncing, jumping and flailing his arms if we made him get dressed straight away he will go nuclear. The OT explained to us that his pain receptors are wired differently so to our skin what would feel like a change in temperature to him is a physical pain.

 

Also after a nuclear moment, and yes I too have been battered black and blue on numerous occasions, I hug him really tight and whisper in his ear. While I'm doing this his body goes limp and he has a big sigh and as soon as he's done that it's as if nothing has happened and he is back to normal?

 

Hope this helps even just to know you are not on your on your own.

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I can only speak from experience and say I used to have a similar problem where my boy kicked and squealed. I eventually got a HUGE towel and when I took him out of the bath wrapped him tightly in the towel and wrapped my arms right round the towel tightly. He went rigid then used to calm down quite quickly - it seemed to sooth him - much like a newborn baby swaddled tightly....

 

All the best

 

Fudge x

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Hi, the swaddling sounds like a good idea, it would have definitely helped my son calm down.Also you could try an egg timer to time how long he gets to run around, that way when the timer pings and his time ends its the timer telling him so.This worked for my son as we had big issues about getting out of bed in the morning and an alarm rather than me telling him to get up avoided alot of arguments and tension.Not sure what level of understanding your son has , but have a zero tolerance to hitting etc.Best wishes suzex

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Hi, the swaddling sounds like a good idea, it would have definitely helped my son calm down.Also you could try an egg timer to time how long he gets to run around, that way when the timer pings and his time ends its the timer telling him so.This worked for my son as we had big issues about getting out of bed in the morning and an alarm rather than me telling him to get up avoided alot of arguments and tension.Not sure what level of understanding your son has , but have a zero tolerance to hitting etc.Best wishes suzex

Thank you Suze I'm goig to get a timer this week to see if it works,if it does that'd be a god send,have you seen the film " after Henry" ? The way the film begins,with the little boy lying in the road hitting and screaming,that's what my boy does,in the road,once behind a reversing BMW.when he does hit he's always very sad afterwards,but I make sure to say no firmly and walk away till he's calmed down.spk soon,Emma.x

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Hi, the swaddling sounds like a good idea, it would have definitely helped my son calm down.Also you could try an egg timer to time how long he gets to run around, that way when the timer pings and his time ends its the timer telling him so.This worked for my son as we had big issues about getting out of bed in the morning and an alarm rather than me telling him to get up avoided alot of arguments and tension.Not sure what level of understanding your son has , but have a zero tolerance to hitting etc.Best wishes suzex

Thank you Suze I'm goig to get a timer this week to see if it works,if it does that'd be a god send,have you seen the film " after Henry" ? The way the film begins,with the little boy lying in the road hitting and screaming,that's what my boy does,in the road,once behind a reversing BMW.when he does hit he's always very sad afterwards,but I make sure to say no firmly and walk away till he's calmed down.spk soon,Emma.x

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Thank you Suze I'm goig to get a timer this week to see if it works,if it does that'd be a god send,have you seen the film " after Henry" ? The way the film begins,with the little boy lying in the road hitting and screaming,that's what my boy does,in the road,once behind a reversing BMW.when he does hit he's always very sad afterwards,but I make sure to say no firmly and walk away till he's calmed down.spk soon,Emma.x

Thank you to everyone who recommended a timer when I got lil man out of the bath tonight I told him that when my phone starts beeping it's time to get dressed,I'd set my alarm for 2 minutes time,and guess what?! IT WORKED!!! Xxxxxxxxxxxxx >:D<<'> :notworthy::thumbs:

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Hey thats brill well done !!!.............it can be introduced into so many different scenarios ...... :thumbs: :thumbs:

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Hey thats brill well done !!!.............it can be introduced into so many different scenarios ...... :thumbs: :thumbs:

Yep I'm going to use it for coming in out of the garden,and I don't know what else but I bet there's loads,bed time,oh it's great!thank you!xx

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Also Suze I've got a 12year old daughter so I know about the mascara situation! It sounds like you live in the country your so lucky if you do,we live in south east London.x :unsure:

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mine is 11 and when he has behaved aggressively he does calm down and is very sorry and upset afterwards.time keepng can be chore with us,because he gets side tracked from what he is supposed to be doing,i have tried timers,but he manipulates the timers. if he has a real motive to get ready ie dressed and teeth cleaned for bed he will do it all in good time. in the early days we tried a sequence of pictures in a story which he understood and responded well to,when he was in the mood,he followed the sequence beautifully.

