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      Depression, Mental Health and Crisis Support   06/04/2017

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Fourthdimension

Moderation! Yeah right! let the sheep be sheep and i ll do my own thing!

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Well this conversation came about in a way i dont care to discuss but in short i told her i have an extreme personality that i either climb the highest mountain or climb none, love them all or hate them, need them or dont want them.

 

There is no middle ground why waste my time with moderation

 

Moderation is another form of social acceptance where you try to fit in society by doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that ignoring your true self so that you fit into society

 

this is why we obsess because we are not the social sheep like them

 

extremities are in the purest forms: pure emotion not diluted by restrictions

Your true self without denying yourself

There are no modifications of adjustments just pureness

 

Moderation takes away the value of what you do it is for sheep who want to be socially acceptable and socially viable to be the slaves of society driven only by the need for others.

 

To be oneself and forget about moderation is honesty in its purest form

 

So i ll leave moderation to the sheep sharing the grass. Just make them big and fat ready for the predators. good riddens Mr and Mrs sheep :P:robbie: and yes this is robbie the rabbit and he is not a sheep hehe

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baddad   

 

 

To be oneself and forget about moderation is honesty in its purest form

 

 

 

No, to be oneself and forget about moderation is selfishness in its purest form. Honestly.

 

L&P

 

BD

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bid   

I don't mean this in an unkind way, FD, but what makes you think that you are so unique you don't need to consider other people?

 

You can certainly do that if you wish, but unfortunately you will end up with a very empty, lonely life.

 

This really has nothing to do with autism.

 

Bid :)

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dekra   

I agree with bid, I read your posts and I just see an exceedingly rude, callous and vindictive person. I'm guessing you are tarring all NT people for the actions of a few.

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I think I kinda see part of what you are saying... about pureness of emotion for example - it reminds me of when I'm in company I cannot react in the way I'd wish to because of what people would think and say, and so to a degree am acting in moderation for fear of rebuke or reprisals... I don't think this is an AS specific thing though cuz some people I know are like it too - in a different way perhaps, but the principle is the same.

 

Unfortunately moderation is required for so much of the time - but I think it is a necessary thing sometimes - like when I want to punch someone in the face - I don't because I force self-control, and also because this kind of outburst would be very unacceptable, but also because I have to balance my wishes and feelings within the society I live in - so I content myself with the thought and carry on.

 

I find balance and moderation hard - I sometimes get very angry that the place I live requires so much constant effort, that it always seems like I am the one to have to learn everything, when I'm angry I would hate moderation too, but when you narrow it down to its basic elements, everything needs moderation - sure you can throw petrol on a fire to start it faster, but then you run out of petrol, and if you feed the fire everything you have, you will be cold another time (in a slightly philosophical mood this evening) ;)

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I can relate in some way to what you are saying Fourthdimension but what can't be changed is that we live in a world which has evolved to suit the majority- NTs - and one has to adapt a little in order to find some kind of place - some kind of happiness - in that world.

 

It doesn't mean being untrue to yourself because in many ways it's just a cosmetic thing. You learn to respond to people in a way that they like and that makes things easier for you. I had to learn to smile. Before that I'd be perfectly polite but could sense people were uneasy (or uncooperative with me) and then I found that all it took was to greet them with a smile. At first it seemed so false but in time it just became automatic.

 

I also think Darksunshine put it very well when he/she said "Unfortunately moderation is required for so much of the time - but I think it is a necessary thing sometimes - like when I want to punch someone in the face - I don't because I force self-control, and also because this kind of outburst would be very unacceptable, but also because I have to balance my wishes and feelings within the society I live in - so I content myself with the thought and carry on."

Edited by indiscreet

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bid   

Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for yourself, and that includes self-control and self-discipline.

 

If people act without moderation, the 'purity of their emotions' simply leads to the abuse of others.

 

Bid :)

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cmuir   

Hi

 

We all live in a society where expectations are placed on us all in terms of social ettiquete (law, etc etc), and that can start with basic social interaction skills. For example, a child in nursery needs to be taught to share, sit down at story time, how to behave at snack time, etc etc. The same principles apply to adults (NT or otherwise) and extends to various environments e.g. whether that's living in a house with ones family, in employment, studying, etc. Ultimately to get along in life, we need to be able to express our viewpoint whilst being respectful to others (perhaps a rather extreme consequence, but wars can literally break out!). Inability or unwillingness to do so can cause all sorts of issues, which I believe ultimately affect ones happiness, employment/promotion prospects, etc etc. Certainly when I was a teenager, I had my rebellious moments, but learnt pretty quickly that it's so not worth ruffling feathers to make a point thats simply not worth making (the concept of moderation is there for a reason).

 

C.

