Lying, Secrets, Conscience & Empathy

[darkshine]

These things have been mentioned on this forum, but mainly in relation to another subject and I'm interested how they directly relate to ASDs.

 

I guess I'm asking if people with autism have difficulties with these areas in any way - like is this a common thing for people on the spectrum?

 

Can you lie? Can you keep a secret? Do you have a conscience? Can you be empathetic?

 

Can you choose? Can you decide? Is it a rational process? Do you have to pretend? And if you do pretend then isn't that lying? Isn't keeping a secret sometimes lying? If that doesn't bother you, does it mean you have a faulty conscience? And is empathy related to this - by pretending to care when you don't - well that's lying again, or hiding your real feelings, back to secrets and conscience - because its not nice to tell someone you don't care is it?

 

And round it goes, so I'll be good and stop here

[AdamJ]

Trouble sleeping again, darkshine? Me too!

 

Short answers from me:

 

I don't tell people I'm AS unless with good reason. I don't consider that to be a sin on my conscience.

 

I do try to behave like an NT as best I can. Rightly or wrongly, that doesn't prick my conscience.

 

I can't remember the last time I was told a 'serious' secret (e.g. not counting things like surprise parties) so that issue doesn't really arise for me.

 

Empathy is an area of difficulty for me - I'm probably too honest for my own good.

 

Am I capable of lying? Yes, but I typically don't recognise situations when lying would be in the interests of either myself or others. Consequently, I don't think I lie very often and when I do, they're 'white' lies, not big whoppers.

 

One thing you didn't ask is whether you can spot other people's lies. I can't - I take everything that is said to me at face value. This opens me to potential manipulation and abuse, which has happened several times in my past.

[darkshine]

Hi Adam

 

Your opening line made me laugh - yes I was totally having difficulty sleeping again - same as you I think one of the few times I do get to sleep early is when I'm ill

 

I don't even know why I posted this I guess cuz I am kinda interested...

 

I tend to go from one extreme to another - and I do not trust easily, everyone is a threat until they are proved not to be kinda thing.

 

I know what you mean about manipulation and abuse - its a scary thing when some things people do seem true and honest and turn out not to be, and when so many things just don't make sense either, I think that's why I don't trust people easily.

 

I feel like my social life is built on lies because of everything I don't say - mainly this does not bother me, but there's the odd times that it does bother me.

 

Take tonight.... I have my parents staying, there's 5 of us in the house, some bright spark suggested doing beans with cheese on toast (I will avoid outlining all the logistical difficulties with this but there were lots and I was already stressed before it was "cooked") so I'm on bean duty and I accidentally poured beans all over my toast - it stressed me out to a 9 out if 10, I thought I could handle it so I went and sat down, turned out I couldn't handle it, I suddenly got this urge to rescue the bl**dy toast, but then I couldn't move because I had a plate on my knee and a piece of toast in each hand - at this point I want to scream and launch the whole dinner at the wall, I shout for a plate to the person in the kitchen, who doesn't hear me, so I slap the toast in the beans, stomp through and do it myself.

 

In my stress I didn't realise I'd burned my hands on the molten cheese, so I have bright red hands that kill, and my stress levels are now at an 11 out of 10 so I proceed to cut off all the wet bits, leaving me hardly any dinner, I somehow managed to sit down and eat half of it - if there wasn't so many people staring I'd have launched it and gone hungry, I could barely breathe and my mind had gone onto a white noise thing it bothered me that much...

 

Its funny how some of these things can be sort of funny afterwards, I can see the funny side, and it was totally my fault, and my hands are fine but still...

 

Not many people in my life who I could admit that to IYKWIM

[indiscreet]

Can you lie? Can you keep a secret? Do you have a conscience? Can you be empathetic?

 

I have no problem with lying if it's connected with AS - if someone is pressuring me to go to a social event or if there has been a 'compulsory' bonding weekend connected with work. In those circumstances I have absolutely no conscience about lying.

 

Same with 'pretending/copying/faking - it's a survival mechanism since it isn't my fault I was born of the wrong planet.

 

I have problems with empathy - when people respond to a situation emotionally rather than rationally - but I can relate to other people's genuine worries or griefs since I'm well aware what it's like to feel those emotions.

[darkshine]

Do you/other people reckon they are areas directly connected to AS? Like does having AS make these things harder in some way - maybe different ways for different people - but are they common features?

[butterfly73]

Do you/other people reckon they are areas directly connected to AS? Like does having AS make these things harder in some way - maybe different ways for different people - but are they common features?

