Does "Behavioural, Emotional and Social Difficulties" include ASD?

[bed32]

We had a meeting with the LA about our son's draft statement -- including discussion about his placement.

 

They agree that there is not really any appropriate placement for him within the borough but did mention a new school that is supposed to be up and running in September to cater for primary children with "Behavioural, Emotional and Social Difficulties" - including HFA, and said that M might be a suitable candidate for the school.

 

Does anyone know what sort of provision the school is likely to make and whether it is likely to be appropriate for a gifted ASD child?

 

Our experience is that most specialist provision at the primary level is more focussed at MLD/SpLD and really not appropriate for AS(D).

 

It seems very difficult for parents if a placement is suggested at a school that doesn't even exist, let alone have an established track record. Makes it virtually impossible to argue against a placement there!

[JeanneA]

Hi, no behavioural, Emotional and Social Difficulties does not include ASD unless you have got a diagnosis for ASD. On my son's statement is says he has ASD and has learning, behavioural, emotional and social difficulties, so you really need ASD to be on the statement it is very important as I've found. Originally when my son's statement was first written ASD wasn't on there just the other difficulties that I've mentioned, so a few years down the line I asked for the statement to be amended to include Glen has ASD.

 

I'm afraid I do not know if the provision will be suitable for your child or not, it is a difficult one, it would be best to find out as much as you can about this provision and then make the decision if it is suitable for your child. You do need to try and find out about other schools to see if you can find a better one, you need to do it now especially before your child's statement is finalised.

[Sally44]

Children can have behavioural, emotional and social difficulties without being on the autistic spectrum. That could be due to a number of things including neglect, poor upbringing, oppositional/defiance disorder, personality disorder etc.

 

And some with have co-morbid diagnoses including behaviour, emotional and social disorders.

 

Some on the spectrum also have behavioural, emotional and social difficulties, but it is due to the neurological differences which is autism, or due to an inability to cope with sensory overload. So it is coming from a completely different cause. And so needs a completely different approach.

 

And many children with an ASD with these difficulties, often find that they improve or disappear once they are in an ASD specific placement that meets their needs.

 

So I would be VERY careful if the LA are lumping ALL children with behavioural, emotional and social difficulties. They could be the children that end up with ASBOS etc - that is simplistic, but the best way I could try to describe the difference.

 

Find out things like how many on the role have an ASD [difficult if it isn't even open].

How many members of staff have an additional qualification for teaching pupils with autism on top of their teaching qualification.

What therapies are on site.

What autism specific teaching approaches are used as standard.

What social communication programmes are used and are they ASD specific.

 

TBH, I would probably not agree to such a placement, especially as it is not even open and you have no idea of who could be in there. Can you get a copy of the admission criteria for the school.

 

For my own son, I said that although he can get very upset himself, he does not hit or attack people, and that he would be very frightened if he saw another pupil do that to another child or teacher. He is very black and white about rules and would grass on other children being naughty which could make him a target. He would be very scared to see a pupil restrained [as can be a common occurance if ALL the children have behavioural and emotional problems].

 

At my son's current school there are some pupils on the role who have these types of difficulties.

 

My son is in a class which is termed 'vulnerable' and they never come into contact with those other pupils because historically they used to bully and threaten them! And ALL of the children are on the spectrum at this school. But there are a large number of 'cared for' children who are boarding, and I presume that is because the LA could not cope with them.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Sally44

[Kazzen161]

Is the school going to be run by the LA or by an independent group? Whichever - are there are other similar schools run by them?

 

If it is to be available from Sept the HT/T in charge might well already be appointed. Ask if you can speak to them.

 

How confident are you that the unit WILL be ready for Sept (if you google you can sometimes find info eg: through CC meeting minutes of how it is progressing).

 

How many places are available and how many children will be fighting for those palces (I knew of 20 parents who had all been promised one of the two paces for their child!).

 

A unit was suggested for my son during Yr 6 for the following sept, but it did not open for another year after that. I spoke to the HT of the unit (who did not think they coudl meet my son's needs) and went to a unit in a neighbouring LA (which my LA said was similar) and it coudl not meet my son's needs. Both units required the children to be in the mainstream part for some of the time, and one of them expected the children to be in the playground with only someone watching them from an upstairs window.

 

I did not want my son to be their guinea-pig.

 

BESD units may be able to meet his needs but it will very much depend on their ethos. I know of some SEBD schools that understand ASD, but there are also many who treat them in the same way as children with EBD due to neglect, abuse, poor parenting, etc and the same strategies don't work for both in my opinion.