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If people act without moderation, the 'purity of their emotions' simply leads to the abuse of others.

That. Is a bl**dy good point!

 

If I let my pure violent side be shown to the world they would definitely suffer from abuse, both in the form of fear, pain, physical and verbal abuse - this would be wrong and even though I feel like I'm gonna explode, and the stress is really unhelpful, I know it is right for my to not be like that, and its best for other people too!!!

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Hi Baddad ,

 

How do you think too act without moderation is selfishness when you can still act without moderation and still have a degree of control over been considerate for others?

 

For example, i use to act in moderation when in a social situation. Why because i didn't want to hurt people, Didn't want people to think bad of me and didn't wanna think bad of people.

 

I would be over-courteous and too much restraint over my patience and consideration of others leading to inevitably been used by people. You get washed up in these waves of moderation that you forget what it is like to be free and without restraint.

 

Just because we act without moderation it does not mean we are impolite or act destructively. It is just to be free. When you give that run all you have and you say forget about moderation or body failure because even if my body fails me and my legs become week i will get to this point and suceed. To act in extreme fashions is to inspire the passion and determination that life seeps from you and make your own choices and feel Independent been one with yourself.

 

What makes you condemn all extremities as bad just because all people aren't nice who you met who acts extrmely it does not mean they are all bad. Look at people like martin luther king....Did he not act in extremity to reach his cause? Activists who stop wars and want peace is that not acting extremly or how about those scientists who creat substances that safe lifes because they forgot about moderation and devoted blood sweat and tears into creating these formula's is that not acting in all extremities or that dying patient who wants one last smell of the mountain air and climbs that steep ascent just for the breeze in her face so she can say I am alive, and i have lived and despite times been bad i tried my best....

 

But hey even saying it was greed, just say to act extremely is greed then what makes you think greed is any more of a social label as say love. Take a look of them both. I guess they both have distinct differences but they have much similarities too, both are thrown into passionate states maybe greed thay only care about themself or that object and love only cares about a person which in psychology in short term attraction we view people as objects.

 

Both are blinded by a cause

Both would die for their cause

Both can turn inwards from the world they live and create a fantasy world filled with pessimism or optimism for the outside world whilst their internal world just revolves around the object they desire.

 

Greed is just another social label so that we can tear each other apart for been ourselves. A miser...Greed for money, I have much more people who spend money freely hurt me than i have people who lock themselves and their money away from society.

 

I mean greed, lust, love,extreme actions and emotions all of these are filled with passion

 

I guess it becomes easy to forget about people when acting extremely but it does not mean that you hurt people you simply avoid them.

 

Hi Bid, At not one point did i say i was unique. I said i am just trying to be me by doing what i want instead of following labels. So yes i am trying to find my uniqueness because we are all unique. Maybe you dont feel unique but we all are and why do i have to consider other people when they can consider themselves. Of course its not that i hurt them because i just avoid them and avoiding people as you say is not considering people but its not hurting them either. Why cant they consider themselves and their lives too give it more value or passion. I value my life and even though i say i dont in a different post i dont mean just because am not happy living here that i dont value living here but thats another post. So i do value my life and the people who come into it but what relevance is me considering people and things that are not my buisness.

 

So my life is not empty. because to give some thing your all and act in all extremity is only to invoke passion ,love and hate. Maybe people come and go and in the end i have noone but if none desires to stay in my life then thats there choice why should i change myself to fit someoneelse. Maybe the ideology of having a full life filled with social ties and loving families is all just an illusion and in fact all we ever have is ourselves at come point. I guess to readying oneself to not need others is more considerate than considering and leaning on peoples shoulders. They have their own burdens why do they need mine.

 

Yes your right it is about self control and displine and they can be found on either side and are not a constant to moderation but a variable to freedom. Its just how you approach them.

 

Hey Dekra, Thanks I hope you continue to see that and continue your life in ignorance to the truth that life is vindictive , callous and rude and actually i wasn't referring simply to NT, maybe the NT people who share the same similarities as Some Aspies and other people in general life so yes it is a generalization not a specification and actually i was talking about with NT's aswell as others. The type of people who think life is cosy and smug and that everything is fine. No africans are starving no women been abused or men been tortured. No possible reason that we are capable of self extinction or beoming slaves to goverments and instutions that restrict our right to be free and think. Just compare the recent changes . England promoting human rights in other countries but scrapping the bill of rights here. So yeah if you want to continue see life has that sweet smelling rose then so be it , go pick it up and smell it but just remember it has thorns. Sometimes getting cut from them instills that passion to go beyond reason to fill that emptiness.

 

I know life aint no saint and that its not a nice place and too be frank i don't want to be here but i still forget about lazy moderaton and give it my Extreme all so at least i know i lived even if it was in despair.