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mine is 11 and when he has behaved aggressively he does calm down and is very sorry and upset afterwards.time keepng can be chore with us,because he gets side tracked from what he is supposed to be doing,i have tried timers,but he manipulates the timers. if he has a real motive to get ready ie dressed and teeth cleaned for bed he will do it all in good time. in the early days we tried a sequence of pictures in a story which he understood and responded well to,when he was in the mood,he followed the sequence beautifully.

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Hi Sesley he's learned to manipulate the timers?that's damn clever hope you relies that! I've got a 14 yr old,who's being assessed,as well as my soon to be 4 soon to be diagnosed little teddy bear.I wonder if pictures would help,I was thinking of taking some pictures of him ,of him sleeping,brushing his teeth,getting dressed and having breakfast,putting them in order laminated and using them,could work,he's obsessed with car signs ie. BMW,renault,vw,and I took pictures of those and got them laminated and put on a jetting so we could spot them on the way to school to motivate him to walk but it back fired and he wanted to cross back and forth to look at each and every car sign! :oops:

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they are very bright and can manipulate everything and everyone to fit the purposes,motivation like the carrot and stick can work very well,the picures for your 4 year old could be a good idea,partiucarly if he finds language and understanding of language difficult to process.

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they are very bright and can manipulate everything and everyone to fit the purposes,motivation like the carrot and stick can work very well,the picures for your 4 year old could be a good idea,partiucarly if he finds language and understanding of language difficult to process.

Thank you I'm still learning it was only suggested last October that there might be something different about my sunshine so any advice is helpful,when I tell his dad if he's been naughty he dives on me and kisses my mouth hard to stop me talking! :rolleyes:

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Hi -

 

I think timers and counting in are helpful strategies, but I'm concerned that there appears no kind of sanction when these behaviours are enacted (?). Telling a four year old to 'go ahead' with the behaviour - whether weeing on the floor, hitting, whatever - sends one absolute message, which is that the child is in control. To walk away and count to twenty is to place yourself in Time Out rather than the child. The dynamic is completely wrong...

 

I also think it's very dangerous to assume reasons like hypersensitivities for the behaviours, as it is to assume that apologies and tears after the event are anything other than manipulative 'crocodile tears'. All children have the potential to enact these types of behaviours (in fact, many abusive adults use exactly the same excuses and show equally unreliable indications of remorse) if enabled to do so, and from everything you've described in terms of your responses your son is being enabled and even rewarded for enacting them with cuddles and attention. What, in his view, is there not to like?

 

When he acts this way, whether bath related, bedtime related, food related whatever, sanction the behaviour. He needs, as Suze has pointed out, to know that it is not acceptable, but I'd go one stage further and say that you need to be tackling the aggressive outbursts as well as actual 'assaults' (I know that word is overkill for a four year old, but can't think of another right now).

 

I would add that other strategies - timers, timetables, star charts etc, also depend on clear expectations, boundaries and concrete definitions. If you get to the point where you're setting a timer twice, where you're 'negotiating' about a routine or the timescale of a routine or giving stars for 'almost' behaviours because to not give a star causes a melt down etc you've completely undermined the strategy.

 

Most important thing is to stop treating your child's behaviour as 'reasonable' or to assume that he can reason like an adult. If he could, he wouldn't be doing these things and he wouldn't need parents at all. He's a child, and he needs to know that in a child / adult relationship the adult is in control. You also need (IMO) to stop projecting assumptions of cause onto these incidents to make them reasonable (justify them), because if you do he will acquire them.