A strong conscience.. yep, thus not being able to lie (though not uttering the whole truth is possible) or keeping secrets or surprises very well.. also having difficulty with others telling social lies (" I'm doing fine"); in some difficulty in understanding religions, for most basic of rules have been and are violated.. In others: difficulty to trust others.. for they tell social lies so easily.. when do yhey speak the truth?

[darkshine]

The social lies are unavoidable for me - even when I don't understand the social lies I get in return

 

Like your example "I'm doing fine"... in my experience people do not want to know how I am doing, and if I tell them, they don't know what to say. So to the question "How are you?" I have learnt that saying "I'm fine how are you?" is a lot simpler and people seem to be more comfortable with that response, even when 9 times out of 10 I'm lying.

 

Failing that I just hedge the question by making some gesture or noise of acknowledgement and then repeating the question to them, often throws a lot of people off guard, thereby avoiding the lie

[RainbowsButterflies]

I either mumble that I'm fine, or say something along the lines of 'I'm still here' if they are people I'm closer to which is my way of saying that I'm feeling ###### but I'm not whinging about it, but they asked so I'm not going to lie.

 

I'm not *too* bad in following the social niceties myself, but what I really hate is all the two-facedness, and all the politics. I don't get it, and am completely oblivious to it. If someone doesn't like me then so what? Enough people do, so why pretend and then ###### behind my back? I can work professionally with someone I don't like personally, why do other people have all the issues?

[darkshine]

I think sometimes people moaning about people behind their backs can be ok - but if its all the time then its dumb - but then there's a big difference in a playful moan, and outright back-stabbing...

 

I think moaning is ok, but being malicious isn't.

 

That's where lying gets confusing cuz pretending to get on with someone we don't like is lying but if we were honest then it'd cause major problems sometimes! Not to mention how to decide to be honest - cause honesty in everything isn't possible without upsetting a lot of people sometimes - its almost like you have to lie - except other people don't see it as lying maybe

[shas]

I agree totally with snowdon.

[darkshine]

Hey Do you mean Adam or Indiscreet - (member name is just above the mountain names - I use the word mountain loosely)

 

Not sure if you've seen this so I'll add the explanation below

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/Index.php?/topic/26772-member-titles/

 

Best

 

Darkshine

[Special_talent123]

I can answer that one, I have also had a report saying this- That I am unable to make a lie because it requires imagination to lie, but if they ask me something i go quiet so being quiet isnt really lying... just not saying anything then they know something is up but i wouldnt make something up.

[darkshine]

Lying seems to have a lot of grey areas... I'm terrible at making some things up, I can't make an elaborate lie, I just can't think of what I would say.

 

Whenever I do lie its usually to questions like - how are you?

 

Or its when people ask things that I can answer in my head, but I cannot say out loud, so when I can't say it I just select random words from the truth that people don't understand - and where the lie comes in is that I often just make out like they got what I was saying when really they didn't.

 

And also with the not saying things - sometimes it can be deceit cuz of not saying something.

 

There seems to be a hell of a lot of rules and sub-rules to lying - where some lies are ok but something very similar isn't ok, and different situations making some things ok and other things not ok - it gets pretty confusing.

 

My other lies are to do with social niceties - like when someone asks me how they look - I have learnt that when I can't do subtle - its best to lie - otherwise I'd upset everyone because they don't like the truth - but this is not an exact science and I often end up insulting people without meaning to

Edited January 10, 2012 by darkshine

[coradia]

Can you lie? Can you keep a secret? Do you have a conscience? Can you be empathetic?

 

I'm a very poor liar, and as others have echoed, it's limited to social lies. It actually took me some time to learn it's actually all a script that NTs follow as a soft introduction. A form of courtesy, nothing more. I haven't been "fine" in a long time, except when engaging with escapism!

 

I have a sense of loyalty with friends and family so I will do my best to keep secrets. I am capable of simple lies like "Don't really know, xxx never mentioned it."

 

One thing you didn't ask is whether you can spot other people's lies. I can't - I take everything that is said to me at face value. This opens me to potential manipulation and abuse, which has happened several times in my past.

 

I do have a hightened sense of morality (normal for AS) and feel extremely hurt when people get up to no good. I'm too trusting and cannot see through other peoples actions and beyond their nice facade. Got screwed over in a flatshare (still ongoing) as I've been ripped off for the past 15 months, especially by a guy whom I've known for years and made me question my faith in Christianity sometimes.