 

Hey Darkshine - Your right its not AS specific but you see a lot more AS people with it because we have obsessions and we forget about others and retreat to our safe haven to work in passion on our obessions that we extremely admire :D Whilst as NT's usually are to busy socially interacting to take time out and think about having an obsession yet alone think in an obsessional way.

 

I understand what you say when you say moderation is required for say you want to punch someone and i agree with that very much but maybe if it was kept inside you that anger and dwelled on it would evolve into a more potent type of anger or sucidal thoughts or just simply change the way you think of things, but to not be moderate about that and say channel that rage into a constructive passive agressive outburst not only will you get the point across that your not a push over and that you are independant and can think for yourself but people will give you more respect and it will relieve you of such feelings.

I am not really agressive although i think i would be if instead of transforming my anger into a passive agressive way i would be quite agressive but this does not make it moderated because it has been transformed it just makes it expressed in a different manner , a more sensible one

 

I can see what your saying Darkshine and i agree slightly but maybe the anger and the fustration is only there because you go about with moderation and poeple can be fustrating but we keep it locked up inside and slowly life builds a wall of torment and to exorcise this we must offer no restraint and just say life is how it is that way we know the ride we are in for and not have to decorate it with cosy flowers dressed in a shorts and top when we can prepare for what lies a head and be better readied with our winter coat and hat to bear the rain and cold.

 

I guess it would hurt others if others have hurt you but then dont they deserve to be hurt if they have caused you pain. why should you live your life with people hurting you and just take it like you were wearing a bullet proof vest when you can pull your gun out and defend oneself. Their is a difference between abuse and self defense but society wants us to be vunerable and thats why we mistaken the two.

 

Thanks Darkshine (hugs)

 

Indiscreet, I think you have said pretty much how i feel sometimes but you dont have to go around pretending that we have to adapt to fit them because this adaptation that becomes automatic and restricts us is what makes us become miserable and lessens the value of trueness and freedom to oneself. To act without moderation is nt to slaughter or abuse and is nt to overstep the line and affect other peoples choice but instead it is too affect your own choices while you can and think what do i want? Thanks for understanding.

 

Hey Cmuir - You just reminded me of something i learnt in psychology - obedience has two states one is the agentic state where the consciousness only feels responsible to the boss and the job and our consicousness does not act in a normal way and we are taught in this while we are a child where a mother smacks a child for bullying another child shows that they are instilling good ethics in the child but also making the child more susceptible to the will of authorities this is why the natzi's killed the jews. So these expectations are nt really expectations at all but rather explicit demands/implicit demands made from society and yes just like eating doughnuts can effect ones health so can acting without expectations set by others or moderation effect my happiness but speaking freely and been myself will attract someone similar to me rather than finding a face that fits the mask. Like attracts like. I'd prefer to take off the mask and attract someone similar to me and be happy rather than put on the mask and live a life of lies just to life in pretense that it will bring me more happiness. When i can be happy right now even if despair is a cloud that swirls over all skies.

 

Thanks for your replies

Edited by Fourthdimension

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bid   

Hi again FD,

 

I don't mean this in an unkind way, but everything you write is all about you.

 

Increasingly I'm aware that I am very, very old school. But I was brought up to think that it is important to give something back. As a child, on two occasions my parents brought home to live with us indiviuals who were going through difficult times, such as depression. I've never been as alturistic as that, but as an adult I always did voluntary work when I was at home with young children, and now work with young people with complex needs.

 

Again it's probably very old-fashioned, and consequently unpopular, but I think looking outwards rather than constantly focusing on yourself, will ultimately help you to be a happier, more balanced person.

 

Bid :)

 

ETA: I've just read a later post of yours where you say you are very busy as a student with studying and working so voluntary work isn't possible. You also say that you help other students with work at times, and I think this is an excellent thing to do, as it gives you a focus away from your own difficulties, and you may end up with some new mates too :)

Edited by bid

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baddad   

Hi Baddad ,

 

How do you think too act without moderation is selfishness when you can still act without moderation and still have a degree of control over been considerate for others?

 

For example, i use to act in moderation when in a social situation. Why because i didn't want to hurt people, Didn't want people to think bad of me and didn't wanna think bad of people.

 

I would be over-courteous and too much restraint over my patience and consideration of others leading to inevitably been used by people.

 

Those are completely different things: to say 'I have been used by people because I have been too accomodating' is one thing, but you're taking one extreme and responding with another extreme. If you are saying you apply some moderation - i.e. you offer others some consideration and exercise a degree of control then it isn't 'without moderation' - you're just moderating your behaviour on your own terms rather than more general terms (which may or may not be selfishness, depending on the circumstances, but certainly has the potential to be). Additionally, to say 'I have been used by people' may well be true, but it is also a personal/subjective appraisal... it could equally be that people haven't responded the way you have wanted them too and you perceive that as being 'used'. The reality might be that your expectations of other people are too high, and that from their perspective they feel 'used' when they fail to live up to your expectations and you consequently stop bothering to moderate or mediate your behaviour in order that they can meet you somewhere in the middle.