 

In a nutshell, if you want the behaviours to stop, stop them. I'd introduce a 'naughty step' (or hall / chair if the step isn't practical or possible) and if he's four years old that should technically be a four minute Time Out. You / he can still have your apology / cuddle afterwards (I saw somewhere recently that this part of the process is regarded by some psychologists as 'meaningless', because the apology is unlikely to be genuine, but personally i think as long as the sanction is seen through it's a conceit that both can accommodate and does teach a social skill that has value in the wider sense), but there will also be sanction osccuring to counter the behaviour rather than just a reward.

 

HTH

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited by baddad

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Have you tried a ABC chart?

 

http://www.autism.org.uk/living-with-autism/understanding-behaviour/behaviour-guidelines.aspx

 

I recommend a ABC for about a week.

 

That way you will begin to see a trigger but also what consequences your child has with a particular behaviour.

 

I do agree that there is no real consequences to his aggressive behaviouru for example he was allowed to watch Bumbles DVD later on after his outburst.

 

However there may be triggers that are leading to the behaviour in the first place so hopefully by preparing, planning taks for your son will react less aggressivly.

 

A picture symbol Visual Timetable can be helpful if he understands the tasks and is routinly followed.

 

Look at activities and therapy that will help him express his feelings in a more productive way and give him opportunity to use his anger in more safe ways, Anger is natural and normal, its how we deal with it that matters.

 

So look at Feelings, Emotions Stratagies for children with communication impairments, as Aggression can be a form of communication when a child can not verbally express.

 

Look at relaxation activities as reducing stress can also help reduce aggressive tendencies.

 

Your son is four years old and I remember that this period was the hardest time for me so it is a difficult journey.

 

Hopefully when you get the outcome of the possible dx you will be offered more specific parenting support such as Early Birds and Behaviour therapy related to SEN.

 

What support does your son recieve from School?

 

JsMumx

Edited by JsMum

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Not sure I misunderstood the OP,s post, but my suggestion of a timer was to be used as a way of ending the activity which would hopefully decrease the fallout that the OP is finding upon finishing an activity.To me it sounds like he enjoys the letting off steam of being butt naked and running after his bath, which isn,t a bad thing in itself as they need to left off steam as we all know.However the problem arises when he has to stop.Agreed that its very important at any age that any child does,nt appear to be inadvertently rewarded for bad behaviour.....I would also like to add that I like to run around the front room butt naked after my bath and its a great de-stresser after a busy fractious day :thumbs:

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I would also like to add that I like to run around the front room butt naked after my bath and its a great de-stresser after a busy fractious day :thumbs:

 

 

Yerse... but it doesn't do the postman's ticker any good on the mornings he catches sight of you through the open windows :whistle:

 

Mind you, he's making a fortune selling the pics on t'internet!

 

PS: little tip... if you're kid is lettiing off steam after getting out of the bath, try adding more cold next time!

Edited by baddad

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Have tried naughty step and he slides off it or headbutts nearest wall,chair,slides off and head butts floor and punches floor.he is generally overwhelmed and baffled and honestly very upset straight after,no pause just crying.kind of hard to know what to as he isn't by nature a disobedient boy,so if he does start it's normally a reason that's important to him,wrong or right.he's acting out because he can't tell me verbally what's wrong,and I walked away telling to pee on the floor as I had to walk away,or risk sliding on floor,head butting wall etc and that would have been me not him.cupcake who suggested timer is eternal angel who will go to heaven tap dancing in a bowl of custard and I do use it as an end to things or they take a long time to end. As yet he's getting no support in school,or one to one,have appt with community paediatrician on thursday,she's already said the diagnosis will be what I think it's going to be so why not just do it? I know I've missed help now cos he's to old ,like portage (?),but have heard of early bird,is it good?

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Baddad sounds like you may need the cold water added to bath/shower!