[bed32]

The school is being set up and run by the LA - and you have to praise them for at least making an attempt to plug a gaping hole in their provision - but whether I want M to be a guinea-pig is a different matter. The strategy stoates that it will hold 50 pupils but there is very little information available. The LA SEN person we spoke to today says that it was still supposed to be opening in September but couldn't give any details at all - they have been trying to identify possible pupils - and had identified a few - so not going to be oversubscribed.

 

The LA has a very poor record with SEN, so there is no track record either in that school or any other they control - and the person we spoke to was unable to give any information about the staff or anything else for that matter - all of which makes me think while it MAY open in September, it won't be Sept 2012.

 

Superficially M does have behavioural problems - it is there on the (draft) statement - however what is clear - and also stated explicitly in the diagnosis. is that these are symptoms of the ASD. I am not convinced that the approach required for an ASD child is the same as that for one whose emotional/behavioural problems. There are specific and clearly identified issues with his thought processes that need to be addressed - strategies that focus on the behaviour rather than the thought patterns are bound to fail.

 

Clearly they can't impose a placement there on us - but once it is running it could make it harder for us to argue for other specialist provision.

[Sally44]

Having a copy of their admissions criteria, and getting a letter from the LA answering the questions myself and Kazzen have posted will go some way to giving a picture of what the school MAY be like.

 

And also your argument that it is not suitable is also going to be that the LA cannot give you any evidence that it is suitable for your son.

 

Similar behaviours can have vastly different causes. A child may have little social skills due to neglect whilst a child with an ASD will have similar difficulties due to neurological differences. Both children cannot be taught using the same strategies.

 

For example, on a different subject, my son's former school put him on a reading programme that the LA EP service had devised themselves from the research carried out by Essex University, which had demonstrated major improvement with literacy skills for a number of children with low literacy performance.

 

However when I searched the LA website [sometimes, as Kazzen says, you can find some very interesting things on the LA website when you do a search], I found a report from the EP department which gave examples of progress particular children had made whilst on the programme. What I noticed immediately was that these children were from a none English background, who had recently come to the UK. My son is autistic, with a speech disorder, and with dyslexia. This programme was never devised for these types of difficulties. It was devised for children who were falling behind in literacy due to English not being their native language, and the programme was supposed to be delivered as a 'whole class learning approach.' My LA were withdrawing ASD children from class to be in a group led by a TA where they had to sit and chant phonics. So they had altered the programme so much that it no longer even resembled the original research.

 

And to confirm that I spoke to two members of the original research team and asked them if their research was carried out on any children with an ASD. They said they did not use this population of children and the reading programme was not devised to meet both an ASD or Dyslexia and that it was supposed to be whole class learning led by a qualified teacher.

 

My son never made any progress on that programme - but the LA wanted to continue using it. I proved it was not appropriate. We asked for 1:1 SALT and 1:1 specialist teaching from a Dyslexia teacher qualified to both teach and assess - and that is what we got.

 

SEND look at needs almost like a mathematical equation. IE. A is the need and B is the suitable provision that is typically delivered and proven successful for need A. And Provison B is typically delivered by C [the suitably qualified professional]. For example, my son's Proposed Statement said that the school would use colour coded words to meet my son's dyslexia needs. And that by using colour coded words that demonstrated a "multi-sensory approach" to literacy. No it didn't. What is typically provided for severe dyslexia is itemised in both the SEN Code of Practice and the Jim Rose report regarding Dyslexia. That is specialist teaching. And that specialist teaching has to be delivered by a suitably qualified teacher that can both teach and assess [because if you cannot assess how can you record progress and monitor outcomes?]. Colour coding words maybe a very minute part of the whole dyslexia programme.

 

So you do need to do alot of digging because the LA are not going to hand you the information you need on a plate.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Sally44

[bed32]

At present it is very hard to find anything out about the school. It is mentioned in the LAs published strategy which was distributed to us by PP - with a target start date of Sept 2012 - our named SEN inclusion officer knows nothing more about it but says that it is still "on track" and they are looking to identify candidates.

 

Looking at the range of therapies we would like for M (SALT, OT, Social Communication, Behaviour...) it is very difficult to see how they can provided properly in his current mainstream environment even if we get them all added to the statement. What has impressed us about specialised schools is that these are built into the day-to-day life of the school in a way that can't happen for an individual pupil in a mainstream setting.

[Canopus]

They agree that there is not really any appropriate placement for him within the borough but did mention a new school that is supposed to be up and running in September to cater for primary children with "Behavioural, Emotional and Social Difficulties" - including HFA, and said that M might be a suitable candidate for the school.