 

Look again at the title of your post - 'let the sheep be sheep and I'll do my own thing' - seems a pretty dismissive attitude towards the rest of the human race (the sheep), doesn't it? Which is fine if that's how you want to live your life, but don't expect the sheep to accommodate you in that lifestyle choice. If my son spoke to me like that I'd tell him he's a baaaaaaaaad baaaaaaaaad boy and where he could ram it!

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Hey Darkshine - Your right its not AS specific but you see a lot more AS people with it because we have obsessions and we forget about others and retreat to our safe haven to work in passion on our obessions that we extremely admire :D Whilst as NT's usually are to busy socially interacting to take time out and think about having an obsession yet alone think in an obsessional way.

I understand this - the NT's I know or have known (as an adult) that are sociable people, have pretty much done as you say - they are so busy jumping through social hoops that they neglect other things - I don't think they mean to - I don't think they see things like I do - and they base way too much of what they do on people's expectations (like how to dress, where to go, what to do).

 

The hilarious thing in my own case is that I think these people are essentially stupid, but I know that in my own way I jump through enough hoops myself.

 

Awareness seems to be the difference in my experience too... I am aware of what I'm doing and why, whereas they don't seem to be.

 

Whenever people have had an obsession (for NT's I know/have known do have obsessions) it has been fitness, or dieting, body building, love (seen some dodgy things for this one!!!), work, beauty even... they have all seemed to be pretty harmful and destructive... and can mostly be blamed on media portrayal of what is perfect and what people need to be happy. Have known quite a few obsessive gamers too, or techie nerds lol.

 

Obsessions often seem to be harmful in that things get neglected due to the obsession - I wonder if this makes a difference... if an NT was obsessed with playing pc games, and so was someone on the spectrum - would this make a difference in the outcome/effects of the obsession...

 

I intrigued as to how you'd describe thinking in an obsessional way as opposed to thinking in a normal or shallow way (for example)?

 

I understand what you say when you say moderation is required for say you want to punch someone and i agree with that very much but maybe if it was kept inside you that anger and dwelled on it would evolve into a more potent type of anger or sucidal thoughts or just simply change the way you think of things, but to not be moderate about that and say channel that rage into a constructive passive agressive outburst not only will you get the point across that your not a push over and that you are independant and can think for yourself but people will give you more respect and it will relieve you of such feelings.

I am not really agressive although i think i would be if instead of transforming my anger into a passive agressive way i would be quite agressive but this does not make it moderated because it has been transformed it just makes it expressed in a different manner , a more sensible one

Anger's a funny thing (in that it isn't always the same, there are different angers) sometimes I just explode, sometimes I dwell on things and anger burns inside me, sometimes things seem unjust and I get a more constructive anger that helps me help others to rectify the unjust circumstance in their life, and sometimes I just hate everything about the shallowness and stupidity of people :rolleyes:

 

And yes, dwelling can create potent anger or suicidal thoughts - From being a teenager I have felt suicidal - sometimes more strongly than other times (that's another story), I have felt that more potent kind of anger many times in my life, enough to want destruction, death, hurt and pain to come on other people, I've wanted them to suffer so they would know what I felt like.

 

Problem is I cannot channel it for useful purposes FD - I am a pushover in some ways because my inability to communicate things (especially when I'm angry) prevents people from understanding, which in turn makes me furious enough to want them to die on the spot - not useful at all so I bury it bury it bury it to keep me and everyone else safe.

 

Also with anger sometimes I cannot think clearly, but other times everything becomes so crystal clear that I become more angry because its like I see everything for what it really is and that either makes me more angry or it makes me sort of slump and give up (physically as well as mentally or emotionally) very tiring ;)

 

I can see what your saying Darkshine and i agree slightly but maybe the anger and the fustration is only there because you go about with moderation and poeple can be fustrating but we keep it locked up inside and slowly life builds a wall of torment and to exorcise this we must offer no restraint and just say life is how it is that way we know the ride we are in for and not have to decorate it with cosy flowers dressed in a shorts and top when we can prepare for what lies a head and be better readied with our winter coat and hat to bear the rain and cold.

A fair portion of my anger is because I go about with moderation - because I cannot communicate what I want to say (for various reasons).

 

Also I am angry at my lot in life.

That I have to act out a lie because of how people are supposed to be.