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Have tried naughty step and he slides off it or headbutts nearest wall,chair,slides off and head butts floor and punches floor.he is generally overwhelmed and baffled and honestly very upset straight after,no pause just crying.kind of hard to know what to as he isn't by nature a disobedient boy,so if he does start it's normally a reason that's important to him,wrong or right.he's acting out because he can't tell me verbally what's wrong,and I walked away telling to pee on the floor as I had to walk away,or risk sliding on floor,head butting wall etc and that would have been me not him.cupcake who suggested timer is eternal angel who will go to heaven tap dancing in a bowl of custard and I do use it as an end to things or they take a long time to end. As yet he's getting no support in school,or one to one,have appt with community paediatrician on thursday,she's already said the diagnosis will be what I think it's going to be so why not just do it? I know I've missed help now cos he's to old ,like portage (?),but have heard of early bird,is it good?

 

Yes, they do that. You have to hold them by the arms so they can't slide down, head butt floor etc. Sorry, but it really really is important whether he has autism or whether he doesn't that there are consequences to those kinds of behaviours. You are rewarding them at the moment (cuddles DVD's etc) which is the exact opposite of what he needs whether he he has autism or whether he doesn't. The more jusifications you provide yourself with for allowing the behaviour to continue (whether that is autism, bewilderment, acting out because he can't tell you, or (as i think you were saying) your own frustration etc the more he will exhibit these controlling behaviours, and eventually you'll have him reciting them back at you as self-jusification (I can't help it I'm autistic).

 

At the moment he possibly thinks that the timers etc are a sanction or boundary and he doesn't know what the consequences will be for not responding to them. If you let them 'slip' he will realise they're not actually any sort of boundary and that he can control them too, and they will cease to be effective. Honestly, if you ask any parent who has overcome these kinds of behaviours they will all tell you one thing: He will be less confused, less bewildered and less unhappy when he knows where the boundaries are. Gospel. And so will you and your other kid(s).

 

If your child is diagnosed with autism, and you do go to early bird there is one thing they will be very clear on - that autistic children prefer absolutes/concretes/blacks and whites. It's the greys that really upest them, and rewarding behaviours that they know are inappropriate (which if he cries after enacting them by definition he must) is so many different shades of grey they'd blot out just about everything else.

 

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited by baddad

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I think you're reading way too much into this one baddad. The problem seems to have been completely resolved by allowing the boy limited time to run about after the bath, and he now stops without protest once the timer goes off. I don't understand why that's not good enough.

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I think you're reading way too much into this one baddad. The problem seems to have been completely resolved by allowing the boy limited time to run about after the bath, and he now stops without protest once the timer goes off. I don't understand why that's not good enough.

 

 

Hi Tally - dunno really(?). Not sure if the OP was posting about regular bath time behaviour(s) or a 'one off'? Either way, a bit early to say whether timers can offer a long term 'fix' and if a one off a moot point anyway.

 

My post was more regarding responses to violent/aggressive behaviour generally, as the 'as I knew he would' and references to major tantrums, punching, kicking and pinching etc seemed to suggest that these weren't one off / bath related behaviours. If those things are completely resolved by using a timer that's brilliant :thumbs: But if not, (and sorry if I sound pessimistic but I think it's probably going to be 'not' in the longer term), I really think that the advice i've offered will probably be useful.

 

L&P

 

BD

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I seem have started a debate!it's a beautiful thing,controversy etc,bit like a verbal riot!Tally thank you,yes it was a one off at bath time and the timer has sorted it ,other problem I have is he lies down in road,or sits,when I try to move him he does go nuts,I do use reins as he tends to run off.Baddad,I do understand and appreciate your advice and if things ever get that bad I will get a lot more enforceful,right now timers are doing a good job,otherwise there's tasers,duct tape etc... :rolleyes:

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J's mum thank you your advice was very helpful and I do hope he starts to get the support he needs,I think he needs a specialised school,he's in nursery till next year and they have admitted to me that he needs more attention then he gets there.