 

I can only be emphatic when I've gone through similar situations that others are suffering from. I used to think depression and aspergers were a load of excuses (well, I'm East Asian afterall and they don't believe in this stuff), until I experienced/realised first hand. Now, I'm capable of empathy with depressed people and AS. The one group of people most NTs do not have empathy for are suicidal people. I can understand why people do it, and feel sorry for the dead person - as in life must have been really hard for them. The typical NT reaction I experienced is "People who suicide on the tube are so inconsiderate by delaying everyone else." As if suicidal people on the absolute brink would be capable of "rational" thought at this stage - ridiculous!

Edited January 11, 2012 by coradia

[Kimmy.82]

Well, I know I can lie with a perfect straight face. I can make up a story, given enough time, to make it sound quite true. I was so scared of drama class at school, that in the morning I would sit in bed and remeber what it feels like to have tummy ache or something minor but good enough to hear the words " I think you'd better stay home today" Then keeping up the facade all day. I even started to turn my bedside lamp on place my hand on the bulb, not for too long!, and as I heard my mum coming to wake me, I'd slap my very hot hand on my head and cheeks, then tell her I felt sick and far too hot, then she would look at me, I think deciding if I were lying, then she would check my temperature... which was a little high for school. I found that out from accidently touching the bulb and burning myself.

Keeping a secret, in my mind if I am told something and they say "keep it to yourself" or "don't repeat that to anyone" I would not tell anyone. I have been told to do something, it is a rule an order and I obey it like it is an order.

Conscience, yes I feel guilt. I sometimes, after lying about being sick to get out of school, would become quite sick and have a horrible feeling inside, but I would do the same thing again. If I had a secret that would make someones life a lot easier to know, I would feel guilty for not saying anything but I wouldn't break the rule.

Empathy... I have watched other people upset by things and not felt anything myself. I wouldn't be rude to them and demand to know why, but I couldn't comfort or say anything noce to them either.

I don't know if this is related but I feel at times I can switch off emotions. I loved my grandfather a lot, he was a great man who liked me and treated me like an adult from early in life because I loved to learn and help him with his crosswords. I lived with him and my grandmother for a few years and spent many hours watching documentaries with him. I was at the hospital at the foot of his bed when he died, the nurse came over to our little group and simply said "He's gone now". Everyone else, including my mum who had a stroke causing a brain injury also at the hospital, cried. I stood there, nothing. I didn't even question why I felt nothing, I just knew I didn't. I left the room and my family there, I took my mum back to her ward and left her telling the staff on her ward why she was upset, so I could make a lot of phone calls. To his children that weren't there, his siblings and anyone else whom I believed needed to know. No one asked me to do it, I just got on with it. In some cases I had to tell the person face to face, speaking with as much emotion as a robot saying "I am sorry to tell you but Gerald passed away" one cousin threw her arms around me and collapsed crying. Without comment I helped her to a chair and made her a cup of tea. I spent several days finding people and telling them. My Gran thanked me a few weeks later for what I did, that I was a rock for her and eased pressure on her life. I told her it was nothing and had to be done. And that is how I felt. It didn't bother me at all. I did cry later, I thought I heard his voice and for a split second thought he was downstairs, I threw a dressing gown on and ran to the living room to find his chair empty. I sat in it and cried. And I know I was being a little calus in my mind on the day of his funeral. I was told, not asked, to go and visit mum because she wasn't able to go to say that last goodbye. I didn't want to, why should I? I wanted to watch the house while everyone was out, eat dinner and make tea for everyone when they got back.

 

Sorry for waffling on, I tend to do that.

I doubt I helped answer your questions but that is how I can best describe how these things are to me in my mind.

[darkshine]

For me empathy is something inside that is like a switch, sometimes it flicks to "on" when it needs to, sometimes I have to make an effort to switch it "on" and sometimes it won't switch on no matter how much I try.

 

It's something that comes in handy sometimes because it means I can cope when everyone else is falling apart, but I know it makes me look callous and unfeeling sometimes - which isn't good. . .

[littleplum]

A funny thing: I feel compelled to return to a shop if they give me even a tiny bit too much change. I could be out in the street when I notice. Yet I will return and try to attract the cashier's attention and then explain what has happened. The look of disbelief on their faces is priceless. Some even get annoyed!

 

I don't know if that is honesty or some quirk in my mind that likes order and balance.

[darkshine]

I've done that before

[Kimmy.82]

Me too. I bought my dinner from the local chip shop. I got my £10 that I handed over and the change from the £10. I took the money back a little later that day. Even though my family thought I was insane for doing it. I got a free bottle of pop and an extra big fish next time I wanted one. Honesty pays.