I am angry that I do not fit into this Western world and how that world works and what the people in it are like.

I hate society - but I have learnt that some individuals within that society are ok, nice even.

 

I guess it would hurt others if others have hurt you but then dont they deserve to be hurt if they have caused you pain. why should you live your life with people hurting you and just take it like you were wearing a bullet proof vest when you can pull your gun out and defend oneself. Their is a difference between abuse and self defense but society wants us to be vunerable and thats why we mistaken the two.

I like that analogy lol, if someone specifically hurts me, like users - there's a lot of people that try to use people - sure, if they have hurt me - then yeah, they deserve to be punished - the problem is I do too good a job at that so I have to wear my bulletproof vest and take it because its easier.

 

As for society, like people in the street - same goes - they technically hurt me because its them that make me feel how I do, which then makes me feel the things I feel - but I can't punish everyone because most people don't know that they are even doing it - is it fair to hurt them when they are unaware... probably not.

 

Simple fact is that I will just have to put up with it because I cannot change the world, but its easier in some senses to lie and pretend when amongst them, than to be honest and get overpowered because there's more of them than me or you :wallbash:

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Tally   
I understand this - the NT's I know or have known (as an adult) that are sociable people, have pretty much done as you say - they are so busy jumping through social hoops that they neglect other things - I don't think they mean to - I don't think they see things like I do - and they base way too much of what they do on people's expectations (like how to dress, where to go, what to do).

 

But if being very sociable and being liked are important to you, then that's your choice. How do you know that the things you see people neglecting are important to them anyway? Just because they are important to you, does not mean they should be important to other people. Like you say, they see things differently to you, and you can't make judgements about whether their lives are fulfilling based on what makes you happy.

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bid   

But FD and Darkshine, you are doing precisely what you accuse the 'rest of society' of doing to you...you are dismissing and sneering at people who are different from you!!

 

Bid :)

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justine1   

I agree with Bid (and others) :thumbs:

 

I am NT but I am definatley not a sheep! I don't follow the crowd and have never been popular.My mother is the same,quite eccentric and can get on well with anyone but does not have any real close friends, and my father just keeps to himself and I have never known him to have any friends at all!

 

I never keep up with fashion I buy what I feel comfortable in and don't try and please anyone except for my children. It took me over a year to make a friend when I was working as an HCA,even though I worked over 40hours a week and spoke to the same people everyday. My eldest son had been at the same school for 2.5 years before I felt comfortable with three of the mums there.Unfortunatley I have moved five times since then and have yt to make friends with any other mums arounnd where I live.

 

Luckily I pushed myself to go to full time uni last september and I found it easier to make friends because the people all on the same course have the same interests as me. I managed to make friends with 4 other ladies,all are mums like me, 3 are in my age group and one is a little older.So we have plenty to talk about.

 

I really think everyone is different and so what? Sam,with Aspergers is actually less shy and more popular than I ever was or indeed his older NT brother,does'nt make him any less autistic?

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But if being very sociable and being liked are important to you, then that's your choice. How do you know that the things you see people neglecting are important to them anyway? Just because they are important to you, does not mean they should be important to other people. Like you say, they see things differently to you, and you can't make judgements about whether their lives are fulfilling based on what makes you happy.

Because they told me :)

 

But FD and Darkshine, you are doing precisely what you accuse the 'rest of society' of doing to you...you are dismissing and sneering at people who are different from you!!

 

Bid :)

Totally - I can't argue that, but in the other thread (the sheep one I think) I developed this thinking further by saying that my problem is with "Western" society and not necessarily individuals within that society, although I am judging individuals en masse :rolleyes:

 

An attempt at a better explanation - I don't have a problem with people who are different in different ways - but it is very hard not to judge - people judge me all the time, they judge my looks, how I dress, how I talk, the way I think, what I do and how I act...

 

Do they have their eyes open? I don't always think so... The people I meet that follow popular culture are generally shallow, whether this be old friends who were on the dole or ones that are top dogs in the work they do - they admit it to me - they have moments where they open their eyes and then they aren't happy because they are trapped in their own social constraints.

 

I do not rate a society that rewards the norm as being better than people who do not or cannot conform.

 

And anyway, everyone judges, we all have value systems and personal feelings that we balance with external information, whether that be thoughts on class judgements to judging the way an individual acts - its unavoidable.

 

The thing is - even when people do not agree with me - I am listening to what people say, I add it to the balance and decide the merits of the information provided to me, I take into account their opinions and feelings and weigh them against my own, so at least when people disagree they can know that I take their view into account, whether we agree in the end or not :)

 

Here's an unmoderated opinion of your opinions of moderation...

 

Calling everyone that isn't you a sheep - offensive.

 

Please stop doing it.