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Have tried naughty step and he slides off it or headbutts nearest wall,chair,slides off and head butts floor and punches floor.he is generally overwhelmed and baffled and honestly very upset straight after,no pause just crying.kind of hard to know what to as he isn't by nature a disobedient boy,so if he does start it's normally a reason that's important to him,wrong or right.he's acting out because he can't tell me verbally what's wrong,and I walked away telling to pee on the floor as I had to walk away,or risk sliding on floor,head butting wall etc and that would have been me not him.cupcake who suggested timer is eternal angel who will go to heaven tap dancing in a bowl of custard and I do use it as an end to things or they take a long time to end. As yet he's getting no support in school,or one to one,have appt with community paediatrician on thursday,she's already said the diagnosis will be what I think it's going to be so why not just do it? I know I've missed help now cos he's to old ,like portage (?),but have heard of early bird,is it good?

 

 

I had lots of difficulties managing J when he was younger in time out so it can be very hard when the child is lashing out and hurting themselves and others, in the end we had to stop time out and take away privilidges and we used tokens and star charts which where fine for a week or two, what helped me a lot was courses from National Autistic Society called HELP programmes and J recieved therapies from Bibic and other independant children developmental clinics that gave us practical support.

 

 

http://www.autism.org.uk/our-services/residential-community-and-social-support/parent-and-family-training-and-support/help-seminars.aspx

 

 

http://www.bibic.org.uk/

 

I also recieved loads of help from CONTACT A FAMILY fab organisation, if you contact them they send you loads of information and booklets similair to this one here.

 

 

http://www.cafamily.org.uk/pdfs/behaviour.pdf'>http://www.cafamily.org.uk/pdfs/behaviour.pdf

 

http://www.cafamily.org.uk/

 

I didnt get to do the early Birds myself as J recieved dx later on so we missed out.

 

I have had friends though have attended them and the comments are positive.

 

Have a look here on a NAS LINK.

 

http://www.autism.org.uk/our-services/residential-community-and-social-support/parent-and-family-training-and-support/early-intervention-training/find-out-more/parents-views.aspx

 

http://www.autism.org.uk/our-services/residential-community-and-social-support/parent-and-family-training-and-support/early-intervention-training.aspx

 

The Naked running could possibly to do with Sensory needs, to understand more about sensory issues read The out of Syncs Child a fantastic book.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/-Sync-Child-Carol-Stock-Kranowitz/dp/0399531653/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312844928&sr=1-1r

 

I do agree that the aggression issue does need to be dealt with because I learnt that as they do get bigger, stronger it only gets more serious and if not dealt with now the assualts will only get more serious and dangerous.

 

So do ensure you get the right support to deal and manage your sons aggressive behaviour before it really does become a real area of concern.

 

JsMumxxx

Edited by JsMum

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I seem have started a debate!it's a beautiful thing,controversy etc,bit like a verbal riot!Tally thank you,yes it was a one off at bath time and the timer has sorted it ,other problem I have is he lies down in road,or sits,when I try to move him he does go nuts,I do use reins as he tends to run off.Baddad,I do understand and appreciate your advice and if things ever get that bad I will get a lot more enforceful,right now timers are doing a good job,otherwise there's tasers,duct tape etc... :rolleyes:

 

 

Well I'd just give the naughty step a go first - tasers and duct tape sound a bit like overkill! But honestly, don't you think the overall picture is one where being a bit more proactive will help? Reins, him rolling in the road, going nuts etc... And the punching, kicking and pinching etc - just the one incident, post bath? It really does like he's pulling all the strings here, despite you holding the reins. :(

 

 

 

L&P

 

BD

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J's mum thank you your advice was very helpful and I do hope he starts to get the support he needs,I think he needs a specialised school,he's in nursery till next year and they have admitted to me that he needs more attention then he gets there.

 

 

I would get the ball rolling now then if you want him in a specialist school as it can take a long time to get in place, its getting harder and harder to get children with suspected/diagnosed/undiagnosed children into special schools as there closing and new Acadamies with Enhanced Learning units are opening which are still totally unsuitable for some childrens SENs.

 

So I would get intouch with IPSEA and Other Educational Services to help you, there is a NAS Educational advise line too so contact them too.