 

Does anyone know what sort of provision the school is likely to make and whether it is likely to be appropriate for a gifted ASD child?

 

I soon as I read this the alarm bells sounded very loud. Emotional and Behavioural Difficulties (EBD) is NOT the same thing as ASD. They are completely different as EBD kids are NT.

 

Superficially M does have behavioural problems - it is there on the (draft) statement - however what is clear - and also stated explicitly in the diagnosis. is that these are symptoms of the ASD. I am not convinced that the approach required for an ASD child is the same as that for one whose emotional/behavioural problems. There are specific and clearly identified issues with his thought processes that need to be addressed - strategies that focus on the behaviour rather than the thought patterns are bound to fail.

 

Correct. I attended an EBD residential school during the early 1990s and it was a very unpleasant experience. The school was unsuitable for my needs and did not provide the help and support I needed although the academic standards were quite high. Many problems resulting from ASD were put down as laziness or low standards. The philosophy of the school was not to teach social and life skills as they would develop naturally (they don't in ASD kids) with time in a disciplined environment. Read some of my old posts from 2005 to 2007 for more info about the school.

[Shnoing]

I soon as I read this the alarm bells sounded very loud. Emotional and Behavioural Difficulties (EBD) is NOT the same thing as ASD. They are completely different as EBD kids are NT.

...

I second that. EBD might include ADHD, but mostly it's more very loud and aggressive children, who are "poisonous" for children on the spectrum. DON'T put him there.

[bed32]

I second that. EBD might include ADHD, but mostly it's more very loud and aggressive children, who are "poisonous" for children on the spectrum. DON'T put him there.

The odd thing is that the strategy is for EBD and HFA - sounds like an impossible mixture.

 

However I am sure the parents of most of the children in M's class would say that he is very loud and aggressive

 

The difference being of course that in a quiet environment the ASD child will settle immediately and cease to be loud and aggressive

[julieann]

A pupil with Asperger's Syndrome I supported in mainstream dual placed at an EBD school in Yr 9 and was frightened of the pupils in her class who would suddenly shout out or throw things around.

ASD pupils like to know in advance what is going to happen and EBD pupils are often quite loud and angry pupil's prone to sudden out bursts.

[Kazzen161]

Have you tried googling the school? You would be amazed at what you can find out eg: from minutes of the LA sen, education or finance committees. You may find the truth about when it might be ready to open.

 

I cannot see how they have not already appointed at least a head teacher if it is to start in Sept, and I woudl have thought teachers would have had to give a terms notice, so they should also have been appointed by now and how could they appoint teachers withour telling them what the school is going to be like?

[Canopus]

I second that. EBD might include ADHD, but mostly it's more very loud and aggressive children, who are "poisonous" for children on the spectrum. DON'T put him there.

 

Most of the EBD kids at my residential school were yobs and thugs from council estates who were clearly NT.

 

The odd thing is that the strategy is for EBD and HFA - sounds like an impossible mixture.

 

More like is an impossible picture. I have first hand experience.

[bed32]

Have you tried googling the school? You would be amazed at what you can find out eg: from minutes of the LA sen, education or finance committees. You may find the truth about when it might be ready to open.

 

I cannot see how they have not already appointed at least a head teacher if it is to start in Sept, and I woudl have thought teachers would have had to give a terms notice, so they should also have been appointed by now and how could they appoint teachers withour telling them what the school is going to be like?

Googling produces nothing - I am not even sure of the name. The original strategy document gave it one name 12 months ago, but the LA person thought it was called something completely different - that has no Google presence at all.

 

All of this would seem to make it highly unlikely that the school will be starting in September - but the nature of such a school is that it is almost certain to have a "soft start" - it would be very difficult for it to start up on day one with a full role.

 

What is surprising/shocking is that the LA inclusion officer doesn't know - she just thinks that it is still on track. Surely they should know - this is a major initiative in primary SEN provision in the borough. If it were really starting they should be at the forefront of identifying candidates.

 

All of which suggests that this won't happen immediately - and is unlikely to be impact us - they couldn't send him there without out agreeing either. When it actually exists we can look at it in more detail.

[chris54]

Where we use to live they decided to reorganise all the schools. A time table was set out. It finally all happened about 3 years behind schedule. Long after we had moved away.

So if a LA announces it is opening a new school in 1 year expect it to happen in 3 or 4 years. Until the first child walks in the door, don't believe it.