I don't think people are sheep I think they are ants - but there are major flaws in this opinion too - I discussed flaws of labels in the "everyone is sheep post" (or titles something similar) :D

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Because they told me :)

 

 

Totally - I can't argue that, but in the other thread (the sheep one I think) I developed this thinking further by saying that my problem is with "Western" society and not necessarily individuals within that society, although I am judging individuals en masse :rolleyes:

 

An attempt at a better explanation - I don't have a problem with people who are different in different ways - but it is very hard not to judge - people judge me all the time, they judge my looks, how I dress, how I talk, the way I think, what I do and how I act...

 

Do they have their eyes open? I don't always think so... The people I meet that follow popular culture are generally shallow, whether this be old friends who were on the dole or ones that are top dogs in the work they do - they admit it to me - they have moments where they open their eyes and then they aren't happy because they are trapped in their own social constraints.

 

I do not rate a society that rewards the norm as being better than people who do not or cannot conform.

 

And anyway, everyone judges, we all have value systems and personal feelings that we balance with external information, whether that be thoughts on class judgements to judging the way an individual acts - its unavoidable.

 

The thing is - even when people do not agree with me - I am listening to what people say, I add it to the balance and decide the merits of the information provided to me, I take into account their opinions and feelings and weigh them against my own, so at least when people disagree they can know that I take their view into account, whether we agree in the end or not :)

 

 

I don't think people are sheep I think they are ants - but there are major flaws in this opinion too - I discussed flaws of labels in the "everyone is sheep post" (or titles something similar) :D

 

That comment wasn't directed at you Darkshine - I am just fed up of Fourthdimension insulting people on this forum over and over again because they don't measure up to his standards. It's hard not to take personal offence when he's lumping everyone under the same label. I've had experience of this kind of judgemental opinion before from a fellow spectrum person(not on this site - irl), and it's nothing to do with autism it's sheer arrogance and downright offensive. Everyone has a right to express themselves on here, but not to the detriment of others.

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Hi Baddad,

 

I agree with that. Your right that it is exercising a degree of moderation "on my own terms" rather than complying to normative social influence and your right some people do like been the victim and victimized. There is a good book on this called "The games that people play" written by Eric Berne. (Anyone who wants a copy i got it on email to share).

 

On the other hand, Personally i dont like playing the victim nor any other role. I seclude my self in my little room so that i dont become the victim.

 

Wel, Baddad looks like I'd get what i wanted because frankly i dont want to be accomodated by people i am perfectly happy in my little bubble. I just like to rant alot :D

 

Maybe it is a pretty dismissive way to treat humanity but i guess am just treating them the same way they treat *"me".

 

if my dad done that to me and told me where i could ram it , i d turn back round and personally assist him in practical way and show him where he could raam it too :D Because Baddad children , your son or whatever, were all entitled to our expression of free speech and also choice and in not allowing them to decide for themselves is totally wrong and if your son did turn around and say that to you then maybe bowlby was right and it means something is wrong with the parenting and not the child

 

does nt say much for my mam and dad.

 

Thanks

 

Hey Darkshine :D Thank you because thats exactly how i see things aswell.

Your right about obsessions and that they can become harmful. I dont know if there would be a difference in the example you used . What do you think would be the outcome?

 

I suppose thinking in a normal way is different than both shallow and obsessional because i think that obsessional or shallow thinking has alot of affectionate distortion because we feel passionate about the object or goal more and we become more judgemental to people who dont agree with us because i guess obsession and shallowness are ways of percieving things and we make them so much a part of us that seeing things in a different manner such as the normal way of seeing a box is just a box not a work of masterpiece but for the obsessor it is his masterpiece and saying otherwise is offensive to him or her because their obsessions become a possession of their own with a great degree of significance.

 

I think there cant be a normal way in seeing things but maybe an interlocking circle of norms that most NT's abide by for example they all have different normalities than each other and than us but there more ontop of each other all the time which makes normative and informative social influence more influential because of proximity, functional or physical, similarity, circumstance and association and positive reinforcement been stronger than if the person lived without much socialbillity like many here live, including myself.

 

I think these influences just tie them and make stronger bonds to society like a drug they become dependant on it. acting in a way to be postively reinforced by the social group or internalising a best friend or lover changing them from who they are to who society wants them to be.

 

So in the end i think that even if they do have a cause or a goal to reach it will still be highly influenced by the peer groups and the reinforcement given by them or maybe just for the reason of positive reinforcement.

 

Obsessional thoughts have less social ties because you dont internalise the social group into yourself but instead you internalise the desired goal or object making this your life and feeling passionate towards the cause and of course its easier to get lost in your obsession without those social ties to tell us when we have gone too far

 

Shallow thoughts i think shallowness is where something has went wrong in there life and someone has negatively reinforced a shallow perception of the world onto them or positively reinforced this and it has passion just as much as obsession does but the passion is much easier to turn to hatred.