 

It has been openly widely discussed here that lack of support in the school can and does have a knock on effect on childrens behaviour when thier needs are not been met and can affect their behaviour within the home.

 

So I would look into what support could be offered in the here and now and the future.

 

You said that the Nursery said that he will need more attention when he goes to school, what kind of attention and why would he need more attention, you have to show specific and presise reasons for your child needing the support.

 

Anyway recommend you get support now for his educational needs.

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/Index.php?/topic/20381-special-educational-needs-advice/

 

 

 

What is the enviroement like when he is outdoors and in the middle of the road? Busy, Traffic, Crowds, ect....

 

JsMumxxx

Edited by JsMum

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Ok will give step a go,and yes I am trying to be stricter,but I need to find out somehow much of this is behavioural and how is sensory overload.roadworks make him scream,and kick but that's now much better that he has his earmuffs.

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J's mum,he usually lies in road when I really need him to hurry up!but there doesn't seem to be a a trigger,it can be a quiet road or a busy one,he can lie down or just sink to a seated position in the middle of us walking to nursery or anywhere,doesn't seem to be a reason at all I wish there was.I've been told by senco that there's no hope of getting him into a special school without a statement or diagnosis,and that I'd have to wait also as he doesn't exhibit this behaviour at school,which I've heard is common,I'm not completely sure I'm believed.your being ever so helpful thank you very very much,I'll definitely do that and contact them.contact a family is good and so are family fund.x

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but I need to find out somehow much of this is behavioural and how is sensory overload.roadworks make him scream,and kick but that's now much better that he has his earmuffs.

 

Hi again pancakemaker - this is a difficult area, but very often it comes down to preconceptions on the part of the 'viewer' (the person watching or judging the behaviour) rather than the intentions or responses of the 'actor' (the person enacting the behaviour). I find the terminology a bit pretentious, but it's what's known as 'The Interactional Paradigm'...

 

Trying to offer an example, if two dogs were independently trained to react in certain ways to a whistle - one calmly, and one aggressively - and then someone was to blow that whistle it would appear to any viewer that one dog was aggressive and one dog passive. Their 'judgements' wouldn't have any basis in reality - the dog trained to respond aggressively could, in all other situations, be a far more good-natured, well behaved dog than the apparently passive one.

 

One of the biggest dangers with suspected 'hypersensitivity' is that people respond in inappropriate ways that are then interpreted as evidence that the problem actually exists - it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In your case, you have given your son ear muffs to combat his dislike/fear of roadworks. This has confirmed and reinforced in him his belief that roadworks are something to fear/dislike, and instilled in him the belief that ear muffs are an appropriate response to deal with that fear/dislike. Effectively, responses like that (and sorry, this is not meant to be 'judgemental' and may well be completely wrong - I couldn't possibly know from the info you've given and am only talking in general terms) could create a full grown 'phobia' from what is actually an aversion, set a precedent for further disabling phobias and create a lifetime reliance and dependency on adaptations (ear muffs) that are further disabling/socially limiting.

 

The same applies to monsters under the bed, the dark, water splashes etc etc... If we respond to them as though the child's fears are justified or rational the child, quite naturally, will believe it too.

 

None of that rules out the possibility of hypersensitivity, but IMO the term does get used more casually than it should these days both in respect of autism and NT children. Even if genuine, the goal should always be to teach a child to overcome and cope with the sensitivity wherever possible, as to not do so can only be disabling/limiting.

 

Hope that helps

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Oh PS: Just seen your post to J's Mum. If your son at four doesn't display these behaviours at school then they are far more likely to be situational and 'controlling' rather than medical, as he is far too young to have developed any ability to 'bottle it up and bring it home' (not that I'm a strong believer in that anyway, but even with the benefit of the doubt four is too young for that to be a viable explanation). Chances are, though, that behaviours enacted at home soon will cross the school gates, and if they are enabled in school as well you will have one of those 'self-fulfilling prophecies' on your hands. :(

Edited by baddad

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BD

 

Oh PS: Just seen your post to J's Mum. If your son at four doesn't display these behaviours at school then they are far more likely to be situational and 'controlling' rather than medical,

 

BD J at four did display the same behaviurs at school just for the record, some schools dont recognise, achknowledge our childrens distress, or difficulties and some schools lye and buck to system to save their own SEN funding because they want to spend it on basket ball hoops.