[chris54]

If it were a new school on a new site it would have had to have had planing permission. So there should be a record of that, you could ask the planing department for details. Some LA now have all Planing Applications on line. If it is a completely new school you would expect it to normally take something like 4 years from conception to completion.

 

It may be a "New school" but withing the premises of an existing school. Running along side it.

 

Not quite the same thing but our LA has this idea that Autism units will be integrated into the whole school. Meaning that they will exist as a separate entity but will not have a separate space, they will be dispersed withing the existing school. (Many think this is not exactly the best of ideas)

Edited May 6, 2012 by chris54

[justine1]

I agree with everyone else really. Sam was got his statement in 2010 when he was in year 3,he just started at an ASD unit when we had to move. When I moved there was only one ASD unit nearby which I was not happy to send him to and so he was out of school for 6mths while I looked around. I went to look at a EBD school recommended by the SEN officer,they suggested this because of Sam's aggression, I travelled 45min to see the school. The building was new and clean and the headteacher seemed great. He sat down with me before showing me around and said he could not understand why they sent me to look at his school,he said he has read Sam's notes and anybody with sense can see his outbursts are due to his ASD nothing else,once there are staff who know about ASD he will be okay. He went on to tell me about how it is a common occurance for teachers to get hit,and pupils fight alot,he explained about how the children are restrained and how this would be inappropriate for an ASD child to witness. He said Sam is likely to get worse at his school. I left knowing it was not right for him and was so grateful for his honesty, I did not even look around in the end. If it was left for the LEA they would have been happy to send him there,I don't even think they ever read Sam's file.

 

Definatley go for ASD specific,thats my advice.

[bed32]

My thread was as much about the concept of trying to combine EBD and HFA - which I found strange, as much about this particular instance.

 

In this case the school (30 places) is to open on a site that previously held a pre school day care centre for SEN children (I think it closed in that role several years ago).

 

The more I look at education the more I feel that for people like M the best approach is a unit with its own space - the mainstream environment is just too busy and overwhelming for him to be in full time. But having such a unit alongside a mainstream school could give the best of both worlds and allow genuinely personalised provision where.

[Sally44]

By googling it, we mean go onto the LA's website and search for it on their website using their internal search option. There should be something about the school as there will have been LA meetings about it, especially if it is supposed to open in September.

[Kazzen161]

 

But having such a unit alongside a mainstream school could give the best of both worlds and allow genuinely personalised provision where.

 

"could" is the operative word. In 3 out of 4 units I saw, there were operational difficulties in actually accessing the mainstream with adequate support. (eg: when the timetables of the two schools did not co-ordinate; havng 1:1 support in the mainstream).

[Sally44]

When I have asked about units 'accessing' mainstream, and tried to get them to be more specific, these are the problems that I came across a number of times.

 

Not teaching in the Unit. Children went to the unit to 'calm down' or because they 'could not cope' full time mainstream. But they were still fed across for some mainstream lessons. To what extent they understood or learnt in those lessons is another matter. But I already knew that my son would not cope in a mainstream class size. And that is where they are for most of the time.

 

At the other units the children were more severly autistic than my son. So when they talked about 'accessing mainstream' what they meant was going with an adult to talk the register to the school office. That was as integrated as those children were and many of them were none verbal.

 

Remember that changes in environment are also going to be difficult for the child to handle. WE may think it gives them more opportunities if they can access two environments, but due to the neurological difficulties that are autism, that becomes part of the problem. So we have to try to look at things through their eyes, and what their strengths and weaknesses are, and not through our own eyes of what we perceive as being appropriate or better.

 

For example, for a child that struggles to make sense of people, environments, concepts, being moved into different classrooms, with different teachers and TAs and peer groups may mean they NEVER understand where they are or what they are doing. My son could not name his TAs after working with them for 3 years in a mainstream classroom environment. When he works 1:1 with people he learns their names within about a fortnight. And this is also due to problems with generalisation. Again I found that educational staff seemed to think that there the child needed 'more' variations of the same thing to generalise that skill. What it actually means is that the skill first has to be taught 1:1 explicitly with just one adult. When it is learnt it is then generalised maybe into a different environment or with a different person, and each time it is just one aspect that is different, with constant reminders of how it is both different and yet the same thing. In that way things can be remembered, learnt and generalised. But if there are just lots of variations presented to the child, they may NEVER recognise that it is the same thing or the same skill because each change makes it a totally new experience for the child.

 

That applies even to language. As the SALT put in her report "new words = new instruction", so instructions have to be kept to the same words.