 

I understand how you feel about anger and i use to do the same but since i have been realising it more often i have felt much better. :D

 

Your right a few people in society are ok but usually they aren't part of society just a passer-by who meets a companion traveller and stop for a cup of coffee. they dont actively participate in society as a blind follower of the crowd.

 

I guess it is unfair to punish people for something that they are unaware of but when they realise what they are doing wrong they then have the chance to change it and if they still hurt you regardless of having been made aware then they deserve to be punished haha :D

 

Your true it is easier to get on with life and pretend but unless you knew what it was like to live life without pretence you wont be able to decide wether its just better to pretend.

 

hugs x

 

Tally - Thats very true and your 100% right

 

Hi Bid - Wrong , were not sneering at society, were sneering back at society. Its not really the same thing

 

Hey justine, I m glad your life is going well and the sheep i talk about is nt all NT people and it includes some aspies . i just generalized the ignorant and arrogant people who go on living their lifes jumping through social hoops been ignorant and sneering down upon intelect and awareness. If your son has AS or HFA then that still means you could have it do a degree and so could your mother thus eccentricity but even if you dont have it, my rant was not directed at NT's such as yourself as your not a sheep if you think for yourself rather than society thinking for you and thats the distinction i was trying to make not the distinction between aspies and NT's .

 

Matzoball - Here is a moderated oppinion of your unmoderated oppinion on my idea ofm moderation

so bid thinks i am speaking for all aspies and was said in another post and now your saying am calling anyone who is nt me a sheep so i in fact think that the problem is nt anything but the fact that you want to take it in an offensive way and as was said earlier on i am entitled to my oppinions and expressions and if you dont like it you simply dont have to read it but maybe if you did read it you would nt thinking i was calling anyone who was not me a sheep

 

thats the ignorance am talking about. at least read the thing before hating me

 

p.s. if it makes you feel better i could comply with Darkshine and call them ants instead

 

and darkshine - "The thing is - even when people do not agree with me - I am listening to what people say, I add it to the balance and decide the merits of the information provided to me, I take into account their opinions and feelings and weigh them against my own, so at least when people disagree they can know that I take their view into account, whether we agree in the end or not " this is totally the way i do things :D

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bid   

OK, apologies to everyone, but now I am TETCHY!! :fight: Sorry mods if you need to edit...

 

FD and Darkshine, you have both written at great length, dismissing huge numbers of people as shallow, desperate, unimaginative and much more, sneeringly calling them 'ants' or 'sheep'.

 

I'm afraid I find your arrogance absolutely breathtaking...and you are so arrogant that you can't even see the hypocrisy of your opinions.

 

I will give you a concrete example. The majority of my colleagues are young adults in their early twenties. Some of the young women have hair extensions and fake nails, some of them even read 'Heat' and 'OK' :o ...in other words, the very sort of people that you dismiss if we believe everything you have both written above. Every day these young women look after children and young people with the most severe of learning disabilities, feed them, attend to every aspect of their personal care, support them through severe epileptic seizures, administer emergency intervention medication in the case of life-threatening seizures, get punched, slapped and bitten. They do all this with good humour and compassion.

 

So, who is the most shallow? You, for judging people by their appearance and making sweeping assumptions about them when you know nothing about their lives whatsoever? Or these girls who do a job that frankly most people wouldn't be able to hack, just because they like a bit of sparkly nail polish, straightened hair and celeb gossip??

 

(And for the sake of balance, there are plenty of young staff with multiple piercings and tatoos, about whom a lot of people might make equally sweeping assumptions. And we have just as many young men whom I'm sure you would also dismiss as ants or sheep, but they don't have fake nails...).

 

And I have to say, neither of you come across as being particularly happy people within your world-view...something to think about perhaps?

 

Bid :wallbash:

Edited by bid

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That comment wasn't directed at you Darkshine - I am just fed up of Fourthdimension insulting people on this forum over and over again because they don't measure up to his standards. It's hard not to take personal offence when he's lumping everyone under the same label. I've had experience of this kind of judgemental opinion before from a fellow spectrum person(not on this site - irl), and it's nothing to do with autism it's sheer arrogance and downright offensive. Everyone has a right to express themselves on here, but not to the detriment of others.

That's ok, I just thought I should put my hand up and take my share of the blame :) hope things are improving for you at work :thumbs:

 

Your right about obsessions and that they can become harmful. I dont know if there would be a difference in the example you used . What do you think would be the outcome?

I think obsessions and moderation are kinda linked in some ways - like my video game example.