 

 

Just because a child with ASD/ADHD ECT is fine at school doesnt mean that they dont have a medical reason, J has complex special needs including ADHD and Autistic Spectrum Disorder and in a specialist school to meet his special educational Needs which took me years to fight LEA/SS/NHS to ensure he accessed the right provision and one that actually achknowledge his needs and meet his needs.

 

Just because there is a difference in behaviour at school to home doesnt mean that its purely situational (parents fault)!!!!

 

 

Here is an interesting links on behaviour at school and Home.

 

http://www.autism.org.uk/living-with-autism/understanding-behaviour/behaviour-common-questions-answered/different-behaviour-between-school-and-home.aspx

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/192-the-passive-childpretending-to-be-normal/

 

 

JsMumx

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BD

 

Oh PS: Just seen your post to J's Mum. If your son at four doesn't display these behaviours at school then they are far more likely to be situational and 'controlling' rather than medical,

 

BD J at four did display the same behaviurs at school just for the record, some schools dont recognise, achknowledge our childrens distress, or difficulties and some schools lye and buck to system to save their own SEN funding because they want to spend it on basket ball hoops.

 

 

Just because a child with ASD/ADHD ECT is fine at school doesnt mean that they dont have a medical reason, J has complex special needs including ADHD and Autistic Spectrum Disorder and in a specialist school to meet his special educational Needs which took me years to fight LEA/SS/NHS to ensure he accessed the right provision and one that actually achknowledge his needs and meet his needs.

 

Just because there is a difference in behaviour at school to home doesnt mean that its purely situational (parents fault)!!!!

 

 

Here is an interesting links on behaviour at school and Home.

 

http://www.autism.org.uk/living-with-autism/understanding-behaviour/behaviour-common-questions-answered/different-behaviour-between-school-and-home.aspx

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/192-the-passive-childpretending-to-be-normal/

 

 

JsMumx

 

 

Hi j's mum... You seem to have interpreted personally what is a general observation, and to be fair I can't really respond to that. That 'parents fault' parenthesis is another that's difficult for me to qualify, other than to say that saying a problem can arise because of the way behaviours are responded to isn't an accusation or 'blame'.

 

Yes, I do accept that J has complex needs... My own son has Autism, ADHD and dyspraxia so I'm no stranger to complex needs.... Complex needs, however, are not an explanation for all behaviours, as your own situation (and mine, come to that) clearly highlights. Yes children can behave differently at home and school and vice versa, and some psychologists have theorised that this is related to them 'holding it in' until they are in an environment where they feel 'safe to let it out'. I know Tony Attwood's theory, but while offered as an explanation for some children's behaviour it seems to have been adopted as a 'Universal Truth' by every parent whose child behaves abusively at home and well in school, and I'm pretty sure even TA would admit that's not the case. I think, and in the vast majority of cases I've seen where those assumptions are fully investigated, there are much simpler explanations for why a child behaves inappropriately in one situation and appropriately in another. I also think that applies to grown ups who present in the same way - i.e. who can be kind, considerate, thoughtful, loving partners when they first meet someone or are out in company but become violent and abusive after a 'settling in' period or when they are alone with their victims after they get home. And those factors apply equally to autistic and NT children / Adults, regardless of any medical complex needs.

 

Hope that makes sense and that it's appreciated and that I'm only responding to questions asked, and in the most non-confrontational manner possible given the circumstances under discussion.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited by baddad

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J's mum,he usually lies in road when I really need him to hurry up!

 

 

The fact you had to hurry could of been the trigger.

 

Planning, preparing, time and organisation is a real key to helping a person manage and cope with a task.

 

Doing tasks in a hurry can cause stress and anxiety and overwhelment.

 

If you have been stressed yourself because your going to be late or delayed this can also esculate the situation, so look at your own reactions, when were in a hurry we may not give as much patience, we may change our vioce tone and volume, we become hasseled. so it maybe your reactions are feeding the situation too.

 

Some tasks need to be broken down and allow more time to do that task, if your son has processing impairments he will require additional time so he can process the task and then act on the task in mind.

 

The behaviour your describing about not coperating to walk and to just sit there I would describe as an Aviodant behaviour, avidant behaviours are a childs own coping stratagie to put off a task for as long as possible because they are going to struggle with a task for what ever reason.

So my advise is to break down the tasks into small size pieces and look at preperation stratagies.

 

I feel that there is always a trigger to a behaviour, sometime the behaviour isnt displayed until hours, days, even weeks later.

 

JsMuMX

Edited by JsMum

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Another thing to think about regarding the behaviours at home and at school, is those involving the quiet child who does,nt interact and shuts themselves off.During primary school my son would never have been considered a problem behaviourally at school as he shut himself off and shut down effectively.It was through this type of behaviour though that the school highlighted concerns and he was referred to camhs.However by comparison at home he was very strung out, very emotional , tearful and anxious....and his behaviour was completely different to that at school.Its not always necessarily a bad behaviour that is highlighted and a concern for schools.You may find that as your son enters a more formal school environment he displays more extreme types of behaviour to cope, like my son did.He used to hide etc no eye contact and very little talking .At 4 its still quite early to see how your son is gonna be a school till hes put in that situation.My son managed alot better at nursery as he used to busy himself with his tractors etc and did,nt have to follow any set routines in the day, like they do at school.

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The behaviour your describing about not coperating to walk and to just sit there I would describe as an Aviodant behaviour, avidant behaviours are a childs own coping stratagie to put off a task for as long as possible because they are going to struggle with a task for what ever reason.

 

I feel that there is always a trigger to a behaviour, sometime the behaviour isnt displayed until hours, days, even weeks later.

 

JsMuMX

 

Hi again J's mum -

 

Avoidant behaviour is one possible explanation of course (but it does imply by defintion the child having enough theory of mind to understand what task they are trying to avoid and to realise that by enacting their behaviour they can avoid it - huge assumptions to be making about any four year old), but there are many others, the most obvious basic and simple being 'control'. A second assumption is avoidant behaviour on the basis of anxiety about 'struggling', when it could far more simply be a case of not wanting to do something, not liking something, or, erm control. Picking up mum's stress could be another reason for avoidant behaviour, but a child being deliberately 'wilful' will choose exactly those kinds of times because they are precisely the times when their behaviour will have the most impact, and because any 'reward' they gain from the adults responses will be bigger.

 

I Totally agree there will always be a 'trigger' for behaviour. I just disagree that it will always be an external or medical or 'innocent' one, and believe that the asnwer is far more likely to lie in the fact that the child is a child and is therefore acting as children act... It's not complicated, it's nature. A 'naughty' kitten gets a cuff from mum. A 'naughty' puppy gets a cuff from mum. The cuff helps the naughty puppy / naughty kitten learn right from wrong; where it can go, where it can't go, when it's time to play, when it's time to sleep, when it's time to learn etc etc. Puppies and kittens who don't learn right from wrong either go feral or get eaten by bigger cats and dogs. It's nature.

 

L&P

 

BD

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If every time my boy here's roadworks,tractors etc he seems to be physically in pain then of course I'm going to get him ear defenders,he'd be fine until he got near to the noise and then he'd start to hold his ears and cry this high pitched keening noise,now he's fine,we go right up to where any roadworks are and he likes to watch the tractors,cranes etc.so no,I don't think he's scared of the sound,he just can't bear it.I'm sorry js mum I didn't make myself clear at all,my fault,I was hurrying him to get him across the road,there were cars coming,I always leave 20 mins earlier then needed ,I've learned from many mistakes in the past!x

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