 

If you play a game obsessively then other people in your life miss out on your company, things get neglected, its probably unhealthy.

 

If you play a game moderately, then it can be fun, and taking part in wider interests (in the time now free from playing the game) it would be healthier and nicer for the people around you.

 

Whether a person has AS or not makes little difference - I think certain obsessions are harmful if moderation doesn't curb them. Which means that if life were to have no moderation whatsoever then a lot of things could go wrong.

 

(it's late - short sentences cuz I'm excessively sleep deprived now so may also be talking a pile of shhhhhh)

 

FD and Darkshine, you have both written at great length, dismissing huge numbers of people as shallow, desperate, unimaginative and much more, sneeringly calling them 'ants' or 'sheep'.

 

I'm afraid I find your arrogance absolutely breathtaking...and you are so arrogant that you can't even see the hypocrisy of your opinions.

It's like this... you are looking at specific examples of people you know, people who may or may not fit into a stereotype, and conveniently people who do hard work and have brilliant skills for doing so. I was not referring to these people specifically.

 

The reason I can cope with my viewpoint is because its like looking at a piece of bacteria under a microscope, you zoom out and you see more, zoom out further you see whole colonies, if you keep zooming right out you see the mouldy bread its living on... That's what I'm doing - in a clinical way as possible. Of course you zoom right back on in and whoa - there's penicillin - something of such value and worth - just like some people - but I'm not zooming in on this thread, I'm keeping it with numbers from hundreds to tens of millions under the lens, there's no need to take it personal for I am not trying to insult anyone (or attack for that matter) unfortunately I cannot come across as the right way to everyone at any given time, some people agree, most probably won't on this one ;) its just a good job I hadn't heard of forums when I was FD's age - if you'd seen my views back then you'd get really tetchy :D

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bid   

 

It's like this... you are looking at specific examples of people you know, people who may or may not fit into a stereotype, and conveniently people who do hard work and have brilliant skills for doing so. I was not referring to these people specifically.

 

No, Darkshine, my post was to give you a concrete example of what happens when you pre-judge other people, as you and FD have done in all your posts in these three current threads. I used my job as it is what I am most familiar with, but the same thing is replicated throughout society, both in many and varied professional scenarios and on an individual basis. You simply cannot dismiss a whole raft of people because they are different from you.

 

FD and Darkshine, the views you have both expressed in these current threads are no less offensive and discriminatory than racism or sexism. Go through your posts and replace the term 'NT'/'other people' with the term 'black people', or 'men/women'...or 'disabled people'? You would then see just how prejudiced and offensive those views really are.

 

FD, you say that you are entitled to your opinion and have a right to express that opinion...this is certainly true. But if you choose to do so on a public forum, then you must expect public comment and disagreement with those views.

 

Neither of you come across as particularly happy people, and indeed you have both posted extensively about unhappiness. I'm very sorry if you are indeed both unhappy, but in all honesty, I don't see how continuing to hold the views that you do will ever help you to find personal contentment.

 

Bid :)

Edited by bid

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No, Darkshine, my post was to give you a concrete example of what happens when you pre-judge other people, as you and FD have done in all your posts in these three current threads. I used my job as it is what I am most familiar with, but the same thing is replicated throughout society, both in many and varied professional scenarios and on an individual basis. You simply cannot dismiss a whole raft of people because they are different from you.

 

FD and Darkshine, the views you have both expressed in these current threads are no less offensive and discriminatory than racism or sexism. Go through your posts and replace the term 'NT'/'other people' with the term 'black people', or 'men/women'...or 'disabled people'? You would then see just how prejudiced and offensive those views really are.

I knew when I posted my opinion that it would not be popular, but it is merely an opinion, I do not act it out, I do not join extremist groups with similar philosophies, its just thoughts inside my head and the fact that FD was holding similar ones intrigued me - I also disagree with him to a degree about moderation - and also in the other thread on the term sheep - can you honestly say you think fairly of everyone in the world all the time? can you say you never judge? have you never dared voice that judgement? honestly?

 

Neither of you come across as particularly happy people, and indeed you have both posted extensively about unhappiness. I'm very sorry if you are indeed both unhappy, but in all honesty, I don't see how continuing to hold the views that you do will ever help you to find personal contentment.

Because in these examples the image is zoomed right out it doesn't relate to what you are saying - if I was talking about more specific groups of people (since communities or the western social world include anything from several thousands up to millions and millions) then I could understand the problem. Maybe its because its too broad? Like making sweeping generalisations? I'm only reacting to what I see and experience... Just because that includes some fantastic people by default does not mean that I am trying to insult anyone specifically.

 

I try regularly to challenge my thinking on this and just cannot find the evidence to alter it much - it just doesn't add up or make sense, its all wrong...

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